Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace

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Messages 1 - 123 of total 123 in this topic
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:30am PT
In the end most of us are rational.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:32am PT
Compromise and camo your hangers.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:35am PT
locker,


I see that as the End.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:37am PT
clinker,

if there were a stealth paint that good we couldn't see the hangers on lead.
jstan

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:38am PT
In the end most of us are rational.

Not clear at all. If one values safety above all else, one would not climb.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:39am PT
Randizzy,

and to your point? I said "most" should it be some as in sport climber do and trad climbers don't?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:42am PT
Jstan,

Your are physicist? Think like one, okay. As I say I would like some 99.9% certainty that after doing this climb I will be around for one more.

What number would you put on this for your climb??

jstan

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:48am PT
We have some wrong side of the bed here.

If all people are rational( and value safety above all else) we may conclude no climbers are rational.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:48am PT
Randizzy,

The insult is in the eye of the receiver mind.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:49am PT
if there were a stealth paint that good we couldn't see the hangers on lead.

Camo with a locating chip in each bolt. Equip the leader with a locating device and problem solved. This would be safer if night falls while climbing. The blind may also be able to lead such a route safely.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Jstan,

you are using exclusive And/or logic set theory. Get on the Contiuumn.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:52am PT
clinker,

Good idea, but I am not that much of techno weenie.
jstan

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:53am PT
Is this thread rational? Its rationale is not the only thing escaping us.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:55am PT
"In the end most of us are rational. "

Hmm, perhaps knott if this thread is any indication. Usually they stay on track for the first page and go to hell by the 2nd. Becoming irrational as hysteria and emotional finger pointing take over. This one, however, with the exception of jstan and yourself of course, already turned off the rational direction it appears.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 08:56am PT
Jstan,

rational is choosing the best of several less than optimal options.

You want to make the matter an all or none situation. Fine. I do not live my life that way.
John M

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:59am PT


you made it an all or nothing argument when you said

Safety trumps leave no trace..

That is a black and white statement
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 09:02am PT
John M,

Some things are 100% in a continuum measurement. Or at least some 99.9%. That value 99.9999999999...% is permitted by this type of measuring and for you?

If you disagree with using such criteria tell us how? an example?

John M

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 09:21am PT
I have done things that I didn't have a 99.9 percent surety that I would be safe. I enjoyed them. I have also pushed it beyond my comfort level and didn't like it. I don't look for those situations as much as some do on this forum, but I certainly appreciate that desire.

You,, Dingus, seem to want to be damned certain you walk away.. Okay.. I got that. And you place it higher then other priorities. Some people place other things as a higher priority. Can you appreciate their point of view?

Some people say.. I can't climb that safely without putting in a bolt. I will leave it for someone else who might be able to climb it safely. That point of view is more important in an area with lots of climbers, because there is bound to be someone who would like the challenge. In a area with fewer people, and so much rock, it takes a seat further back.

just my two cents dude. you seem to want to flame anyone who disagrees with you.

Edit: heading out the door..
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 09:26am PT
John M,

good thoughts.

just my two cents dude. you seem to want to flame anyone who disagrees with you.

I do have a terse, no non-sense way of getting to the point. Perhaps you experience "flame" . Non here.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2014 - 09:31am PT
John M,

I do not change anyone else's routes except in Sport Climbing Routes where that action is permitted for safety.

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 05:02am PT
John M,

to me:

you made it an all or nothing argument when you said

Safety trumps leave no trace..

That is a black and white statement

In case you didn't notice:

leave no trace..

...is a black and white statement

The idea of Leave No trace is not mine but has been used against bolts on climbs.


I am saying that when push comes to shove, most of us with the enough information will choose some safety considerations over Leaving NO Trace. And in the end leave a trace.

i am not so sure about the wording "most" with this ST group.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 23, 2014 - 05:40am PT
Bolts are not usually placed with the idea of making a climb safer, they are most often placed to create a climb that would not exist without them......sport climbing dudes. I climbed several sport climbs yesterday near my home in Ouray. There are maybe two hundred sport climbs in the area on rock formations that would be devoid of routes without bolts.
These cliffs also sport scars from mining in the late 19th Century....unlikely candidates for "leave no trace" status.
"Leave no trace" is an important component of the conservation movement but should be applied situationally, it may not be appropriate everywhere.
Let's call a spade a spade in new route development and not put bolting into the context of providing saftey....bolting, for the most part, is a creational tool.
Sport climbs have opened up vast amounts of rock to pleasureable climbing....the question should be where sport climbing development is appropriate and where it is not.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 05:46am PT
Bolts are not usually placed with the idea of making a climb safer

Oh Really? How safe would your ascent of sport line be without them?

If sport climbs had half as many bolts would they be safer??

Bolts, yes a creational tool to make sport climbing safe so you won't deck.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 23, 2014 - 05:50am PT
True....without bolts most sport climbs would be suicidal solos but the bolts where put there with the INTENTION of creating a climb where formerly one would not exist, fine with me.....in most cases.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 05:58am PT
donni,

Yes a point in case is the Black Hills Needles where without bolts only 3rd classing would exist. That form of "gear", Bolts contributes insurance that we will not hit the ground when using a rope. Smells of safety to me.

the bolts where [were] put there with the INTENTION of creating a climb
AND making the route safer than no bolts.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 23, 2014 - 06:33am PT
rational is choosing the best of several less than optimal options.
God, I'm way too rational all day long at work; I don't go climbing to be 'rational'.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 07:22am PT
donni,

the bolts contribute nothing to making a line any more climbable.


You can tope rope a yet to be bolted line. A successful tope roping certainly establishes that that zone is climbable.
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2014 - 07:57am PT
Dingus McGee -- "In the end most of us are rational."


Yes

But .... completely remain blind, stupid and in complete delusion of the truth ......
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 08:24am PT
Chim Chim,

there are more skills required of leading than a successful top roping.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Jun 23, 2014 - 08:35am PT
Chim-Chim,

Steep routes are very dangerous to top-rope. Much safer to lead.
pb

Sport climber
Sonora Ca
Jun 23, 2014 - 08:41am PT
Perhaps, after the routes been established. The Earth trumps all.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 08:52am PT
Ron,

acceptable when it is for you safety. Recently S Babits changed a bolt location at 4 Stories because he could not reach the clip from where a quite tall guy had set the original location,.


edit: heading out for 3 days of climbing.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jun 23, 2014 - 09:34am PT
Safety always trumps Leave No Trace.

Canyonlands National Park has about the strictest leave-no-trace climbing regulations in the US but even they are smart enough to allow safety to trump leaving no trace, see bold text:

http://www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/climbing.htm

"All climbing shall be free or clean-aid climbing with the following exceptions:

No new climbing hardware may be left in a fixed location; however, if a hardware item is unsafe, it may be replaced.
Protection may not be placed with the use of a hammer except to replace existing belay and rappel anchors and bolts on existing routes, or for emergency self-rescue.
If an existing software item (sling, etc.) is unsafe, it may be replaced (software that is left in place must match the rock surface in color)."

What the argument really is about is where should a climber reach the point where their safety is in question. My answer would be that is vey much an individual decision.

For the level of acceptable fixed hardware for any given area, local climber consensus is required because one person's emergency/safety anchor is another person's convenience anchor.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 23, 2014 - 10:13am PT
I think climbers who argue for the preservation of whatever the hell trad climbing has become end up weakening their case and distorting the argument by invoking environmental ethics like “leave no trace.” I’m not saying that it isn’t a truly wonderful thing for climbers to do everything they can to minimize their impacts, but let’s face it, climbing irrevocably alters the environment in many small and, in popular areas, some big ways and I’ve never heard any climber, anywhere, ever argue for restricting climbing because of its impacts.

The sooner we get rid of “leave no trace” the quicker we’ll get down to the real issues and away from dichotomies like the one in the title of this thread, which in my view is a distraction caused by trad climbers who are, perhaps for cultural reasons, skirting an essential component of trad climbing, which is risk. Not all trad climbs are or have to be “risky,” but without the potential for risk, there is no trad climbing, and most of the arguments surrounding the issue of using, adding, and chopping bolts have to do with the preservation of the level of risk nature originally provided.

Stannard is, of course right. Dingus began by proposing an absolute standard of rationality and then flamed Stannard for incorporating that standard into his response. An activity that embraces risk as one of its fundamental ingredients can’t be said to be rational if one insists on a context-free concept of rationality. Activities like climbing and, say, base-jumping suggest that there is also a contextual concept of rationality, which is to say that the participants embrace certain elements of risk and then go about resolving the issues that arise in the most rational possible way.

Seen in this light, the debate has nothing to do with rationality; it is at least partially about different contexts. The sport climber wants to eliminate as much risk as possible in the pursuit of pure difficulty. (We now have a new category, plaisir climbing, popular in Europe and not without its own controversies, that wants to eliminate as much risk as possible in the pursuit of pure fun. I think we are beginning to see some of this trend in the threads on the subject here.) It would be irrational in the context of sport climbing to, say, bolt a route from top down and in so doing create dangerous situations. The trad climber wants to confront difficulty in the context of the constraints imposed by nature, which means fully embracing the risks those constraints might entail. Within that context, the trad climber makes all kinds of rational decisions about how to protect, how far to move above protection, whether to advance or back off, and so on. There is nothing even remotely less rational about this, it is just that the accepted context for the application of rationality is completely different.

Let me emphasize again that I’m totally in favor of leaving as little trace as possible and have continually done as much as I can in my own climbing to live up to that ideal. I’ve advocated continually and with absolutely no noticeable effect for the use of chalk socks, which would minimize and in many cases almost eliminate the horrendous visual impact of chalk popular routes. When I climbed in the Needles in South Dakota, I went to whatever (irrational?) lengths necessary to descend from those pinnacles without ever leaving slings showing. So don’t get me wrong, leave no trace is worth aspiring to. It may be, to some extent, a byproduct of trad practices, but it really isn’t a fundamental principle of trad climbing and elevating it to that level simply pushes the real debate off-center.
John M

climber
Jun 23, 2014 - 10:27am PT
that wants to eliminate as much risk as possible in the pursuit of pure fun.

some people find risk to be part of the fun.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 23, 2014 - 10:31am PT
That's pretty much the whole point of my post. But the "fun" in plaisir climbing is a simpler type of fun, the fun of a family picnic or a trip to Disneyland.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 23, 2014 - 11:20am PT
I’ve never heard any climber, anywhere, ever argue for restricting climbing because of its impacts.


Really? I think a lot of climbers support restricting climbing when its impacts are deemed excessive. A few examples:

Respecting perigrine closures.
Not climbing on petroglyphs.
Not climbing the named arches.
Not publishing route info in certain areas in yosemite.

Not everyone agrees with them, but some climbers really rather would not climb at all in a particular place or style than cause certain negative impacts.

Even if "Leave no Trace" is a goal we can't or don't always attain, it doesn't mean that we should give up on minimizing our impacts when we can or that it's off base to consider someone who treads lightly as having better style than someone who creates a lot of impact. That's my opinion of what is better, and I don't expect consensus or even that this always holds true as an inflexible rule.

ETA: I realize I"m arguing your (rgold) statement and not necessarily your point. It's sort of directed at the enthusiasm for the hedonism of "if I had a good time, then it must be what's best for everyone" mentality that in many (others') posts.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 23, 2014 - 11:56am PT
Melissa,
Thank you for articulating the benefits of minimizing our footprint.

Leave no trace is an ideal; minimizing our impact on public lands that we alone don't own out of respect for other climbers and other user groups is a realistic and achievable reality.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 23, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Melissa, yes, you are arguing about the absolute nature of my statement and not addressing my point at all. But as far as that statement goes, I'm perfectly willing to concede that there are occasional exceptions, although even in the cases you mention, climbers' environmental motivations are confounded with the concerns about how bodies that control access might respond to climbing, so the idea that those examples demonstrate an extensive desire to leave no trace is questionable.

Add to that the vast amount of impacts caused by and fully accepted by trad climbers, not just erosion impacts, but extensive rappel tat, bolted belay anchors where natural anchors are available, all kinds of rappel routes where longer, more arduous, but arguably less impactful descents are available, and the grotesque and not at all impermanent blight of chalk, and the idea that leave no trace is of serious concern to the vast majority of trad climbers becomes absurd.

This is not to say that there are those who believe in the concept fervently and do what they can to make it more of a reality. But to re-emphasize my point, whether or not trad climbers manage their impacts, leave no trace can hardly be advanced as a foundational principle for trad climbing. It is perhaps a side-effect of the real motivations---after all trad climbing is the only genre that has the potential to leave no trace, even if it doesn't come very near that ideal most of the time. But organizing an argument about trad and sport distinctions around the concept of leave no trace is, I believe, bound to miss the point and lead to irrelevant dichotomies such as the title of this thread.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jun 23, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Let's start a new thread.


Safety Trumps Minimizing Your Trace



Once we step away from the more absolute, can we identify a scope of discussion?





fwiw, I'm not sure there is a natural world impact on climbing most of the named arches. It's more of an impact on access issues because they were closed in the first place, no?



Dingus McGee, are you trying identify the principles around which we can determine the scope of when Safety Trumps Minimizing my Traces (STMMT)?

Or are you specifically looking to refute some aspect of minimizing traces?


More commonly I hear the "plaisir" climbing justification as 'I just want a "fun" route.'


A lot of lot of lot people want fun routes! Me too!

I also want some appreciation for risk. That can be way fun too! I want to problem solve that risk. I want to intuit that risk and see what I'm capable of as I climb.

Can that be made into a guiding principle? Not without detail around both taking time to do top down routes (and doing them right!), and detail around what drives ground up approaches.

Scope the conversation!!!



edit, rgold's post just arrived, so I think more are to follow...
The Call Of K2 Lou

Mountain climber
North Shore, BC
Jun 23, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
Should I poop on top of the bear poop rather than bury it to show'em who's boss and decrease the chance of bear attacks?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 23, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
We have some wrong side of the bed here.

If all people are rational( and value safety above all else) we may conclude no climbers are rational.

When jstan and rgold were leaving their marks on east coast climbing, I would read about their exploits and views with admiration in Berkeley. Now, 45 years later, they again demonstrate their understanding. The real issue is over degrees, not absolutes. If we truly wanted to leave no trace, we would do almost no climbing, even unroped, because of the evidence of our passage on the lichens, the approach, and the oils we leave on the rock.

I feel a need, however, to remind the discussion that not all bolt placing creates sport routes. I did my early climbing at Pinnacles, before I thought I was ready for the real climbing in the Valley. The early bolt-protected climbs there, just like many bolt-protected Meadows routes, differ radically from any accepted definition of a sport route.

John
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jun 23, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
Great first bolting cracks , now lets leave a trace!!!

Why not be safe and leave no trace? Why must these things be mutually exclusive...Oh, wait someone is riled up because not everyone agrees with his ethics...or cause this was a troll...
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Jun 23, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Kev,

Your uninformed opinion grows tiresome. I'm going to Reese in July. How about you come out and check out all the "cracks" yourself and make a statement from knowledge instead of your misguided belief? Let me know. Stop being a dick.

As to leave no trace, it involves a whole lot more than the bolt count. Dennis has insisted that all visitors at Reese do not build a fire so there are no fire rings. He has spent a lot of time on trails so that erosion from braided trails does not exist. He insists that we camp on sand so that the juniper and native plants are not disturbed. Dennis has done work for the Nature Conservancy searching for and cataloging rare plants. What have you ever done? Anchors are painted metal, no ratty slings. Try to expand your mind and realize that bolts are necessary to climb faces with no natural protection and that we can minimize impact with prudent practices.
Oldfattradguy2

Trad climber
Here and there
Jun 23, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
Not spragging about routes on the internets and guidebooks would go a long way to leaving no trace...

A lot less people would go to many areas, this would reduce impacts.

Yeah, I know I am a hypocrite.
Laine

Trad climber
Reno, NV
Jun 23, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
I feel sorry for the young generations that seem to think safety is the foremost reward of climbing. The dumbing down of youth continues.

Being safer equals dumbing down? So when climbers saw the safety advantages of new climbing technology such as dynamic ropes, cams, etc., they embraced them because they were stupid?

If you saw a guy setting out to do a big route in Yose in hobnail boots, a swami belt, static rope, and some homemade pitons, you'd be like "Wow, now there's a fella with a good head on his shoulder"?

Or would you be like "the dude's cheese done slipped of his cracker"?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Jun 23, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
Blah blah blah nothing ever created more of a 'trace' than a cliff sprayed with bolts

Rationalize it all you want you old coot

Your butt is hurt cause people called you out on your sh#t lol go have a good cry, fire in some more bolts and you'll feel like 'the man' again soon enough
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 23, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
I've only 'sport climbed' in Vegas. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 23, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
I started with French, then Ranch, been going with Thousand Island for a while now.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 05:30am PT
Rgold,

read me more carefully, I never said Jstan was incorrect but that I did not want to use the likes of his type of pedantic analysis, the syllogism. His and your sophomoric analysis gets us no where with safety and risks except the posting of new sub-categories of what fits your limited definition of rational. Or is your definition of rational an absolute standard?

You guys chose that narrow interpretation of rationality and tried to make a statement about my thread. Well here the is definition of rational from Merriam-Webster--

Rationality is the quality or state of being reasonable, based on facts or reason.

I take it that "facts" here can mean empirically gathered evidence.

Your view of my view is quite presumptuous when you say my view [this definition above] of rational poses an absolute standard.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Safety trumps leaving no trace

That’s true but that is not what you are defending. What you are defending is convenience and your personal manifest destiny to bolt whenever and whatever you want.

As for those who try to deconstruct the “leave no trace” meme to some kind Zeno paradox of unattainable and hierarchy and complication it’s not that but just an admonishment to be thoughtful about how you treat public lands. It is a good basis for approaching wilderness to be conservative in the moment so down the road some can take liberties in the future.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:27am PT
Sophomoric? RGOLD's statement is sophpmoric you say? BS Dingus. The man wrote an in depth approach to answer this and that's what ya got in response?

soph·o·mor·ic - pretentious or juvenile.
ˌsäf(ə)ˈmôrik/
adjective
adjective: sophomoric


NOT
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 09:40am PT
couchmaster,

you fail to see the sly rhetorical measures used in the Rgold post. In fact the only way to make that syllogism work is to use such a narrow definition of rational --"context free". And when this sopho level puzzle is used it produces no good answers to reducing safety and risk. Study some risk analysis and you will find little or no mention of the Jstan like syllogism. It is merely cheap talk or lip service instead of figuring out real solutions to minimizing risk while we are doing what we are doing.

To say rational must be "context free" is to use the same absolute standard they accuse me of using.

Where as in another post I stated that rational is choosing the best of several less than optimal. How much information do we have on each option?

Goldstone's reasoning can be subjected to same standard measure of scrutiny I would give to your post. It is sophomoric in that once you know how to reduce risk you don't even go to that syllogistic way of explaining the methodology of risk analysis.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 11:03am PT
jammer,

The syllogism advanced by Jstan and Rgold is pretentious (couchmaster definition of sophomoric if you will) in that its use does nothing to advance risk analysis--a mere pretension to know something of safety and risk reduction.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 26, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Krahmes, very articulate post.

Dingus, respect and civility, please.

And, although I disagree with your ethics regarding bolting, I do need to give you credit for the overall considerate and conservative way you have developed Reese. Kudos to you for that.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 11:20am PT
jammer,

Is the reward of Leaving No Trace in the instance of rappelling on a cotton camouflaged shoe lace (that soon disintegrates)more than the safety you feel when you use some beefy webbing as the rappel ring?

Using the shoe lace means you will use No Trace rational at the expense of your safety.

I am saying that for most of us rational types safety overrides "Leaving No Trace".
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 11:26am PT
Mark Force,

I respect Freedom of Speech. Civility? If you are bothered by what I say it is your hang up, not mine. The Founding Fathers were well aware that many sore losers cry foul. Some peoples feelings get hurt because they do not understand they have put some dumb ideas on the table.

And thanks for the compliment.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 11:29am PT
Placing gear is a skill. Gear can be adequate. It just doesn't work on faces. And if you don't have any you cannot place some.

"Shades of gray" and that is why I want continuum measurements as opposed to discrete(black and white)[all or none]measurements. Game theory if you will; What gives me the best/adequate odds for what I want.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2014 - 11:30am PT
Dingus,

I've re-read the posts of rgold and jstan, together with your repsonse, and I'm still having difficulty understanding your argument. Jstan simply acknowledges the feelings of a great many non-climbers, namely that we're not entirely rational to engage in this hobby in the first place.

Rgold's post emphasizes that this isn't a simple, all-or-nothing, tradoff. We trade degrees of risk for degrees of alteration of the medium.

Finally, your criticism of the use of a syllogisms strikes me as, ultimately, a criticism of the use of logic. Maybe because I have a mathematical mindset, syllogisms form the subatomic particles of my reasoning. [You're entitled, if you wish, to add "sic" after "reasoning" in the previous sentence.] If we cannot argue using syllogisms, what argumentative instruments would you permit?

John
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 11:36am PT
John,

If all people are rational( and value safety above all else) we may conclude no climbers are rational.


It sounds like you missed Jstan's syllogism/conditional? Syllogism statement values are kind of "all", "none" and "some".

I will say it again: Their argument against mine(jstan's syllogism) does nothing to advance risk assessment.

Game Theory matrices where likelihood and probabilities range continuously from values of 0.0 to 1.0 . is the method that yields more assessment of risk than syllogisms. I would permit syllogisms where you can assert universality. Then such words as all or none have meaning.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
My statement: Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace means do not kill yourself or run up a big hospital bill to satisfy the requirements of Leaving No Trace. Such behavior( assuming your have information on options) is foolish or not rational.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Civility? If you are bothered by what I say it is your hang up, not mine. The Founding Fathers were well aware that many sore losers cry foul. Some peoples feelings get hurt because they do not understand they have put some dumb ideas on the table.

A typical heaping of scorn from the self-proclaimed Grand Arbiter of What Is and Is Not Dumb and newly-minted constitutional scholar.

We all do have our own hangups. One of mine is that my possibly quite few remaining years are too short to trade insults with people who are incapable of discussing anything without them.

I'm satisfied with my sophomoric statement, riddled as it may be with paranoia-inducing sly rhetorical devices, weighed down as it is, for the keenly perceptive, with hidden Aristotelian syllogisms which need to be replaced by some alternate probilistic logic systems, the whole sorry mess ending up as just my latest Dumb Idea.

I'm fine with it as it stands. It isn't my first Dumb Idea and, with any luck, will not be my last. But I'm not gonna argue with the Grand Arbiter about anything. I've already violated my principles in this regard by posting this.

Let me add that I have great respect for the scope of the Grand Arbiter's climbing achievements, most especially in the realms of trad he is now so busy rejecting. And not only have I have not attacked in any way his actions at Reese, for example, but have in fact offered arguments that provide support for what he's up to there.

So y'all have a good day, and maybe we'll be seeing each other out on the rocks, where I have every expectation that, unlike this deepening cesspool, congeniality will reign.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
My statement: Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace means do not kill yourself or run up a big hospital bill to satisfy the requirements of Leaving No Trace. Such behavior( assuming your have information on options) is foolish or not rational.

Thanks, Dingus. That and your game theory reference help. I'm still missing the disagreement, though. It seems that both rgold and you emphasize the need to deal with ranges of probabilities, not point values.

I think, though, that any game theory matrix I would construct has any number of possible conduct rows or columns, one of which would be "don't climb the route." As a specific illustration, I remember when The Void on the Cookie Cliff was a new route. I was told that jstan backed off trying to repeat it after he concluded that he could not protect it without driving pitons (as done in the FA) or adding bolts. (jstan: if this is untrue, please let me know.) In that case, both safety and leave no trace triumphed. They aren't always mutually exclusive.

John
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
My friend uses a shoelace for a belt.

He claims it is safe and leaves no trace.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
John,

It seems that both rgold and you emphasize the need to deal with ranges of probabilities, not point values.


Yes, and I am in agreement with rgold in many areas of his post. I choose specifically to address our one and main point of friction on the topic of Jstan's idea of rationality and safety.

Correct, you measure the various outcomes with the product of your values of safety and whatever you want. Certainly having two constraints brings more definition to your solution and too many constraints (more weight) makes for an often no-go situation.



Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
rgold,

thanks for the scolding.

The sooner we get rid of “leave no trace” the quicker we’ll get down to the real issues . . .

exactly

jstan

climber
Jun 26, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
jstan: if this is untrue, please let me know

JE:
You are asking me to remember something?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Indeed I am!

What do we want?
Better memory!
When do we want it?

Want what??

John
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 26, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
I prefer to bury my back-country turds

Barely so you create a turd trap, or deep and respectable?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jun 26, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Deep and respectable, in a place that won't flood out and wash turds down into water supplies. I will walk a long ways to find the perfect place to create my little turd nest.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 26, 2014 - 11:25pm PT

Mark Force, I respect Freedom of Speech. Civility? If you are bothered by what I say it is your hang up, not mine. The Founding Fathers were well aware that many sore losers cry foul. Some peoples feelings get hurt because they do not understand they have put some dumb ideas on the table.

And thanks for the compliment.

Dingus, I too respect freedom of speech and defend your right to exercise your free speech regardless of how illogical, tasteless, bombastic, ignorant, and unmannered it may be.

It is boorish that you choose to flame those you disagree with rather than engage in rational discourse. Don't use the Founding Fathers card to justify yourself. Just because you have the right to free speech doesn't mean you're not an as#@&%e when you abuse the right.

My feelings are not hurt, you can say what you want; no big deal. I've tried to make sense of your arguments and rationalizations and can't - there's no sense there to be made other than it's generally reasonable to not risk life or limb without some real cause to do so. Got it.

I stand that civility, including civil discourse, and respect are worthwhile values in society and they make society healthier without hindering free speech. I also hold that respecting the common domain through minimizing our damage/impact when using it is a worthwhile value. Arguing over what that principle should or a shouldn't be called is a stupid exercise.


You have some impulse control problems that you could stand to work through. A lot of folks here have been rooting for you to see it and fix it, but you're too busy flaming (dissing John Stannard? Really?) everyone who pisses you off. I paid you a compliment and you have to come back with that horsesh#t? Kinda sad. Being argumentative is not the same as augmentation and being rude is, well, just being rude.

But, it spite of that stuff, I think you're a nicer guy than you come off as here. Again, I respect your low impact ethics, except for the bolting everything thing. And, it's cool that you're still climbing hard.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 06:38am PT
Mark Force,

I gooogled "abusing freedom of speech" and came accross this:

Freedom of speech is the right to speak freely without fear of retribution
. Vague? In the end what is retribution? I suspect it has to mean bodily harm or imprisonment and destruction personal of property.

No doubt you have added[requested to me] some layers to freedom of speech by adding "not hurting someone's feeling", civility etc.

You accuse me of low self control. I say to you in analogy form: "If porn offends you don't go there". So tell me about your self control.

Feelings Hurt? From AA to Zen we learn in various form and ways, "And this thought too will pass". If the feeling doesn't go away maybe you are obsessed?

If my posting of bolting near cracks on sport routes hurts someone else s feelings, those action of actually bolting and talking about bolting on the internet are what I am legally permitted to do.

And Mark if your feelings are hurt by my bolting I am not going to cease and desist because of that. Am I bullying you or are you bullying me in a subtle form?

Mark it seems like you could grow up a little more? i.e. in understanding the workings of your mind. My feeling are hurt all the time. I see a squirrel get hit by a car. I see an oil cans and filter in the street gutter. A dullie diesel's smoke triggers my asthma etc etc... I let the show in my mind pass... Somehow, I do pay attention to what matters.

And now you tell me: Respect others feelings. ?? I do not tell them to change 'em. I don't know what the fuk goes on in others heads.

Really, I can read a face and see when one is hurt but words on the web? If I took them very seriously I would be a fool.

Would like to hear from you a solution to the situation where you tell what you are doing which causes someone's to get hurt feelings and how is it that you respect their feelings?





Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 07:40am PT
DMT,

I have thought of this.

I would not have listened to Kamp's [1971]and sooner after the get-go started rap bolting overhanging faces. In 1976 some buds of mine rap/aid bolted a line to become [briefly] (their words) the hardest line in the Needles. That is the line was aid bolted to get around the Cali Rules for need of free climbs to be ground up. They could not climb the bolt line, but touted me all the time, "I'll bet you cannot do our aid climb free". I did it one day after some 5 tries. But the opportunities on Devils Tower intervened for some 7 years on what I would do for safety on overhanging climbs. I had to outwardly announce rap bolting as okay by example. I cleared this hurtle without a scratch. Now, I just needed the right media to work with, a total learning experience.

My Rap bolting for sport lines started in the Needles. This was the greatest Stealth show you ever seen. A silencer for the drill, several 2 way radios, very early morning work, camo hangers, cleaning the dust with water and pen names or handle for the radios. I was Todd Skinner and one my friends was Paul P. All went well, no one had any idea. All this went on in the TRAD BASTION of the Needles. But these forays were so exciting. Great adventure and an unheard of level of intrigue. A whole story in itself.

Soon I found Reese and some year later realized how much the media matters. The Needles rock was not suited to overhanging sport climbs but Reese was. When I fist seen Reese Rock it seemed of little use, no continuous cracks, and I could not see the plethora of hidden holds. I bought with me expectations of more Devils Tower and Needles on those early days.

In the end and looking back it could not have been much different for it took part of life time to clearly refute what I had been told to me about how climbing should be done. The youth easily follow what I do.

I think the trump card was playing in the background all time for on first encounter with Kamps I ask him of how you would protect overhanging climbs using his scheme of "no aid". I did add some bolts to my runout climbs of the day.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 07:45am PT
Randizzy,

if it is porn site and you are bothered by port why go there and hurt your feelings?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 07:50am PT
Yes port. It is cheap wine.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:01am PT
jammer,

you are thinking--good question.

Please give me a little to time to cool my finger pads of this typing. I will be back. I am a slow writer.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:10am PT
jammer,

climbing and placing gear are two entirely? different skill sets. I think those having no gear placing skills are still entitled to a safe place to climb on real rock.

more to follow.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:35am PT
Jammer,

Sport climbers only carry draws.

Suppose a 110 ft [sport?] climb has ten bolts and 3 short crack sections that take gear. Is this climb sport or Trad?

Add the three bolts in the zones near the crack sections and you have 13 bolts. And you have 20,000 pissed off trad climbers who do not even use the area.

Obviously I cannot take LNT to seriously when it comes to sport climbing walls, for without bolts we would not have safe climbs.

You say, stay on track and I ask for which question.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:39am PT
Randizzy,

we have already discussed top roping. Rather than rewrite the same answer I suggest you familiarize your self with the postings in this thread?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Jammer,

you are asking me to second guess what the people that are advocating LNT really mean? I do not care to second guess their catchy little phrase. Ask them what they mean not me.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 27, 2014 - 08:48am PT
I used to enjoy looking at blank areas of rock and thinking they would be safe until superior beings evolved.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:53am PT
if it's not all cracks, all bolts? Seems to be what you are saying...

Jammer,

on my lines at sport areas I carry only draws and entirely bolt the lines I choose to have no gear for my level of safety. Even in these areas I do not put bolts beside every crack as the likely hood of falling may be quite small when you can hang on with ease. I carry only draws.

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 08:57am PT
jammer,

which one?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 09:15am PT
jammer,

taken from the now defunct style thread:

if all of Yosemite were bolted it would not be a great Sport Area. The rock texture there does not have the features that constitutes high quality sport moves. Plus we don't do no stinkin cracks.

We have our ideal turf and you have yours and most of the time they are quite different. Rock by its very nature does crack some of the expanses of the overhanging featured faces we choose to use. WE carry only draws so we inevitably end up placing bolts near cracks. These bolts do not prevent you from using gear.

Perhaps you traddies could tell us where you think your turf ends and our begins? Please come out and do our faces using only your gear.

So you are asking me about the turf[a given piece of turf?] that either tradsters or sport climbers could use totally within their own style?

Until someone starts using that kind of a cliff it would seem open to either way [both ways?] unless sanctioned otherwise by legal decree.




Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Dingus, I already told you I defend your right to say and post whatever you want. You're not really good at listening to other people though. You're too busy figuring out what "smart" retort you'll post. My wife says I have two ears and one mouth because I should listen twice as much as I talk. It's good advice and made me a better human to take it. You might try it; it's actually really satisfying; it also encourages civil and respectful behavior and, by actually hearing what other people are saying, you learn a lot.

But, yes, say or post anything you want.

When you present arguments for your position, you will be more successful when you make them rational and sound, appeal to the listener's higher values, and don't insult them during your argument. Just sayin'.

You keep thinking that you're hurting my feelings. I don't get it. Do you feel empowered by the idea? Seem kind if weird to me.

Just to keep things on track here and to reiterate my opinion, I don't care what style people climb with other than the impact it has on public lands. What I see is that we as a group are edging toward being vandals of public lands and we could stand to put our house in order before someone does it for us. Besides, minimizing our impact is respectful of everyone else using said public lands; they are after all there for everyone to use and enjoy.

Oh, and hearing people out and being civil, respectful, and a gentleman/lady are strengths and, if anything, indicate character.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 09:42am PT
jammer,

it is very easy to verbally create a situation[or imagine such a piece of rock [unused]] that is useful to both parties. Note I said useful but I did not say ideal. I do not care which way it goes. The people present can resolve that dilemma.

In my time and place the condition was such that no one was using any of it.

PS Some of route on the Tower have only a bolt or two and I have no desire to make them all bolts.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:50am PT
DMT, nice post. Don't agree with every bit of it, but nice post.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 09:55am PT
DMT,

we concur about 100% on these views. And I totally accept bolting a line that is less than vertical by top down. I tell my peers that you do these for 3 reasons:

1. When you get old you'll want some less steep climbs.

2. Your peers spouses may not come to the area unless there is something for them

3. You need some warm-ups.

3b. You haven't got out enough but would like to go thru the motions of climbing.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:00am PT
jammer,

tell us you want to do and speaking for my part I can say it will be conserved--not modified. Other most likely will agree. Steve Roach has a 5" gear crack out there he has done. We think he wants it that way and no one has added any bolts. In generations to come I cannot say what they will do.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:09am PT
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:09am PT
jammer,

it would seem that if the cliff is undeveloped and you get there first your soon to come workings would hold some precedent.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:10am PT
Melissa,

what is "this?"

Part of the picture? Standing on one foot? wearing pink?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Mark Force,

about civility: I often respond in like tone but only after being provoked. You escalate and I just may escalate.

There is a psychological condition such that what one despises in another he lacks in himself.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:15am PT
I forget the name, and I'm not trying to make a point, but it was WTF enough when we saw it to take a pic. You couldn't have rolled your 3 year old down the slap at this point if you pushed them. IIRC it was an "approach pitch" to some steeper slab climbing in Valle, Norway. We generally liked the area which was developed almost single handedly buy a guy from Germany who developed routes with many different styles but, for the most part, tried to keep his "sectors" of style separate.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:23am PT
jammer,

BTW, you ever check out the scruffy little formations in prairies?
Do you mean the Kennedy Ranch Rocks?



Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:26am PT
Melissa,

the bolts never stood out. wrong context?
pc

climber
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:27am PT
IMO

Leave no trace trumps climbing.

Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Dingus, is having a different opinion than yours your definition of escalation?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:30am PT
Mark Force,

What I see is that we as a group are edging toward being vandals of public lands


and can you name any particular group, thing or activity?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:34am PT
PC

IMO

why not say Leaving No Trace trumps living on the Earth?

Get a global view!
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Dingus? I don't understand your post? There's a bolt at my foot. It's just supposed to be funny. I'm not going to go crazy in Berkeley over a bolt in Norway.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:37am PT
Melissa,

for some time I did not see the bolt and hanger in your pic.

Now all is clear.

ps also I would not have thought of the setting as a rock climbing area with so little background to view.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:39am PT
Mark Force,

It may be that with you I miss read the tone you attempt to present?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:40am PT
I'm curious who, if anyone on this thread, truly advocates LNT and climbing simultaneously. Merely approaching, climbing and descending a route leaves some trace. As soon as you thrown in the need to rope up, the trace gets biggers. It seems to me that Dingus McGee makes that point with his OP, and I'm searching in vain to find someone who contradicts it.

John
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:45am PT
jammer,

oh yes, the metamorphic outcrops. Either gneiss or granite gneiss. No I have not climbed on them much but they can have classy short climbs on them. Nice steep face with features. And cracks. Have at 'em.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:47am PT
What is the correct version of LNT?


Mark Force where are U?
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:47am PT
I don't think anyone disputes that LNT isn't fully consistent with existing. These seem to be the issues in dispute: The folks who see LNT as a fundamentalist principle to be adhered to in the strictest of terms or rejected out of hand see discussing it with those who see it as goal or guiding principle for minimizing impact when possible as hypocrisy, and then there are others who don't have fundamentalist blinders on, but don't desire to reduce impacts either or who disagree with what constitutes undesirable impact also arguing that it is not an interesting principle.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:56am PT
jammer,

you and anyone else do not have to ask me for permission. Part of it is public land and some of those rock may be the Kennedy private lands.

I have ask the Kennedy people about climbing on them and they had no problem. But I suggest if any ranch people approach you in that allotment ask if climbing on such and such a rock poses any problem.. It seem this way of asking leaves them with a feeling of cooperation.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 10:58am PT
jammer,

I have already said I do not care to second guess what LNT means. I have my version of it. And I know a version of it is not IT.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:58am PT
Jammer,

I would, fo course, argue that the proper ideal should be to leave the optimal trace.

;>)

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 27, 2014 - 11:20am PT
BTW, Dingus, I usually find out who's land it is, then ask pre-emptively. I have found being caught on someones land, regardless of how respectful you are being or why you are there, is a good way to jeopardize access, both for that day and going forward into the future. Please try to clean up your act regarding that if you don't already since other people may want to climb there as well..

Amen, jammer! I learned to climb at Little Table Mountain, a volcanic plug near Fresno, on private, cattle grazing land. It had every variety of climbing except low-angle slabs, and was excellent training for high angle face climbing, cracks, and aid.

We always went to the landowner and asked permission to climb. We never got turned down. Unfortunately, lots of others (climbers and otherwise) started to go there without permission. These were primarily teenagers and they often engaged in that no-no of cattle country -- shooting while livestock was present. They also committed that no-no of my presence, viz. shooting while drinking. I saw no reason to re-enact the attack on Point Du Hoc (i.e. climb with bullets flying by).

Fed up, the landowner closed the entire cliff and its environs to everyone about 20 years ago. The landowner went so far as to get Madera County to abandon a public road that aided access. OK, it was a dirt road, but it was still a public right-of-way. While he doesn't blame the climbers, he just thought it was too hard to keep some off but not others. This way, anyone there who is not a ranch employee (or a steer) is trespassing.

Too bad.

John

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 11:29am PT
jammer,

good, the LPWHMP is a cooperative mixture of lands with some small parcels of both public and private lands. Most of the allotment is entirely open to public recreation--that is camping is allowed. Signs show this parcel's breakdown.

But the Kennedy people will often approach you for a chat.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 27, 2014 - 11:34am PT
It may be that with you I miss read the tone you attempt to present?

Dingus, that is likely; think of us as climbers sitting around a fire and having a hot debate.

What is the correct version of LNT?

I'm no authority or holder of the Truth! LNT has a history back to Olmstead, Muir, and Brower. I'd argue back to Thoreau and Whitman. I think a lot of us have been arguing over semantics. LNT is an unachievable ideal. Existing leaves trace. Our trace in the bigger world is a huge issue and we all need to wrestle with that and minimize our adverse impact on resources because they're finite and it's in all of our long-term interests to share. We could stand to have less people in the world along with consuming less, but that's territory where angels fear to tread!

So, LNT is really about making choices that minimize impact while still leaving you leeway to play. Call it a minimal impact ethic; call it whatever you want. Seems like that, fundamentally, is something we can all agree on. The devil is in the details.

Dingus, you have certainly acted lawfully according to BLM guidelines and respectfully by asking landowners permission to climb on their land. Nice.

Now, as for my opinion about bolting in relation to a minimal impact ethic...
1) BLM wilderness rules are good - hand drill only.
2) Convenience bolts suck. Don't bolt where there is a usable crack, including belays.
3) Bolting short face climbs that are easily top-roped sucks.
4) Gridbolting sucks; if that is your idea of climbing, there are gyms for that.

There is my opinion. Doesn't mean it is right, but I do believe it is a solid minimal impact ethic for climbing. It preserves the resource, leaves room for "sport" and "trad" climbing, and decreases the chance of being severely regulated from outside.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
Mark Force,

in my experience I see increasing evidence that texting and email media are somewhat to quite tone deaf. The mind responds so quickly to the quirk of a slight tone and can be wrong. The evidence is in the additional symbols we now add to ironic statements and short messages to let the receiver know that all is good [with what we have said]. For example: lol, lulz, :) etc.

While giving an in person speech we would not hold up the symbol of the smiling face. We read the crowd; they read us well enough and have no need for the tone-directing symbol. This part[tone] of communication does not move over the internet unless we add symbols.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Mark Force,

some sport climbers have only draws. Getting gear consumes resources too. One bolt could keep a group of climbers from having to acquire such gear.

Which way consumes less resources? adding one bolt or everybody having a #2 friend for one placement? There certainly is a lot less metal in one bolt/hanger combo than 20 #2 friends.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
I think sport climbing also adds to the ability of the rock resource to accommodate more climbers in a given time period. If every party has to fiddle around placing and removing gear, building anchors, etc., it simply takes longer.

Mind you, I mostly climb without fixed gear, largely looking for routes off the beaten path, but I enjoy sport climbing, too, and I appreciate that others did the hard work so I don't have to.

John
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
John,

I see and know your point that fiddling with gear causes less through-put per route than an all bolted situation would make for but like you I am mostly out in woods climbing with a few friends.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
"I'm Dingus and so is my wife".
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
eeyonkee,

tell us about your life. Please take over the bully pulpit.

We want more posts from you.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
Hey, man. I just like to insert the funny comment here and there.
pc

climber
Jun 27, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
Dingus McG...responds to my post:

"PC

IMO

why not say Leaving No Trace trumps living on the Earth?

Get a global view!"

I wasn't attacking you, your routes, or your syle. Never climbed any of them. And why would you think I don't have a global view from my post?

Just generally tossing out a counterpoint to the thread's title which is on the spectrum/circle along with my suggestion that "leaving no trace trumps climbing. You're right. We're here and existing which is very counter to "leave no trace". I suggest an alternate title for the thread. "Existence trumps leaving no trace".

In the grand (or global) scheme of things, climbing of almost any sort, is next to a single mouse fart on the spectrum of "leaving a trace". We're much better off sitting around our "campfire" here devising ways to disrupt or completely avoid the real "traces" being made.

Cheers,
pc
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
PC,

sometimes it is hard to get the gist of a short post and yours was in that category. I tried a slight modification to see what come next from you.

Yes, what climbers have "spoiled" on Earth is probably not even a drop in the bucket to what LA county wastes/destroys in a single day. And this is true for trad and sport combined.

The LNT people[seem to] say that yes this is true so we must absolutely not modify what is still untouched[by our standards]. They seem to not want to open up the LNT issue to a global scale, Existence Trumps LNT . Is LNT a smokescreen to quash bolting and sport routes? It has been used as such.

I have no intent to change the thread title and I am not sure you can.

For the [civil]engineering world and lawsuit avoiding businesses safety always trumps LNT and for most of the recievers of their goods and products.

when I am climbing I may be consuming less resources than when i am in town and laying low! So why try LNT trumps climbing?

But in the end I cannot accurately guess what the LNT people want, You have got my second guess on what they might want.
pc

climber
Jun 27, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
I agree Dingus.

This is mostly splitting hairs. No one but climbers will see much if any of the trace anyway. Now approaches are a different story... ;)

Cheers,
pc



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