Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
Ronaldo, and your people didn't exist before cartoons on color TV?
so you're sort of Ronaldo viene tarde a la fiesta
by the way Ron, you do like the "Mr. Potato head" schtick, don't you...
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
All the time growing up we believed that the first ascent crated a route, which is a different thing than just climbing the rock, at least when bolts were involved. The "route" involved or necessitated varying degrees of commitment, jeopardy, courage, skill, mental mastery, and so forth, and was in essence a challenge set down by the first ascentionists for others to try and meet - or not. You either sacked it up and met the challenge, or you didn't. End of argument. We could endlessly argue the merits of sacking it up, but any way you shake it, if you didn't accept the challenge as is and instead backed off, there was never any question that, despite all the rational arguments to the contrary, the person who backed off simply wasn't up to the route. No harm there. Nobody does them all. I certainly did not.
But verily, and slowly, a "route" became simply a climb on rock once a preponderance of people backed off and balked. The route was asking too much from people, more than a route had any right to ask, and so the route had to be ignored and reduced to a climb, where anything goes, and all manner of poultroons granted their own selves the rights to do exactly as they pleased. And boldness be damned.
The one incontrovertible thing about those who either backed off or disparaged the original route is they simply were not up for the challenge that the FA proscribed. People can argue quite convincingly that there is no justification for a route they find beyond their comfort level, but the simple and indeniable fact remains: They were not up to it.
There are so few such routes left out there that nobody can argue that dumbing down the boldness on a necky route is anything but a wanton act of cowardice. Just hike over a feet Buster Brown, and keep your paws off the adult fare.
JL
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Rights! Yeah, to take credit for going where no one had gone before....and then it becomes public domain. If those that follow treat your route differently maybe Saint Peter won't allow them entrance, or, then again, maybe he will. It's just rock climbing folks....something a lot of people who pontificate here don't do anymore.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
Donini, I take exception to the statement about pontificating.
I choose to bloviate when I rant!
|
|
7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
|
|
That was an awesome post Mr. Long.
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
1. An FA of a sport route (bolted or mostly bolted) is an act of creation. It is for others that you bolt the way. Taking time to make sure the route is worth the investment and building it in a responsible way that respects the natural resource. Make it safe, but not overly safe. The clips should be at natural stances and protect areas that reasonably need protection.
2. If you climb a route that is protected purely by natural protection, it is not all marked up by chalk showing the holds, and if you do not follow a guide to find it, you are doing an FA for yourself. More and more I tend to leave the guide in the car or at home on the shelf, or not even bother getting the guide to an area (exception; buy Supertopo guides to support this site)
People, who are competative, worry about the numbers. If you climb a lot and have guts, you will climb hard numbers and impress people, who like you, are competative.
Wise people just climb to have fun and chanllenge themselves in the beautiful out doors.
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
I put up this moderate route: Hyperion
http://mountainproject.com/v/hyperion/106644599
It has a 5.7- crux and 25 feet and then rambles on for another 175 feet at about 5.2 so I put the bolts 20-30 feet apart. If you can pull the crux, you don't need more protection than that. I place all bolts by hand drilling after very carefully considering the stance and area to protect.
I would be seriously annoyed if someone filled in the run-out areas. In fact, someone did add a bolt to the crux move. It was just too scary for them at 5.6+.
I recently climbed this beautiful route: Rain Dance
http://mountainproject.com/v/raindance/105741569
Same size and rating. The full rope length 2nd pitch was easy 5.5 yet the author chose to place bolts every 4-6 feet the entire length. This is why I hate power drills. It's too easy. It feels grid-bolted. Not that that is a big deal. It's just bland, no spice at all.
Do I have a right to go and collect the hardware on this upper pitch and carefully, artfully, bring it down from 15 clips to a more reasonalble 8 or 9? How would you feel if I did that?
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
Mr Long's post nutshells it for me. Nicely written. Mr Donini as well.
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
They did it in their style, now I can do it in mine?
Ah yes…. Style. Therein lies the crux. Your problem, Mister Troll, is that you don't have any.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
Looking for choice holds in moss and lichen, that will hopefully stay attached to the rock massive. Peering ahead to possibilities of a drilling stance, where muscles will be fatigued, clinging and drilling a bolt hole, that finally is deep enough. Momentary relief as you clip in, looking ahead again for the passage and the search for a drilling stance.
What the hell am I talking about...
Moose, I once did a top-rope FA in the gym. First on it after the route setter finished.
|
|
craig morris
Trad climber
la
|
|
What if the FA is a free solo? Tuolumne Meadows had a few
|
|
Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
|
|
What if the FA puts in "too" many bolts...does that give later parties anymore or less "rights" to chop them?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
While I was totally trolling on my response, there is one basic truth in those who stumble along after the fact and refuse to honor the sanctity of the first ascent (a "route" does not exist, only a climb), and instead give themselves permission to reengineer the route according to their personal comfort level. And that truth is that they were not up to doing the route as they found it.
This is the one basic fact that gets glossed over by ethical or philosophical debates - all sounding so good and ritious. But the simple fact remains: Anyone changing an establised route was not up to doing it in it's original style. There is logic in wanting to retrobolt a "dangerous" route so others with less sack and courage (or stupidity, depending on POV) can enjoy the route. But ther eis little to defend such practice since "dangerous" routes are so rare and there are usually 100s or other routes that serve a person's desire to climb.
Climbing is one of the few endeavors where "style" has lost some of its meaing and significance over the decades. Again, the arguments for doing so all sound good - but that simple fact remains: I wansn't up for the route as is.
JL
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
I love hearing the rock jocks preach to the coir!
an F.A. who cares should put up stuff so people can enjoy!
almost being killed on a root is not style it's pure stupid.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
Everyone's a winner.
Everyone deserves a trophy.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
I am tempted to write a satiric piece on Wes' blog posting. It would be really funny, and all of you would really, really love it.
But, it would be a lot of work, with the risk of spell-checking errors created by my word processer and the confusion of mixed metaphors and non sequiturs, so you cannot make me do it.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
I get a trophy? Bestest dude?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
All the time growing up we believed that the first ascent crated a route, which is a different thing than just climbing the rock, at least when bolts were involved. The "route" involved or necessitated varying degrees of commitment, jeopardy, courage, skill, mental mastery, and so forth, and was in essence a challenge set down by the first ascentionists for others to try and meet - or not. You either sacked it up and met the challenge, or you didn't
you missed my point JL. nature created boot flake, climbers climbed it. nature such as geologic forces and erosion creates the finest lines in climbing, climbers dont create those lines, they climb them. in other words i am always more awed by what nature has provided us than what humans do to it.
these thoughts are not opposing to respecting the style of a FA. just merely a clarification of what is creation.
if you create holds, it is altering nature and in my book unacceptable. in my mind the best lines are always follwing what nature has already provided, whether it is a fine crack system or a series of smears and friction that allows humans to challenge themselves during the ascent. heop that clears things up.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
If this weren't such an obvious troll, I'd be tempted to join in seriously. Instead, I'll join in the fun (which many trolls are).
Of course a first ascentionist has rights, and John Gill has already stated them -- mostly. We retain some restrictions, even on how we accomplish a first ascent. We may not use power drills in wilderness areas, for example. Beyond that, I can summarize first ascentionists' rights the same way I would summarize international law -- might makes right.
;-)
John
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Nice post, Kevin. When I first started climbing in 1967, there was a general consensus that not every climb was for every climber. Then, as now, bolts can make that statement untrue.
John
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!