Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
crazyfingers
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 30, 2006 - 06:20pm PT
|
I'm planning to climb the Regular Northwest Face route in a day. I've done a good deal of research online, but some questions remain. I plan on freeing as much as possible and aiding whenever it is faster. I'm very comfortable with leading 5.9 trad.
Q1-How many 60m ropes should I bring to either fix the first pitches or take on the route? Is it reasonable to drop coiled ropes after jugging them (for later pickup)?
Q2-Would it be a good idea to have cam hooks for aiding?
Q3-I've read advice saying to bring stoppers, not to bring stoppers, to bring wires, not to, BD Camalot #5/#4 not needed. If you've done this route before, what gear was needed/worked best?
Q4-If you've done the route in a day, what were the biggest time wasters and time savers for you?
Any other helpful advice is much appreciated.
|
|
bobmarley
Trad climber
auburn, california
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2006 - 06:34pm PT
|
Q1: we just brought 1 70m, which is great for linking pitches and gives you more rope in case you have to bail. 2 ropes will be slow.
Q2: we didn't bring any hooks. full set of nuts and a couple small cams sufficed. keep in mind the zig zags (all the rest of the route) have ALOT of fixed iron and mank.
Q3: we brought a minimal, yet totally ample, rack: doubles starting at blue metolius up to #2 BD, then just 1 #3 BD. no big cams. also, double set of nuts.
Q4: time savers were 1 rope, NOT bivying at the base (just hike up the death slabs at 2am or so and go for it), minimal rack, lead in 2 blocks. time wasters: we brought 2 ascenders, but i think you could get by with 1 ascender and gri-gri. there's not a huge amount of jugging.
|
|
handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2006 - 06:56pm PT
|
Fix-n-Fire is not the same as In-A-Day.
Now for the helpful stuff:
The Death Slabs are more dangerous than ever since the rockfall earlier this summer. I believe the NPS is recommending you avoid this approach.
Learn and use short-fixing on the first six pitches, they all have bomber two-bolt anchors.
Simul-climb the 4th class section in the middle.
Do the Zig-Zags in two pitches instead of 3.
Rack: Doubles from Red C3 to BD #3
No need for nuts, the Zig-Zags are FULLY fixed.
|
|
crazyfingers
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
|
"Fix-n-Fire is not the same as In-A-Day."
Point taken.
When short fixing, are you self belaying with a GriGri or some other method?
What knot/setup is best for short fixing the rope at the anchor?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2006 - 07:54pm PT
|
if you are calling yourself a 5.9 leader, you definately need one #3 and one #3-1/2 cam (old style- grey cam), plus doubles of everything else (maybe triples in the finger sizes if you are not even leading 5.10 on gear). bring 10-12 2' slings and 8-10 QD's.
you don't need any nuts at all, seriously..
link the chimneys into one long pitch, clipping all fixed gear w/ long slings and walking (but back cleaning) additional gear. you can leave small tcu's next to all the pitons if you want additional mental security. you can do this w/ a 70m or simul climbing ~15' w/ a 60m.
leave gear w/ slings in all the cruxes so the 2nd can yard on the sling and yard on the cam and be through the crux quickly.
decide early on that you are going to pull on gear when it's the fastest thing to do (it took me 1/3 of the route to get used to the idea and it may have cost some time).
don't fix lines, just carry one rope.
make sure you are responsible up at the base wrt food storage in a bear canister.
EDIT-
learning to self belay on this route will not make you faster, and besides that, it only makes sense if the 2nd is jugging. the 2nd ought to jug only the pitches you straigt up aid climb.
|
|
Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2006 - 11:56pm PT
|
I found a small BD micronut #3 or so to be very beneficial piece on the pitch after Thank God ledge. Other than that, I agree you probably could get away without using nuts. Me and my bro did it with one 60m which is nice and you can still combine alot of pitches. Be careful on the Robbins traverse to lower out on enough slack before you start ascending as the second so you won't penji to far. Tons of fixed gear makes this route go extra fast. Have fun and Cheers! AK
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 12:22am PT
|
If you are a 5.9 leader you will not be able to do it in a day.
Juan
|
|
Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 11:37am PT
|
Ask yourself if you have done enough long climbs fast enough to want to try this. For instance, you should be able to climb East Buttress of Middle followed by NE Buttress of higher in a day without feeling wasted or coming down at midnight. If you are not solid on 5.10 lead, Half Dome is going to be a workout.
The above advice seems about right. I’d skip the bigger cams, but maybe take a few smaller stoppers. Use lots of runners.
The chimneys can slow you down. Make sure you have done enough to be able to keep up your speed. We were a bit slow on the zigzags since we don’t aid much.
Simul-climbing and linking pitches saved a lot of time. As did climbing in blocks.
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
|
Q1 I would bring a single rope. There tends to be a lot of activity at the base. I wouldn't really advise dropping ropes.
Q2 Skip the cam hooks.
Q3 Do you need nuts? No. However... I only had a double set of cams and was afraid to leave cams behind on the zig zags in case I needed the same piece twice in a row. Yes, there is a "ton" of fixed gear on the zig zags. However, it was reasuring to leave a couple of my own stoppers instead of totally relying on the mank that was there. A half dozen stoppers from small to medium is pretty light.
Q4 Lead in blocks and simul climbing the middle was the biggest time savers. My partner was slow trying to jug the zig zags with a couple of ropemans (didn't help that he cleaned two "fixed" stoppers). Starting three hours after it got light and getting caught by darkness at Thank God ledge were the biggest time killers.
Don't try to short fix. On aid routes this can save time, but I can't see how somebody (especially somebody who hasn't already done a lot of short fixing) could save time on ~5.9 pitches.
I've heard of "5.9 leaders" doing it in a day. But you will have to be a fast 5.9 leader. Know how to yard through. Have your anchor building/belay/transitions/blocks etc dialed. Be fast enough on chimneys and aid climbing.
The sun hits the face around 2:00 pm. Ideally, try to climb so that the moon is in the "2:00pm" position around sun set. This is a little before the full moon. Moonlight shining directly on the face makes a huge difference (a full moon that is not yet shining on the face helps, but not near as much). Carrying a real headlamp (and a spare) and keep climbing.
If you really think you are good enough to climb it in a day, then I would save the weight and only take 1 or 2 blue camalots and nothing bigger.
|
|
Texplorer
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
|
Good information so far
-no nuts necessary
-being a solid VALLEY 5.9 leader will suffice (although the climbing is easy 5.9 by valley standards)
-one rope
-Its getting chilly in the valley, bring a jacket now
-agree with the 2:00am start
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 04:48pm PT
|
I was solid on 5.11, leading every pitch I was only able to get to the top of Sandy in a day. From the ground it looks more like a Taqhuitz route more than a Big Wall.
Juan
|
|
Texplorer
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 04:54pm PT
|
How many bong hits on your way to big sandy?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 04:58pm PT
|
Juan... please.. .the lies must stop "I was solid on 5.11"
bwhahahahaha!
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2006 - 05:02pm PT
|
jeff-
guess that just goes to show ya that gym grades don't transfer well (?)
=)
no doubt that swinging leads or trading bloks makes it all go easier.
or maybe you are soft and don't know it...
want some advice on yer sleeping bag selection or nail polish color?
|
|
Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
|
|
I heard that you can climb half Dome 30% faster if you switch to black nail polish.
*
Anyway, now that you have heard all the advise, the most important thing is to train to move fast. The climb is more long than hard.
|
|
crazyfingers
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
|
Thanks for all the advice.
I'm surprised to hear advice against short-fixing on the free pitches. Why wouldn't you want the second to jug as many pitches as possible? If the leader can start the next pitch before the second arrives at the belay, this would be almost as efficient as simul-climbing.
Of course, you'd need an extra line for bringing up the freshly cleaned gear.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
I haven't done this route yet, but I know...
RE short fixing:
#1 - selfbelaying on 5.9 free climbing can be hard and scary..and slow.
#2 - jugging can be harder, more tireing and slower then free climbing on easy terrain < then 5.9-5.10...especially if you are a nOOb aid climber. this is because juggers have the tendency to use their arms alot more then their legs.
I would try to link pitches and simo-climb whenver possible, taking care to place a lot more pro when simo-climbing.
|
|
GoMZ
Trad climber
Paradise
|
|
OK here is some advise from a not so solid 5.10 leader, dialed with easy to moderate aid done some walls incuding a few grade v's in a day, weekend warrior who happens to have done rnwf of half dome in a day. We did this route in 4 or 5 blocks I don't remember. We did fix every pitch for the second + did some short fixing (mainly just to clear the belay) used a short thin tag line for the gear 30 feet or so. Took 1 rope, 60 seemed fine. Rack, definitly didn't take #4 camalot and only doubles on most cams I personally would take a few nuts. They don't weigh much. We did quite a bit of training before we attempted this including some longer link ups in the valley, but you don't have to be a super great free climber to sucede on this route you mainly need to be dialed in your systems and be confident in your partner. We were able to do the route in about 15 hours. I know that isn't that fast but it was our first time on the route and just getting to the top made me happy. So just make sure your dialed if you think you're ready get an early start and go for it. If you think you can do it you probably can. Good Luck have fun.
Steve
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
betchya you can climb 50+m of 5.8 on TR quite a bit faster than you can jug it
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
I dunno, 2 sets of jugs sounds like the worst advice yet. You want a grigri for the second in the middle pitches so that you can simulclimb. Add a ropeman and you have a second set of ascenders, ghetto style. I would personally assess the strengths of your team to determine if you want to fix or you want to free. While seconding is sometimes faster, it can also be alot more work for both partners, as the leader has to belay so doesn't get as much rest. Shortfixing works great if you have your systems dialed, otherwise it can slow you down. If you and your partner are mostly free climbers, go free style and go as light as possible. If you are wall climbers then fix and jug.
If you are good at pulling on gear you can make it to the Robbins traverse before breaking out the aiders. Try to free as much of the pitch after the traverse as possible as it is tricky aid. Make sure to take the "airy 5.7 chimney" vs the deeper 5.9 squeeze, there are tons of fixed pins on the 5.7 variation. The double cracks pitch is the only pitch where a #4 friend might be wanted by a 5.9 leader. If you are confident with liebacking then skip the bigger piece. Oh yea, and the direct finish above the final bolt ladder seemed faster than the finish with the downward traverse left.
You want to be on Big Sandy before it is dark, you might have a hard time finding the zig zags in the dark as there are several splitter crack systems between the double cracks and the zig zags. Emergency space bags and chemical hand warmers make forced bivys MUCH more enjoyable.
Good luck and have fun!
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
crazyfingers,
your job is to now sift through all of this, dump some of the advice you deem unworthy and go fire that thing. Thats right, I been stuck behind a PC for 24 of the last 48 hours and am tired of all this bater. Lets see sum action man! And then report back with a few pics on how it went.
My own experience at attempting it in a day was about 20 years ago and unfortunately we got stormed off the thing after several pitches. Back then it was not as well known to fire it in a day and I was a solid 5.11 leader. So excuse me if I have a teeny weeny thread of doubt about a 5.9 leader doin it in a day. Kill the doubt! Go do it dude!
Now another bater question for you guys (sorry). Can you retreat off the thing safely with one 60meter rope without leaving a bunch of gear. There is a fine line between going for it and requiring rescue because you were doing it in a day and didnt bring a second rope. Food for thought. First time I tried the NIAD we found ourselves rapping off from the Great Roof. You aint gonna retreat from there with one rope.
Be responsible, be worthy have fun...
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
"I'm surprised to hear advice against short-fixing on the free pitches. Why wouldn't you want the second to jug as many pitches as possible? If the leader can start the next pitch before the second arrives at the belay, this would be almost as efficient as simul-climbing."
If you are climbing hard aid, the leader can, with practice, safely self-belay (short-fix) almost as fast as with a normal belay. On hard aid, progress is slow, so after ~15 minutes of short fixing (while your second jugs and cleans), you won't have covered much physical distance before your second makes it to the belay. But 15 minutes of progress is 15 minutes saved.
On a 5.9 free pitch, if you short-fix in full on aid mode, you will still only cover a short distance that could have been very quickly free climbed once your belayer made it to the anchor (so your 15 minutes of aid may only save literally a minute or two of free climbing). But isn't a short distance better than nothing? Not necessarily because you lose time trying to get the gear that was cleaned by the second back up to the leader. Self-belaying while free climbing is trickier to do quickly and safely and if you make it a greater distance it makes it that much more tricky (and time consuming) to get the rack back to the leader. For halfdome in a day, you aren't going to have much of a rack to short fix with either.
If you don't have short fixing already dialed, I think you would be better off ignoring it. Not that there is anything wrong with the leader trying to get in a piece or two above the anchor and then coming back down to the belay. Furthermore, if your second isn't used to jugging, they would probably be able to climb most pitches more quickly and with less effort than jugging.
But if you think short fixing can save time, try it out ahead of time. Trying a new system for the first time on your route-in-a-day attempt is a recipe for failure.
Good luck.
|
|
crazyazid
climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Do you really need two sets of cams if you bring a full set of hexes? So one set of cams, one set of hexes and no nuts or two sets of cams and no nuts?
|
|
handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
|
|
Passive protection is too slow to be used for a In-A-Day attempt.
2 sets of cams. No nuts, no hexes.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
Raise your hand if you think hexes go in faster than cams.
|
|
Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
Good tread. Please share your experience attempting HD in the day . Success / fail all interesting.
Please mention of your level of free climbing too.
My friend and me decided to try it this year - we are planning to french free /aid everything harder than 5.10
crazyfingers - since you started this tread in 2006 - did you climbed it? How it was?
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
I'd seriously consider getting the free climbing skills up, you'll have more fun. 5.9 Valley leader is pushing it, you have energy and ambition, upping your free climbing shouldn't take long. If you have to fix pitches you shouldn't be there.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
kick ass Alexey
fire it!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Half Dome in a Day is pretty much defacto standard now a days.
If you haul bivy gear and bivy on the on the route now a days you're considered way out of it.
Most people now a days whip the route off in a few hours.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Not if they lead 5.9 Werner.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
There's the Valley LEO rangers now a days who drive around in their cars all week and then run up to Half dome on their day off and do it in a day easily.
They do the Nose in a day on their day off too .....
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
I would recommend starting at first light, not three hours after first light like I did. And even with a first light start, I would recommend a good head lamp plus a micro headlamp spare.
I was more than a 5.9 leader when I first did it, but I still happily yarded through a lot of 5.10 moves. But if you break the aiders out on all those pitches, doing it in a day will be tough.
Make sure you can keep the upward progress at a reasonable rate through the aid climbing and chimneys. Have belay changeovers well dialed and then all you pretty much need is endurance (and enough water).
And despite some comments from grouchy old wise men, there are still plenty of multi-day parties on it.
|
|
Jordan Ramey
Big Wall climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
Hey August. I like that your advice from three years ago is still a point for you ;)
|
|
GoMZ
Trad climber
Eastern Sierra
|
|
The first time we tried it we planned on one bivy on the route. We got to the top of the sixth pitch and had been passed by 3 parties already (it happened to be a day when several valley hardmen were just out for a leasurly stroll on the route). Needless to say we were a bit discouraged and decided to go down. I remember while rapping down I shared a belay with yet a fourth party. This guy and his partner were going up to "work the free climbing a bit". He did give me some encouragement though when he said, "Hey man don't be bummed if you weren't haauling that bag you guys could do it in a day."
Well we trained hard and did several link ups in the valley and high country learning to lead in blocks and increasing our endurance and suffering threshold. The next season we did the route in 15 1/2 hours. I know it is no record and probably slow by modern standards but it is one of my proudest climbing accomplishments. If that anonymous guy at the belay had not said those encouraging words to me I probably wouldn't have gone back.
BTW-it is a good idea if at least one person in your party is a solid valley 5.10 climber but if you are fast at easy aid I imagine being solid on 5.9 would work also. Have fun, and remember if an out of shape weekend wannabe warrior like myself can do it so can you:)
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
A 5.9 climber who can do 5.9 on the first few pitches of a climb will be struggling to do 5.9 after 10 or 12 pitches. If you are a only (sic) 5.9 climber then you might be whipped by the time you get into hour number ten of any "_ in a day" attempt.
So, did this boy ever succeed?
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
My partner and I were slow 5.9 leaders 10 years ago and did it in a day.
Hiked up from Mirror lake at sunset, rested at base till midnight, finished at 8pm.
Staggered down and slept in both stalls of the outhouse at Nevada Falls till the first hikers arrived. The wake up call was the scream from the women who opened the door.
Good times.
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
Hey August. I like that your advice from three years ago is still a point for you ;)
Crap, didn't even see that. I guess I will take it as a good sign that I'm not changing my stories in old age...
|
|
| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!