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vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Interestingly, US 'free' media keeps ignoring the Russian allegations. _-Ukrainian president just said the SU-25-s had nothing to do with NH17 crash - acknowledging this way that he lied before about them not been there. Baby step, but the step in the right direction.- Sorry - I was wrong here, he did not acknowledge anything

And US by staying quiet confirms not only Russian's theory of MH17 been deliberately shot down by the Ukrainian military, but consequently it's own involvement. Could they say at least something beyond referring to some doctored youtube videos and social media posts? All this "we know Russia is guilty an has to be punished' starts sounding a bit like Bush and Iraq WMD story.

All that sucks. Could we get at least some professional help in the State Department?
Rock Monkey

Mountain climber
Thousand Oaks, California
Jul 21, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
Rocky vs. Drago rematch, eh?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
CNN video ^^ so that is the media reaction I was waiting for - prepare the audience to discard anything that Russians saying, it is all conspiracy theories? Muddy the water?

The Russian intelligence presented the facts they see it, and now Obama is on a hard spot. It is obvious - I hope at least by now it is obvious to the people in the administration - that Russians saved some for the later, and none knows what it is. All the Ukrainian military equipment is Russian-made, and that includes the communication systems. Who knows what they have recorded.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
Fingerprints allover - that is exactly what I'm asking for. US intelligence said they got fingerprints, me - and now apparently Russians - what to see them, so matching can be done. So far, all the proof US presented is social media files, which is beyond laughable.

Now there is a direct request to give away the coordinates of the rocket launch - this should tell us who done it, right? And all we got back is 'we know the truth'. Well, if you know the truth but do not want to share - means you do not like what you know, right?

It is all that simple - the launch position and time , and explosion position and time. The sat was, as Russians said 'accidentally or not' right above the area at the launch time. US working hard on placing blame on Russia - stop BS, prove it.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
Radio hosts. Yup. Figured.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Four days later Ron, wow.

I bet Raegan acted instantly In 88, or how about 82?

First you bitch about taking four days, then you turn around and say we shouldn't get
our nose in these things.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
I kinda liked Putin a few years ago!
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
For the most part I liked your post Ron.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
Anyone on a Russian Aeroflot jet is a frickn potential suicide
until the score gets evened. The whole planet is a
no fly zone for Vlad's carrier right now. Just need to pick the
right one. Eenie meenie miney mo.....Hey MO!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 21, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/

Guilt By Insinuation

How American propaganda works.

by Paul Craig Roberts

Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?

The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center.

The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area. The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data captured by the satellite.

President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires “a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Putin’s call for an independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with anything to hide.

Turning to Washington Putin stated: “In the meantime, no one [not even the “exceptional nation”] has the right to use this tragedy to achieve their narrowly selfish political goals.”

Putin reminded Washington: “We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and to sit down at the negotiating table. I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed [by Kiev] on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.”

What is the American response?

Lies and insinuations.

Yesterday (July 20) the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it was “pretty clear” that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry’s words: “It’s pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.”

Kerry’s statement is just another of the endless lies told by US secretaries of state in the 21st century. Who can forget Colin Powell’s package of lies delivered to the UN about Saddam Hussein’s “weapons of mass destruction” or Kerry’s lie repeated endlessly that Assad “used chemical weapons against his own people” or the endless lies about “Iranian nukes”?

Remember that Kerry on a number of occasions stated that the US had proof that Assad crossed the “red line” by using chemical weapons. However, Kerry was never able to back up his statements with evidence. The US had no evidence to give the British prime minister whose effort to have Parliament approve Britain’s participation with Washington in a military attack on Syria was voted down. Parliament told the prime minister, “no evidence, no war.”

Again here is Kerry declaring “confidence” in statements that are directly contradicted by the Russian satellite photos and endless eye witnesses on the ground.

Why doesn’t Washington release its photos from its satellite?

The answer is for the same reason that Washington will not release all the videos it confiscated and that it claims prove that a hijacked 9/11 airliner hit the Pentagon. The videos do not support Washington’s claim, and the US satellite photos do not support Kerry’s claim.

The UN weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq reported that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. However, the fact did not support Washington’s propaganda and was ignored. Washington started a highly destructive war based on nothing but Washington’s intentional lie.

The International Atomic Energy Commission’s inspectors on the ground in Iran and all 16 US intelligence agencies reported that Iran had no nuclear weapons program. However, the fact was inconsistent with Washington’s agenda and was ignored by both the US government and the presstitute media.

We are witnessing the same thing right now with the assertions in the absence of evidence that Russia is responsible for the downing of the Malaysian airliner.

Not every member of the US government is as reckless as Kerry and John McCain. In place of direct lies, many US officials use insinuations.

US Senator Diane Feinstein is the perfect example. Interviewed on the presstitute TV station CNN, Feinstein said: “The issue is where is Putin? I would say, ‘Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.’”

Putin has been talking to the world nonstop calling for an expert non-politicized investigation, and Feinstein is asking Putin why he is hiding behind silence. We know you did it, Feinstein insinuates, so just tell us whether you meant to or whether it was an accident.

The way the entire Western news cycle was orchestrated with blame instantly being placed on Russia long in advance of real information suggests that the downing of the airliner was a Washington operation. It is, of course, possible that the well-trained presstitute media needed no orchestration from Washington in order to lay the blame on Russia. On the other hand, some of the news performances seem too scripted not to have been prepared in advance.

We also have the advanced preparation of the youtube video that purports to show a Russian general and Ukrainian separatists discussing having mistakenly downed a civilian airliner. As I pointed out earlier, this video is twice damned. It was ready in advance and by implicating the Russian military, it overlooked that the Russian military can tell the difference between a civilian airliner and a military airplane. The existence of the video itself implies that there was a plot to down the airliner and blame Russia.

I have seen reports that the Russian anti-aircraft missile system, as a safety device, is capable of contacting aircraft transponders in order to verify the type of aircraft. If the reports are correct and if the transponders from MH-17 are found, they might record the contact.

I have seen reports that Ukrainian air control changed the route of MH-17 and directed it to fly over the conflict area. The transponders should also indicate whether this is correct. If so, there clearly is at least circumstantial evidence that this was an intentional act on the part of Kiev, an act which would have required Washington’s blessing.

There are other reports that there is a divergence between the Ukrainian military and the unofficial militias formed by the right-wing Ukrainian extremists who apparently were the first to attack the separatists. It is possible that Washington used the extremists to plot the airliner’s destruction in order to blame Russia and use the accusations to pressure the EU to go along with Washington’s unilateral sanctions against Russia. We do know that Washington is desperate to break up the growing economic and political ties between Russia and Europe.

If it was a plot to down an airliner, any safety device on the missile system could have been turned off so as to give no warning or leave any telltale sign. That could be the reason a Ukrainian fighter was sent to inspect the airliner. Possibly the real target was Putin’s airliner and incompetence in implementing the plot resulted in the destruction of a civilian airliner.

As there are a number of possible explanations, let’s keep open minds and resist Washington’s propaganda until facts and evidence are in. In the very least Washington is guilty of using the incident to blame Russia in advance of the evidence. All Washington has shown us so far are accusations and insinuations. If that is all Washington continues to show us, we will know where the blame resides.

In the meantime, remember the story of the boy who cried “wolf!” He lied so many times that when the wolf did come, no one believed him. Will this be Washington’s ultimate fate?

Instead of declaring war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, and Syria, why did Washington hide behind lies? If Washington wants war with Iran, Russia, and China, why not simply declare war? The reason that the US Constitution requires war to begin with a declaration of war by Congress is to prevent the executive branch from orchestrating wars in order to further hidden agendas. By abdicating its constitutional responsibility, the US Congress is complicit in the executive branch’s war crimes. By approving Israel’s premeditated murder of Palestinians, the US government is complicit in Israel’s war crimes.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 21, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
What happened to my post responding to Ron?

It was before Cocchrane posted his cut and paste and now is gone.
I've never deleted a post.
Wierd.


Sorry Ron, I read your post as a jab at Obama out of habit.
I gave a comparison as a measure.

I'd be the first to agree that we need to quit being the playground monotor around the world. Sadly most of the war mongers on capital hill want to flex our might at every little skirmish.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:09am PT
The USA has done much the same as Russia around the world, in places like Afghanistan for instance

Yup.
And all this talk about making Russia "pay" etc. from idiots like John McNobrain is hypocritical at best. More like insane.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:55am PT
Tioga, Malaysian was already three sheets to the wind financially before
the first one disappeared. It has been kept afloat, so to speak, only because
it is a guvmint operation.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:24am PT
BBC Russia has published some info from Russian military briefing on MN17:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/07/140716_russia_boeing_mh17_findings.shtml - limited though, may be a quarter of facts what were presented.

And this one on US military briefing today where Mat Lee (sp?) from AP was trying to get an answer to the simple question - you saying Russians are wrong were are your proofs? The only answer he got - we do use other that social media sources. http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/07/140722_mh17_us_russia_dispute.shtml

Here they talk about Ukrainian SU-25 seen near Boeing, saying that locals did see the plane Russians talk about. Trying to disproof the point that Rissoan defense ministry did not make - that SU-25 is not suited to shut down target at 10000m. Wrong, BTW. It is not a fighter, but not toothless against fighters .http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/07/140716_russia_boeing_mh17_findings.shtml

None of the articles exist in normal version, or they are hidden well. C'mon, "the best news organisation in the world"!

BTW the black boxes were handed over to Malayans yesterday, news reaching Western media today only. Malaysians could not get to the crash sight yesterday - the train station where they were waiting was shelled by Ukrainian military, in continuing fighting. The boxes were handed over in Donetsk instead. I think Malayans finally got to the crash site today.

Russians allegations are pretty serious. They never saying that but it easily concludes to no accident - Boeing was shut down deliberately by the Ukraine military. There is more than one reason why would they do that.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:56am PT
So let the Western European intelligence community find the smoking gun.
(presumably meant sarcastically by the OP)

US and NATO have the "technical assets" to monitor Ukraine airspace. Since there's a war going on adjacent to NATO countries, you can bet we're doing it.
Meaning the military spy satellites, intercepted phone and internet communications, etc etc.
The NATO air defense system knows a great deal about what goes on in the airspace behind the old Iron Curtain including Ukraine. Satellites, AWACS, radar, "signals intelligence". Likewise for Russia looking westward and eastward (China). This is What We and Russia Do. All day every day and night. We and they are very good at it.
Russia pretending we did it?
That's about as valid as Putin calling himself a democrat.

I have no doubt, none, zero that we know the technical details about what happened. Just ask Snowden.
The psychology, the human chain of decision and events are certainly more opaque. It's likely the chain of command is very shaky from the separatist leadership down to the units on the ground. It's entirely likely the "Leader" in Donetsk had no idea in advance. Or maybe he did. This we may never know.
Did Putin know in advance? I seriously doubt it. Putin is a nasty, untrustworthy SOB, manipulator and near dictator. An intelligent ex KGB Colonel with operational responsibilities. I don't think he's stupid enough to plan or approve this disaster.
This is a foreign policy nightmare for Russia.
I don't believe there was any intention to shoot down a civilian plane. It was an operational cock-up.

Ask yourself a fundamental question: given that Poroshenko, Obama, Putin and Malaysian Airlines are rational (which doesn't de-facto mean honest or trustworthy). What could ANY of them benefit from this? The separatist leader? Who knows about his rationality?
Collusion between US and Ukraine to do this?
No friggen way. Eventually the truth will out. Nobody intentionally wanted this disaster.

Were Russian "trainers" involved? Did Russia purposely deliver the Buks to the separatists? Very possibly. But not with the intent to shoot a civilian airliner with 290 people out of the sky.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:11am PT
Y'all are over-thinking this unless, of course, you subscribe to some conspiracy
help line. Of course the Russian military supplied the Buks. But those
'freedom fighters' are drunken Russian nationalists, on a good day. Proof
of their stupidity and incompetence is the shoot-down. They couldn't tell
a SU-25 or an AN-26 from a B-777? Right.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:19am PT
Russia pretending we did it?
Why would you include Ukraine in the 'we'? We are hiding the facts, as you hopefully can see. Does not mean direct involvement.

Reilly you are a bit out of touch here. Watching Ukrainian TV or something?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:23am PT
Я не вижу ничего ТВ, кроме как спорт. ;-))
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:33am PT
Good choice Reilly))

given that Poroshenko, .. rational
Well that was a stretch of cause, but who said it was him? Ukraine is pretty chaotic right now, and he could easily been a target. The only game he would have then - deny everything blame Russia. Precisely what he is doing right now.

There are few personas in high Ukrainian politics who are well capable of a plot like that, and have a proven record. The previous president was overthrown by executing 100 people right at the central square of Kiev and placing blame on the state officials, president fled the country. It was a success, so why not again?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Ron last evening:
The only thing that has changed is the USA wanting to nose into every civil war in the world. We need to curb that trend asap
Again we agree!
(twice in three days? that's almost frightening)

Looks to me as if Obama is holding a steady course to keep us out of as much of other nations' chaos as possible.
Much to the annoyance of the Republitard (I do mean those who are demonstrably STUPID) politicians and the quacking neo-con heads.
Most notably McCain who should bloody well know better by now.
Last week McCain said:
So first, give the Ukrainians weapons to defend themselves and regain their territory. Second of all, move some of our troops into areas that are being threatened by Vladimir Putin, other countries like the Baltics and others. Move missile defense into the places where we got out of, like the Czech Republic and Poland and other places. And impose the harshest possible sanctions on Vladimir Putin and Russia. That's just for openers.
Has he ever heard of NATO? Does he even know that Ukraine borders Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic and Poland, all members of NATO?
Of all Ukraine's neighbors, only Belarus and Russia are not NATO members.
We deployed an F-16 squadron to Poland in response to Crimea. 6 more US f-16s were deployed from England to Lithuania. All of this in March.
He of all people knows that even on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, things can go Very Very Wrong and that War Is Hell, especially from inside a Hanoi prison. I used to have some respect for the guy (McCain-Feingold, supporting gun control). Choosing Palin for VP cured me.

Then Lindsey Graham who can't find his own arse with two hands.
Cheney who's got more than enough blood on his hands to go around.
Wolfowitz the "brain" behind the Iraq war.
Bill Kristol, the Iraq war head cheerleader.
Shrub has been notably quiet. Surprisingly he might be smarter than the others. He might have learned his lesson. Being President means tough decisions as he found out.
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