Do first ascentionists have any rights?


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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:08am PT
sure, you can go an re-bolt anything you want...

but I doubt you'd be able to withstand the consequences, and I'm sure that your work wouldn't last very long...

and I highly doubt that you are hard enough to actually do the bolting (though it would be very fun to see your ass busted for using a power drill)

go forth and troll! if you actually even got outside and did what you threatened it would be infinitely more impressive than you ability to sit in front of a terminal and type in your wet-dream fantasy, a fantasy that you are incapable of realizing, and that you actually have no interest or desire in realizing.


Sport climber
Sonora Ca
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:13am PT
keyboard courage, dogs bark the caravan moves on

Trad climber
el portal
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:14am PT
Its hard to take you seriously on an ethics post where you use other people's photos without credit or permission.

This whole thing smells like a troll.

When you climb bolted routes from the ground up you are committing to the climb as it is: run-out, dangerous, safe, whatever. If you want a sure thing you can probably spend your entire life climbing lines of natural splitters that have a minimum of hardware. Then you will save yourself the handwork, time, and money that altering routes requires.

Additionally, because you are generalizing about all climbing areas your thoughts are at best vague abstractions that have little to do with individual and diverse climbing areas. Each place comes with its own individual ethics. Sense of place and history is key to the practice of rock climbing and one of the things that gives it meaning. Climbers connect directly with the Earth Body through touch and movement and community.

Also, the climbing world already has one sarcastic, parody loving writer named James and your bland imitation of his style is kind of like that way you posted that StoneMaster photo that doesn't belong to you.

In any case , thanks for the five minutes of entertainment away from my schoolwork.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:20am PT
This whole thing smells like a troll.

It is a troll. A well known troll. A tired troll.

Take thewesleysummers as seriously as you wish. It certainly queued up a rant this time!

The rant is a troll too btw.


Grey Matter
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:21am PT
At my local crag, some of the first ascenders are forming a property rights LLC / 501c4 Someone has got to defend our inherent right to continued use of this range without interference. It is based on lessons learned from NV militia success, and the bank bailout. Each time a route is altered, the gov will pay us to restore its cultural integrity status.
Although it will be nominally non-profit, numerous financial benefits will accrue to investors.
sandstone conglomerate

sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:23am PT
wesleysummers, what is your take on free-soloing at the gym?

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2014 - 10:27am PT
I don't allow it in my gym.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:29am PT
Ed. Lol
sandstone conglomerate

sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 10:38am PT
no plastic free-soloing? doesn't sound real ballsy.
i was on a bolted trail leading to a bolted climb. was it excessive? no. clipping was a pain in the ass though because i can walk 120 ft. pretty quick and the rope got dirty. made the day really long.

Jul 7, 2014 - 11:13am PT
I bet Wesley's last name isn't even summers.

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Lame Troll.....

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Those doing FAs are gods and have absolute rights to their creations, just as God has absolute right to His.

Such gods should defend their FAs with all means necessary, including rocket launchers, grenades, or whatever. Such spirited defense is the ONLY way to keep FAs pristine!

State of Mine
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
what the FA establishes is a style that worked to create the route.


climbers did not "create" anything.

Nature created the route, and some climbers just happened to climb it first. unless of course you chipped holds and left your "mark".

seems like your emotions got involved and took over your intellect.

lost, far away from Poland
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
The FFA I did were all done on top rope. I don't want anybody to put any bolts on my routes.

The style of the first ascentionist must be preserved!

sandstone conglomerate

sharon conglomerate central
Jul 7, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
were you helmeted?

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jul 7, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
Toprope FAs are imaginary.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 7, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
the route exists without climbers?
an interesting concept.

perhaps there is a discussion of "ownership" that would be interesting...

Though the Earth…be common to all Men, yet every Man has a Property in his own Person. This no Body has any Right to but himself. The Labour of his Body, and the Work of his Hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever then he removes out of the State that Nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his Labour with, and joyned to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his Property. It being by him removed from the common state Nature placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it, that excludes the common right of other Men. (Locke 1988 [1689], II, para. 27)

Locke's response to the OP question would be: Yes, they own the route.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jul 7, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
No rights, that's why some dude is selling other dudes' old bolts here on ST. I think retro bolting things is a good idea. It drives lunatics on this site nuts.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jul 7, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
Credit: someone else

Rights to wear tights? NO!

Jul 7, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
Great first day of posting, Ronnie. Way to splash onto the scene
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