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whitemeat
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 10, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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So, like many other people in the valley and other places, we sleep on the ground ALOT! No tent, no bivy, a foam pad and a sleeping bag. thats it, no protection from a slithery friend to creep in and say hi at 1AM or what ever!
I am FREAKED out of snakes, like really freaked! I HATE them and they are just not cool! I have slept on the ground in yosemite and the dessert and other areas a lot, and have been a little stressed about a snake wanting in on my body heat when its cold out.
So what I am asking my fellow supertopian's for is this, some comments that give me the confidence I really want that this is a stupid thought and snakes stay away. your own stories or just facts of, "I have been sleeping in the woods with no tent for years and never have had a problem."
Thanks folks!
O god, I hate these things!
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Aug 10, 2014 - 09:53am PT
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due to those guys and scorpions, i use a tent and the back of my truck when not forced to bivy in the woods.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:00am PT
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You been watching too many John Wayne movies. Besides, no matter how attractive you
think you are snakes just ain't gonna willingly canoodle with you. Now, scorpions, that's a
different story. They aren't gonna try and spoon with something a million times bigger but
they sure might take a liking to yer shoes. ALWAYS shake yer shoes and socks out in the
morning. And if you really want to fuel yer paranoia get a black light and check around in the
dark. Scorpions luminesce under black light. You may never bivy again.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:08am PT
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The cuddling rattlesnake (rattlesnake in the foot of your sleeping bag, blah blah) is, for the most part, a wive's tail.
The biggest danger is stepping on or near them. Evening, when they are out absorbing ground heat (like, say, on the trail) and the light is lower is the time to really keep your eyes peeled. They are very well camouflaged and, contrary to popular belief, do not often move out of your way or rattle when you approach.
Western rattlers can become a bit aggressive during the spring mating season. They won't actually come after you, but their attack radius increases a bit during that time.
Rattlers inject poison only about 30% of the time. Most bites are purely defensive. I know one guy who was bitten without being injected. He didn't even know it - he thought the snake had just latched onto his Teva until I showed him the fang marks.
I also know a guy who was bitten on the ankle and injected. Trust me, you don't want that. His entire lower leg looked like a red stove pipe.
It goes without saying - please don't kill them. We don't tear mountains down (unless they're filled with coal perhaps) because they're dangerous - same rules apply.
All that scorpion stuff is spot on. Check yer undies!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:12am PT
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When I was a kid in Texas, we were taught to shake out our shoes out every morning even in the house. I can remember driving out in west Texas with the roads absolutely crawling with tarantulas. And there was the occasional rattler or water mocassin or copperhead. My family coped by moving back to Colorado and camping above 8,000 feet. Better to be eaten by a bear or a mountain lion than a creepy crawlie was our motto.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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I grew up in Alaska and Hawaii. No snakes. Whenever I see any snake these days I get pretty excited. Only seen a couple rattlers and one of my little bucket list things to do is catch one. I should probably go out looking for em sometime. I know a lot of folks really dislike snakes. I suspect it's a genetic embedded behavior pattern.
I sure don't worry sleeping in Rattlesnake territory. But hiking around I try to keep my eyes open. Considering how few I've seen I'm probably missing em..
edit... shoes seem like a hazzard area for critters from what folks are saying.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:18am PT
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I sleep outside the tent 90% of the time. No snake issues. I was stung by a scorpion 3 years ago walking barefoot on my back deck. That was slightly less painful than a bee sting.
Chicken tastes a lot like rattle snake.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:19am PT
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climbski, please, leave the rattlers alone for the two of your sakes. It is very stressful for them.
How would you like it if Paul Bunyan picked you up by yer neck and choked you? Something like 85% of snake bites are to males 18-29 trying to pick one up. And, yes, alcohol is often involved.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:21am PT
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What are you dude? Some kind of ....
Hang on, I have to sneeze ............... {Pussy!}
Excuse me.
Base of the Captain, before we climbed Wyoming Sheep Ranch.
I've never had issues with poisonous ones at El Cap, either.
Here's my 1980's porn star look, with the moustache, which took me six months to grow. Nice long rattle on this guy.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:38am PT
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...you have an ophidiophobia
go to your local library and borrow this book:
Landscape with Reptile: Rattlesnakes in an Urban World
by Thomas Palmer
of course, this assumes you can be rational about it, which is likely very difficult.
However, this might help:
how many people do you know that just freakout, totally, irrationally, about heights... just loss control and let fear take over completely?
you must know people who cannot step up on a ladder.
And then compare that to your own relaxed attitudes... in fact, how many climbers do you know that have soloed Mungenella? I admit to doing it... and I know many who have, but I also know most have not...
OK, so you have a common human fear: of dark, of creatures, of being defenseless, and of snakes.
But you'll learn in reading that book above that there hasn't been a fatality in the Northeast part of the country from snake bite in the recorded history of european occupation, not one... yet the rattlesnake had been nearly extirpated (...look it up) by those occupants, their fears overtaking their rationality.
In the Valley, and many other places I have gone, I have probably approached many many more rattlesnakes than I have ever seen. If you think about it, rattlesnakes that are quick to be perturbed by your presence often end up dead...
I remember one quietly slithering into the rocks on the approach up to the trail on the Southeast base of El Cap, a snake, or it's family, that has probably encountered you on your approaches, though you may not have encountered them. I did not announce it to Debbie as she probably wouldn't have appreciated knowing it at that particular moment, and besides, the snake was gone before I reached it.
Debbie and I were admiring some desert plant, with a rattle seed pod, thinking that somehow in the breathless desert twilight that the rattling sound originated from the flora... only to have our eyes focus to the root of the plant and see it was from the disturbed fauna, who had been minding its own business there, only to be approached by two large mammals. It was indicating its presence respectfully... we backed off and it grouched off away from us up the trail.
If you walk with the eyes and the mind of someone looking at the world, you will find them everywhere. This may not help your particular phobia, but it is mostly true.
And learning to live in such a world is something we have to do, as those lessons have long been forgotten. We tend to kill off all such "dangerous" animals, fearing them.
Knowing that they are there, you will find them... welcome the fact that we haven't eliminated all that is wild from the wilderness.
Crotalus viridis, Western rattlesnake
spied on trailside on a hike in the "Mt. Diablo wilderness"
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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Aw dude,
You really need to get up off the ground and go climb El Cap. It's fairly snake free up there.
Except this one time on Native Son, when I reached into a crack to place a cam, and almost got bit by this big ass rattlesnake.
Or the time at the base of Tangerine Trip where I was walking along and put my hand against the wall for balance, and there was this rattler coiled up in a ball.
Or the time on Excalibur when I was reaching into the offwidths, and found a nest of snakes. Baby ones, just little guys, all kind of curling and coiling and stuff.
And be super careful around the P.O. - Sea of Dreams area. Millions of rattlesnakes there. You can hear their rattles as you're walking up the trail. They're mean and nasty, with venom dripping on their fangs as they lie in wait for you!!!111111111111
Yer gonna die!!!!!!!!!!11111111111
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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you do know where the Northeast is, don't you Ron?
it is the place where the intellectual elite of our country resides, for the most part, and is underrepresented on your list...
however, your list would seem to indicate a particular difficulty in westerners negotiating co-existence with a species whose brain size is orders of magnitude less than the humans it encounters, yet has bested them...
which would indicate the relative intellectual power of many westerners is less than that of a herpetile.
This conclusion would be consistent with my own observations. And at least the herptiles tend to be honest.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 10, 2014 - 10:56am PT
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Dude, learn to relax. The odds of getting bit are very low.
Good on you for no tent. No need for them in California unless it's going to rain. In that case I prefer a fly so I can enjoy the rainy landscape.
It's my understanding that old John Muir walked around the Sierra in a gaberdine wool jacket and slept in a big pile of leaves. Maybe a wool blanket sometimes.
Modern men are whimps. No tent men are better. (chest thump here)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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had you a different reaction, Ron, you might not have been struck at all...
but that probably would have been difficult to do, restrain your natural reaction. You are a man of action, after all.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 10, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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Relax. My professor, Dr. Ken Marion, when I got my masters in biology studied rattlesnakes out west. They were focused on migration patterns. They used an old military amory bunker that was a wintering site. They literally waded into the nest. He told me that a good pair of denim jeans are dense enough to keep the those fine little fangs from penetrating.
The thing they discovered is that when they are on the move they follow heat, not hot spots like you would generate laying on the ground, but a heat gradient based on average ground temperature.
Most of the time you are in a sleeping bag which not only keeps you warm but keeps the majority of the mass of your body from showing up as a heat source.
As a scientist I wills state that the empirical evidence of all the people you and I know who have slept on the ground and not awakened with a snake in their sleeping bag shows that it just don't happen. LOL S
Sleep well my friend.
Myrna from the long rope last year.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 10, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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A common fear is fear of loud noises.
Another is fear of the dark.
Another is FALLINg.
Bases pretty much covered. You are normal.
Speaking of loud noises,
Did you ever hear about Pete's busted hammer? Cheers, "Petie-Oh!"
[Click to View YouTube Video]Crank the vol knob! It will scare off any snakes.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 10, 2014 - 11:25am PT
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It's my understanding that old John Muir walked around the Sierra in a gaberdine wool jacket and slept in a big pile of leaves. Maybe a wool blanket sometimes.
Modern men are whimps. No tent men are better. (chest thump here)
We are from the same tribe.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 10, 2014 - 11:30am PT
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To the OP whitemeat:
The only advice I can offer is review Ed's post.. Learn what you can about the snakes in the ares that you may be going to to prepare and know what to do in the event that you should cross paths in the woods...
Snakes are not bad (they are hooked into this survival mode thing all the way), you just have to change your perspective on the fear...
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lars johansen
Trad climber
West Marin, CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 11:55am PT
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Had this critter in my woodpile last summer. Just left it alone and he/she went away after a few weeks. I was just careful walking by the area. They are good for rodent control. I have been around snakes all my life and have found the they really don't want much to do with humans.
Scorpions are another story. I was bitten by one in my pants once! Who do you think was at fault for not shaking out his pants.
lars
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 10, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
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I'm guessin' Lars J.
(I live on West Main at O St, BTW.)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 10, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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Baby snakes live in a hole , that is usually empty , and tiny too..!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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it was giving you the "snake eye"... apparently camera shy
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Aug 10, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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I have slept on the ground in yosemite and the dessert and other areas a lot,
Dessert = sweet treat after a meal.
Desert = arid and hot habitat.
Notice one has one more "s", we know that's a sweet dessert because everyone wants more sweets and less arid hot heat.
Also, the more you study things you're frightened of (like snakes) the more you'll learn that there's little to be practically feared. Don't research only negative info, research ALL of it and apply those sweet statistics you learned in math class to properly reflect risk versus fear.
Otherwise, your fears begin to sound an awful lot like Rong's posts.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
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I have been sleeping on the ground in Yosemite with no tent or bivy sack for 30 years and have never even seen a snake in the vicinity of my sleeping bag.
I have seen a handful of rattlesnakes in Yosemite while hiking. I.e. less than 5. I've seen about 5 scorpions while hiking, too.
I've seen rattlesnakes often at Lover's Leap on the descent trail from East Wall. No big deal.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
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No sleeping on trails. Thats the only place I see them.
Sleeping in the open is not a big deal in the Sierra.
More issues with ants and mice than snakes.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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I've always been more worried about rangers.
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
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Surely you can find more deserving things to hate other than snakes
What the f*#k with climbers and pictures of their feet?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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put a fake snake inside a crack climb then trick ur buddy!
almost everybody freaks out!!!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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Ok, here's one for ya:
Go ahead and just suspend your fear of snakes for a few minutes and read this.
Get the idea of having an nice adult rattlesnake as a pet in your house, no cage, just free roaming.
Now imagine:
Getting up in the morning.
Getting up in the night to go to the bathroom.
Having company over for dinner, but you can't warn them about the snake, you have to just be a good host and keep watch for them.
You'd never need coffee to wake up.
You would be alert, extroverted, very curteous, and well mannered. Your house would be very neat. And you would be aware of everything in your house all the time.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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Rattlesnakes are very cool ... You have to try to get bit by one or
just be not paying attention. Do some research , get to know about
them and I think your fear factor will lower. Even my Wife considers
it a lucky day seeing one and searches em' out.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
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In 2003, there were 43 lightning related deaths, according to NOAA.
As an active outdoorsperson (a climber, esp.), I'd be lots more worried about lightning.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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Advice to the OP:
Do NOT vacation in Costa Rica.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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They say the best defense is an offense so take notes of
how the deepfriedking cooks rattlesnake. Does a 5 star job.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
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When in very hot places scorpions will crawl into your tent seeking shade. If you set your tent up early zip it up, or else you will be shaking everything out.
The Grand Canyon has quite a few rattlers, Harvey Butchart hiked 12k miles in the canyon an documented seeing a rattler once every 40 days of hiking. He also claims to have almost been hit by a falling rock only once.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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Do NOT vacation in Costa Rica.
or Beleize
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whitemeat
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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Wow, thank you all! Very helpful!
I am now not as worried to sleep on the ground in various places!
Ed, great stuff, special thanks!
piton Pete, good pics, and ya, I am a ..... When it comes to snakes :)
Thanks again to EVERYONE!!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 11, 2014 - 10:20am PT
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Ron, that list did NOT help to reassure me, and probably didn't help the OP much either! Apogee, yours was maybe slightly more helpful, but fatal or not, any snake bite would induce what my favorite author (Bill Bryson) called "a disinclination to boogie". That's any camping/climbing trip ruined.
What really got me is the anaphylactic shock reports. That requires two separate exposures. Bad enough being bitten by a snake once, but surely that would cure anyone of the desire to pick one up again.
Go to Ireland, no snakes to worry about, but without a tent you might die of pneumonia waiting for a dry day to climb.
TE
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 11, 2014 - 10:35am PT
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Never rescue one from the cold and warm it up in your house......
R.I.P. Russell Means by the way.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 11, 2014 - 11:06am PT
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A climbing buddy of mine's brother raised large constrictors for resale. The first time I visited his house - basically one big snake zoo, I walked into a bedroom and he said "Oh, you don't want to go in there." Inside were 6 or 7 large rock pythons. "Yeah, they'll kill ya."
One python, an new arrival, had it's own enclosure in another room. "This one's really aggressive." The snake was reared up about 3 feet, and every minute or so, she'd wind up and slam against the plexiglass like a baseball bat with quite a bit of force - over, and over, and over. "She'll stop after she gets used to things."
The new snake arrived in a duffel bag (standard procedure). The second a helper opened it, it exploded like a jack in the box and latched onto his forearm, which instantly began bleeding like a stuck pig, thanks to the anti-coagulant in her saliva. She then let go, found a hole in the closet dry wall, crawled up into the wall, and began destroying it. It took 3 guys to subdue her.
He recounted a story of getting a call from the RCMP - his Canadian pal who had a similar business with poisonous snakes was apparently lying dead on his front lawn in Vancouver and the authorities suspected that there might be something in the house they really didn't want to deal with (they knew about his business). Basically, they asked him to go into the house and find it.
Sure enough, he went in with another pal and found a king cobra with free run of the place.
I'm not sure who buys these things, but I think the take away here is just get a cat already.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 11, 2014 - 11:12am PT
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just get a cat already.
Oh, yeah, and try and give it a bath and you'll wish you'd gotten the King Cobra.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 11, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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It's true, a king cobra doesn't poo in your shoe for revenge.
Any animal that can will itself into a bad case of diarrhea should command respect.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 11, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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My back yard yesterday...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Aug 11, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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Little trip down memory lane, on the first ascent of the Left Side of the Hourglass, circa 1962:
"I do recollect one funny incident on the approach when Kamps stepped on a group of baby rattlesnakes. When I called him back he told me how cute they were and he hoped he didn't injure them! We made the trip up to the Hourglass a number of times and it was always a different adventure."
Gentle man that Mr Kamps.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 11, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
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We encountered a ball of small rattlers in Icicle Creek. We gently nudged them with a stick but couldn't get even one to rattle.
I think they felt pretty secure.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Aug 11, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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The other day my belayer let out a scream and started running. She was dumping out rope so I pondered the belay chain briefly and went straight onto a bolt. She exclaimed that a bat or a snake had fallen off the route nearly onto her. It was hard to tell in her upside-down specs. She was already a little jumpy. (Her husband was recovering from a recent Rattlesnake bite.) Our friend Dave pulled a Striped Racer from the pile of rope...with a bat in it's mouth!
Dave said it reminded him of of of those Jason Bourne movies in which the shooter uses a human shield while falling.
The snake slithered off, I finished the pitch, the bat reincarnated...my belayer? After another similar encounter a couple of days latter...is considering frisbee golf.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 11, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
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^^^^
That is awesome.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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j-tree,
not all deserts are hot and arid. They just don't get much precipitation. Look at Antarctica or even the Gobi.
But back to snakes and sleeping on the ground. I once bivied behind my truck in some sand dunes. When I woke up I noticed that there were evenly intervaled S shaped tracks overlaying my truck tracks. In a few seconds I realized that a fairly large sidewinder had slithered right up to my head while I had been asleep.
I tracked it to some bushes about 200' away.
He hadn't messed with me so I showed the same courtesy.
Once Jimmy Dunn encountered a buzzworm on a small ledge in the Black so he just took a 5m fall.
If you are scared of snakes move to Iceland.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 11, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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If you are scared of snakes move to Iceland.
Bunch o' drunks there, go to Ireland.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 11, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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One of our local boys put his hand on a ledge at Tieton (lots of rattlers there), heard a buzz, and opted for the intentional whipper.
The grasshopper eventually flew away and he was able to resume climbing.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 11, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
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One of our local boys put his hand on a ledge at Tieton (lots of rattlers there), heard a buzz, and opted for the intentional whipper.
An old acquaintance in Seattle was out of gas on something on the Cookie so
he quit putting pro in and went for the ledge. Yes, the ledge was occupied
and the occupant wasn't up for sharing, or warning about his lack of camaraderie.
Jim slapped the ledge and WHAM, he was flyin'! Took a good one although
the fall didn't do much to him. It took him and his mate a long time to
self-rescue and it was hours before he got to Modesto. Back then I don't
think anti-venin even existed, at least in any sizable quantities. I saw
him a year later and it was all he could do to hold a pool cue.
ps
Tami, if I'm gonna be the straight man I expect better. ;-/
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 11, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
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I was returning from a little country bar to our roadside camp one moonless night in N Costa Rica, with my headlamp off so I could enjoy the stars. The road got rutted so I switched my headlamp on and, while doing that, looked down and did an impromptu jump to avoid a coral snake I was about to step on.
The thing never broke it's stride.
Coral snakes aren't very aggressive but they do pack cobra venom which I would expect they'd generously share if stepped on.
We'd been warned to be really careful at night and you know? I really took that to heart from that moment forward.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 11, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Reilly...I thought you were married..? rj
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 12, 2014 - 12:54am PT
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Go to Ireland, no snakes to worry about, but without a tent you might die of pneumonia waiting for a dry day to climb.
Not true, there are plenty of snakes in Ireland. Some have unusual names, like Denny O’Brienisi, or M Lowrousy, or Enema Kenny, or Seannie Quinnis, or Seannie Fitzpaddy, or the rockstar turned saint, Boner
Most of these snakes can be found under the rocks they slither from, but more likely places are the Dáil, banks, development companies, or even the higher echelons of civil services and government.
And the only tents they will be found in are the corporate hospitality tents at events like the Galway Races.
Be wary of these snakes, they are mean and vicious, and their bite is worse if the victim is a working or middle class person.
And real Irish climbers do not need tents in the cold pissing rain. A pub will do. (But then see below)
EDIT
And what is Ireland famous for ?
Tami, that's not fair. In the EU countries like the Czech Republic, Finland and the Baltic nations have a much higher problem of alcoholism, but yes binge drinking by Irish youngsters is a concern. Any different in Canada or the US?
ANOTHER EDIT
Tvash, I had to google Tieton. That place looks like real fun climbing. However, my late father being a Washingtonian and I have loads of relatives in Washington. I understand that the eastern part of the state has loads of rattlers.
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