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| Messages 1 - 23 of total 23 in this topic |
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Historic, maybe, but bolts are not "badass" in my view.
#1 - Yvon Choinard stamped homemade hanger with a sleeve/nail style bolt(only nail exists in the back of the hanger. This mega classic piece is from one of America's leading environmentalists(founder of Patagonia). From Chouinard/Herbert route on the Sentinel. When did you take this one off of Sentinel?
There was a nice one there when I did the climb in 2008,
and we left it in place.
Elmar Stefke had already replaced all the relevant bolts years before that.
Finally, given that you were kicked out of ASCA for powerbolting,
it's not too cool that you state you and your partners have replaced over 2000 bolts in Yosemite.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oh boy...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Erik,
Chris McNamara traded me a lot of his old pulled hangers from the walls of Yosemite about 12 years ago. I will gladly accept any items you want to preserve for the Karabin Museum. What do you want for these mangled rusty gems?
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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I added a bunch more stuff - a little something for everyone. I have a lot more than what is shown too.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Good call Clint. For what it is worth, the ASCA only provides bolt replacers with bolts, hangers, drill bits, and patch material. Who bought those thousands of feet of rope we fix? Hammers, drill holders, bolt pullers, and all that trick stuff we use to get the job done? I can't imagine the amount you spend on gas alone to drive all the way over here any and every time I ask for help. Most seasons that means almost every weekend for months. Yea Eric, we all spend our own money.
Roger Brown
ASCA bolt replacer.
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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I think Klaus speaks the thoughts of many.
This stuff is either trash or historic, and if it's thought to be historic it should belong to the community. Ken may have enough bolts and hangers for any displays, but if these are sold, the money(or most of it) should be donated to the museum…which, so far as I know, still doesn't have a permanent locale in yosemite even after Ken's 22 years of effort (I may be off on the years of effort but I think that's what he told me the other day).
Ken currently has some stuff on display in the bay area. I believe at the California Historical Society until next January.
Thanks for all the helpful bolt replacement you've done Erik. I enjoy the safety of most of the bolts you've placed, but could do without the unnecessary ones and extras.
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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I guess maybe folks, including myself, are being slightly too indirect. You've interpreted some posts as "if it was me I'd do it differently", when a more accurate interpretation would be "I don't like what you're doing, I think you should do something different" Doing things publicly opens you to criticism and knowing how people feel is useful in planning your actions. But no worries, I'm not feeling super extreme, we all have to survive financially in the modern world and every "job" has its ethical debates, including most/all the ones I've ever had. I'm just old school and look for work when I'm having financial difficulties and want to earn money. I know I miss out on all sorts of modern creative ways of getting $ more enjoyably and easily.
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jstan
climber
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If it is OK of a person, unilaterally, to strip out old historic hardware and then make a buck off it
why is it not alright for someone to strip out new hardware and resell that?
If you tested the old stuff to make a decision as to whether it needed to be taken out, that would be one thing. But you simply assume you are the ultimate arbiter.
Anyone can do that.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Discretion would be wise when removing historic pro. The protection belonged to the person placing it. Now it belongs to the climbing community. In my not so humble opinion. Return historic pieces to the original owner, or give it to the archives to be preserved for history. Photographs documenting location prior to removal would be nice. Private collection may be a good avenue to acquire classic pieces on the market.
Just make sure to will collections to the community when you croak.
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Matt's
climber
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Erik-- it sounds like you want to defray some your rebolting costs.
Some ideas
1) crowd-funding to pay to rebolt specific routes?
2) mechanism for people to retroactively pay for routes you have rebolted?
I think that trying to sell the stuff you pulled off the wall leaves a bad taste in most people's mouth.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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3) How bout a way to make him pay for the routes he has retrobolted.
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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I've replaced a lot of bolts dude. I did what i wanted with the old ones...nuthin. They fell off the cliff, poofed from my car or house, or are sitting in the bottom of my gear bins. I've thought of rounding them up and giving them to someone like Ken, but I'm scatterbrained and haven't got around to it.
Im not jealous of your rusty hardware collection or retrobolting skills. I just said i don't like you selling supposed historic stuff you collected while doing supposed community service, for your personal gain. It just seems lame.
When i saw your post it was so classicly ridiculous. Like advertising cans of wild trout on a catch and release flyfishing forum (sorry i cant come up with a better analogy, but there probably is one). Apparently you don't admit to seeing the irony in trying to sell something for its historic significance to a bunch of people who probably think such things should be in a museum. Its like ransoming hostages. I don't personally feel that strongly about it in the case of old bolts and hangers.
Sometimes your posts just seem like you're trying to be as dorkily agitating as possible. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, but most people try not to publicly do things their audience doesn't like. I don't know you that well but based on your accomplishments and our few interactions I think you're too sharp to be completely oblivious to this situation.
Well thanks for the entertainment while i lay around recovering from a cold. This ought to motivate me to not look at supertopo again for quite some time...
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couchmaster
climber
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jakew said: "Apparently you don't admit to seeing the irony in trying to sell something for its historic significance to a bunch of people who probably think such things should be in a museum. Its like ransoming hostages."
Ouch. That struck. Whats the solution then?
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ECF
Big Wall climber
So Far East I might as well be dead
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The want of money has compromised the integrity of many men.
The replacement of belay, and FA protection bolts is something most rational people can agree on, when presented with all the facts.
The replacement of subsequent ascent bolts, is open for debate on a case by case basis. It is unfair to have a blanket policy here, because perhaps the FA was done by a psychopath (Beyer comes to mind...). Treading on ground first does not transfer ownership of the land to he who treads.
Methods used are judged by all, but only truly understood by those who have actually done it. Field expediency trumps morality imposed by others when lives are on the line, especially when the imposed morality was never voted on by the community. Stealth and discretion are advised in those circumstances.
Although done for altruistic reasons, the subsequent commercialization taints the perception of intent. No one thinks it was done with the goal of selling the debris for profit, but PR is about perception, not factual data.
On a personal note, I consider you a friend. Friends don't have to agree on everything, but it is their place to speak up when someone may be crossing a line that will damage themselves or the community at large. If you are desperate for money, you could put these on eBay, but to advertise them here is not something I would advise.
Also, putting a dollar value on something like this opens a Pandora's box of vandalism. I point to the petroglyphs hacked from the cliffs for profit.
While on one hand, removal and utilization of the same hole has it's proponents, one must also be aware that it destroys the historic value of the item. While hanging from bright shiny 3/8ths bolts, looking at FA spinner star-dryvin's is a far more profound experience, than seeing them mounted in a display case while standing on flat ground.
So how much are we talking here? 'Cuz if these are worth hundreds, I'm quitting my job and taping a clip-in loop to my crowbar. There's gold in them thar hills...
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I could not agree with klaus more. Give it all to Ken. This should not be for your benefit or profit.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Erik,
Presently I have over 1200 hangers in my museum. Actually more like 1800 new and historic hangers, but 1200 are different than each other. For the Karabin Climbing Museum I am only seeking a few certain hangers 3 of which are Dolt or homemade. You can send the thousands of hangers to Ken, but what is Ken going to do with thousands of rusty mostly Leeper and SMC hangers? Nice display, 2000+ hangers which all look alike. And now Ken is expected to create displays with them, and insure them yearly as well? With what time and what money?
Erik you should be proud of the work you did replacing the hangers. I know that ripping old hangers out is a dedicated ton of work. A lot of these posts I see are attacking your identity. People want you to give give give and receive nothing for your personal efforts. In the past me and Chris with the ASCA came up with a solution of hangers for hangers. I sent him boxes of hangers and he sent me boxes of used hangers back. I was the museum guy doing museum stuff, and he was the rebolter guy doing rebolting stuff. I even offered him money for the shipping costs.
I feel that you are doing the hard work that most climbers avoid, and people should respect you for your passion. The least people can do is send you boxes of bolts and hangers to keep your drive alive. Not condemn you for what you end up doing with those past rusty time bombs. No matter what, in the future all of these museums will end up under the same roof. Keep up the good work!
Marty
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jul 10, 2014 - 08:57am PT
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Marty,
Good post. I have over 2500 Yosemite bolts/hangers in my collection, each one in it's own baggie with date, route, pitch, and which bolt it was on the pitch. This information is also on a shipping tag attached to the hanger. This is done usually on the same day the bolt is replaced. A daily log book is also kept. A little more work than your basic stamp or baseball card collection, but I think the historic nature requires it.
That said, this collection is my collection and I can and will do with it as I please. My choice, period.
If I get myself killed out there, my choice is to let Ken go thru it all and take anything he wants to display. For example, I really don't think he will want every bolt/hanger from the SFHD, but he may want the original anchor from the top of the 13th pitch.
After that my wife can do whatever she wants to with the rest. E-Bay? Sure whatever she wants, the collection will be her's.
During Face-lift last season at the bolt/ hanger display some people said I should sell the collection and give the money to the ASCA. I said I already gave, they should sell some of the coolest stuff they own and give that money to the ASCA.
I think selling this stuff for personal gain is lame, and I strongly disagree with Eric's methods of bolt replacement.
But..... that is his stuff and he can do what he wants with it.
Roger Brown
ASCA Bolt Replacer
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:02am PT
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^Good posts Marty and Roger.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jul 10, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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Erik, I will offer $1 for each good used leeper that I will reuse in the desert for another 25 years.
I will offer "going rate for plated new fixe hangers" for new old stock leepers for the same deal. I am going to use these on routes no one will repeat for at least a decade and then only once a decade.
A hanger, is a hanger in my world.
The rest of the bent, rusted, broken, stretched, small hole common hangers need to be melted to make new steel- they have zero value except as scrap.
Of course, I see no value in collecting stuff- I use all gear I own- they are tools. I cannot believe someone would sell or offer to buy old crap and I am more stunned day by day with ebay auctions and what useless pins, first gen camalots, and foxheads sell for.
Old stuff needs to go to Marty, Ken, or Stéphane where people can gawk at the jingus stuff we used.
I must admit, I bought a single auction of hundreds of pins on ebay, and sold sets of angles and arrows and a set of 2-6 crack n ups and some old ass kbs (1960's) to recoup my cost for the lot. I pounded, fixed, and gave away a hundred of those to friends to boost their racks.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 10, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
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Whoa, popcorn thread!
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| Messages 1 - 23 of total 23 in this topic |
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