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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 27, 2014 - 05:04am PT
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Chaz posted Back in those days, the concept of "doing time" as a punishment hadn't yet been conceived. Prisons were used to hold someone until trial, or flogging, or execution, not as the punishment itself.
Which days were these? Which country? Which ruler? Punishment has been a varied thing based on time and cultures for forever. The Brits that you seem to be referring to happily tossed people into the holds of ships for long periods of times and then charged you money for the privilege. This practice is actually on the rebound in the States.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 31, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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Assuming the 4% is correct ---this is hardly a reason to frustrate the law .
Long ago, as a schoolboy in super conservative Southern Indiana, I was taught that the basis of our system of justice was that it was better for a guilty man to go free, than for an innocent man to be punished.
Methinks Ward might change his tune were he to be one of the 4%.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
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The Founding Fathers understood that was an important principle because they had seen so much injustice under King George.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 31, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
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There are people like Ward who are slaves to black and white thinking and for them, the "law" becomes a kind of absolute. Anyone thwarting said law in any way is "laughable." But the truth is, the law, no matter how just or otherwise, is merely a concept, and putting a human being down is something most people don't want on their conscience. The grievious crimes he may or may not have committed, and all the reasons for his death penality, don't particularly factor into people's aversion to execuing a human being.
These issues are complicated by virtue of the conflicting feelings and doubts and so forth. That's called being a human being. We can simplify killing each other only by dehumanizing ourselves and heaping virtue on "following the law." It makes the issue black and white, but it tends to make zombies out of us in the bargain, zombies hell bent on being "right," but with no connection to anything but concepts and laws.
JL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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The main point underlying John's comments above is the imperfection built into almost any law. Was it right for the "government" in Salem to execute both men and women for the heinous crime of Witchcraft? That was based on superstition, ignorance, and in may cases the misunderstood mental illnesses of those thought to be witches.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I just wonder about the "bedside manner" of those carrying out executions by lethal injection? Hi, I'm Dr. Death, and I'm here to help you out of this world?
So far we've discussed Lethal Injections, Firing Squad, Hanging, but little said about the good ol' Electric Chair or the Gas Chamber.
George Westinghouse invented the Electric Chair to demonstrate to the general public the dangers associated with direct current being promoted by Thomas Edison. Probably one of the more gruesome means of killing another individual, I might add. The Rosenbergs were executed for delivering nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union using "the chair." The execution of Julius Rosenberg was also botched, since the first "jolt" didn't kill him. So...they turned up the current and left him dead but "extra crispy." The Gas Chamber isn't particularly "humane," either. Death by Cyanosis isn't very pretty, and leaves the body discolored.
If it HAS to be done, the Firing Squad is probably the way to do in, since the guillotine isn't generally available in this country, and is also surrounded by other legal issues.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
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overwatch
climber
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Just wonder what you would all think if someone in your family or someone you loved were murdered? No speculators either, only really interested in those with the actual experience to make an informed opinion. otherwise it carries no weight with me not that it matters I'm sure
Let us assume for the sake of argument that the actual perpetrator is up for the chop. They were apprehended fleeing the scene with your mom's blood all over them.
I am one of those and I will give you two guesses where I stand and you won't need the second one.
Edit:
I am with you there, bubbles, but in my case the murderer was never caught
And probably none of the "founders" had it happen to them either.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Damn Founders.
AMENDMENT VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Brokendownclimber posted If it HAS to be done
It doesn't have to be done.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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I'm not in favor of either, but lacking in this discussion of the Death Penalty, is Abortion. Is there any correlation of standpoint in these two issues? I'm lucky because I am not in favor of either, and can claim immunity to any feeling of guilt from a conflicting position on them. Death penalty and abortion are seemingly unrelated; or are they?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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To clarify my statement above: "If it HAS to be done..." I'm referring to a case wherein the party has been adjudged guilty and the death penalty is the sentence. Not a philosophical concept.
In response to TMJesse: That's a difficult philosophical position for a Liberal or Conservative to be in. Many Liberals decry the Death Penalty but support "Choice." Many Conservatives support the DP, but are extremely anti-abortion. But to carry this through one step further, the unborn has committed no crime and is totally innocent; on the other hand the criminal has trespassed on the mores of society and has probably taken another innocent life.
My concern with the DP is based on the imperfect legal system and application of the lethal option to a person possibly innocent of the crime of which accused.
Maybe a better option is the European style Penal Colony in the South Atlantic? It certainly doesn't coddle the prisoner in a cozy cell with food and entertainment available. Devil's Island comes to mind...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Brokendown posted To clarify my statement above: "If it HAS to be done..." I'm referring to a case wherein the party has been adjudged guilty and the death penalty is the sentence.
Me too. Law is not some unstoppable inertial force that we can only give ourselves over to the inevitability of.
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Mark Not-circlehead
climber
Martinez, CA
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Botched...????? The dudes dead now, right? Botched to me would mean he survived....
And I feel the only people deserving of the right to judge whether capital punishment is ethical or not, are the victims and families of victim of the perpetrator.
Some people should not be allowed exist, after certain crimes or behaviors. And their method of death, is relatively unimportant to me.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Botched...????? The dudes dead now, right? Botched to me would mean he survived....
That's like saying a climber takes a fall and breaks a leg on a route. The rescuers haul him up to the top, and you want to credit him with a successful ascent.
What we are talking about is doing something the way that it was supposed to be done, and advertised to be done.
I tell you I'm going to fix your messed up water line in two days. I do it in 2 years. What's your complaint? The water line is fixed.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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After considerable thought: the Lethal Injection business must make the executioner "feel better" than he/she would after chopping off the head of the subject. It really is attempt to hide what is being done behind a veil of pseudo compassion. There is no moral superiority gained through this pseudoscientific method of dispatch. That's just my intellectual observation.
If there were absolutely NO DOUBT, Nada, zero, that the person being executed is guilty, I have no reservation in execution. But if the real reason is revenge, clinical death is simply too easy a fate for a brutal murderer. Hangings were public spectacles, as were beheadings with Guillotine, and were used as a deterrent to asocial behavior.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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After considerable thought: the Lethal Injection business must make the executioner "feel better" than he/she would after chopping off the head of the subject. It really is attempt to hide what is being done behind a veil of pseudo compassion. There is no moral superiority gained through this pseudoscientific method of dispatch. That's just my intellectual observation.
I think that's true
If there were absolutely NO DOUBT, Nada, zero, that the person being executed is guilty, I have no reservation in execution. But if the real reason is revenge, clinical death is simply too easy a fate for a brutal murderer. Hangings were public spectacles, as were beheadings with Guillotine, and were used as a deterrent to asocial behavior.
I think that's false.
Think about it: in the setting in which we most commonly think of using the Guillotine, France, are you saying the use worked so well as a deterrent, that it was never used on anyone?
They cut off your hand in Saudi Arabia if you steal. Do you really think there is no theft in Saudi Arabia?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Ken-
The excuse behind these beheadings or chopping off of hands: It seemed to be a good idea at the time.
The original use of the Guillotine was simply elimination of the aristocratic class.
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