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Big Wall climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
Let him go, he's on a roll

Jul 20, 2014 - 12:19am PT
This may, indeed, turn out to be the Shot Heard Around the Weird.
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:29am PT
Yeah this shitt is all tied to the IMF the World Bank the Rockefellers and Michelle Obama wearing a strap-on at an Illuminati orgy

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:58am PT

Jul 20, 2014 - 08:30am PT
A "black" box found...

Trad climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:43am PT
Paul Craig Roberts - wrong yet again. I can't believe folks keep quoting him.

prolly just couldn't find a david icke rant linking mh17 to the the jewish-reptilian alien conspiracy

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:51am PT

We once had a president that knew how to deal with murderers!

Hahahaha!!! Yeah, he knew how to deal with terrorists. Cut and run!

When he wasn't selling the terrorists missiles himself, of course.

Mountain climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:40am PT
here is the fuel for whats happening out there .

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:16am PT
He is still Arizona senator? Shame to the people of Arizona.

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:19am PT
Luckily, he is as a lone voice howling in the wilderness that is the US Congress.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 11:30am PT
So, Rong, Mr. American Opinion, I asked you before:

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE about the airliner shootdown?

Or are you just what everyone says you are: a full-on racist that only lives to be opposed to ANYTHING that the President does, and has to reserve your opinion, just to make sure that you never, ever suggest the thing that he does?
Jeremy Ross

Gym climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
I'm curious, what should be done?


Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Paul Craig Roberts
I've never heard of him. Fortunately.
Reading the long quotation from him, I counted at least 4 known factual errors in the first 8 paragraphs.
Perhaps I've not heard of him because he's so obviously unreliable?

Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing
the facts that we do have.
So what about Russia's propaganda machine and the deleted online separatist videos?
One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.
As I noted earlier, Al Jazeera reported a few days earlier they had captured a Buk launcher.
Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia.
True Statement #1
Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.
ABSOLUTE BS. Later he claims they might have thought it was a Ukraine transport, not a low flying attack aircraft. Which is it? However as I noted earlier consider one of our best anti-aircraft ships: USS Vincennes which mistook a Boeing airliner for an F-14. Wikipedia is your friend in case you don't remember 1988 as well as I do.
The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.
questionable. The nearest Ukrainian bases are many miles to the west. Ukraine is a BIG country, not some potty little place.

Wikipedia: The most capable radar, assuming it has a line-of-sight (no terrain between the radar and the target), can track targets (depending on size) as low as 100 feet (30 meters) and a far as 85 miles (140 kilometers). The most capable missile can hit targets as far as 30 miles (50 kilometers) and more than 80,000 feet (25,000 meters) in altitude.
Consider that the separatists control nearly all the real estate within 50 miles of the crash site and it's within a few miles of the Russian border.

Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive....
True statement #2
One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use.
Very questionable. Consider the source and the distance to main Ukraine troops.
The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia.
BS again. The Ukrainian military has been modernizing these weapons over the years
Wikipedia: The An-24 and An-26 aircraft, as well as the anti-aircraft artillery systems S-300 and "Buk M1", have been continually modernized, and their service life has been extended.

Ukraine has been cozy with Russia on an off several times in that period. They even have been training with Russian troops.
Wikipedia: The combined training of the Air Force of Ukraine and the Russian Air Force in the practical control of their air defense Stand-by Forces has become more systematic. Moreover, interoperability has been achieved between the forces of Ukraine and the command and control elements of the Air defense of the Russian Federation during the detecting, tracking, and neutralizing of air targets during simulated terrorist attacks.
Wikipedia, Ukrainian Air Force

The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.
"accident" is a strange thing to call a deliberate act even if the target was mistaken.
That would let off a lot of murderers.
The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.
True statement #3
What intended use? News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putin’s presidential airliner
Highly unlikely
The planes were 37 minutes apart. If they were looking for Putin's plane they were completely incompetent.
The following paragraphs are just propaganda and distortions.
for example
The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.
the propagandist accusing others of propaganda
Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington
This is a surprise? And so what? It's more telling that the video was pulled down.
The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner.
No one has claimed evidence that "Putin did it". It's easy enough to infer but there is nothing in the video I saw to suggest Russia knew about it in advance.
Indeed the entire Western media spoke as one: Russia did it. And the presstitutes are still speaking the same way.
This nonsense speaks for itself.
I use absurd made up words like Republitards. Precisely because I'm expressing my own absurd and snide opinion. I'm not pretending to be a journalist.
The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing. However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing. What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him.
Is this a deliberate propagandist inversion or is Roberts really this idiotic?

One more totally bogus statement:
Israel claims that its air attack and invasion of Gaza is merely Israel’s attempt to find and close the alleged tunnels through which Palestinian terrorists pour into Israel inflicting carnage. Of course there are no tunnels and no terrorist carnage in Israel.
He's obviously not keeping current. There are videos all over the internet by Hamas showing their troops in tunnels. Yesterday several Hamas and IDF soldiers were killed in battles at the tunnel outlets in Israel.
Certainly the power and casualties are terribly one sided but that doesn't absolve a "journalist" from being factually accurate.

By the way, he left the WSJ in 1980
He is certainly colorful and prone to exaggeration and strange conclusions
.....all over the west. There is no democracy, there are oligarchies, some of these smaller European countries are not even run by their own governments, they are run by Wall Street... There is probably more democracy in China than there is in the west. Revolution is the only answer...

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
Walter Duranty reincarnate.

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
HighTraverse, Ukrainian Buks are deployed in the area. This is a fact none is trying to deny.
Separatist do have 1 SU-25 bomber, and they proudly reported it been used in the battle.

The training of Ukrainian military personnel must be pathetic, given the state of Ukrainian military in general.

If you remember they did shot down Russian passenger plane about 10 years back. It was not intended, true act of incompetence. Not much changed since.

Jul 20, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Nothing says "I think we may have a PR problem" like downing an airliner.

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Ukrainian Buks are deployed in the area.
I'd like to see some evidence. I couldn't find any such information when I looked.
So the US Navy was also incompetent when we shot down the Iranian Airbus in 1988 with one of our best anti-aircraft ships. 290 dead.
It's called the Fog of War and these accidents don't necessarily indicate the capabilities of the militaries involved, US, Ukrainian or Russian.

Trad climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
there aren't any ukrainian buks in the area for the simple reason that the entire area has been under the control of the separatists for weeks.

but we have an AP report and video and photos of Buks in insurgent hands-- they claimed to have captured one from Ukraine several weeks back.

for the few folks who care, the Brits have the best English-language coverage, especially The TIme and The Guardian. The Times is paywall, but TheGuardian isn't.

The Telegraph has alos been better than the US papers or BBC.

The German papers have had some interesting coverage--

The Dutch are covering this closely for obvious reasons, but my Dutch consists of my bad english and bad German mixed together.

This is obviously an EU issue-- Germans Brits and French are Russia's main western trading partners (not the US), and they're the ones dependent on Russian energy to keep their economies uprght in winter. Looks to me like this will really push folks to re-evaluate relations with Putin. There'll be sanctions, but they'll have a tough time agreeing on what sort.

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Had anyone seen any mentioning of this twitter anywhere in the news?
The account disappeared, but I have it still open in my browser window. It is in Spanish, but google translate does a reasonable job with it.

The guy was writing about 2 Ukrainian fighter jets following HU17 minutes before the crash. He was supposedly working in Kiev, air traffic controller. Probably married to Ukrainian girl and moved in, his twitter existed since 2010.

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
As of 'no Ukrainian Buks in the area' - given the 35-55 km range, depending on the missile, they are well in the area.
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