Making a new hammer

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Messages 1 - 39 of total 39 in this topic

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 21, 2014 - 05:16pm PT

I can tell everybody got bored with the hammer efficiency thread. No surprise. It is probably only of interest to people who hand drill a fair number of bolts and there probably isn't very many of us.

Based on the results of my tests (summarized in this post: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2435668&msg=2447140#msg2447140) I have made a hammer to see if I can better the McDevitt. It is hard to shake the belief that heavier is better so I made mine a little bit heavier than the McDevitt.

I bought some square 1-1/4" bar stock which was said to be 4140/4142. When you buy small amounts, you don't get much control over specifications but I was told it was supplied Rockwell B90 and can be hardened to C60. I don't have access to a milling machine right now so I simply drilled holes in it with a drill press and cut it to shape in a horizontal bandsaw. It didn't come out pretty but I think it came out just fine. I couldn't make the curved cut on the McDevitt so I made a straight ones and changed the dimensions a bit so the biner hole would work. Without a mill I couldn't make the oval hole for the handle and settled for a round one.

After cutting and drilling, I needed to harden the steel so I set up my big propane torch and heated it to about the right color for 45 minutes.

I then quenched it in the oil I had on hand - used motor oil from my car. Not the best oil to use but it seemed to work.

After cooling, it looked pretty good.

I then needed to temper it at about 600 degrees F. So I stole the toaster oven from the kitchen, hot wired it and ran it through a cheap ($25 on Ebay) PID temperature controller. The little oven had a hard time getting up to temperature since it isn't insulated. Not having any rock wool, I had to use a lot of aluminum foil to insulate it before it would get to temperature. After 2 hours, much nervous hand wringing and some impressive (and no doubt toxic) smoke as the paint burned off the oven, it was done. The toaster oven is pretty much done too.

I wanted to check hardness but don't have a Rockwell tester so I placed a ball bearing between the side of the McD hammer and the side of my hammer and hit it a good whack with a third hammer. Looking at the diameter of the dent, I think mine is close to the McD hardness but perhaps a tiny bit softer.

I got a $6 handle from Ace Hardware and turned the end of it down to round on the lathe. I put the handle in the hole but didn't quite get it square - because of which it is now a right handed hammer. I drove a nail through the head and handle in place of the spring pin in the McD and pounded the ends of the nail like a rivet.

NA_Kid

Big Wall climber

The Bear State

Jul 21, 2014 - 05:18pm PT

WOW! Impressive.

wilbeer

Mountain climber

Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,

Jul 21, 2014 - 05:22pm PT

Nice Job.

goatboy smellz

climber

लघिमा

Jul 21, 2014 - 05:39pm PT

Neat!

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 05:41pm PT

Next was to try it out. Using a freshly sharpened bit, I spent exactly 5 minutes pounding and managed to go 1.82 inches. The hammer feels good and swings well but I could tell it was heavy and had to pace myself.

McDevitt hammer 26.2 ounces
Banquo hammer 28.1 ounces.

It drilled pretty fast but not as fast as the Mcdevitt. The plot below shows drilling speed for all the hammers I have tested. Results are normalized to new unsharpened bits. The actual results with sharpened bits are faster. I think I discussed this in the earlier thread.

The next and slightly smaller hammer head is being tempered as I type this. Stay tuned for results.

MisterE

climber

Jul 21, 2014 - 05:58pm PT

Very cool experimentation Banquo!

Edge

Trad climber

Boulder, CO

Jul 21, 2014 - 06:01pm PT

This is all fascinating, TFPU!

WBraun

climber

Jul 21, 2014 - 06:19pm PT

LOL

Banquo redneck engineering at it's finest.

Awesome!!!!

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 07:58pm PT

Oh boy, I bet the wife will be pissed! ;-)

Nah, she's fine, got a new toaster oven and I'm in the garage and out of her hair.

I'm thinking "Banquo Hammer" is too stodgy. Since my name is Dan Merrick, I'm thinking of calling it a DAMMERR.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO

Jul 21, 2014 - 08:16pm PT

Banquo,

Interesting! What I would still like to see is the drilling efficiency of one of the old Chouinard forged hammers versus one of the newer cast ones to see if Deuce's theory is correct about forged vs cast hammer heads.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 08:34pm PT

bhilden,

I'd like to try one of the old forged Chouinard hammers as well as a new BD one. I'd also like to try an A5/D5. It only takes 5 minutes to test a hammer - if I have the hammer.

Maybe somebody would like to trade for a DAMMERR.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO

Jul 21, 2014 - 08:55pm PT

Banquo,

I am in Mountain View, but can come down to Morgan Hill with my mid-70's Chouinard hammer for you to try out. I will send you a PM when I am available.

couchmaster

climber

Jul 22, 2014 - 06:01am PT

Wow, impressive drive and determination. Thanks for sharing that! Awesome to see it unfold. You make it look so easy.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 06:26am PT

DMT -

My dad was an engineer, my big brother is an engineer, I'm an engineer, even my wife is an engineer but none of us have anything to do with Merrick Engineering.

As professor Zsutty used to say "I are a engineer!"

cragnshag

Social climber

san joser

Jul 22, 2014 - 06:35am PT

You must have a stack of slightly used SDS drill bits by now. I'll trade you one canned beer per bit. If you sharpen the carbide tip I'll upgrade you to bottled beer.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 08:09am PT

cragnshag,

You need to come over and try out the hammers so we can make one that is perfect for you.

Studly

Trad climber

Jul 22, 2014 - 08:17am PT

Nice work!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

Nothing creative to say

Jul 22, 2014 - 08:58am PT

One of the best threads going on the taco stand.

Banqmer?
Bammer?
The metal head of power?

I fricking love the modded toaster. Something very meth-cooky about it, but in a hammer loving way. LOL :)

Blakey

Trad climber

Sierra Vista

Jul 22, 2014 - 09:52am PT

Climbing related engineering coolness!

We need more of this on the Taco and less of the polluting bollox that causes so much hurt.

I wish I could do such stuff, but putting a picture up is my engineering limit!

Steve

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 22, 2014 - 10:23am PT

fun thread

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 11:53am PT

I have finished up the second hammer. Since heavier didn't work, I went lighter. Although the torch and toaster oven were fun, the torch didn't heat evenly or accurately while the oven wasn't going to last.

I bought a benchtop kiln on Craigslist and hooked it up to the temperature controller. This is becoming a very expensive hammer.

2nd hammer "DAMMERR" 24.1 Oz
1st hammer 28.1 Oz
McDevitt 26.2 Oz
Chouinard 25.2 Oz

The second hammer went 2.3 inches in 5 minutes, the fastest hammer so far. Even faster than the McDevitt.

Edit: I think this hammer was faster because it wasn't as tiring to swing.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 22, 2014 - 12:08pm PT

Nice work, Dan.

I'm climbing with cragnshag this coming weekend, so I could drop off my
old (1975) Yosemite hammer at your house (Thursday night or Friday night) if you want to test it.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 01:02pm PT

Clint-

Thanks but Mucci just dropped off a bunch of hammers including an old Chouinard, a D5 and Bridwell's monster hammer. I've got all the hammers I can work with for now.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2014 - 06:20pm PT

Made another hammer today. Target is a gross weight of 23 ounces.

WBraun

climber

Jul 26, 2014 - 06:36pm PT

This has become the "Pinnacle of Hammerdom" ....

:-)

John M

climber

Jul 26, 2014 - 07:32pm PT

cool thread.

Please post a pic of all hammers when you get a chance.

Is the length of the handle part of what is allowing more power for faster drilling?

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2014 - 10:10pm PT

Werner, There's something satisfying about hammers; they are the fundamental and original tool. "Within every tool there is a hammer."

John M, I think most of the hammers are in the photo below which is from the other thread linked below.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2435668

goatboy smellz

climber

लघिमा

Jul 27, 2014 - 08:10am PT

Edit: I think this hammer was faster because it wasn't as tiring to swing

There is a study out there done with framing hammers that showed the best performance was a balance between the weight of the hammer head along with the damping characteristics of the handle. Too big a head is tiring and to small and not enough force to drive the nail home.

The final results showed a heavy head can work but the handle needed to have a reverse tuning fork design which reduces harmful vibrations in the handle and allows for stronger swings.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO

Jul 27, 2014 - 09:50am PT

I think this principle may also apply to the drill holder. One of the things I didn't like about the Hurricane holder is that there was a lot of kick back when I stuck it with the hammer. There was not much kick back with the Petzl RockPec, maybe because the drill bit floats in the holder.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2014 - 10:54am PT

There is a study out there

Perhaps you refer to the 1954 article in the Journal of Applied Psychology:
"The Effect of Hammer Size on Efficiency in the Task of Nailing"
They tested claw hammers from 7 to 16 ounces and rip hammer of 16 and 20 ounces. They tested various sizes of finish and common nails. They found that heavier hammers drove nails faster except that small nails were bent by heavy hammers slowing things down because the pounder had to pause to straighten the nail. They didn't test endurance.

In the 1980's there were several papers published in Human Factors: The Journal of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society. (I'm a member of the HFES). In these they tested curved handles and found them to be beneficial which they may be for drilling hammers as well. They also looked at fatigue and wall hammering as opposed to bench hammering. They did not look at hammer weight variation. They found that wall hammering is more tiring and resulted in a 1/3 reduction in striking force.

I have been tempted to try a bent handle for drilling.

Roger Brown

climber

Oceano, California

Jul 27, 2014 - 12:23pm PT

Dan,
This is a great thread. Do you think your drilling speed is getting faster simply because you are drilling so many holes? For me, early season my swing is a little rough, the transfer of power from the hammer to the drill tip seems off, my arm and grip feels weak, and I just don't feel "in the groove". By late season everything is good again. In fact, by late season it easy to destroy a bit half way thru the first hole. What I am getting at is that it may not be the hammer or the drill, but the control that decides the outcome. Lately I have tried pushing the bit tight against the bottom of the hole, really tight and using a lighter hammer. Same result as not pushing down and using a heavy hammer. The drill tip can only take so much force. I find that if I hold the drill holder loose, I get a bounce back that is a little scary. In fact last week that bounce back got me. Right on the nose, and that hurt. No blood but my eyes did a bit of watering:-) I guess for me the A-5 hammer, wilderness drill, SDS bit, keeping the bit at bottom of the hole, and a firm grip is the ticket.
The only bolt I ever place are the 5-Piece that Greg supplies me with. Those seem to be perfect for hand drilled holes. The problem I run into is by late season the holes are getting so tight, and the bolt starts going in so hard, I fear that I will damage it. I carry a extra holder with a fresh bit to ream the holes out so I can get 2-3 full turns before torque is reached and that solves that issue. Power drilling produces such a tight, perfect hole, I wonder how they deal with the issue? Maybe another thread is in order because they probably don't have much interest in how fast us folks from the "Dark Ages" place bolts:-)
Oh yea, that extra holder is the one you made and gave me last season.

Banquo

climber

Amerricka

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2014 - 03:49pm PT

Roger,

My data certainly has variables that I am not controlling and I would advise all to take it with a grain of salt. For example, when I use sharpened bits, they are not all exactly the same since I grind them by hand on the grinding wheel. From day to day, my ability to sustain pounding as well as make an efficient swing certainly varies. I try to stand in about the same position but there is of course variation in body position. How solidly my block of granite is supported on the work bench might vary also.

Sometimes the bit shatters during a test so I get a new one and start a new test. I may not rest enough between the two and I know that slows things down.

Some of the tests I did bare handed but I got blisters so some are with taped hands and some with a glove. I don't know if there is a difference but there might be.

I think that all I can conclude from my tests is that a hammer with a gross weight of about 25 ounces is about right for me. For somebody else, bigger or smaller might be better. My real purpose in doing all these tests was to figure out what weight hammer to make and I think I've figured that out.

I have wrecked a lot of bits doing these tests and am averaging something like two or three tests per bit. The faster I drill, the more likely I am to shatter a bit. I am drilling as fast as I can and I don't usually do this in the field where bits tend to last longer.

Anyway, to answer your question, I think I am drilling slower as time goes by. I did some tests yesterday and today that seem unreasonably slow.

I am glad you are getting some use out of the drill holder.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Jul 27, 2014 - 08:33pm PT

Paging Steve Grossman, please come to the white paging telephone.

We kneed to see your hammers. . .

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Jul 28, 2014 - 07:42pm PT

Bump for hammer porn.

Majid_S

Mountain climber

Karkoekstan

Jul 28, 2014 - 09:03pm PT

werner

rewire that oven will you

Erik Sloan

climber

Jul 28, 2014 - 09:07pm PT

Awesome, awesome post. Good work Banquo!

Someone's gotta have the Ace hammer that Conrad Anker made, no? That one should be around middle 20s ounces, though had a longer pick tip.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO

Jul 29, 2014 - 09:05pm PT

OK. I am hijacking this thread a bit, but I know Dan (Banquo) has also been working on a device for pulling 3/8" bolts. Check out the photos at the bottom of the page in this link for such a device:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/poetry-in-motion/105958606

Personally, I have a 3/8" tuning fork that Greg Barnes at ASCA gave me. It seems to work well for split shafts at the Pinnacles, but I have not put it to use on granite.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.