Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 181 - 200 of total 384 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Ukrainian Buks are deployed in the area.
I'd like to see some evidence. I couldn't find any such information when I looked.
So the US Navy was also incompetent when we shot down the Iranian Airbus in 1988 with one of our best anti-aircraft ships. 290 dead.
It's called the Fog of War and these accidents don't necessarily indicate the capabilities of the militaries involved, US, Ukrainian or Russian.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
there aren't any ukrainian buks in the area for the simple reason that the entire area has been under the control of the separatists for weeks.

but we have an AP report and video and photos of Buks in insurgent hands-- they claimed to have captured one from Ukraine several weeks back.

for the few folks who care, the Brits have the best English-language coverage, especially The TIme and The Guardian. The Times is paywall, but TheGuardian isn't.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/three-pro-russia-rebel-leaders-suspects-over-downed-mh17

The Telegraph has alos been better than the US papers or BBC.

The German papers have had some interesting coverage--

http://www.faz.net/
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/todesflug-mh-rekonstruktion-der-grossen-katastrophe-1.2053424

The Dutch are covering this closely for obvious reasons, but my Dutch consists of my bad english and bad German mixed together.

This is obviously an EU issue-- Germans Brits and French are Russia's main western trading partners (not the US), and they're the ones dependent on Russian energy to keep their economies uprght in winter. Looks to me like this will really push folks to re-evaluate relations with Putin. There'll be sanctions, but they'll have a tough time agreeing on what sort.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Had anyone seen any mentioning of this twitter https://twitter.com/spainbuca anywhere in the news?
The account disappeared, but I have it still open in my browser window. It is in Spanish, but google translate does a reasonable job with it.

The guy was writing about 2 Ukrainian fighter jets following HU17 minutes before the crash. He was supposedly working in Kiev, air traffic controller. Probably married to Ukrainian girl and moved in, his twitter existed since 2010.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
As of 'no Ukrainian Buks in the area' - given the 35-55 km range, depending on the missile, they are well in the area.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
they are well in the area.

ah, you're one of those who believes that the various satellite reads on the launch are western agi-prop.

party on, dude.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Did they post the position of the launch reads along with the timestamp? I have not seen that. Buk has a dissent range.

The only difference it makes, BTW - was it an accident (rebel's Buk) or provocation (Ukrainian army Buk or fighter jets). Big difference though. But in no case it takes the blame away from Ukrainian authorities - who bare the whole responsibility for it's airspace safety.

It sounds strange, but up to the moment there is no direct evidence it was Buk hit. It must be pretty straightforward to prove, by the character of the damage.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
C'mon Ron Ukraine did not exist in 1700. Not in 1800 or 1900. BTW in 1900 Poland or Finland did not exist either. The name was invented by Pols who called the occupied part of Russia that way in around 1700.

Holodomor been exposed by Stalin to kill Ukrainians is a Ukrainian nation-building legend. It was done by local communists, whom you could call Russians, but then it was no Ukraine, or if it was Ukraine - they are Ukrainians. Pick one.

In reality, Ukraine never existed before 1989. The rest is propaganda.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
US assets (reconnaissance satellites) recorded the launch flash and the strike on the aircraft.
The US gov't knows exactly where the missile came from.
But of course there will be the paranoid/right wing/"communist"/conspiracy theories. At least Roberts pretended to be logical, he was either very confused or very loose with his facts.
There is now overwhelming valid evidence of what happened. Why and how are different questions.
It is the Russians and Russian separatists who are doing their best to hide and obscure the facts.
The separatists are acting like the undisciplined rabble they really are.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Ron
for once I agree with you!
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
perhaps i just should have used "people of the region"
Given the scale of things communist and Stalin did - communists come first, in the place of Stalin it could of been a few other guys, some like Trotsky are much more fierce - Holodomor was a routine, almost insignificant event.

You probably should call Trotsky Ukrainian BTW. He was "people of the region".
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
The US gov't knows exactly where the missile came from.
And they are not sharing this info with the public because...?

This is a somewhat unusual situation, is not it? Why they are sitting on it - trying to figure the way get the most of it?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
PLEASE!

Putin's GRU run rabble f*#ked up and murdered 295 people.


Give it a rest!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
Did they post the position of the launch reads along with the timestamp? I have not seen that. Buk has a dissent range.

The only difference it makes, BTW - was it an accident (rebel's Buk) or provocation (Ukrainian army Buk or fighter jets). Big difference though. But in no case it takes the blame away from Ukrainian authorities - who bare the whole responsibility for it's airspace safety.

It sounds strange, but up to the moment there is no direct evidence it was Buk hit. It must be pretty straightforward to prove, by the character of the damage.

the launch detection was presented as part of the US presentation to the UN. Since that region is one of the most intensely surveilled, the one that NATO was originally built to surveil;; and since none of the 11 other signatories to NATO who share command and control and have access to that intel have dissented; i think we can take it as a firm bit of evidence and not another yellowcake moment.

the US has also verified the authenticity of that conversation intercept the Ukrainians posted, along with corroboration of the Buks in separatist control.

i don't think there is much doubt in the international community that it was a mistake by the separatist rebels, and that Russian technical advisors either facilitated or did the launch.

the separatist obstruction of journalists and international observers at the crash scene; and the multiple reports from journalists on-site that parts of the aircraft were disappeared in the first 48 hours; leave little doubt that the russians, too, believe they're on the hook for this.

if putin and his advisors really believed that the ukrainians had shot down the airliner, you'd have seen a jillion russian technical specialists on the crash site, bringing in as many foreign journalists as possible, to show off wreckage with ukrainian fingerprints all over it. it'd be a blank check for putin, and a major lever for reworking NATO.

instead we're getting exactly what we saw after kal. same exact game plan, only this time there's no iron curtain.

your comment that ukraine is culpable makes no sense to me or to anyone else, seemingly, in the international community.

these kind of incidents happen frequently in wars in border zones-- this is just a spectacularly large and tragic one. how europe responds will probably be mostly up to the germans and the french. the cold war is over, and while the us certainly has a strategic interest in a stable ukraine, all of the saber-rattling by folks like mccain seems pretty foolish.

but that's mostly for domestic consumption, because mcain, the neocons, and the realists are all in a battle of wills with the rising isolationsit wing of the gop. this becomes for them another front in that battle.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
Where Stalin starved more people than Hitler killed Jews during WW11
Modern estimates of the Holodomor are about 3 million in Ukraine and several more million in adjacent republics. Soviet records are deliberately sparse and vague where they do exist.

Ukraine never existed before 1989
Ukraine has existed as a national identity since early in the Soviet Union. There is a map of Ukraine in 1918 here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#mediaviewer/File:Ukrainian_State_1918.5-11.png
In 1945, the Ukrainian SSR became one of the founding members of the United Nations organization
True independence was a fiction under the USSR

You can say its borders have been extremely fluid and has not been an independent whole nation until 1989.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
your comment that ukraine is culpable makes no sense to me
Well, that means you are not watching the conflict closely. Allowing civil air traffic over the area where your own military aircrafts are downed on regular basis is madness, IMHO. Or may be 'provocation' is a better suited word?

BTW I do think that likely it was rebel's Buk, but still there are loose ends here and there. Unlikely operated by Russians - there is plenty of capable men in Ukraine. If you remember, during Russia-Georgia war in Ossetia russian surveillance plane was downed by Buk missile - operated by very capable Ukrainians.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
The Russians aren't very nice guys. Who knew?

On top of their other crimes, the Russians are treating the dead like garbage. Looks like he's ready to shoot this one again.

vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
You can say its borders have been extremely fluid...
Much more than that. Borders did not matter at all - it was administrative subdivision. Not even like between CA and NV - more like between Santa Clara and say Alameda county. Or may be like between Inyo and San Bernardino - it must be a border somewhere down there, you know.

The whole subdivision of Russia into the 'Republics' was artificial and existed only to make an illusion of the other European countries freely joining the Great Union when the time comes. Time never came, lucky world.
WBraun

climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
the Russians are treating the dead like garbage

Says the forum surfer who's thousands of miles form the incident.

You ever been on a MCI???

You people look at pictures and just plain make up sh!t along with the biased stupid American news media.

Go there for real instead of running your mouth making up sh!t.

You Americans are dumber then ever ......

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
http://sofrep.com/36195/one-missile-298-lives-lost-profile-buk-9k37-sa-11-gadfly-sam/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
Allowing civil air traffic over the area
So why hadn't Russia closed the air corridor that MH17 would have entered in 2 or 3 minutes?
Messages 181 - 200 of total 384 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews