Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace

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Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
My statement: Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace means do not kill yourself or run up a big hospital bill to satisfy the requirements of Leaving No Trace. Such behavior( assuming your have information on options) is foolish or not rational.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Civility? If you are bothered by what I say it is your hang up, not mine. The Founding Fathers were well aware that many sore losers cry foul. Some peoples feelings get hurt because they do not understand they have put some dumb ideas on the table.

A typical heaping of scorn from the self-proclaimed Grand Arbiter of What Is and Is Not Dumb and newly-minted constitutional scholar.

We all do have our own hangups. One of mine is that my possibly quite few remaining years are too short to trade insults with people who are incapable of discussing anything without them.

I'm satisfied with my sophomoric statement, riddled as it may be with paranoia-inducing sly rhetorical devices, weighed down as it is, for the keenly perceptive, with hidden Aristotelian syllogisms which need to be replaced by some alternate probilistic logic systems, the whole sorry mess ending up as just my latest Dumb Idea.

I'm fine with it as it stands. It isn't my first Dumb Idea and, with any luck, will not be my last. But I'm not gonna argue with the Grand Arbiter about anything. I've already violated my principles in this regard by posting this.

Let me add that I have great respect for the scope of the Grand Arbiter's climbing achievements, most especially in the realms of trad he is now so busy rejecting. And not only have I have not attacked in any way his actions at Reese, for example, but have in fact offered arguments that provide support for what he's up to there.

So y'all have a good day, and maybe we'll be seeing each other out on the rocks, where I have every expectation that, unlike this deepening cesspool, congeniality will reign.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
My statement: Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace means do not kill yourself or run up a big hospital bill to satisfy the requirements of Leaving No Trace. Such behavior( assuming your have information on options) is foolish or not rational.

Thanks, Dingus. That and your game theory reference help. I'm still missing the disagreement, though. It seems that both rgold and you emphasize the need to deal with ranges of probabilities, not point values.

I think, though, that any game theory matrix I would construct has any number of possible conduct rows or columns, one of which would be "don't climb the route." As a specific illustration, I remember when The Void on the Cookie Cliff was a new route. I was told that jstan backed off trying to repeat it after he concluded that he could not protect it without driving pitons (as done in the FA) or adding bolts. (jstan: if this is untrue, please let me know.) In that case, both safety and leave no trace triumphed. They aren't always mutually exclusive.

John
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
My friend uses a shoelace for a belt.

He claims it is safe and leaves no trace.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
John,

It seems that both rgold and you emphasize the need to deal with ranges of probabilities, not point values.


Yes, and I am in agreement with rgold in many areas of his post. I choose specifically to address our one and main point of friction on the topic of Jstan's idea of rationality and safety.

Correct, you measure the various outcomes with the product of your values of safety and whatever you want. Certainly having two constraints brings more definition to your solution and too many constraints (more weight) makes for an often no-go situation.



Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
rgold,

thanks for the scolding.

The sooner we get rid of “leave no trace” the quicker we’ll get down to the real issues . . .

exactly

jstan

climber
Jun 26, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
jstan: if this is untrue, please let me know

JE:
You are asking me to remember something?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Indeed I am!

What do we want?
Better memory!
When do we want it?

Want what??

John
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 26, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
I prefer to bury my back-country turds

Barely so you create a turd trap, or deep and respectable?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jun 26, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Deep and respectable, in a place that won't flood out and wash turds down into water supplies. I will walk a long ways to find the perfect place to create my little turd nest.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 26, 2014 - 11:25pm PT

Mark Force, I respect Freedom of Speech. Civility? If you are bothered by what I say it is your hang up, not mine. The Founding Fathers were well aware that many sore losers cry foul. Some peoples feelings get hurt because they do not understand they have put some dumb ideas on the table.

And thanks for the compliment.

Dingus, I too respect freedom of speech and defend your right to exercise your free speech regardless of how illogical, tasteless, bombastic, ignorant, and unmannered it may be.

It is boorish that you choose to flame those you disagree with rather than engage in rational discourse. Don't use the Founding Fathers card to justify yourself. Just because you have the right to free speech doesn't mean you're not an as#@&%e when you abuse the right.

My feelings are not hurt, you can say what you want; no big deal. I've tried to make sense of your arguments and rationalizations and can't - there's no sense there to be made other than it's generally reasonable to not risk life or limb without some real cause to do so. Got it.

I stand that civility, including civil discourse, and respect are worthwhile values in society and they make society healthier without hindering free speech. I also hold that respecting the common domain through minimizing our damage/impact when using it is a worthwhile value. Arguing over what that principle should or a shouldn't be called is a stupid exercise.


You have some impulse control problems that you could stand to work through. A lot of folks here have been rooting for you to see it and fix it, but you're too busy flaming (dissing John Stannard? Really?) everyone who pisses you off. I paid you a compliment and you have to come back with that horsesh#t? Kinda sad. Being argumentative is not the same as augmentation and being rude is, well, just being rude.

But, it spite of that stuff, I think you're a nicer guy than you come off as here. Again, I respect your low impact ethics, except for the bolting everything thing. And, it's cool that you're still climbing hard.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 06:38am PT
Mark Force,

I gooogled "abusing freedom of speech" and came accross this:

Freedom of speech is the right to speak freely without fear of retribution
. Vague? In the end what is retribution? I suspect it has to mean bodily harm or imprisonment and destruction personal of property.

No doubt you have added[requested to me] some layers to freedom of speech by adding "not hurting someone's feeling", civility etc.

You accuse me of low self control. I say to you in analogy form: "If porn offends you don't go there". So tell me about your self control.

Feelings Hurt? From AA to Zen we learn in various form and ways, "And this thought too will pass". If the feeling doesn't go away maybe you are obsessed?

If my posting of bolting near cracks on sport routes hurts someone else s feelings, those action of actually bolting and talking about bolting on the internet are what I am legally permitted to do.

And Mark if your feelings are hurt by my bolting I am not going to cease and desist because of that. Am I bullying you or are you bullying me in a subtle form?

Mark it seems like you could grow up a little more? i.e. in understanding the workings of your mind. My feeling are hurt all the time. I see a squirrel get hit by a car. I see an oil cans and filter in the street gutter. A dullie diesel's smoke triggers my asthma etc etc... I let the show in my mind pass... Somehow, I do pay attention to what matters.

And now you tell me: Respect others feelings. ?? I do not tell them to change 'em. I don't know what the fuk goes on in others heads.

Really, I can read a face and see when one is hurt but words on the web? If I took them very seriously I would be a fool.

Would like to hear from you a solution to the situation where you tell what you are doing which causes someone's to get hurt feelings and how is it that you respect their feelings?





Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 07:40am PT
DMT,

I have thought of this.

I would not have listened to Kamp's [1971]and sooner after the get-go started rap bolting overhanging faces. In 1976 some buds of mine rap/aid bolted a line to become [briefly] (their words) the hardest line in the Needles. That is the line was aid bolted to get around the Cali Rules for need of free climbs to be ground up. They could not climb the bolt line, but touted me all the time, "I'll bet you cannot do our aid climb free". I did it one day after some 5 tries. But the opportunities on Devils Tower intervened for some 7 years on what I would do for safety on overhanging climbs. I had to outwardly announce rap bolting as okay by example. I cleared this hurtle without a scratch. Now, I just needed the right media to work with, a total learning experience.

My Rap bolting for sport lines started in the Needles. This was the greatest Stealth show you ever seen. A silencer for the drill, several 2 way radios, very early morning work, camo hangers, cleaning the dust with water and pen names or handle for the radios. I was Todd Skinner and one my friends was Paul P. All went well, no one had any idea. All this went on in the TRAD BASTION of the Needles. But these forays were so exciting. Great adventure and an unheard of level of intrigue. A whole story in itself.

Soon I found Reese and some year later realized how much the media matters. The Needles rock was not suited to overhanging sport climbs but Reese was. When I fist seen Reese Rock it seemed of little use, no continuous cracks, and I could not see the plethora of hidden holds. I bought with me expectations of more Devils Tower and Needles on those early days.

In the end and looking back it could not have been much different for it took part of life time to clearly refute what I had been told to me about how climbing should be done. The youth easily follow what I do.

I think the trump card was playing in the background all time for on first encounter with Kamps I ask him of how you would protect overhanging climbs using his scheme of "no aid". I did add some bolts to my runout climbs of the day.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 07:45am PT
Randizzy,

if it is porn site and you are bothered by port why go there and hurt your feelings?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 07:50am PT
Yes port. It is cheap wine.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:01am PT
jammer,

you are thinking--good question.

Please give me a little to time to cool my finger pads of this typing. I will be back. I am a slow writer.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:10am PT
jammer,

climbing and placing gear are two entirely? different skill sets. I think those having no gear placing skills are still entitled to a safe place to climb on real rock.

more to follow.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:35am PT
Jammer,

Sport climbers only carry draws.

Suppose a 110 ft [sport?] climb has ten bolts and 3 short crack sections that take gear. Is this climb sport or Trad?

Add the three bolts in the zones near the crack sections and you have 13 bolts. And you have 20,000 pissed off trad climbers who do not even use the area.

Obviously I cannot take LNT to seriously when it comes to sport climbing walls, for without bolts we would not have safe climbs.

You say, stay on track and I ask for which question.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:39am PT
Randizzy,

we have already discussed top roping. Rather than rewrite the same answer I suggest you familiarize your self with the postings in this thread?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Jammer,

you are asking me to second guess what the people that are advocating LNT really mean? I do not care to second guess their catchy little phrase. Ask them what they mean not me.
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