Malaysian Airliner shot down over Ukraine


Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 181 - 200 of total 448 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
There will be nothing "done" about this. Be it a mistake or not, its Russia - and the Ukraine.

And what do you think SHOULD be done, Rong?

You are full of outrage, but not full of solutions.

57,000 children, and you have not been able to describe what to do with ONE of them, not ONE---except to execute them.

so what do you do with Russia, big Decider?

Social climber
State of decay
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
Sorry for the drift, but I have to ask;

GLillegard is this the Gary Lillegard whose father owned Pack and Piton in Glendora and later Upland in the 70's and 80's?
If so, send me a pm,it would be great to talk to you after all these years.
If not, please disregard and carry on....
Tony Yeary

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner?

Paul Craig Roberts

Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing
the facts that we do have.

One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.

The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertake–unless there was a plan to frame Russia.

One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.

As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

One way to begin is to ask: Why was the missile system where it was? Why risk an expensive missile system by deploying it in a conflict environment in which it is of no use? Incompetence is one answer, and another is that the missile system did have an intended use.

What intended use? News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putin’s presidential airliner and confused the Malaysian airliner with the Russian airliner.

The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”

I have not seen an official Russian denial, but according to news reports, the Russian government in response to the Interfax news report said that Putin’s presidential plane no longer flies the Ukraine route since the outbreak of hostilities.

Before we take the denial at face value, we need to be aware that the implication that Ukraine attempted to assassinate the president of Russia implies war, which Russia wants to avoid. It also implies Washington’s complicity as it is highly unlikely that Washington’s puppet in Kiev would risk such a dangerous act without Washington’s backing. The Russian government, being intelligent and rational, would obviously deny reports of an attempted assassination of the Russian president by Washington and its Kiev puppet. Otherwise, Russia has to do something about it, and that means war.

The second explanation is that the extremists who operate outside the official Ukrainian military, hatched a plot to down an airliner in order to cast the blame on Russia. If such a plot occurred, it likely originated with the CIA or some operative arm of Washington and was intended to force the EU to cease resisting Washington’s sanctions against Russia and to break off Europe’s valuable economic relationships with Russia. Washington is frustrated that its sanctions are unilateral, unsupported by its NATO puppets or any other countries in the world except possibly the lap-dog British PM.

There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation. There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit.

Another problem with the video is that whereas we could say that separatists conceivably could confuse an airliner at 33,000 feet with a military attack plane, the Russian military would not. The only conclusion is that by involving the Russian military, the video doubly discredited itself.

The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.

In my previous article I reported on the BBC news report which I heard and which was obviously primed to place all blame on Russia. The program ended with a BBC correspondent breathlessly reporting that he has just seen the youtube video and that the video is the smoking gun that proved Russia did it. There is no longer any doubt, he said. Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington.

The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner. The entire BBC report aired over National Public Radio was orchestrated for the sole purpose of establishing prior to any evidence that Russia was responsible.

Indeed the entire Western media spoke as one: Russia did it. And the presstitutes are still speaking the same way.

Possibly, this uniform opinion merely reflects the pavlovian training of the Western media to automatically line up with Washington. No media source wants to be subject to criticism for being unamerican or to find itself isolated by majority opinion, which carries the day, and earn black marks for being wrong. As a former journalist for, and contributor to, America’s most important news publications, I know how this works.

On the other hand, if we discount the pavlovian conditioning, the only conclusion is that the entire news cycle pertaining to the downing of the Malaysian airliner is orchestrated in order to lay the blame on Putin.

Romesh Ratnesar, deputy editor of Bloomberg Businessweek, provides convincing evidence for orchestration in his own remarks of July 17. Ratnesar’s opinion title is: “The Malaysia Airlines Shootdown Spells Disaster for Putin.” Ratnesar does not mean that Putin is being framed-up. He means that prior to Putin having the Malaysian airliner shot down, “to the vast majority of Americans, Russia’s meddling in Ukraine has largely seemed of peripheral importance to U.S. interests. That calculus has changed. . . . It may take months, even years, but Putin’s recklessness is bound to catch up to him. When it does, the downing of MH 17 may be seen as the beginning of his undoing.”

As a former Wall Street Journal editor, anyone who handed me a piece of sh#t like Ratnesar published would have been fired. Look at the insinuations when there is no evidence to support them. Look at the lie that Washington’s coup is “Russia’s meddling in Ukraine.” What we are witnessing is the total corruption of Western journalism by Washington’s imperial agenda. Journalists have to get on board with the lies or get run over.

Look around for still honest journalists. Who are they? Glenn Greenwald, who is under constant attack by his fellow journalists, all of whom are whores. Who else can you think of? Julian Assange, locked away in the Ecuadoran Embassy in London on Washington’s orders. The British puppet government won’t permit free transit to Assange to take up his asylum in Ecuador. The last country that did this was the Soviet Union, which required its Hungarian puppet to keep Cardinal Mindszenty interred in the US Embassy in Budapest for 15 years from 1956 until 1971. Mindszenty was granted political asylum by the United States, but Hungary, on Soviet orders, would not honor his asylum, just as Washington’s British puppet, on Washington’s orders, will not honor Assange’s asylum.

If we are honest and have the strength to face reality, we will realize that the Soviet Union did not collapse. It simply moved, along with Mao and Pol Pot, to Washington and London.

The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing. However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing. What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him.

I understand Putin’s strategy, which contrasts Russian reasonableness with Washington’s threats, but it is a risky bet. Europe has long been a part of Washington, and there are no Europeans in power who have the vision needed to separate Europe from Washington. Moreover, European leaders are paid large sums of money to serve Washington. One year out of office and Tony Blair was worth $50 million dollars.

After the disasters that Europeans have experienced, it is unlikely that European leaders think of anything other than a comfortable existence for themselves. That existence is best obtained by serving Washington. As the successful extortion of Greece by banks proves, European people are powerless.

Here is the official statement of the Russian Defense Ministry:

Washington’s propaganda assault against Russia is a double tragedy, because it has diverted attention from Israel’s latest atrocity against the Palestinians locked up in the Gaza Ghetto. Israel claims that its air attack and invasion of Gaza is merely Israel’s attempt to find and close the alleged tunnels through which Palestinian terrorists pour into Israel inflicting carnage. Of course there are no tunnels and no terrorist carnage in Israel.

One might think that at least one journalist somewhere in the American media would ask why bombing hospitals and civilian housing closes underground tunnels into Israel. But that is too much to ask of the whores that comprise the US media.

Expect even less from the US Congress. Both the House and Senate have passed resolutions supporting Israel’s slaughter of Palestinians. Two Republicans–the despicable Lindsey Graham and the disappointing Rand Paul–and two democrats–Bob Menendez and Ben Cardin–sponsored the Senate resolution backing Israel’s premeditated murder of Palestinian women and children. The resolution passed the “exceptional and indispensable” people’s Senate unanimously.

As a reward for its policy of genocide, the Obama regime is immediately transferring $429 million of US taxpayers’ money to Israel to pay for the slaughter.

Contrast the US government’s support for Israel’s war crimes with the propaganda onslaught against Russia based on lies. We are living all over again “Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction,” “Assad’s use of chemical weapons,” “Iranian nukes.”

Washington has lied for so long that it can’t do anything else.

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Putin distances himself from that sh!t,
sh!t referring to gangsterism.

Putin is in fact a gangster. Pretty much a Fascist gangster. Complete with fabulously wealthy oligarchs, a complacent Church (Putin and wife frequent their Russian Orthodox Church on Sundays); throwing Pussy Riot and Greenpeace demonstrators in prison. Talk about throttling dissent.

The previous President of Ukraine was in league with Putin. His lapdog, if you like.
The new President, whatever his other faults sees Putin as a mortal enemy of Ukraine, and he might be right. (see Crimea for instance)

Shooting down MH17 was no accident. It was however, almost certainly mistaken identity.

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
Separatists do have 1 SU-25 and have used it in the battle at least once.
Ukrainian Buk systems deployed to the region right after that case.

And separatists do have competent personal to operate Buk launcher, at least experienced enough to shot down slow-flying AN-26 at 6500m.

Why bother writing something that lengthy without checking the events just couple days back? As they say "I'm a writer, not a reader?"

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
This way or another Putin has nothing to do with this incident. It is the responsibility of Ukrainian government to provide safety to the flight over it's territory. The simple way to provide safety over the territory they do not control is to close the airspace above it. This is exactly what they did with Crimea - they do not have any control over it, they completely closed it, even it is perfectly safe zone.

Donetsk is the zone of a conflict, where Ukraine has no control AND aircraft are shot down daily. To allow the civil air traffic over it is irresponsible at best. Criminal is the better fitted word.

Ukrainian military did degrade greatly since the Soviet times. They has been proving that for some time. But it is not proven that they are at fault here. There is one version that it was not an accident but a provocation and not ground to air missile but fighter jets were used. And yes both separatists and the government have Buk systems in place. Government forces have more systems but separatists have much more incentive (read - hostile targets) to use the only launcher they got.

But to be simple, if you accept that Ukraine is an independent state - then it is at fault here, period. Or you can easily come to the idea that the Ukrainian government is a US poppet - and then the blame goes to who? Mr.Obama?

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
CMON people...

The Russians (actual troops) are all over Ukraine..

I remember how they took Crimea. Bunch of Russian regular army without proper uniforms. The whole time Putin was saying.. not us..while his navy blockaded bases, sunk ships in their naval channels and his troops took over....Russian military is on the ground all over Ukraine. Putin is doing a textbook takeover.

The whole Ukrainian situation is 100% Putin. The place was basically stable till Ukraine threw out Putins lapdog.. then Putin waited for the Olympics to end.. and all hell broke loose immediately.

Running a BUK? Guarantee it's not that complicated. F-15s are not that hard to fly and the weapons system is surprisingly easy to use for that matter. A BUK cannot be harder than that. 20 minutes of instruction and some intelligent guy could probably score a hit.

Mistakes? Easy to make .. Ask the USA about that Iranian jetliner our top-notch navy shot down.

Not gunna matter much.. Putin is gonna get all of Ukraine eventually.

Sucks so many decent folks have to die over it though.. R.I.P.


Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Paul Craig Roberts - wrong yet again. I can't believe folks keep quoting him.

The Ukrainians do know how to use their Buks as do the Russian mercenaries currently operating in eastern Ukraine and who already used them once. It was clearly they who brought down the Malay flight.

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
I remember how they took Crimea.
Yes? it took 2 weeks, right? No Ukrainian military personnel dared to resist?

They are obviously NOT doing it to the rest of Ukraine. And if the situation keeps developing the way it is - Putin again will be blamed for NOT taking action.

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
Putin doesn't care.. he's taking Ukraine..and no one is going to stop him. At first I thought he might stop with Crimea.. but clearly he's going for it all.

This is just a minor bump along the way to him.

Resistance is futile. Seriously.

Only thing left to do is take advantage of the outrage and and shore up whatever interests we have that we can on the cheap.

It's a pathetic game.

DMT has it right.

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
Doubt that.

Some 95% of Crimea population dreamed of becoming a part of Russia again. Not the same for the rest of Ukraine. Putin will not take this poison pill. If and when the situation will change and 95% of the Ukrainians will dream of been Russians - then yes he may take it.

Which may happen. 30% of working Ukrainian male are in Russia. If economy of Ukraine will keep falling as it is now - it may happen sooner.

It is 45 million people, a third of Russia's population.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Washington is doing everything possible to promote a war with Russia and China to save the dollar, so we don't have to pay off the $20 trillion national debt......and under the misconception that it is possible to win a nuclear war...

...and disregarding that Russia, China, and India contain contain well over half the world's population, while the USA is a much smaller population percentage.

China is financially stronger than any country in history, and the USA is far deeper in debt than any country in history.

Washington's incentive is that as soon as the dollar collapses from being the world reference currency, the USA loses its privileged position and can no longer print money to fight wars of aggression, and sinks to being a third world country as the BRICS takes over.

Putin is doing everything possible to look the other way and avoid war with the practically speaking a nuclear exchange between major powers means the end of modern far he has successfully sidetracked several USA attempts to spark World War III...and this is just the latest such provocation...

Putin is betting all our futures on the hope that European leaders will see the light and not go along with Washington's provocations.

It is not clear that the clouding turmoil in Europe and Washington's bribery of its leaders will permit them to see what is at risk...

Big Wall climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
lol where do you find this sh!t
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
There's a lot of old climbers on this site who probably sustained some pretty serious knocks to the head, long ago
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
They only had 2 planes in their fleet, and they both crashed.

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
Washington is doing everything possible to promote a war with Russia and China to save the dollar

And they did this by shooting down a Malaysian plane?

Big Wall climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
Let him go, he's on a roll

Jul 20, 2014 - 12:19am PT
This may, indeed, turn out to be the Shot Heard Around the Weird.
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:29am PT
Yeah this shitt is all tied to the IMF the World Bank the Rockefellers and Michelle Obama wearing a strap-on at an Illuminati orgy

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:58am PT
Messages 181 - 200 of total 448 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

Try a free sample topo!

SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews