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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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I hate like hell to kill rattlesnakes. I have a job for them.
Too many ground squirrels around here. Rattlesnakes are one reason there aren't many more.
"Ground squirrels make up close to 70 percent of the rattlesnakes' diet, particularly squirrel pups with small body sizes, unable to neutralize a full dose of venom."
http://dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7547
95% of my yard is a perfect place for them. But the one last week couldn't have found a higher traffic area for at least a hundred yards in any direction. I wonder how many times I walked past it - barefooted - before the dog spotted it.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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Ain't that the truth.
There is definitely a level of panic that the TC is frothing up around the recent incidents (that's the TC for ya, though).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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Good training is not a substitute for keeping your dog close and in-control while frollicking around the great outdoors YUP
I happily let Oliver run at the dog park and the beach.
I am reminded that my long since deceased friend and neighbor had a German Shepherd that had been bitten in the face by a rattler. Several years before I met the perfectly healthy dog who had recovered on his own.
If you live in the Bay Area and want a rattler removed humanely:
http://www.gotsnakes.org
By the time I called them, my neighbor had already whacked the rattler beyond hope. Had to call them back and cancel.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
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It was Snake Aversion Training Day....Max's reaction was...well...mixed, to my eye.
The process was pretty much the same as others had described: a very mild shock collar, and several varying exposures: live, muzzled (mouth taped) baby rattlesnake, followed by snake skin, followed by a rattling snake in a 'rock', and then a large, live angry (mouth taped) rattlesnake. $70 for the training...there were about 60 dogs signed up for the day.
He had very little interest in the baby snake, or just plain didn't notice it. (Gotta say, though- the snake was somewhat lethargic.) Max would stand within inches of the dang thing, and without any real awareness or reaction! After several walk arounds, he eventually went in to investigate, and ZAP! Followed by a yelp & a jump.
The other stations went quicker, and he got a couple of zaps there, too. At the final station, the large adult, he looked at it and pretty much took a wide berth towards us. That kind of reaction is one of the more desirable actions you'd like to see.
It was a little anti-climactic, but that's just fine with me if it has the intended effects. I will probably take him back for at least another round in a year or so.
Getting fitted with the collar
Max, seemingly oblivious to the baby rattlesnake (circled)
Max, getting the point
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Jul 20, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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Wow...i have never heard of this training before, very worthwhile post...
Thanks everybody.. for your stories and great training pictures...
Delhi Dog is visiting us for a couple of days..I will try to get him to post his dog story.
God, I hate snakes....
edit, Ricky D..J.... Lol....
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 20, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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Delhi Dog is visiting us for a couple of days ...
Will you need to borrow a shock collar?
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jul 20, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
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We trained our dog about 13 years ago with Callaghan (sorry to hear he died; as far as I knew he was the first guy to do this training). She did the big arc around the snake when called as well. After the one training she avoided snakes really well and I knew she would not go up to a rattler, if she knew it was there , but I worried if she was running and came upon one quickly. We never trained her again.
About 4-5 years ago she was about 25 yards ahead of me running out front and I saw her jump sideways and a big ass snake strike all in a flash. I thought she got tagged for sure, checked her out and she was good but I was really shaken up so I looked long and hard at the "vaccine". In the end, it looked like jive to me. It didn't make sense.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 08:22am PT
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Although the aversion training is a good idea, it should be secondary to having your dog "immunized" with the rattlesnake vaccine.
I had a serious discussion with my vet on the topic, and his comment was:
Any dog weighing under 35 pounds may be considered a goner from rattlesnake bite UNLESS having had the rattlesnake vaccine. Any snakebite is a serious veterinary emergency, but the vaccine ensures survival of the dog. The usual protocol is one shot followed up at 4 weeks with a booster; then annual booster shots, or more frequently in high snake population areas, where boosters should be given every 6 to 8 weeks.
My dog weighs in at 104 pounds, but I get her the shots per the vet's schedule.
P.S. Added in edit: the shots are relatively cheap; it costs me $18 per shot at my vet's.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 21, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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But, Broke, yer knott afraid that her pups might get Autism? ;-)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 08:48am PT
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A dog was bitten on the face in my local area about 3 weeks ago- it was about 20 lbs, and survived...no vaccine.
There have been two other snakebite dog fatalities in this area in the last few months...the first was an Australian shepard mix of about 55 lbs.
There are many variables around survival or tissue damage: severity of envenomation, size of the dog, where the bite occurs, and to a degree, the type of snake.
Personally, I remain skeptical about the 'vaccine' (not a great word for it, since it's not truly a vaccine)...it has to be done yearly, some dogs have adverse reactions to it, and it is definitely not consistent in its benefits.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
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Reilly-
Nope. She's been spayed and no pups are in the offing.
Re: Effectiveness of the "vaccine:" The effectiveness varys with the exact species of rattlesnake involved. It was developed using Diamondback Rattlesnake venom as the "target." Timber Rattlesnakes, Sidewinders, and Prairie Rattlesnakes all have slightly different venom composition profiles. There are several very well defined components in crotalid toxins, principally Phospholipase C, phosphodiesterase, and L-amino acid oxidase. Of these components, phospholipase C is perhaps the worst actor in the group. This enzyme acts on the components of the red blood cells (erythrocytes) by cleaving one of the fatty acids in phosphatidyl ethanolamine, phosphatidyl choline, or phosphatidyl serine to form the corresponding Lysophosphatides which are active cell disruptive detergents. It is a simple task to inactivate the enzyme by heating to denature it. Either that or isolation of the key enzymes followed by treatment with acetic anhydride to block the serine active sites. The denatured venom or chemically modified enzymes are the basis of the "vaccine," and the immune system begins producing antibodies to the proteins. Ergo: antibodies to the evil enzymes is accomplished. A down side to this is the amount of venom injected could overwhelm the antibody titer and still have a massive deleterious effect on the target (dog).
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 21, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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Broke, not to get sidetracked but the accepted first aid for a stingray sting
is to pee on the wound in lieu of being able to apply heat in a more conventional
manner. I'm here to testify that it works. But I'm thinking it wouldn't
work so well with a rattler bite, right? Of course, applying heat to a
rattler bite also would not be indicated because it would probably hasten
the spread of the toxins.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
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After my Aussie got fanged in the face - we went the route of Aversion Training BUT also looked into the "Vaccine".
Problem was there was limited studies as to it's effectiveness but seemed to be plenty of first hand accounts of negative reactions - so we held off at the time.
One thing to consider if your dog has been bitten in the past and was treated with anti-venin is they may have a fatal allergic reaction to future treatments should they get bitten again. Apparently the anti-venin for canines is cultured using horse serum and according to my Vet at the time. about 65% of dogs will become allergic to the serum and cannot be treated again.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
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Duuuuuuude! Bottle of vinager does the trick just the same. No need to have your bud pee on ya...and they have to be ready to go too. You know, it's not like it's on call. At least for me.
Snake adversion training. I do it for my pointer. She gets the vaccine too. Doc said that he's seen dogs get hit on the tongue and survive after the vaccine. Ao far we been lucky, but a friend of ours had their field lab get bit and it was $3700 later before they got their dog back. Now it does appear some of that was the emergency vet's fault; poor blood chemistry monitoring. I would get the number of an emergency vet center that knows how to handle snake bites. In San Diego that's La Mesa emergency pet center off JacksonDr.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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The "vaccine" has also been developed for horses, and they are generally a F*%k of a lot more expensive to treat than dogs. My question evolved: why not a snakebite vaccine for humans?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 21, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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A final comment, re: dogs. It really shouldn't be an either-or choice, but both vaccine and aversion training are in order.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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I'm still not convinced about the 'vaccine'. Gonna stick with the preventative strategy for right now, with aversion training and close supervision/leash whenever realistically possible.
(The owner of the Aussie mix who lost her pup regularly let her dog run loose in a relatively 'wild' area. I encountered her at least once this way...I don't have the nerve to ask her if this was the case on that fateful day.)
In the event of an actual bite, I've identified the emergency vets that carry the antivenin. Unfortunately, they are all at least an hour away...that's not encouraging, esp. for a 30 lb pup like Max.
Spiny injuries (urchins, dorsal fin spines, stingrays) usually get pain relief from heat- it denaturizes the toxin. Apply as much heat as you can stand (immersion is ideal) for at least an hour, then aggressively clean and debride the wound- infection is very common.
Nematocyst stings (corals, anemones, jellyfish) usually get pain relief from a dilute acidic solution, such as vinegar- this is the theoretic origin of the human urine treatment approach. Rinse first with salt water to remove as many nematocysts as possible (not fresh- the osmotic difference will produce more injections.)
Don't pee on your patient. Though if you do, at least one of you will feel better.
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