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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 1, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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7/1/2018 Karabin Climbing Museum Chouinard Equipment Display has moved to Ventura CA!
— Since the first post of this thread can be forever edited, I have put the most updated display boards on this first post for easy historical reference. Looking for compliments, corrections and complaints. If you have any Chouinard gear questions or fun history to share, please post your questions and stories on this thread…. The original thread post begins below…
 Display boards edited to 7/1/2018
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Original first post below.............June 1, 2014...............
I am working on my new museum display at the AZ Hiking Shack in Phoenix AZ. This new display will be featuring Chouinard products circa 1957-1989. Of course I am coming up with many questions already so I am asking for a little help from the Chouinard collectors out there.
First Question and most important: Does anybody have any Chouinard catalogs 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968? The information in these catalogs can solve many mysteries on many of the Supertopo threads. Please share!
On the Chouinard "Firsts page" I see that 1 1/2" and 1" Angles are first introduced in 1960. My question here is what did the 1960 1" angle look like? Was it straight like the 1 1/2" or did Chouinard first introduce it with the classic design like the 1967 1" angle has?
In 1960 Chouinard introduces the alloy sheet steel bong, which was only one size.
In 1961 Aluminum Bongs are introduced in four sizes. When the aluminum came along in 1961 did Chouinard discontinue the steel bong? When was the 2" steel bong first introduced?
The 1965 catalog shows the bongs 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2 to be aluminum with solid sides, but the 2" bong has lightening holes available in steel and aluminum.
Full set of aluminum bongs with lightening holes introduced in 1968/69? (I don't have 1968 catalog but shows lightening holes in 1969 catalog for sure).
Full set of four steel bongs with lightening holes were introduced in 1970 but discontinued in 1972.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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What year did Chouinard Zinc plate his pitons?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
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What year did the RURP get the second webbing hole?
What did the early 1960s RURP look like?
That 1960 RURP sure is beautiful! For the pre 1967 RURP it looks like somebody grinded it flat but nevertheless, it is stamped RURP which makes it unique. It also has a wider design which is evident between the bottom hole and back end. The 1965 catalog shows a crappy picture of a wide looking RURP. The 1967 catalog cover shows a thin looking RURP, which may have come out in 1966 (I don't have 1966 catalog). In 1971 a wider design RURP was introduced.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Marty,
You can date Chouinard angle pitons by the size of his stamp. The 1" angle below has been cut and finished by hand in the very early 1960s.
Yvon was still making alloy ring angles in the late 1950s. As time went by the stamp became larger until it reached the size on the 1970s 1 1/2" angle at the top. Second down is a Clog 1" angle.
By about 1963-64 Tom Frost started moonlighting from his engineering job and began producing drawings to allow dies to be made to get around all of the handwork previously involved. His first assignment was the standard 3/4" angle.
The big aluminum angled stamped "YC" at the bottom which I liberated from Haystack in the Wind River Range is a prototype from the early 1960s I would guess. Tom Frost and Bill Feuerer shaped some big sturdy angles out of alloy steel in preparation for the second ascent of the Nose in 1960 by Tom, Royal, Joe Fitschen and Chuck Pratt.
Dick Long had a selection of big alloy angles available formed from thinner alloy steel like these ones.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The original Chouinard 1" angle also had a "pointy" tip.
Vs. later more "square" tip.
Comparison of 1967(?) and 1960 1" angles
1965 Chouinard catalog (I do not have a copy of the catalog)
Shows 1960 pointy design.
Comparison of 1960 and 1967(?) 1.5" angles
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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RURP shapes varied a lot over the years,
probably depending on who was making the latest batch.
1960 Dolt Hut catalog
Ken Boche #1
Nose 2nd ascent gear layout (could be made by William Feuerer?)
Robert Summers #1
Robert Summers #2
Chouinard 1967 catalog
Chouinard 1972 catalog
Ken Boche #2
Ken Boche #3
Ken Boche #4
Tom Cochrane #1
Tom Cochrane #2
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steel bongs with lightening holes existed by 1965 -
see the 1965 "sortout" photo on p.68 of Glen Denny's book.
Probably worthy of mention are bongs with 2 eyes, no additional lightening holes, rounded tips.
Made by Tom Frost with help from William Feuerer, for the Stoveleg cracks on the 2nd ascent of the Nose,
according to "Tom Frost Goes Over the Top", by Pat Ament.
Similar version for sale from the Chouinard-Frost team shortly afterwards.
Feuerer was probably not happy about this, since his Dolt company was a competitor of Chouinard.
sizes: to about 2 1/2", according to Camp 4, p.109, but the above looks like 3"
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
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First of all…….Wow! Nice RURP lineup Clint! My guess would be that the Tom Cochrane #2 or Summers #2 RURP is the second generation, ….hmmm but what year was that second hole added?
My logic for the angles was to not go by the size of the stamps to determine age since angles were introduced throughout a span of many years. Many size stamps were used in these years. First introduced: (Angle 1960- 1", 1 1/2"), (Angle 1961- 3/4"), (Angle 1965- 1/2", 5/8"), (Angle 1967- 1 1/4"). Steve shows that the earlier angles had pointed tips.
Looking at the majority of the early Chouinard pitons and bongs I would say the "USA" stamp was not added until……1963, or 64? And on the Lost Arrows the "USA" was not added until…………..hmmm?………1972? This will be another of my upcoming questions. So I think my search is for angles that do not have the USA stamp, or catalogs, magazine ads helpful. I believe the very large "C" stamp on Steves 1 1/2" angle is second generation. Nice alum prototype angle Steve! I just dug through all of my alum bongs and none have the Frost/Dolt two hole………moment of silence……bummed………..…but great story!
Nice 1968 North Face catalog!
So what year was the "USA" added to Chouinard's pitons?
Thanks Gents for all of your knowledge……more questions follow! Yeah!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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top/pointier: <C> is 10mm high; U.S.A. width 8mm
bottom/square: <C> is 13.5mm high, U.S.A. width 12.5mm
another square one: <C> is 14mm high, U.S.A. width 14mm
1960/pointy: <C> is 7mm high; on my example it is on the inside of the U on both sides. No U.S.A. visible, but it has some rust
1967(?)/square: <C> is 10mm high, U.S.A. width 11.5mm
another/square: <C> is 9.5mm high, U.S.A. width 10.5mm
another/square: <C> is 10mm high, U.S.A. width 11mm
3/4" angle
one example: <C> is 9.5mm high, don't see U.S.A. but it's well used
another: <C> is about 11mm high (off edge), U.S.A. width 8.5mm
5/8" angle
one example: <C> is 10.5mm high, U.S.A. width 9.5mm (on spine)
another: <C> is 10.5mm high, don't see U.S.A. due to paint and usage
1/2" angle
one example: <C> is 9mm high, U.S.A. width 7mm (on spine)
another: <C> is 9.5mm high, U.S.A. width 7.5mm (90 degree rotation)
On the introduction date for the Chouinard 3/4" (standard) angle, my notes say:
Chouinard firsts: "1957-58: ringless alloy steel angle [3/4"]
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Lost Arrows.
I don't know exactly when the U.S.A. was added on the opposite side to
Lost Arrow. Sometime after 1963-64, and by 1968.
The generations I noted are:
1957-58: Hand - forged Lost Arrow, no logo, lengths vary
4 sizes listed in 1960 Dolt Hut catalog:
1: standard (thin), 2: thick, 3: wedge, 4: spoon.
1963-64 die forged blanks, finished by hand, round tip
or does the tip just look round because of the photo angle?
anvil height: medium
logo: LOST ARROW
1968 die forged blanks, oval tip
anvil height: high
logo: LOST ARROW, U.S.A. on other side
8 sizes in 1968 catalog
1972 closed die forged, square tip
8 sizes in 1972/73 catalog
1975 - production moved to Italy
logo: LOST ARROW, ITALY on other side
blade logo: size (1-6), CAMP INTERALP
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
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Clint - I am baffled on why Chouinard didn't list when the 3/4 angle was introduced on his "firsts" page, but I found the 1961 date in the 1965 Chouinard catalog wordage describing the 3/4 Angle.
I believe that the Lost Arrow lineup went:
-57-58 hand forged
-63-64 die forged (no USA)
-65 die forged set of 8 (no USA)
-68? die forge set of 8 (USA) set looks like 1965 version?
-72 closed die forged.
My Lost Arrows with the USA are only on the 1972 set. All of my 1965 - 1971 arrows have no USA. Is the 1965 set different from the 1968 set?
On the photo below I show how to identify a 1963/64 Arrow.
You mentioned that Chouinard in 1975 farmed out the arrows to be completely mfgd by Camp, so now the arrows have "Italy" instead of "USA." I always thought that those "Italy" arrows were Europe's version of the Lost Arrow. I considered them to be just a Camp product. Wow! So from 1975 and on the arrows were marked "Italy." So in Europe did they also sell these Camp Chouinard Arrows or were they exclusive to just Chouinard for sale in the USA?
1975 and on arrows shown to have 8 sizes available.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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I'm having a flashback to climbing with my dad at Seneca and Old Rag! Later the Longware steel bong saw the wrath of my hammer many times in the Adirondacks and may be rusting away behind a big flake at Chapel Pond.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Marty,
> I am baffled on why Chouinard didn't list when the 3/4 angle was introduced on his "firsts" page,
> but I found the 1961 date in the 1965 Chouinard catalog wordage describing the 3/4 Angle.
I see what you mean (I have not seen these full 1965 catalog pages before).
There might be a contradiction in the catalogs, though.
In the "Chouinard firsts" list, the first item under angles is:
"1957-58: ringless alloy steel angle"
No size is listed.
But it has been my understanding that a "standard" angle is 3/4".
> I believe that the Lost Arrow lineup went:
-57-58 hand forged
-63-64 die forged (no USA) [eye round at anvil]
-65 die forged set of 8 (no USA) [eye thicker/tapered at anvil]
-68? die forge set of 8 (USA) set looks like 1965 version? [USA, oval tip]
-72 closed die forged. [square/flat tip]
I agree with the above.
Although I don't know the exact date when each generation changed.
All we can go by are the catalog photos for dates, I believe.
> My Lost Arrows with the USA are only on the 1972 set.
> All of my 1965 - 1971 arrows have no USA.
So you need some oval tip Lost Arrows with USA for your collection.
Steve has at least one:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1253677
> Is the 1965 set different from the 1968 set?
Apparently the difference is just the addition of U.S.A.
> On the photo below I show how to identify a 1963/64 Arrow.
This was helpful, thanks. It took me awhile to see the thicker eye
at the anvil in the 65, vs. fully round in the 63/64.
It does seem to be shown in the 65 catalog photo.
> You mentioned that Chouinard in 1975 farmed out the arrows to be completely mfgd by Camp,
> so now the arrows have "Italy" instead of "USA."
> I always thought that those "Italy" arrows were Europe's version of the Lost Arrow.
> I considered them to be just a Camp product.
They were in the 1975 Chouinard catalog "Now forged in Italy", so that counts as a Chouinard product.
> Wow! So from 1975 and on the arrows were marked "Italy."
> So in Europe did they also sell these Camp Chouinard Arrows
> or were they exclusive to just Chouinard for sale in the USA?
I'm sure they were sold in both Europe and the USA.
Perhaps more to the point - were they distributed by Camp in Europe?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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First for Marty: Here are photos pertinant to his questions of my Chouinard 1968 catalog, and here is a link to Steve Grossman's thread on the ice climbing part of Chouinard's 68 catalog. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=382806
Marty: re your comment: Full set of four steel bongs with lightening holes were introduced in 1970 but discontinued in 1972.
Note that in the below price list, there is a full size range of both steel and aluminum Bongs listed, although the Bong catalog copy notes only the 2" Bong is available in steel.
I find myself agreeing with the information you folks have shared. Pre-1972 Lost Arrows have been somewhat of a mystery to me, but obviously the tips changed from rounded to squared-off sometime between 1968 & 1972.
I also suspect that USA was added sometime around 1968, but I lack Clint's fine eye for details and I can't see any real differences in structure on my earlier non-USA Lost Arrows and my vintage 1968-72 Lost Arrows with rounded tips, but marked USA.
Where I do see differences is slight variations in size & width in the same sizes of Lost Arrows. Here is a lineup of Long Thin Lost Arrows that date from 1972 to 1975. They are also all significantly longer than the 3 1/4" listed in the catalog.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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my USA stamped arrows, bottom row look more rounded vs later 1970's version on top row.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 10, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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From my collection:
Tom Frost fabricated two full sets of these works-of-art steel bongs for the second ascent of El Cap Nose. Then he gave them all to me in support of my attempts to do the first solo ascent. Later he came back and asked me for one of each size so that he could flatten them out and use them as patterns to make the Chouinard Equipment bong-bongs.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
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Tom,
The piton you show looks like an older Chouinard model steel bong.
Are you sure this actual Frost piton was used Sept 1960?
Now doubting you but seems strange.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
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I started digging into my Summit Magazines looking for Chouinard gear advertisements, but It doesn't look like Chouinard advertised much in the early 1960s thru Summit Mag. Since I was tracking Dolts life I don't have Summit magazines between 1961 and 1965. Maybe Steve has a few from these years?
So still looking for any Chouinard info 1961 thru 1966.
So the present standings are:
RURP first created, one hole (Dolt catalog) - 1960
RURP gets second hole and more refined look, wide back - 1961 or 1962?
RURP stamped "RURP", wide back - 1962 or 1963 or 1964 or 1965?
RURP stamped "C" or no stamp, wide back - 1962 or 1963?
RURP stamped "C" and blade shorter - 1967
RURP stamped "C" and blade longer, blade is rounded - 1971
RURP now sold wired - 1985
Lost Arrow first created - 1957/58
……….(1960 Dolt catalog shows LA)
LA Die Forged (no "USA"), eye has flat sides, no eye curve at hammer end - 1963/64
………(How many sizes in 63/64 set?)
LA Die Forged (no "USA") 8 set, round tip - 1965
LA Die Forged ("USA") 8 set, round tip - 1966 or 1967?
……..(don't have 66 catalog), (LA page same in 67 and 68 catalog).
LA Closed Die Forged ("USA") square tip - 1972
LA now made in "ITALY" - 1975
………(LA "ITALY" now have large or small # stamp on blade with Camp and or Interalp stamp)
………(Camp sells same LA's in Europe)
Ringless alloy steel angle - 1957/58
……….(Does anybody know what this looks like?(no "USA")
1" angle, 1 1/2" angle (no "USA) pointed tips, longer overall) - 1960
3/4" angle (no "USA")pointed tip, longer overall - 1961
………("USA" added to all of the angles in 1964 or 1965?)
………..(In 1966 or 67? new shorter 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" created, square tips, "USA")
1/2" angle, 5/8" angle ("USA) - 1965
1 1/4" angle ("USA") - 1967
Zinc plated angles. My 1 1/2" angle is longer style so it is mid 1960s era, but other angles are later 1960s. I also came across a zinc plated knife blade which has two holes. Two holes came about in 1971. So Chouinard created zinc coated pitons here and there?? Also I got these items from a few different sources. I believe the Olson Climbing Collection might have one as well. Hmmmm…
Alloy sheet steel Bong (first Chouinard Bong)- 1960
………..(The one I have is a 3" from Bridwell, (no "USA").(was there just one size avail? no size listing?)
Aluminum Bongs - 1961
………(4 sizes 2", 2 1/2", 3", 4", solid sides, one hole, alum, steel rivet, (no "USA").
………..(in 1961 did Chouinard still sell the steel Bong large size?)
Aluminum 2" Bong with holes, ("USA") - 1964 or 1965?
Steel Bong, 2" with holes, ("USA") - 1964 or 1965?
Aluminum Bongs, with holes, 2 1/2", 3", 4" ("USA") - 1968
…….(I have noticed that Aluminum Bongs with holes come in two different thicknesses, hmmm?).
Steel Bongs with holes, 2 1/2", 3", 4", ("USA") - 1970
This is where the history and mystery list is at so far. Please note if you see any mistakes or additions needed.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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Many changes between this 1967 catalog page and the 1968 catalog page.
Note how the angle weights have changed.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Jun 14, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
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Good stuff, Marty! I learn so much through your posts. Thanks for your tireless efforts to keep the history alive.
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the idle rich
climber
Estes Park, CO
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Jun 16, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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Marty...you haven't mentioned the Bugaboo yet, but I saw the ones pictured in the 1968 catalog. I'm pretty sure these pre-date those. They are somewhat crudely made and the eyes are squared off instead of round. The later versions had a lightening hole. The diamond C is barely visible. Any idea when these were made?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 16, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
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Knifeblades and Bugaboos
1959 - left eye, square outer eye profile
Chouinard firsts: "1959: Horizontal Knifeblade"
photos by Peter Haan, Basic Rockcraft, Ken Boche, Don Lauria
1960 - left eye, hex shaped outer eye, flame cut
Chouinard firsts: "1960: Bugaboo"
KBs are the shorter/thinner sizes, square tip
Bugaboos are the thicker/longer sizes, round tip
sizes: at least 4
1960 - right eye, hex shaped outer edge, flame cut
photos by Ken Boche and Steve Grossman
1965? - right eye, round shaped outer eye, no lightening hole, hammered/rolled taper, not stamped with logo
Chouinard Bugaboos are normally a left eye.
sizes: at least 3
photo by hoipolloi
1965? - left eye, round shaped outer eye, no lightening hole, hammered/rolled taper
6 sizes in 1966 Ski Hut catalog: 2 KB, 4 Bugaboo
1: 7/64 x 1 1/2, 2: .025-.080 x 1 1/2, 3: 1/8 x 1 1/2, 4: 5/32 x 3, 5: 1/4 x 2, 6: 1/4 x 3,
4 sizes in 1968: 2 KB, 2 Bugaboo
1972 - left eye, round shaped outer eye, lightening hole, machine ground taper, chrome nickel steel in KB size, chrome molybdenum steel in Bugaboo sizes
8 sizes: KB, KB thick, short thin, long thin, short med, long med, short thick, long thick
1975 - logo: ITALY INTERALP CAMP
8? sizes
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jun 16, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
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Marty: Re dating what Steve Grossman and I have been calling the 1968 catalog as actually the 1969 catalog makes sense, especially when you have one with a Sept 1969 Postmark.
What makes my head swirl is that I have one of the 1970 catalogs you mention with a April 21, 1969 postmark on it.
The Chouinard 70 catalog I have is a fold-out brochure and was was designed as a supplement to their existing catalog, which is likely the catalog that I will now start calling the 68/69 catalog.
The April 21, 1969 postmark is a real head-scratcher, unless I accept that the 68/69 catalog was first published in 1968.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
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You guys are awesome! I was just laying out the Bugaboos and you already did the work. Sweet! I love that old Chouinard Bugaboo shape! My guess is those are the 1960 original shape. The big question is: when did the 1960 Bugaboo and Knifeblade shape change to the 1963/or 64/ or 65 classic shape?
Another question is: Besides the 1960 Bugaboo, does anybody have any Bugaboos or Knifeblades with the "C" and no USA? Those right eye Bubaboos are interesting also.
In the scraps of a Chouinard 1971 catalog it reads July 1971, angles now have a cleaner taper and a second hole added for weight reduction and clipping on vert cracks. I am sharing what catalog I have and you will see the darkness. What is cool about the 1971 catalog is that it only lists 7 sizes of Hexentrics! So that shows that the 8, 9, 10 Hexentrics were added in 1972. (cool history stuff!).
The only difference between my 1970 catalog price list and your 1968 catalog price list is the 4 webbing items are removed in 1970. Your catalog must be a late 1969. So the question remains. Is the catalog with the gear on the cover a 1968 or 1967. """"""For the climbing company owners reading this thread, please put the catalog dates on your catalogs! Yipe!""""""""
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 18, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
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I have these two pictures available. I do have some other sizes but unable to get to them right now.
When I called it a Bugaboo, the seller corrected me and said it was a Knifeblade....
This was purchased in The Valley from the back of Chouinard's Station Wagon 1962.
No USA Stamp Marty!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
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Roots - looking for Knifeblade or Bugaboos with mid 1960s die cut shape that have "C" stamp but no "USA." The peg you show is pretty thick so I would say it is a 1960 Bugaboo, not a Knifeblade.
A friend named Art stopped by and filled my collection in with many missing items. Art says that the silver coating on the pitons is Cadmium plating and Chouinard sold these pitons for Marine use. I am surprised Chouinard didn't advertise this in the catalogs. Art also has a 2" steel Bong with lightening holes that has "C" stamp but no USA.
In 1975 Chouinard farms out the Lost Arrow manufacturing to Camp. Did Chouinard at this time also have Camp mfg the Knifeblades and Bugaboos? In the 1980 newsletter shown below it states that Knifeblades and Bugaboos are "now manufactured here in Ventura." Since they are made in the USA, Chouinard stamped them Italy because why? Maybe most of the C-Italy KBs and Bugaboos are actually a Camp product, and the "C" stamp with Italy is there because Chouinard was the designer? While in the USA Chouinard continued with just the "C" stamp and the "USA."
Lost Arrows (Italy) eventually were painted with a thick black coating. Looking at the Super Long Dongs, the first year Super Long Dongs 1978 have no coating and are stamped "Camp Interalp." In 1987 the thick coating was added and the stamp changed to "Camp." So around 1987 / 1988 the thick black coating was added to Lost Arrows also. Photo below.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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A few notes about catalogs. The information presented in the catalogs does not necessarily reflect the order in which products were created. So the catalog information is actually a running/shifting list, over the information being "Bible." For example: At many of the climbing trade or Retailers shows, the catalogs presented to the dealers are for the next season. So if the show is summer of 2010, many the manufacturers hand to the dealers the 2011 catalog at that summer 2010 show, so the manufacturer can get guaranteed preseason sales orders to somewhat know how many pieces to create. Even if the manufacturer supplies secondary dealers, example Chouinard selling to REI for REI to sell to the public, the items in the REi catalog may be "end of lot" items that they got a deal on since the newer redesigned pieces were now available from the mfg. So when piecing the mysteries together, keep in mind that most catalogs are printed in the fall of the year previous to the actual catalog year date.
If Chouinard knew that an item was going to be presented the following year, that item would show up in the "Firsts list," but if the year item was created within the same year catalog time, it would not appear at all in the list until the following catalog printed the information of when it was actually created.
My best example is that in 1975 Crack N' Ups were created and sold to the public. It shows this in the "Firsts list." But looking at my 1973 Chouinard Supplement guide, Chouinard shows Crack N" Ups are available #1 - #6. "Available in the fall of 1973." Metolius listed their BRD belay device in their catalogs over three years, and after that third year the BRD then came available for public sale. Great for advertising but it sure messes up the historical truth. Yvon many times has told me to please create the history for him, and then he will stick by it. He too says that he does not remember the correct historical alignment of historical truth, over what appears in the catalogs.
REI started carrying Chouinard gear in 1965. In the 1965 REI catalog it shows Chouinard items, only three sizes of Lost Arrows available with the 63/64 shape. I would say that this is what Chouinard offered at the time, but REI lists all Chouinard products but no Kbs or Bugaboos are mentioned. Maybe at first there were only three sizes of Lost Arrows available in 63/64. Then in 1965/ 66 the Lost Arrows went to 8 different. So here is an example of REI showing 1964 products for the 1965 catalog. Notice that there are no 1/2" or 5/8" angles available because the angles were first created in 1965.
I also found a photo of a RURP that is stamped "RURP" in the 1966 Holubar catalog. So this RURP would have been a 1965 or before item to make it into the 66 catalog. The Holubar 1966 catalog only lists 7 LAs missing the Long Dong. The Chouinard 1965 or 66 catalog shows the Long Dong available.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jun 19, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
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Marty! You are doing great work on this thread.
It is great that you bring up that manufacturers would often generate and publish a catalog for their wholesale outdoor store buyers, before they would send out a similar catalog to their retail customers.
In the 1970's, it wasn't quite as common for outdoor suppliers to have similar catalogs for outdoor store wholesale buyer use and also for retail customers.
I recall that Chouinard would usually issue a catalog in early fall that wholesale buyers used to order sring/summer items, so they would have those in their stores at the appropriate time the next year, when someone might buy them.
A similar catalog, with retail prices, would mail out to Chouinard's customer mailing list the next spring, and at later dates by customer request. Many Chouinard retailers sold his informative catalog to their customers, with suggested retail prices in the catalog.
However, Royal Robbins and his importing company Mountain Paraphernalia printed a catalog solely for outdoor store buyers.
Now, since most all outdoor gear manufacturing is done offshore: most manufacturers need orders for spring/summer shipment by mid-summer and their catalogs for wholesale accounts usually don't match those that retail buyers see.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
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Looking for proof of:
Knife Blade and Bugaboo with "C" but no "USA" stamp on Mid 1960s die cut version.
Bong 2" with lightening holes aluminum with "C" but no "USA" stamp.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Chouinard Bongs -
For Bong "First's" history I have listed:
1960 Alloy sheet metal Bong, (how many sizes?), Have a 3" from Bridwell
1961 Aluminum Bongs, 2, 2 1/2, 3, 4", solid sides, steel rivet
1965 Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" but no "USA", (one size available)
1965 Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" stamp but no "USA" (one size available)
1966/67? Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA", (one size available)
1966/67? Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" and "USA" stamp (one size available)
1968 Aluminum Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA" stamp,
( 2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 7/16")
1970? Aluminum Bongs 4 sizes with lightening holes, thicker alum stock,"C" and "USA stamp,
(2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 5/16")
1970 Steel Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", available with lightening holes. Discontinued in 1972.
For history notes - attached to Chouinard:
Steve has a prototype 1 1/2 aluminum angle.
I have a 1961 Chouinard aluminum Bong 2 1/4" prototype from Don Lauria.
Frost / Dolt alum bongs shown earlier for 2nd ascent of Nose, two carabiner holes.
Tom Cochrane - Frost 1960 steel bongs with lightening holes, template.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 06:24am PT
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Lost Arrow lineup, still missing a few arrows but almost complete
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2014 - 06:41am PT
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Just in time for the Arizona summer heat, my air conditioning died in my truck. Luckily for me the repair shop is next to the Hiking Shack so I had time to start putting together the Chouinard display. For now the Chouinard top of the display is in over the old display of Cam devices. Once I get the Chouinard history dialed in, I will put the other many items under glass. I am hoping to have the Chouinard display completed in the next few months. By the amount of Chouinard gear I have, this display should TOTALLY rock!
As I see it in poetry words: "Upon seeing his creations, Yvon wept!"
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 26, 2014 - 07:58am PT
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Impressive!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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Here's something fun for Friday:
First run Alcoa
Tell us the story Steve!!
PS that Bugaboo up thread I posted is a spare. Available for trade : )
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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I still continually ponder the question on why did William 'Dolt' Feuerer commit suicide. For years I figured it had to do with Chouinard and the amount of new gear being introduced at that 1966-1971 time. Besides Chouinard there was Forrest, Troll, Clog, Colorado Nuts, Moac, Peck, and many more. Maybe Dolt was not willing to compete with these new gear companies and worked himself into exhaustion, at the same time he did not want to show failure.
"I always hoped that the reason Dolt died was because he couldn't hold romance in his life, and he put the passion he sought for into his products." Quotes like this make great hollywood movies!
I believe Dolt looked up to Chouinard, because of Chouinard's climbing skills and his passion for creating climbing gear. They shared a common passion, which shows in Dolts 1960 catalog showing Chouinard products. Was Dolt a major climber? Did he climb every weekend and do expeditions and stuff? I know of a few climbs that Dolt was on, but not many. Chouinard was living the climbing and surfing lifestyle. Dolt was partying with Harding on the Nose, yo-yoing the lower half. The missing piece to my Dolt puzzle may be these Bongs used on the second ascent of the Nose.
I keep looking at these bongs made by Frost / Dolt for the Sept 1960 second ascent of the Nose (thanks Clint). I don't believe that the second hole is on the Bong for weight reduction, but is there for a second tie off option. The Bongs get used on the climb and then are sold afterwards to the public. So at this point Dolt is upset with Frost for selling off the Bongs and giving Chouinard ideas. Dolt still advertises Chouinard products in the Summit magazines until summer 1961. Then mid 1961 Chouinard introduces his line of 4 aluminum bongs for sale, which are similar to the Frost / Dolt bongs. Dolt announces he is out of business January 1962. No more orders accepted after January 31, 1962. Dolt is done with climbing gear.
Chouinard keeps the climbing lifestyle through the early 1960s, while creating a few new pitons and joins the Army in winter 1962 - July 1964. Chouinard hardly advertised his products and only single page price lists of his products were sent to climbing stores until 1965 (?). Dolt works for McDonnell Douglas as an engineer. Chouinard moves to Ventura CA in 1966 and teams up with Tom Frost creating the Great Pacific Iron Works. Many new products start to be created. Dolt announces that he is back in business July 1966. Many new products start to be created.
Now is this the start of Dolt getting back at Frost and getting back at Chouinard by challenging their craftsmanship? Both Dolt and Chouinard/Frost create amazing products. The best gear available at that time. Both at this time put the "USA" on their products. Dolts stardolt 5 super steel pitons are listed as indestructible. Dolt shows his ego through his quirky Dolt advertisements in the Summit magazines. Dolt is the "Master craftsman to mountaineers." Maybe Chouinard and Frost didn't care about Dolts (possible vendetta), and Dolt became frustrated not having the subconscious challenge being presented. Dolt would then find himself buried in orders to fill of his gear, the gear that he lost the reason to create.
This is just a Marty theory so don't take this story as history. Also Tom and Yvon, I love you guys and I am not saying that you killed the Dolt. Good grief! :) I am just saying that Dolt was a very passionate man and something on the inside of Dolts head was bugging him, and bugging him for a long time. I am copying this post to the Dolt Stories thread.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
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While I think it's interesting to to consider the factors for
the relative business success of Chouinard/Frost and Dolt,
it is uncomfortable to speculate on how much this might have been a factor
in his suicide. There were other frustrations in his life,
such as his lack of success in relationships with women, which has
been mentioned in articles.
Given that his biological daughter posts here, I think it would not be
a positive thing for her to have it discussed here.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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Well said Clint.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 27, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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Marty
I agree with Clint in not having it discussed or posted as well on ST.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 27, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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Audrey has posted here quite a bit about the medical condition that she shares with her dad that was the prime contributing factor in Bill committing suicide so the topic is out in the open if you would bother to go back and read her posts on the subject.
Tom and Bill were very close friends. Tom was Bill's best man when he first got married. Tom used to ride his bike across the Santa Monica basin to visit Bill's shop and tinker with gear which is how he first got interested in designing and making hardware. In the early 1960s when Tom started to work with Yvon, he began to notice that Bill would cover up certain things that he was working on and it became clear that Bill felt some betrayal from this association.
Once Tom left his aerospace engineering career (which also was Bill's bread and butter) and partnered with Yvon full-time it really hurt Bill and the rift was never addressed or had a chance to heal. Tom has expressed to me some regret about not attending to his friend's need in all of the excitement surrounding Chouinard Equipment. Bill loved the climbing gear business but it was unrequited love and his lack of sound and practical business acumen prevented him from making a real go of it as was his heartfelt desire.
Don Lauria spoke very eloquently about all of this at the first Oakdale Festival. It would have been nice if Audrey had been able to see the full range of her dad's design genius on display on that very deeply moving occasion but "the Karabin Museum was closed" so I did the best that I could.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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Steve, beautiful answer, thanks!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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Chouinard catalogs:
March 1960 Dolt catalog shows Chouinard carabiners, pitons, and RURP.
Chouinard goes into the Army winter 1962 - July 1964. I wonder if somebody was still selling his pitons while he was in the Army? This is probably why there is no Chouinard catalogs previous to 1964. The January 31, 1977 New Yorker Profile story on Chouinard states that in 1964 Chouinard went back into creating climbing gear immediately and created a one page price list flyer for the climbing stores. At the bottom it was written "Don't expect a speedy delivery in the months of May, June, July, August and September." Because those were the climbing months.
Identifying the 1960s Chouinard catalogs has been quite a challenge. I know that there are a few more Chouinard catalogs that need to surface which will straighten out the year date confusion.
The 1972 catalog remained the same through the year 1974. Only the price list in the back of the catalogs changed. I believe that there are four different price lists per year, and three years of this catalog. So possibly 12 different price lists.
Inside the 1974 Winter newsletter was Hexcentric templates where a person who has Chouinard Hexcentrics can drill their own lightening holes. What is interesting is that Chouinard did not offer Hexcentrics with predrilled lightening holes until 1976, but offered the templates in 1974 to do the work yourself.
The 1975, 1976 and 1977 Chouinard catalog covers remained the same but some of the pages changed. To identify the 1975 catalog the Hexcentics in the catalog photo should have solid sides. The 1976 catalog shows the Hexcentrics with lightening holes. The 1977 catalog has 1977 Featherlight Carabiner in the "Firsts list" I believe also that the 1975, 1976, and 1977 catalogs had two different price lists each, spring and fall.
The 1978 catalog has two versions spring and fall. The spring shows wood piolets and the fall shows carbon glass piolets.
I am still looking for a better copy of 1979. Not sure if had spring and fall versions.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
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Cliff Hanger name changed to Cliffhanger in 1982
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
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Crack'n-Ups
Chouinard creates Crack'n-Ups and advertises that they will be available fall 1973. But Crack'n-Ups went through further testing before they finally became available to the public in 1975. After this testing it was decided that the #1 Crack'n-Up was too thin to hold bodyweight, so only #2 - 6 Crack'n-Ups became available to the public. My question here is: why in the Chouinard 1975 catalog is the #1 Crack'n-Up listed being available to the public? Tom and Yvon decided right away that the #1 was too thin back in 1973. In the 1976 catalog the #1 Crack'n-Up is removed, but notice the differences in weights between the catalog pages below. Big difference! The stack of Crack'n-Ups show the different thicknesses of #2 - 6 in the photo below.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
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differences in weights --> differences in Estimated Strength .
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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"The 1972 catalog remained the same through the year 1974. Only the price list in the back of the catalogs changed. I believe that there are four different price lists per year, and three years of this catalog. So possibly 12 different price lists."
This is not completely accurate.
There was a "72" catalog with Klocker boots in the body and on the price list, there was one with Haderer boots in the body, and one with Klocker
boots in the body but Haderer boots on the price list.
There may have been other tiny differences.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2014 - 11:18am PT
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Chouinard Hammers:
1966 Yosemite - flat screw, silver lettering, blunt pointy tip, very short 11" handle,
1967 Alpine - flat screw, silver lettering, sharp pointed tip no teeth, very short 11" handle,
1968 Yosemite - phillips screw, red lettering, greater curve to underside of point, 11 3/4" handle,
1968 Alpine - phillips screw, red lettering, long flat pick with 4 teeth at pick end, 11 3/4" handle,
1971 Yosemite - phillips screw, red lettering, head point hourglasses out to square tip, 11 3/4" handle,
1971 Alpine - phillips screw, red lettering, greater droop to pick, 4 teeth at pick end, 11 3/4" handle,
1972 Crag - phillips screw, red lettering, pick measures 6 1/4", no teeth, 11 3/4" handle,
1973/74 Alpine - notch, 4 teeth at tip, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1974 Alpine - notch, 5-space-4 teeth, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1974 Alpine - notch, 5-space-4 teeth, long 13" handle, blue lettering,
1975 Alpine - notch, 5-space-6 teeth, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1975 Alpine - notch, 5-space-6 teeth, long 13" handle, blue lettering,
1975 Crag - notch, no teeth, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1977 Alpine - notch, full teeth, long 13" handle, blue lettering,
1979 discontinued Yosemite hammer
Starting in 1981 picks offered with the hammers were light or dark colored. It seemed like the hammers were mix and match on light or dark tools. Also hammers came with an extra allen cap bolt and allen wrench.
Rock Hammer
Big Wall - 1.0 oz
Crag Pick - 2.5 oz
Alpine Hammer
Alpine Pick - 2.5 oz
Ice Climbing Pick - 2.9 oz
1981 Rock Hammer, notch, black 12" polypropylene handle, 19.8 oz, two picks available,
1981 Alpine Hammer, notch, black 13 1/2" polypropylene handle, 20.4 oz, two picks available,
1984 Rock Hammer, notch, blue 12" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1984 Alpine Hammer, notch blue 13 1/2" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1987 Rock Hammer, black 12" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1987 Alpine Hammer, black 13 1/2" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1988 Yosemite Hammer, 11 1/2" hickory handle, carabiner hole added to head, red lettering,
1989 discontinued Alpine hammer, Chouinard turns into Black Diamond.
1991-1993 BD catalogs do not show stamp or logo on hammers in the catalogs.
1994 BD catalog clearly shows BD logo on 11 1/2" hammer handle, carabiner hole on hammer head,
2001 BD changes to new logo printed on 11 1/2" hammer handle, carabiner hole on hammer head,
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
1966 Yosemite - flat screw, silver lettering, blunt point tip, very short 11" handle,
1967 Alpine - flat screw, silver lettering, sharp pointed tip no teeth, very short 11" handle,
1968 Yosemite - phillips screw, red lettering, greater curve to underside of point, 11 3/4" handle,
1968 Alpine - phillips screw, red lettering, long flat pick with 4 teeth at pick end, 11 3/4" handle,
1971 Alpine - phillips screw, red lettering, greater droop to pick, 4 teeth at pick end, 11 3/4" handle,
(I still have not found a difference between the 1968 Alpine and 1971 Alpine hammers)(no photo)(B-SLC?)
1971 Yosemite - phillips screw, red lettering, head point hourglasses out to square tip, 11 3/4" handle,
1972 Crag - phillips screw, red lettering, pick measures 6 1/4", no teeth, 11 3/4" handle,
1973/74 Alpine - notch, 4 teeth at tip, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1974 Alpine - notch, 5-space-4 teeth, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1974 Alpine - notch, 5-space-4 teeth, long 13" handle, blue lettering,
1975 Alpine - notch, 5-space-6 teeth, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1975 Alpine - notch, 5-space-6 teeth, long 13" handle, blue lettering,
1975 Crag - notch, no teeth, short 11 1/2" handle, red lettering,
1977 Alpine - notch, full teeth, long 13" handle, blue lettering,
-1979 discontinued Yosemite hammer
1981 Rock Hammer, notch, black 12" polypropylene handle, 19.8 oz, two picks available,
1981 Alpine Hammer, notch, black 13 1/2" polypropylene handle, 20.4 oz, two picks available,
1984 Rock Hammer, notch, blue 12" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1984 Alpine Hammer, notch blue 13 1/2" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1987 Rock Hammer, black 12" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
1987 Alpine Hammer, black 13 1/2" fiberglass/plastic handle, two picks available,
Starting in 1981 picks offered with the hammers were light or dark colored. It seemed like the hammers were mix and match on light or dark. Also hammers came with an extra allen cap bolt and allen wrench.
Rock Hammer Big Wall - 1.0 oz
Crag Pick - 2.5 oz
Alpine Hammer Alpine Pick - 2.5 oz
Ice Climbing Pick - 2.9 oz
1988 Yosemite Hammer, 11 1/2" hickory handle, carabiner hole added to head, red lettering,
-1989 discontinued Alpine hammer, Chouinard turns into Black Diamond
-1991-1993 BD catalogs do not show stamp or logo on hammers in the catalogs.
1994 BD catalog clearly shows BD logo on 11 1/2" hammer handle, carabiner hole on hammer head,
2001 BD changes to new logo printed on 11 1/2" hammer handle, carabiner hole on hammer head,
Mystery Items:
1972 Crag - phillips screw, red lettering, thin pick measures 6 1/8, plated?, no teeth, handle 11 3/4"
Interalp/Camp/Chouinard Alpine hammer, possible late 1970s/early 1980s era? Black rubber grip over metal handle,
1973 Alpine hammer, looks like it is made from a shorter Crag hammer pick, prototype?, (B-SLC)
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
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I still have not figured a way to show the difference between the 1968 and 1971 Alpine Hammers. I have seen many of these Alpine hammers, but they all seem to be the same. Solid head with 4 teeth at end of pick. Does anybody have an official 1971 Alpine Hammer that they can share a photo of?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
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Hammer Holsters
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
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Chouinard Shoes:
My biggest mystery with shoes is the Asolo Diamond Chouinard shoes.
In 1976 Chouinard started selling Shoenards, (Vasque Ascender II shoes). The Shoenards are shown in the 1976, 77, 78 and 79 Chouinard catalogs. I heard through research that the Diamonds are a later 1970s model Shoenard. But the later 1970s catalogs all list these shoes as a Vasque product where the Diamonds are made by Asolo. In 1980 Chouinard announces the new Asolo Canyon shoe. The photo in the 1980 catalog is black and white, but judging by the look, the shoes shown are the grey/blue model Canyon shoes. Other hiking boots are also listed and shown in the 1980 catalog. But the 1981 and on catalogs show no shoes available at all. So in 1981 Chouinard stopped selling shoes? The Canyon shoes were only available for one year, 1980? So when did Chouinard sell Asolo Diamond shoes? Also when did the Red version of the Asolo Chouinard Canyon shoes become available?
The Shoenards (top left in photo) were donated by Randy Leavitt.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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To add to the shoe story, the 1976, 77, 78 catalogs all show the same Shoenard Photo, but a few of the words change in the text. But in the 1979 catalog Chouinard got rid of the "Shoenard" name and renamed the title, Vasque Ascender IIs. I am just saying this because the word "Shoenard" may have been considered "the shoes Chouinard sold" so any shoe would become the Shoenard. But in this case in 1979 Chouinard made the effort to change the name to what the actual shoe was, which was still the Vasque Ascender IIs. So where do these Asolo Diamond Chouinard shoes fit in with Chouinards history? My present guess would be that Chouinard sold the Diamonds only for a few months. From January 1980 to Fall 1980, then dropped the Diamond line when the Canyon shoes became available in fall 1980. But this still leaves one mystery, when did Chouinard sell the red version of the Asolo Canyon shoes?
So the Canyon Shoes finally come in and are sold Fall Winter 1980, and they were dropped from the line January 1981? Chouinard worked/assisted the Asolo company for three years on developing the Canyon shoes to only sell them for 3-4 months and then drop the line? This does not make any sense, and there has been a lot of Canyon shoes which have been sold on ebay over the years. Maybe Chouinard had some other company selling these shoes exclusively, and that is why they are not shown in Chouinard catalogs 1981 and on? Hmmmm.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 10, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
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Go Marty!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
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Lots of scrambling to fill the void when the EBs went to a pre-molded sole/toe cap the reduced their function. EBs later switched back but the Fires had stepped in and that is the rest of the story. The Asolo Canyons were in this time frame.
The green Shoenards were amazing edging machines and reduced scary Gunks edging events into a cake walks. The tan versions were ok but in a different league. The fiberglass shanks on both broke sometimes.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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What is cool about the Eiger 1965 catalog is that it shows Chouinard Kbs and Bugaboos having the newer die-cut shape. I am sure Eiger was creating this catalog in the fall of 1964. So Chouinard gets out of the Army mid 1964 and cranks out die plates on the Kbs, Bugaboos, 1/2" and 5/8" Angles. Still no "USA" stamp. I can't say that Chouinard did not work on climbing gear while he was in the Army late 1962-mid1964 since Die-Forged Lost Arrows were "Firsts" 1963-64. 1/2" and 5/8" Angles were "Firsts" in 1965 and are shown in the Eiger 1965 catalog meaning, Chouinard had them completed for show late 1964.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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Chouinard Climaxe
One of my biggest Chouinard mysteries is this beautiful small ice axe, the Climaxe. The Climaxe was first introduced in 1972 and the construction was similar to the Alpine hammer but the hammer side of the head was an adz. Two metal plates hold the head in place, and a metal sliver wedge is hammered into the top end of the handle to expand the wood which tightens the handle within the head. Price was first $23.00 and within a year it went up to $27.00. In late 1973 Chouinard creates the new polished head design Climaxe which has a Chouinard and Frost signature engraved into the pick. But this new design had a flaw so Chouinard decided to drop the price to sell the flawed Climaxes off. Chouinard decided to get rid of them at $12.00 each, instead of the $18.00 retail they were to be sold for in 1974. The Climaxe was eventually discontinued by 1978.
What is interesting to me is that in the 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977 catalogs the price for a Climaxe remained at only $12.00 each. So over all of these years Chouinard never got another batch of Climaxes to sell for the higher price? By 1977 the Climaxes would have been selling for $25.00+ each but yet they are still listed for only $12.00.
This ebay set appeared a few years ago which brought my attention to this Climaxe mystery. For a hefty price I was able to obtain these gems. The ebay seller had no past information about the items. The Climaxe and mini North Wall Hammer (?) were made at the same factory, have same sling and are showcase mint. The hammer does not have the Chouinard stamp but has the mid 1970s new Mtn outline Camp stamp. I wrote Yvon about this set and he said he never created the hammer. I believe this set was created by the Factory in Italy as a prototype set to show Yvon and to encourage him to sell these items. The Climaxe in the set is an improvement of the flawed Climaxe. This set was possibly created 1976/1977 when Yvon decided to drop the Climaxe all together. Yvon told me that he got new shipments of Climaxes in, but does not understand why he would be giving them away for free, and for so many years.
The darker handle Climaxe was donated by Eric Kohl. Comparing these two Climaxes you can see that the prototype (right) is way more beefy than the "flawed" Climaxe (left). The handle is even thicker and the head is longer in length. I have seen a few more of these beefier Climaxes on Supertopo and ebay, one of which had a hole in the head between the adze and pick. Another Climaxe has a regular Chouinard hammer handle with the red ink stamp. Brian from SLC has a beautiful Climaxe with a long bamboo shaft and has a sticker on it saying "Bamboo." Yvon says all Climaxes only had hickory handles. So this bamboo Climaxe is another factory prototype, and judging by the head design it possibly falls somewhere around late 1972?
I know that Supertopo is full of amazing Ice Climbers, so I am asking for your thoughts on this mystery. Are all of these bigger Climaxes prototypes since it took years for Chouinard to sell off the first "Flawed" batch? I have heard that the Climaxe was not a good seller and back in the mid 1970s and there were not many climbing stores to stock.
Does anybody have a 1972 Climaxe that they can share photos of?
Does anybody know what year Camp changed their symbol from the diamond to the mountain outline?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 14, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
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The Climaxe was too light, so it did not penetrate the ice well.
I know of at least one person who wrapped lead around the head to
increase the weight, which improved it greatly.
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grey thunder
Trad climber
Hanover, NH
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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Marty,
I'm late to answer. The Chouinard Diamond was produced if not the same season it would have been the next one. The difference was the Diamond was the edging shoe and the Canyon the smearing shoe. Both were build on the same last the difference in the midsole and outsole. otherwise very similar materials involved.
Very good work you are doing, congratulations for taking history in your hands.
Bruce Franks
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
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Bruce- Is it fair to say that the Diamond was a continuation of the Ascender/Shoenard as a light wall boot and that the Canyon was designed to be more of a refined free climbing shoe that was actually built to last.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 15, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
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Bruce!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
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Karab, you hammer dates are off...
I was selling using and selling this stuff during many of those years.
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grey thunder
Trad climber
Hanover, NH
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Jul 16, 2014 - 06:00am PT
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The question of big wall vs. edging shoe development should include others.
The mid seventies was a time leading to transition for climbers and gear with respect to style of climbing and usage. Before Diamond there were had been many edging shoes created as examples from Fabiano, from Pierre Allain, PA's introduced in the 50's and from Royal Robbins, RR's introduced in the 70's by then big wall climbing was established advancement in footwear design to support that style of climbing existed but change was coming.
In the seventies there were in principal two types of shoes, smooth soles, flexible with grip for friction and another for edging, stiffer by midsole material with a lug sole as Diamond or older kletterschuhe shoes as Kronhoffer (sp)then came the RR and others. Always it was about the route and a estimate of usage.
The Canyon and Diamond were on the front end of some truly great development that began in the eighties. Do you remember the Opera by Asolo or Eldorado, they came after the Canyon and Diamond during this period other brands exploded on the market. Today I see even more specialized footwear.
I'm very happy to see such interest in the history of climbing products I compliment all contributors with images, gear or knowledge. This is worthwhile and very useful. Thank you one and all.
BF
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grey thunder
Trad climber
Hanover, NH
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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Thanks Steve, I saw Komito last fall. He's the same guy as always. Good smile great conversation and certainly an important individual.
BF
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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I updated the history list, Yeah! This is what it looks like so far:
CHOUINARD HISTORY LIST #2 ……………………………..…7-16-2014…………………………
Still looking for Chouinard info 1961 thru 1968.
LOST ARROWS…………………………………………………………………..
1957/58 Lost Arrow first created
……….(1960 Dolt catalog shows hand forged LA)
1963/64 LA Die Forged (no "USA"), eye has flat sides, no eye curve at hammer end
………(How many sizes in 63/64 set?, Since Chouinard was in the Army, who created these?)
1965 LA Die Forged (no "USA") 8 set, round tip
1966 or 67? LA Die Forged ("USA") 8 set, round tip
……..(don't have 66 catalog), (LA page same in 67 and 68 catalog).
1972 LA Closed Die Forged ("USA") 8 set, square tip
1975 LA Camp, (ITALY) pitons numbered 1 - 8, #/interalp/Camp
1978 LA Camp, (ITALY) pitons numbered 1- 8, #/Camp/Interalp
………(Camp sells same LA's in Europe)
1987 LA Camp, (ITALY) pitons numbered 1 - 8, #/camp, thick black coating
1978 Super Long Dong, (ITALY), stamped "Camp/Interalp"
1987 Super Long Dong, (ITALY), stamped "Camp", thick black coating
KNIFE BLADES and BUGABOOS………………………………………..
1959 first Knife Blade, square around carabiner hole, shows in 1960 Dolt catalog
1960 first Bugaboo, "C" but no "USA", 6 sizes, more refined square shape around carabiner hole
1964? Bugaboo with eyes on right side, no mfg stamp, die cut shape, proto? other mfg? (steve)
1964 late, new die cut shape on Kbs and Bugaboos, "C" but no "USA",
1965 six sizes available, 2 KB and 4 Bugaboos
1967 or 68? "USA" added to Kbs and Bugaboos
1968 4 sizes available, 2 Kbs and 2 Bugaboos
1971 second hole added to Kbs and Bugaboos. 8 sizes available, 2 Kbs and 6 Bugaboos
1975 I have seen Camp Italy Chouinard Kbs, but I am not sure if these were produced for the Chouinard company. I know the LAs were farmed out to be manufactured in Italy in 1975, but I am not sure if the Kbs and Bugaboos were also. History shows Chouinard making all Kbs and Bugaboos in Ventura 1980 and on. So what did the Kbs and Bugaboos have stamped on them between years 1975 and 1979? 1980 and on Chouinard may have created Camp Kbs and Bs for Europe, and Chouinard Kbs and Bs for the USA?
ANGLES …………………………………………………………………………….
1957/58 Ringless alloy steel angle
(Does anybody know what this looks like? (no "USA")
1960 1" angle, 1 1/2" angle (no "USA) pointed tips, longer overall
1961 3/4" angle (no "USA") pointed tip, longer overall
1965 1/2" angle, 5/8" angle (no "USA), straight-back "C" as stamp
1967? 1/2" angle, 5/8" angle (USA)
1967? new shorter 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" designed, square tips, "USA"
1967 1 1/4" angle ("USA"), no rivet
1971 1 1/4" angle ("USA"), stainless steel rivet added.
BONGS……………………………………………………………………
1960 Alloy sheet metal Bong, (how many sizes?), no "USA", have a 3" from Bridwell
1961 Aluminum Bongs, 2, 2 1/2, 3, 4", solid sides, no "USA" steel rivet
1965 Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" but no "USA", (one size available)
1965 Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" stamp but no "USA" (one size available)
1966/67? Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA", (one size available)
1966/67? Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" and "USA" stamp (one size available)
1968 Aluminum Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA" stamp,
( 2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 7/16")
1970? Aluminum Bongs 4 sizes with lightening holes, thicker alum stock,"C" and "USA stamp,
(2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 5/16")
1970 Steel Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", available with lightening holes, "USA" stamp, discontinued in 1972.
RURP ……………………………………………………………………………….
1960 RURP first created, one hole (Dolt 1960 catalog)
1961 or 62? RURP gets second hole and more refined look, wide back
1962? RURP stamped "C" or no stamp, wide back
1964 or 65? RURP stamped "RURP", wide back
1967 RURP stamped "C" and blade shorter, short back
1971 RURP stamped "C" and blade longer, blade is rounded, short back
1984 RURP now sold wired, short back
MISC………………………………………………………
1975 Crack N' Ups, #1 - 6, (In 1973 only ten #1 Crack N' Ups were produced and it was decided not to create them since they were too thin to hold bodyweight).
#2 - 6 started selling in 1975.
1966 Cliff Hanger first created, straight thin design and pointed like a # "7" shape
1969 Cliff Hanger, thin curled design, 1 3/8" hook curl
1972 Cliff Hanger, thin curled design, 1 1/4" hook curl, thinner and more rounded hook head
1975 Cliff Hanger, new 3-point hook design, 2 3/4" tall
1980 Cliff Hanger word becomes Cliffhanger? (one word)
1982 Cliffhanger, 3 point hook design, shorter 2 1/2" tall with longer hook curl.
1985 Nut pick, wire design with small color webbing attached.
1987 HT nut tool, "heat treated" larger holes design,
1988 HT nut tool, smaller holes design with notches under pick,
1989 HT nut tool, smaller holes design
1966 - 1970s? Chouinard also created Cadmium plated pitons for marine use. My 1 1/2" plated angle is longer pointed style so it is mid 1960s era, I also have a plated knife blade which has two holes. Two holes came about in 1971 so these pitons were getting plated for many years. I am surprised that Chouinard did not mention or offer these in the equipment catalogs.
HISTORY NOTES……………………………………………………
Steve has a prototype 1 1/2 aluminum angle.
I have a 1961 Chouinard Bong 2 1/4" prototype from Don Lauria.
Frost / Dolt bongs shown earlier for 2nd ascent of Nose, two carabiner holes.
Tom Cochrane - Frost 1960 steel bongs with lightening holes (templates)
ADDITIONS…………………………………………………………………
Looking for proof of:
Knife Blade and Bugaboo with "C" but no "USA" stamp on Mid 1960s die cut version.
Bong 2" with lightening holes aluminum with "C" but no "USA" stamp.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 16, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
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Bruce: Thanks for posting up your Asolo/Shoenard memories.
Marty: Great & wonderful work on the Chouinard timeline!
I do have a solid Aluminum 2 1/2" Bong that is stamped C & U.S.A. I pose it next to my solid 3" Bong that is just stamped C
They appear to be the same thickness of metal and the rivets are identical, but reversed.
A small change, but one that adds to your list.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 18, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
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Marty - I think that the RURP stamped "RURP" may not be a Chouinard offering. I don't recall Yvon using a block letter stamp that way on any other hardware. I have seen other RURPS with that stamped on them and no Diamond "C"
Both Gerry and Holubar stepped into the alloy steel piton market while Chouinard was in the Army and left it just a quickly once Gerry had a well-publicized death related to one of their baby angles shearing off under load partly because it was poorly placed in a horizontal crack with the eye up. The failure was traced to a tempering problem. Gerry Cunningham was a brilliant sewn goods designer but a bit out of his depth working in hardware.
I would certainly drop the Army years off of you timeline if you can sort the dates out.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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Steve, That is interesting since the RURP I have is from Art Christiansen and he snapped the tip off of it while placing it. Said it just broke. The 1966 Holubar catalog lays out the Chouinard products showing the stamped "RURP" RURP, it makes it seem like it is a Chouinard not Gerry product. Good researching for sure!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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Chouinard Stoppers
The 1971 Chouinard catalog flyer mentions that Stoppers will be available later in the year.
In 1972 Chouinard introduces Stoppers which were first shown in the 1972 catalog, a catalog which centers on "clean climbing."
1972 set: #1-4 wired, #4-7 slung. solid alum, no wire keeper, no "Stopper" stamp on front or back, "USA" is left of "C"
Winter 1972 "Stopper" stamp was added. So one side is "Stopper" and opposite side is USA "C" #. Same as 1972 stoppers but has the word "Stopper" added.
1972 Winter set: #1-4 wired, #4-7 slung. solid alum, no wire keeper, "Stopper" stamp on back, "USA" is left of "C"
In 1973 the new larger size #8 Stopper is introduced.
1973 one size, #8, slung. "Stopper" stamp on back, "USA" is left of "C", oval lightening hole through nut length.
In spring 1974 a plastic wire keeper was introduced to hold together the wires on the wired nuts. I just noticed that in the 1972 catalog the March-June 1974 version price list shows Stoppers wired now #1-6. Does anybody have a #5 or 6 that is wired and has the "USA" left of "C" plastic keeper or not?
1974 set: Spring #1-4 wired, "Stopper" on back, small colored plastic wire keeper on just the wires. Mid 1974 Stoppers #5, 6 wired.
In 1975 Chouinard added a thick somewhat clear plastic wire keeper to all of the Stopper wires which covered the wire swedge as well. 1/2 sizes were added to the original #1-8 set and the word "Stopper" moves to the front of the nut on the number face. The small sizes #1-4 may still have "Stopper" on back. "USA" is moved to right of the "C". So now "USA" is between the "C" and the number. I am surprised that Chouinard did not create a #7 with a lightening hole, or does somebody have one of these to show?
1975 set: #1-8 1/2 wired, #4-8 1/2 slung. Sizes #6 1/2, 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2 have oval lightening holes, Stopper on front, "C" "USA" #, thick clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1976 Chouinard changed the cord hole sizes on five of the slung nuts. #4 1/2 increased 5mm to 6mm. The sizes #7, 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2 decreased 9mm to 8mm. This may be because of the cord size and strength that was being sold at the stores at the time.
1976 set: Differences are in only five sizes #4 1/2, 7, 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2.
In 1978 the Stopper set was totally changed. A new set #0-13 was introduced. In the 1978 catalog the photo shown is still the 1975 set, where the chart on the page to the right shows the correct listing of Stoppers. The 1979 catalog shows a scrambled photo of Stoppers which the center Stopper is the 1975 size 8 1/2. 8 1/2 stopped in 1977. There is no listing for the #0 in the 1979 catalog. The 1980 catalog has a photo of the correct 1978 Stoppers. The size "0" I have never seen a piece or photo. Does anybody have a size Zero Stopper? Looks like it was giving Chouinard trouble and it was dropped in 1979. The 1980 Spring newsletter mentions Chouinard still trying to make the size "0" work, but it still was not included in the 1980 Winter catalog.
1978 set: #0-13 wired, #7-13 slung. Sizes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 have oval lightening holes, clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1981 the Stopper set was once again completely changed. This time the Stoppers are curved on all sides. I call these "Double Curved." Sizes #1-12 are available and a "tested" label is added under the clear plastic wire keeper. Label is white with a small word "Tested" on it in light blue, dark blue or red printing.
1981 Set: #1-12 wired, #7-12 slung, Sizes #6-12 have double curved shape, small word "Tested" on label under clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1986 Chouinard introduced a new set of Stoppers ranging from #1-13. Stoppers have straight sides for one placement, and curved sides for another.
1986 set: #1-13 wired, #8-13 slung. "tested" label under the clear plastic wire keeper. Label is white with a small word "Tested" on it in light blue, dark blue or red printing.
In 1988 the tested label changed on the wired Stoppers. The label is now colored. With the slung Stoppers there is no difference between the 1986, 1988 or spring 1991 slung set. #1 and 2 black tested label same as 1991 #1 and 2 label.
1988 set: #1-13 wired, #8-13 slung. colored tested label under clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1991 Chouinard is now Black Diamond. Large "Tested" label is added.
1991 set: Spring, #1-13 wired, #10-13 slung. different colored label with large word "Tested" under clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole. "C" is still on the Stopper face.
In Winter 1991, "B" and "D" was added to "C" "USA" stamp on all Stoppers. The "Stopper" word stamp on the stoppers is reduced in size. Same large tested label as Spring 1991 set. I don't have any of the 1991 slung version Stoppers to show.
1991 Winter set: #1- 13 wired, #10-13 slung. "B"and "D" added to "C" logo. Smaller "Stopper" word on Stoppers, different colored label with large word "Tested" under clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole.
The slung stoppers were discontinued and not offered in 1996.
1996 set #1-13 wired, "B""D"and"C" logo, colored "Three Sigma" tested label under clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole.
1998 set #1-13 wired. "B""D"and"C" logo, colored newer "Three Sigma" tested label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole.
In 2003 Black Diamond color anodizes the Stoppers. Black Diamonds new logo is stamped onto the Stoppers.
2003 set #1-13 wired. Stoppers are various colored, new Black Diamond Logo, Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole, olive colored "Three Sigma" tested label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper.
2006 set #1-13 wired. Stoppers are various colored with slight change to colors, Black Diamond new Logo, Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole, all white with black ink "Three Sigma" tested label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper.
A few notes. On many of the Stopper sets the #1-5 remained the same flat sided design. Some of the smaller Stoppers have "Stopper" on them and some don't. Do the best you can to fill in the lower #s of these sets. The age is usually determined by the wire keeper and test tags and shape of the Stoppers. For some reason on some of the earlier Stoppers the USA remained on the left side of the "C" stamp. On some stoppers the aluminum looks different, softer or more shiny. I found a few 1978 Stoppers that had test labels on them. I figure that during the changeover from one set of Stoppers to the newer design, the materials get mixed every once and a while. I am not sure if there are reasons why the test labels small print was red, blue or light blue in 1981.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Does anybody have a 1978 #0 Stopper?
Does anybody have a 1975 #7 Stopper with oval lightening hole?
Does anybody have 1972-1975 style Stopper #5 and 6 wired, "USA" left of "C", plastic keeper or not?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 19, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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The classic Tom Frost shot of Yvon with adornments circa 1972.
A few shots of the full Arsenal of sixteen Stoppers.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
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I created this chart 14 years ago as a checklist of all the different Stoppers that were created. Not all Stoppers are listed on this chart, just the ones that are different than each other. This is a July 2014 update to the past MK Stopper chart.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jul 22, 2014 - 09:12am PT
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What a powerful thread! Awesome!!
Not sure if this helps but the Catalog you posted earlier with the possible date of 1965 or 1966 - might be 1965. I just acquired a copy and that is how it was sold to me. The newest referenced date in it is 1965.
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rockjockrob
Boulder climber
Tempe, Arizona
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Jul 23, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Marty, It is time for the Tube Chocks! I only have one in my collection, but I know you are holding on to those photos, Share em Bro!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 23, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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Crank up the Mike Oldfield...LOL
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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Roots, Nice catalog! Looking at the history of Patagonia it mentions that Tom Frost joined Chouinard in 1965. So the catalog shown mentions the same about Tom and 1965 so my guess is that it for sure is a 1965 Chouinard catalog. Nice item! Thanks for sharing it!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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Chouinard Nut Tools
History shows climbers using the Chouinard Long Dong piton as a nut tool. Then Chouinard created the Super Long Dong nut tool as a nut tool. The Super Long Dong is similar to the Dolt Nutcracker, but has a notch near the blade tip. The HT nut tool gets its name from being "Heat Treated." Black Diamond still shows the 2003 version nut tool in their 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 catalogs. The 2010 version Nut Tool with signature BD symbol has been available in all stores since 2010, but is not shown in BD catalogs.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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Just got notification that as of August 1st Sport Chalet will be bought out by EMS/Bob's Stores.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
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I came across this sweet Ellis Brigham catalog which I think is from 1975. The catalog clearly shows Chouinard Climaxe available in Ash or Bamboo.
So now the out there Marty theory: Chouinard says all Climaxes only created with hickory handles. Maybe the factory in Italy presented to Chouinard a beautiful Climaxe sample which Chouinard accepted to be made. (Thinking that Chouinard did not create the Climaxe, the factory in Italy created it hoping for Chouinard to sell it). Chouinard accepts the creation ordering hundreds, which unfortunately the majority of the hundreds received in USA were flawed. Chouinard drops the price to sell off the flawed Climaxes, but for some reason over the next 4 years the price was not raised back up above wholesale. Maybe Chouinard was disappointed with the way the Climaxe turned out and was not interested in resolving the flawed problem, and stopped selling Climaxes when the first batch finally ran out. On the Europe side the Climaxe was reworked and became thicker and was available with different wood handles. Chouinard probably got a percentage from the Italy factory of every Climaxe they created, but Chouinard may not have been in control of the European distribution, hence he was not aware of the Climaxes having Bamboo handles. Once again just a Marty theory.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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Brass / Steel Nuts
1981 Brass Nuts, #1, 2, 3, 4, short wire keeper
1982 Brass Nuts, #5, short wire keeper
1982 Steel Nuts, #1, 2, short wire keeper
1984 Steel Nuts, #3, 4, 5, short wire keeper
1986 Steel Nuts, #6, short wire keeper
1990 Steel Nuts, set #1- 6, long wire keeper
1991 BD Steel Nuts, set #1- 6, long wire keeper
1995 BD Copper/Steel Nuts, #1- 6, all sides flat, dark nut
1996 BD Copper/Steel Nuts, #1- 6, angled tip, dark nut
1999 BD Swedges, #1- 6, angled tip, dark nut, tested label
The "T" on each nut shows that it was individually tested.
1981 Chouinard introduces Brass Nuts, #1, 2, 3, 4, short plastic wire keeper
1982 Brass #5 is created, short plastic wire keeper
1982 Steel Nuts, #1, 2 were created, short plastic wire keeper
1984 Steel Nuts, #3, 4, 5 were created, short plastic wire keeper
1986 Steel Nut, #6 was created, short plastic wire keeper
1990 Steel Nuts, set #1- 6, long plastic wire keeper, Chouinard / Black Diamond
1991 Steel Nuts, set #1-6, “BD” added to “C” stamp, long plastic wire keeper, Black Diamond
In 1992 the name “Steel Nuts” changed to “Copper/Steel Nuts.”
1995 Copper/Steel Nuts, set #1-6, dark color nuts, all sides flat, long plastic wire keeper, Black Diamond
1996 Copper/Steel Nuts, set #1-6, dark color nuts with angled tip, long plastic wire keeper, nut is Swedged to wires, Black Diamond
1998 the name “Copper/Steel Nuts” was changed to “Swedges.” 1998 Swedges set still has plastic tubing on the carabiner loops. Swedges name comes from the process of attaching the wires to the nut which started in 1996. The larger size nuts are swedged to the wires, not soldered. The swedge creates the angled nut tip.
1999 Swedges, set #1- 6, dark colored nuts with angled tip, long plastic wire keeper with tested label, only #1 has plastic tubing on carabiner loop.
2000 the name “Swedges” changes to “Micro Stoppers.”
1982 Steel Nut #2 prototype? Not sure if these were created or this was a prototype tester for the initial creation of the Steel Nuts. First of all #2 in the usual set is color yellow where this is Red. The end is plastic dipped. I would say maybe a climber personally dipped this item? But if you inspect the tubing on the wire at the carabiner end, (not the wire keeper), the tubing under the plastic dip is much shorter than what all of the other Brass and Steel nuts have. I believe since the tubing was so short that it kept sliding out of place so the added dipped plastic on the wires held the tubing in place. This tubing serves as protection for the carabiner so the wires do not saw through the carabiner under a swinging load. Chouinard decided to go with longer tubing on the nuts instead of dealing with the plastic dipping mess.
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life is a bivouac
Trad climber
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Here's a touch of the history regarding Yvon's Alu. Bongs...
Back in the mid 60's,1964 or 1965, Dennis Hennek, Ken Boche and I worked for Yvon in Burbank; in a lean-to adjacent to, I believe it was Lockheed property. We'd just gotten out of High School, the three of us were taking classes at Pierce Jr. College (the DRAFT was on every ones mind), yet we would skip classes now and again to work for Yvon...
One of the jobs assigned to me; as I was not very mechanically inclined, was to rivet the bongs together... I'd attempt to close the stamped out and some what pre-bent bongs, which would slip out of the toothed jaws of the Vice grips in a most alarming way, as I'd attempt to hammer the rivet.
Old dilapidated greasy cardboard boxes full of pins, bongs and carabiner blanks were scattered all around the blackened floors. I'd have to stack these against the chain link fence to get to the giant hundred pound vise that served me as an anvil. The trick, was to pinch down the corner edges of the Bong alining the holes for the rivet, while having enough clearance to beat the malleable rivet flat on said anvil...
I'd grab the Bong with a minimum of purchase, squeezing the handles together, solid hardened Vice grip teeth to Dura-aluminum, slip the mushroom headed rivet silently into mal aligned pre-drilled holes, slowly place the crowned head against the anvils platen, then with Thor's guidance I slammed the hammer down!
Twang, ping, pow, flying thru the air the Bong twirled across the shed crashing to the floor amid the uncontrollable belly laughs and guffaws of my best friends and Yvon himself...
So, you see, the rivets were for a time placed in both directions until a drop hammer was used for this step in the manufacturing.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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^^ Love that story! I can see all of that wild and free animus erupting into joyous laughter!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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McClinsky after too many hours of rivets and Bongs............
Return to Sender!
Pre Cheech and Chong, Bud Couch to Don Lauria when mailing bongs was OK.............
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Camster (Rhymes with Hamster)
Social climber
CO
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Marty,
Eric B gave me some of the bongs from the Eiger Sanction about 25 years ago. We should likely chat about what you're up to. I just found an old letter from that Duke bloke's buddy. What is his name? Abruzzi or something? The guy who sent the letter did the FA of St Elias with the Duke. It was stuffed in an old book I was given.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
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TomCochrane posted on the Marty Message thread Aug 18, 2014:
Chouinard catalogs prior to 1962 consisted of a single mimeographed sheet of paper listing pitons and prices. I probably still have one (1960) in my files if it hasn't faded to being unreadable.
He'd bring a steamer trunk full of hand-made pitons to the Tetons and stash it under Peter Lev's bunk in the Jenny Lake guides bunkhouse.
The story was that he would hammer them out on a rock in his mother's back yard from 4130 ChromeMoly aircraft steel.
To make a purchase, you first had to find Yvon, then go together to find Peter, and then go to the bunkhouse and slide the trunk out from under the bunk and select your purchase.
I still have one of those original hand-made Lost Arrows that didn't get left on a climb somewhere.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
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— life is a bivouac — Great story about the vice grips and rivets. I figured something like that was going on. I’m sure it gave Yvon a laugh watching you guys. I must say some of the rivets on the Bongs are half-ass pounded, most nicely pounded, and then some that are completely flattened.
—guido — The Bong that was mailed to Don Lauria is awesome!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
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email from Nancy McKeown Aug 23, 2014
Hi Marty~
Sorry for the delayed reply—we had both Ken Boche and Dennis Hennek visiting here over the weekend, so, haven't been online to check emails till now.
I wish I could be of more specific help, but, am happy to pass on the little bits I know (and can remember or verify) in case it might help with your project in some small way.
My first job at Great Pacific Iron Works (it was then called, though officially, it "distributed" Chouinard Equipment) was to fulfill catalog requests starting in October 1974, and, the catalog then was the Chinese watercolor-cover one, which included Doug Robinson's treatise on clean climbing. I know that it is considered to be the "1972" catalog, but, in those days, the company never really had the money to print a new catalog every year, which also explains the somewhat random collection you probably have, the lack of dates printed on them, and, seemingly-different versions of the same catalog. A way to get around the big expense of producing a new catalog was, to do those seasonal flyers as sort of updates to "hold over" until a new catalog could be produced. There was nothing "scheduled" or "regular" about any of it though... Thus, that '72 version—with a few additions/subtractions (and, you'd really have to dig into an archive in the sky to know the exact order of those changes—I'm not sure who, exactly, produced that catalog, or even who would know anymore—was stlll being sent out at least 2 years later, and, on into the fall of 1975, when a whole new catalog was produced. Possibly Vincent Stanley, Yvon Chouinard's nephew now in charge of "Patagonia Philosophy" might know and remember more details about the '72 catalog. Also possibly Roger McDivitt, who was the General Manager at the time (I could try to contact them about this if you want, or, let them know you're interested so you can contact them directly?). Kris McDivitt Tompkins was my immediate boss, and was responsible for catalog production before I took over, so she may recall some details, too. Pencil indications of required changes (I describe, below) were hers, and it was my job to get them implemented.
The initial "1975" catalog had Tom Frost's photo of Machapuchare on the cover. I have two versions of it myself. So, I compared the two page by page, and these are the changes that led to a few conclusions that you may have already arrived at yourself. In case not, here they are:
Machapuchare I (1st edition 1975):
P. 5 History of Chouinard Firsts list ends at "1975" [NANCY NOTE: a dead giveaway that this is the first version of the 1975 catalog]
Machapuchare II (2nd edition 1977):
P. 5 History of Chouinard Firsts list ends at "1977" and has additions of the 1976 Model Zero Ice Axe, and North Wall Hammer, plus, the 1977 pile fabric clothing and featherweight carabiner.
P. 27 Interesting to note that in this page's footnote, the future tense is used after "In the summer 1975... will be increased..." regarding changes in UIAA requirements.
NANCY's NOTE: I thought this catalog came out in late summer or early fall of 1975... but... either I am mistaken and it was much earlier in that year, or, this footnote was simply copied from elsewhere and not caught in the proofreading stage? It was definitely not caught in proofreading of the second edition, "Machapuchare II" which came out in 1977—with the same 1975 footnote, unchanged as "future tense."
Machapuchare I (1st edition 1975)
BACK COVER: The return address only lists "chouinard equipment" under THE GREAT PACIFIC IRON WORKS umbrella of "Manufacturers and Distributors of.."
Additional notes about Machapuchare I: the copy I have has penciled-in changes and the position indicators (that were then communicated to the graphic artist who made the changes), for the foamback raingear spread, further demonstrating that it came first. These changes are reflected nearly exactly in the later edition, Machapuchare II. Also, though some clothing was sold in this catalog, none had the name patagonia yet attached to it,. In fact, "Chouinard Cord and Wool Trousers" are listed on P. 84.
Machapuchare II (2nd edition 1977)
P. 5 List of firsts, mentioned above
P. 7 Featherweight carabiner added, replacing the "rappel system" text and illustrations
P. 25 Waterproof rope removed, image replaced with another
P. 34-35 This 2-page spread is new in this edition (runners and how to use them)
P. 41 Northwall Hammer and Model Zero Ice Axe replace the Keathley Ice Axe Sheath. Chouinard Frost Piolet name shortened to "Chouinard Piolet."
P. 47 Salewa Tubular Screws and Salewa Spiral are replaced with "Chouinard Tubular Screws" and "Chouinard Wart Hog" and in the older (1st edition) catalog, I have penciled-in instructions that say "Our tube screws" and indicate that the Salewas are to be replaced on that page in this 2nd edition.
P. 48 Use of Pitons has been re-written, as per the penciled instruction in the 1st edition on that page
P. 52 Shoenards replace Molitor Boots formerly on this page, as per pencil instructions in 1st edition
P. 71 Baltoro pack replaces "Goat-Nepal" photo, as per pencil instruction in 1st edition
P. 74 Creag Dubh and Teardrop packs replace the "Fish Pack" and "Arete VBLl" from 1st edition... as per pencil instruction
P. 76 Patagonia Pile 2-page spread added. This is the first "mention" of "patagonia" in the name of any product. Note that on P. 82, the climbing pants are still named "Chouinard Climbing Pants" and they don't even appear in the 1st edition.
BACK COVER: "and patagonia software" has been added to the return address... the first branded inklings of Patagonia!
So, the 1972 catalog covered years 1972-1975, the 1975 catalog went from 1975-1977, and then a modified version of it came out in 1977. 1978 brought a new cover image, Cerro Torre by Ruedi Homberger, and two editions of that catalog as well, which lasted until the 1980 catalog published in September 1980. No new catalogs were produced again until 1982, but in 1981, a "split" was produced: two separate catalogs, one for Chouinard Equipment, and one for Patagonia Software, each pretty much like its own section in the original 1980 catalog. Also, you're right: there were several "spring flyers" along the way, notably in both 1979 (small square, of Patagonia clothing, with shots taken in Bishop, CA), and a "blueish tinted" one that came out in early 1981. There was another huge fold-out one along the way, that I believe might have been in very early 1980 or, more likely, late 1979.
Cerro Tore i (1st edition, 1978)
Almost the same layout/graphics as the previous 1975 & 77 catalogs, but, the cover is not as thick, and, it has a glossy finish. The interior pages of this edition are like a less-expensive bond paper; the later version has a finer, thicker paper and coated finish (must've started to make some money by then!).
P. 34-35 The packs' names are listed without "chouinard" (creag dubh, teardrop)
P. 49 Chouinard Piolet (the older bamboo version)
P. 50 Northwall Hammer and Model Zero Ice Axe (older bamboo versions)
Cerro Tore II (2nd edition, 1978)
NOTE: I'm not exactly sure when this would have been produced, but, I'm guessing that the first run was depleted (after all, it was the first new catalog in 3 years and catalog requests had been building steadily!) and, when a re-print order was submitted, a few small changes were made at that time. Thus, it most likely would have been late 1978, since a "Spring Flyer" came out in Spring 1979 so, it's unlikely that both would have been produced on top of each other.
P. 34-35 "Chouinard" added to the names of the two packs listed, creag dubh and teardrop
P. 49 New Carbon-Glass Piolet replaces the older-version bamboo piolet
P. 50 Carbon-Glass Northwall Hammer and Model Zero Ice Axe replace older-version bamboo
NOTE: Oddly, the new carbon-glass ice gear is not listed in the P.3 "history of firsts" list. Perhaps the cost of changing yet another page was prohibitive, either timewise or spacewise? It appears that this new gear was ready NOW and might also have been the a reason to publish another 1978 catalog asap. Again, costs were kept at a minimum by re-using the same layout, type, photos, illustrations, etc.
The 1980 catalog, featuring a color photo of antarctic penguins, was finally printed and mailed out in September 1980. It still carried the Great Pacific Iron Works company name, but, the interior was split into two distinct sections: Chouinard Equipment and Patagonia Software.
1981 had no catalog produced, except a redux version of sections of the 1980 catalog, with a couple of different cover versions. I believe we kept running out of them, and, on reprinting, would make those kinds of small changes (eg, different cover photos). I think we still avoided using dates, since we never knew when we'd be able to get the next catalog out and needed to extend its usefulness as long as possible. So many factors were out of our control, as far as getting the actual clothing products in stock after designing them and having them made in places like Hong Kong. We were still very small, and didn't carry quite as much clout then. Thus, a still somewhat erratic publishing of semi-catalogs and flyers during those years.
I left the company in May 1982, and the woman who replaced me, Kathy Ryan, was the designer of the 1982 catalog which came out later that year. It was the first to actually accomplish what we'd all wanted to do for a very long time: feature large photos of the gear/clothes in use, with photos of the product alone (not on models) just lying on the page with a drop shadow—the very style they are famous for now. The problem earlier, when I was still there, was, no one seemed to be taking photos while climbing or otherwise using GPIW stuff (or not usable ones anyway)... Yvon just hated the model status quo, but, there was little choice at the time: we simply didn't have the images. We began to beg for submissions from the field with various offers... and, by 1982, when they finally started to trickle in, the rest became history.
Hope this helps. Even if it doesn't, it was an interesting exercise to unearth so many long-forgotten memories, so, thanks for the excuse!
Do let me know if you'd like some further input from those people I named, above. I can probably dig up some contact info for them...
Cheers,
~n
Nancy McKeown
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Marty email Reply
Nancy,
I honestly was not expecting this totally awesome historical response, but now I love you!
So I will give you the nutshell version what us collectors know about the catalogs.
— 1972-74 same cover. But there may be 4 different price lists per year.
— 1975-1977 same cover. May be 2 different price lists per year. (What is interesting is that in your comparison of your catalogs of Version I (75) and Version II (77), you did not notice the Hexcentrics on page 8 having lightening holes, so maybe you have what we call the 1976 version. Collectors identify the catalog differences this way:
.1975 Hexcentrics are solid pg.8
.1976 Hexcentrics have lightening holes
.1977 Featherweight Carabiner added to Firsts list 1977
— The 1978 catalog has same covers but Spring version (wood Piolets) and Fall (Carbon fiber Piolets).
—The 1979 catalog I have is a copy of possibly a large foldout flyer.
—1980 Spring were newsletters and there is a large Winter catalog (penguins).
So you answered the question as I figured you would. Chouinard catalogs were produced on a “needed” basis, over a year to year general order which came about in 1982. I am still working to prove my 12 different price lists theory on the 1972-1974 catalogs. So far 7 different price lists have surfaced.
— For years 1975-1977, was there only one catalog per year created? Or was there a Spring price list and a Fall price list for each of the years, making 6 price lists total?
Thank you so much for your memories. Your historical memory about these catalogs is spot on! Is it okay if I bump our conversation onto the Chouinard Gear thread? This is great history for the future generations to read.
Marty
Karabin Climbing Museum
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Nancy email Reply
Marty~
Haha, glad my sketchy memory had some value after all!
I did finally get a chance to read through the SuperTopo thread on Chouinard Mystery Gear... wow! That's a huge amount of work, putting together all that history—amazing job!
I can add a few more bits here, but, not sure if they are significant for your project, but, you can decide that. Your museum sign on the exhibit, taken from one of the flyers, is artwork done by Debi Nowak-Hawkes. She was the graphic artist who did most of the work from late 1976 onwards, through, at least, the 1982 Spring flyer. (She also created the actual Patagonia logo, though Jocelyn Slack did the Fitzroy illustration that is also famous. Debi, however, is the one who put it all together. I worked with her on the type selection, and, the lower case "p.), and I believe its first use was on the pile clothing labels, circa 1977. We ended up coming to her after a somewhat disastrous attempt to use an ad agency in Ventura, who "didn't understand us" at all. They were the ones who produced a sort of strange, very large fold-out product flyer, probably around 1976-early 1977, but, it is not the one you have pictured on the ST thread. That one was done by Debi Nowak-Hawkes under my "art direction" I guess you could say (I was the liaison between what the company/sales reps/Yvon wanted, and the artists/photographers who produced it in the form of those flyers, ads, and finally, the catalogs until I left in 1982).
As for the hexentrics, you're right: the 2nd edition Machapuchare catalog I have DOES show a different/replacement photo of the hexes with lightening holes, as well as the insertion of added copy on the next page (p.9)—a simple sentence in the last paragraph about Hexentrics #8-11 "...now drilled with lightening holes." I just missed it!
As for the possibility of a 1976 version of this catalog, I have no recollection, except to say that whenever we ran out, we ordered a new printing from the printer (who had all the film/plates on hand), with small changes as necessary (like the hexes, and, probably the price lists that are driving you crazy!). I must point out, once again, that there really wasn't anything very "regular" about it, though there were attempts to come up with seasonal updates, and, those did correspond with trade shows and seasonal buyer demands from the dealers, more or less. While I was with the company, wholesale dealers were top priority, and mail order was sort of an aside. Yvon wanted one place where someone could access everything the company sold, since most dealers couldn't stock every single thing. As the company—and its mail order list grew (and even became computerized under my very own watchful eye) this situation resulted in a mini tug-of-war between reps who felt that mail order undermined dealers. Yvon was firm, but, mail order, to my own amazement (since it seemed obvious to me that the production-cost to sell-price was far greater in retail than wholesale, though without the volume) was always relegated to a lesser concern. The workaround I suggested (because mail order was my baby!) was, to list every dealer in the catalog, and say, "if you can't find what you want at your local dealer, order from us by mail." That seemed to quiet the rabble... ;-)
When I left the company, I gathered together some samples of things I had actually worked on, which might explain why I only have the two Machapuchare catalogs I mentioned, a few flyers, the two "1978" catalogs, and the 1980 catalog, among other assorted things like lots of equipment ads (which may be of interest to you? I could scan them if you want... I don't think they have dates on them, though they are all from the era of about 1977-82). I'm guessing that either I thought that the 1976 catalog you have was not significantly different, or, I didn't feel, at the time, that the changes were significant enough to "keep" as examples of my work there (eg, just a few price list changes). I was not a climber myself, though I spent years counting each of those pieces of hardware for both inventory purposes and retail mail order shipping, and, determining "fault" for replacing broken stuff (especially crampons!). My own perspective was more that of the graphics & printing side of the catalog, and, unfortunately, I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to the minute gear changes (except later, when I had to write some of the advertising copy).
Since writing to you, I've been pondering some of the memories all this research has drummed up, so, I thought I'd add a few more notes that might be of interest (though nothing you'd put in a museum—just some perspective that might be of some value). I noticed some questions about the Climaxe on the ST thread... and can at least add this: the Climaxe was assembled right there in the Tin Shed in Ventura—the heads were attached to the handles that were dipped in vats of linseed oil, as were the other hammers, Yosemite and Alpine (I remember a particular fondness for that smell!), but I'm not the one who can answer where the heads came from (Italy? or?). The late Tom Dixon was the "hammer man" while I worked there, though several other "names" went before, like, Tony Jesson for one that I recall. As the mail order shipper, I had to beg for some of the equipment to fulfill orders, since Tom only worked part time and supply was as erratic as his schedule, which, I suspect, had a lot to do with whether or not the surf was up. On April 15, 1975, he left a huge pile of brand new Climaxes on my shipping bench with a note saying, "you wanted Climaxes, you got 'em!" (and yes, double-entendre intended in our early-twenties flirting days!). I recall the exact date because I know it was the day of Julio Varela's—the Argentine machinist par excellence who worked miracles there— 25th birthday party, at Yvon's house.
Meanwhile, I've sent an email to Roger McDivitt, who was the General Manager when I was there. I explained your project, and gave him the link to the ST thread. I'm pretty sure that if anyone would remember hardware change details, where it was coming from, and possibly even when, it would be Roger. He may not get back to me right away... but... I also included your email address in case he wanted to communicate with you directly. I did ask permission to send you his email address as well, so, we'll see how he responds. The other person, as mentioned before, who might be able to fill in some of the blanks would be Vincent Stanley, reachable at Patagonia, in Ventura (I don't have his direct contact info).
Well, hope this helps. And of course you can add whatever you want of this conversation to the ST thread (hoping there aren't too many typos though!).
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Marty email Reply
Nancy, Thanks for the great history!
There is no rush for my project. This Chouinard Supertopo thread is the developing Chouinard history museum, and I am glad that it is becoming a reunion with past Chouinard work employees. The museum at the AZ Hiking Shack featuring Chouinard products is a display that will last for two+ years. I am putting the display together as I work on this Chouinard thread.
You answered one of my questions showing that Chouinard did receive newer Climaxes in 1975, and that the handles were attached in Ventura, CA. A few more Climaxe mysteries still remain. Who put the Bamboo handles on the Climaxes if Chouinard only used hickory, and did Chouinard produce the Climaxes for Europe in Ventura, then put Camp mfg stickers on the handles, and then ship the Climaxes back to Europe? In 1974 Chouinard Drops cost of Climaxe to $12.00 because many of them are flawed. If newer Climaxes were available in 1975 why did cost never go up? In 1977 Climaxe still only $12.00.
So history changes!!! This is where collectors cheer but at the same time throw cabbage and tomatoes (because the foundation was just crumbled). Only two Chouinard catalogs were produced between 1975-1977. But when additional catalogs were needed to be printed, changes if needed were made in the newer editions. If we knew how many catalog printings were made between 1975-1977, that may show how many different versions there are out there.
Another mystery is a 1970 Chouinard catalog that was mailed and has a post office date on it of April 1969.
Roger will be fun to talk to. Thanks!
Great stuff! Now back to work, Coursesetting at the Phoenix Rock Gym!
Climb, Climb, Climb.....It's a living!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
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Camp/Chouinard Stoppers and Exentrics
I have yet to find any information on why Chouinard and Camp created Stoppers and Exentrics together. Looks like two generations were created; Generation One does not have the Camp symbol possibly c.1973? Generation Two has the Camp symbol possibly mfg after c.1976? The Generation One Hexes are stamped “Exentric” but the Generation Two hexes are not stamped with a name. I assume the Camp/Chouinard nuts are called Stoppers? Does anybody have any info on these, or a 1970s Camp catalog?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
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These are also Camp/Chouinard. Plastic tubing for the carabiner loop instead of plastic dip. So third generation Exentrics
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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Below is 9 different catalog price lists between 1967 and 1971. The price lists are in order numbered #1 - 9. I still do not know what a 1968 catalog looks like. Is it the 1967 cover or the 1969 cover, or something that has not surfaced yet?
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Your #9 is confusing. The photo seems to be a 2nd generation hex, the
"polycentric," which is surely not compatible with a 1971 dating.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Tom Frost likes to call the second generation asymmetrical version the "eccentric Hexentric."
Such an elegant design.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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When I see all this ancient gear and then realise it's still stuff I have on my rack, I feel old...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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The first generation hexes #5, 6, 7 have a round hole through the length of the nut which the hex in the #9 photo has. The left side of the nut in the photo must have been shaded or something, very poor copy quality. Hexentric history should be on the site in the next few days.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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As I have been researching Chouinard Gear for this Supertopo thread, I have been wiring the gear to display boards for the museum at the AZ Hiking Shack. There are 17 boards total to be created, and two window shelf displays. Here are three of the hammer boards.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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Here are three of the Stopper display boards.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2014 - 11:15am PT
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Bashies
Six sizes of Bashies were first offered in 1982 and were discontinued in 1984. The wordage from the 1982 Chouinard catalog says, “Bashies are soft aluminum pitons that are pounded into corners, piton cracks and pin scars. The soft aluminum conforms to the crystals and irregularities of the rock and can offer an alternative to placing bolts. White label with small “TESTED” word in light blue, blue, or red ink under clear plastic wire keeper.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2014 - 09:48am PT
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I ran into Zach Barker, a rep for Patagonia, at the Hiking Shack and scored more Patagonia schwag. Sweet! Zach was checking out the museum of cams and is psyched for the Chouinard switchover. He described Yvon's Patagonia office to me. Empty filing cabinet, no computer email, and a 1950s telephone. Simple the way life should be! Thanks Zach!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Sep 20, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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The Karabin museum won't be complete without a Schizo Hat. Anyone got a pic? The boys are probably wearing them in the photos on those catalog pages.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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Bruce! You are awesome!
Bruce sent me a box of old Chouinard, BD, Patagonia catalogs, and the Wild Country Cam Book. That WC cam book get's five stars for sure! Later in this thread I will post Patagonia catalogs. In Bruce's keep, there was this jem. Another Chouinard catalog that is not shown yet. Thanks again!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
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Wow this was a lot of work, but I think I have the lineup correct.
Hexentrics
First introduced in 1971.
1971 Hexentric, set #1-7 slung, A-symetrical shape, #1-4 are solid, #5-7 have a round hole through the length of the Hex, large cord holes, stamp (USA “C” #) on side of Hex, no “Hexentric” stamp.
1972 Hexentric, #8-10 slung added with teardrop shape hole through length of Hex, A-symetrical shape, stamp (USA “C” #) on side of Hex, no “Hexentric” stamp, large cord holes, I have also seen the # stamp on top of the Hex for #9 and 10, but more commonly on the side.
Sometime in 1972 the “Hexentric” stamp was added to the back of the Hex, while the # stamp was on the front.
1972 catalog shows a photo of a young Yvon Chouinard wearing a gear sling with drilled Hexentrics on it. Hexentrics with drilled lightening holes became available in 1976. Yvon said that he created a few drilled sets in 1972 for friends of his.
1973 the Hexentric shape changed to the Polycentric shape, named “Schizophrenic Hexentrics,” #1-10 slung, large cord holes, #4-7 have a somewhat round hole through length of Hex, #8-10 have a somewhat teardrop shape with two corners through length of Hex, stamp (USA “C” #) on hex front and “Hexentric” stamp is added on Hex back.
1973 Hexentric, #1 wired is introduced (no plastic wire keeper), polycentric shape, “Hexentric” stamp, stamped “DL” - donated by Don Lauria, At the end of 1972 into 1973 this #1 wired Hexentric became available. I am curious if anybody has a 1972 A-symetrical style #1 wired Hexentric.
Late 1973 the “Hexentric” stamp on #4-10 was moved to the Hex front accompanying the number stamp on the slung Hexes, the # stamp order changes to (“C” USA #), large cord holes, Polycentric shape. #1-3 stamp order remains (USA “C” #).
1974 Hexentric #1 wired, colored plastic wire keeper added on wires (not on swag), polycentric shape,
1974 Hexentric #11 is introduced, Polycentric shape, large cord holes, This Hex was donated by Art Christiansen who used Chouinard paper Hex templates to mark where lightening holes were to be drilled. Art never drilled the holes.
Winter 1974 Chouinard created paper templates so customers could home drill lightening holes into their Hexentrics,
1975 Hexentric #1-3 wired, somewhat clear plastic wire keeper on swag, polycentric shape,
1976 Hexentric #7-11 introduced with drilled lightening holes, polycentric shape, stamp (“C” USA #) moved to top and at outer edge of Hex, this is a good identifier to see if holes are factory drilled or home drilled, large cord holes,
1978 the cord holes were reduced on Hex sizes #6-11, from 9mm to 8mm size. Tom Frost said that the cord knots were too big, and it was unnecessary for them to hold over 3000lbs. In the 1978 spring catalog it shows Hexes with lightening holes, but in the text it mentions that they no longer offer them.
In 1978 Hexentrics with lightening holes were discontinued. A new 1978 polycentric shape was introduced, on the larger sizes the inner shape of the Hex matches the outer shape, #1-3 wired with somewhat clear plastic wire keeper on swag, #1-11 slung with large cord holes, Hexes #1-4 are solid, Hexes #5-11 are hollow, stamp (“C” USA # and “Hexentric”) on side of Hex or on top,
1981 wired Hexentric #1-3, white paper label with small “Tested” word added under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper on swag, Tested word in light blue, blue or red ink,
1988 Hexentric #11 is discontinued, new Hexentric shape is introduced, the ends of the previous Hexes are cut on a downward angle, the new Hex #4-10 is cut on a downward and forward angle, if you lay down the Hex on its largest surface, it will reveal its trapezoid shape. #1-3 wired, small white print “tested” word on colored paper, somewhat clear plastic wire keeper on swag. (88, 89, 90 catalog does not show a photo of wired Hexes so I am not positive this colored test label was used but I assume it was since the wired Stoppers and wired Hexentrics seem to follow the same pattern of manufacturing). #1-10 slung, small 5.5mm cord holes, stamp (“C” USA # and “Hexentric”) on side of #4-10 Hex, or on top for #10,
1990 Hexentrics #1-3 slung are discontinued. Company changes from Chouinard to Black Diamond. Hexes are still stamped “C” in diamond.
1991 wired Hexentrics #1-3 have large “TESTED” label print on colored paper under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper on swag, Hexes are still stamped “C.” I have not found any of these yet nor does the catalog show them, but the Tested labels on the Stoppers in the past followed the same as the wired Hexentrics, so I assume these Hexentrics exist.
1993 Hexentrics have a new “BD” stamp added, #1-3 wired (“BD” “C” USA #)(“Hexentric” on back). #4-10 slung stamp (“BD” ”C” USA # and “Hexentric”) together, small 5.5mm cord holes, #1-3 wired have large “TESTED” label print on colored paper under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper, a Registered “R” stamp is added on the right end of the stamp “Hexentric,” The number stamp on the three wired Hexes are small, the number stamp on the slung Hexes are large with small “c” stamp in diamond. I write this description since the 1993 set and 1995 set are very close in comparison. I show the differences side by side in photos under the 1995 Hex listing.
1995 Hexentrics, #1-3 wired (“BD””C” USA #)(“Hexentric” on back), large “TESTED” label print on colored paper under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper. #4-10 slung stamp (“BD””C”USA # and “Hexentric”) together, Registered “R” symbol right of “Hexentric” stamp, small 5.5mm cord holes, The number stamp on the three wired Hexes are large, the number stamp on the slung hexes are large with large “C” stamp in diamond. The 1993 and 1995 slung Hexes are very close in comparison, The easiest way to identify the differences are with the size of the “c” stamp in the diamond, but if you look close at comparing the numbers on the Hexes, you will see minor differences where two sets of different number stamps were used.
1996 Hexentrics, #1-3 wired gets new colored “Sigma Three” test label, number stamps are reduced in size, test label is under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper.
Late 1996 Hexentrics. #1-3 wired Hexes number stamps are increased in size, colored “Sigma Three” test label under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper, stamp (“BD””C”USA #) on front and (“Hexentric””R”) on back, not sure why Black Diamond kept making the number stamps small, then big, then small, then big?
1997 Hexentrics, #11 slung is reintroduced, #1-3 wired Hexes get new stamp (“Hexentric””R””BD””C”USA #) on same side, colored “Sigma Three” test label under somewhat clear plastic wire keeper, Slung #4-11 Hexes are same as 1995 set but #11 is added.
1998 Hexentrics, #1-3 wired tested label is changed, colored “Sigma Three” test label now has words “Black Diamond Equipment USA” added and plastic wire keeper is now crystal clear.
1999 Hexentrics, #4-11 Hexes slung non colored same set as 1995, #1-11 wired set and all Hexes are color anodized in three different colors - (gray, pinkish red, yellow gold), stamp (“Hexentric””R””BD””C”USA #) on same side, white “Sigma Three” test label under crystal clear wire keeper,
2001 Slung Hexes are discontinued.
2003 Hexentrics, New “BD” company logo added, #1-11 wired, Hexes are color anodized in three different colors - (dark gray, salmon, gold), the colors are slightly different than the 1999 set, Hexes are stamped with only BD new logo and Hex #, Olive color “Sigma Three” test label under crystal clear wire keeper,
2006 Hexentrics, Hex colors are changed and test label color changed, #1-11 wired, Hexes are anodized in three different colors - (black, red, yellow gold), Hexes are stamped with only BD new logo and Hex #, white color “Sigma Three” test label under crystal clear wire keeper. Many of these Hexes as they were being changed from the 2003 to 2006 version still have olive test labels mixed with the white test labels, some of the white labels are marked “Black Diamond Equipment USA,” and some of the test labels are marked “Black Diamond Equipment.” The “USA” was removed. In 2006 Black Diamond Asia was established in Zhuhai, China.
2014 Hexentrics, I stopped at the Hiking Shack today and this is what is being sold on the shelves September 2014. The colors are: (gray, pinkish red, and speckley yellow gold). The tested labels are the same as 2006, white “Sigma Three” test label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper. Label says: “Black Diamond Equipment.” No “USA” since they are made in China.
……………………………………………………………………………………..
Does anybody have a #1 wired A-symetrical 1971 Hexentric?
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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Sep 20, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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Fantastic work on the hexes. You motivated me to dig out my Chouinard hexes and look to see if I have anything you do not. A few notes/questions:
1981 red label #3 next to what I assume is a 1978 #3. The 1978 is noticeably smaller. Any idea why the shift in size?
Another example of different #5s:
A question - I believe the hex with holes is a Chouinard hex but it has no markings on it. It is between a #8 and a #9 for size comparison. Do all of yours from 1976 have markings?
Lastly, I believe these are a pair of Chouinard Bigwall Boots. Any idea what year they were made?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Sep 20, 2014 - 06:09pm PT
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Heck Marty, I can't miss getting a plug in with all your wonderful Hex paraphernalia and history.
Last year, as part of our "Climbing Heritage Series," we designed a tee shirt around the original Hex patent with some input from Tom. Here are a couple of shots of the design with DR and Tom showing off the shirt at Oakdale and an image of the "Big Daddies of Clean Climbing" signing on to the project. The shirts are available from of our company PatentWear at www.patentwear.com. Shameless hey what?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
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ClimbingOn, When the Hexentric shape changed in 1981, they reshaped all of the nuts, not just the larger ones. This is why you have two different size #3s.
For Hexentrics with drilled lightening holes, my #7, 8, 10, 11 have stamps on the top. My #9 has no stamp but I think it is home drilled due to the rough look of the lightening holes. The factory drilled holes are very clean without any visual drill gouges. I am not sure how the factory polished down all of the holes and sides of all of the Hexes they produced. Maybe they drill then cut then tumble the hexes then stamp them afterwards(?), or they hand polish all of them individually to get rid of the rough edges. Wow that’s a lot of work! Most home drilled Hexes are pretty obvious that they are home drilled. Look at the holes. Putting the stamp on the top is what makes the most sense for the factory to create. But at the same time they may have just took all of the stock Hexes they had on their shelf at the time, and drilled holes into them. This is where the lightening holes are drilled through the factory stamp on the Hex sides. Some of the drilled Hexes have no stamps at all. So it becomes super fun to collect Hexentrics, because there is no end to the variations you will come across.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
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I finished the Hexentric boards and another hammer board. I have to change the Camp hammer info on the board since it is not a prototype but called a Alaska Hammer. Stephane Pennequin with the NutsMuseum just sent me the motherlode of Camp catalogs. I am swimming in answers to many of my previous questions. Huge THANKS to Stephane for sure! With this info I should have a Chouinard/Camp story created soon. I am totally psyched!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
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When I first got the museum space at the AZ Hiking Shack, I called many glass companies to get prices to do an area 8’ tall by 15’ wide. I could not believe how much monies it was going to cost, and the heavy glass sheets being difficult to move around as well. The museum space I envisioned had to be completely modular so I could switch out the display in pieces. On a visit to Home Depot I ended up in the patio door isle and noticed a box that was discounted because it was returned and now was missing parts. The salesman there said he would give me a great deal if I wanted it. Like 50 dollars a door! I was totally psyched and stopped at two other Home Depots that day and found 6 doors total of the same model. I had to purchase them in pairs. When I got back to the Shack I placed 5 doors end to end, and they fit in the space perfectly with 1/8 inch to spare. Like it was totally made to be there!
I built a base then put a track on it which the bottom of the doors snugly fit in. The door sides butt tightly up against each other so there is no gaps. On the top of the display I built a shelf which the top of the doors rest firmly against, held in by three brackets.
The overall display is 17 boards total, and two windows which have adjustable shelves. Plus the top area section of grid wall. I have a second set of boards which I first layout the next display, and then wire the items to the boards.
The boards in the museum are set on wood tracks, and I found these cool antique brackets with an adjustable screw, which easily holds the boards in place.
So the Stopper and Hexentric boards look like this in the display case. And on the other side I added the Chouinard hammers.
I want to give a big THANKS to Art Christiansen for funding the materials to create the AZ Hiking Shack museum display case. And for his many donations over the years to the Karabin Climbing Museum. I know you don’t want me to say it, but I’m gonna say it…..Thanks Art!
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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Sep 29, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
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That looks fantastic. Excellent work. Do you have a list of gear you're still looking for?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
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ClimbingOn: For Chouinard products I have a list of Items I am still looking for. Many of the items are mentioned earlier on this thread. I have a few more climbers to visit with and then I will put together my "still looking for" list.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
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Camp / Chouinard info
I finally got some time to look through the Mountain of Camp catalogs (digital) Stephane Pennequin sent me. Stephane you are totally awesome, huge hug!!! Looking through these catalogs I am overwhelmed on how many cool collectible pieces of gear Camp created over the years. The 1980s Camp catalogs are filled with colorful climbing tights, and all the climbing gear is florescent colors……Yes!…Those were the years! For sure the info in these catalogs answer many of my questions. The information is not complete, but I was able to piece together more history on the Chouinard Camp business relationship. Many catalogs still missing.
Camp Catalogs referenced: 1969, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989.
……HAMMERS………………………………………………………………………..
The 1969 Camp catalog shows the Camp logo as the diamond version, but the 1972 Camp catalog shows the Camp logo as the mountain outline version. I do not have the 1970 or 1971 Camp catalogs, so sometime 1970-1972 Camp changed the logo from Diamond to Mtn outline. This does not necessarily show what date certain climbing tools were since Camp and Chouinard Piolets and Climaxe were stamped with the Camp diamond logo through 1974. The 1976 catalog shows all ice tools with Camp Mtn outline logo stamp.
Since we are already on the subject of Ice tools I found more Climaxe info. The 1973 Camp catalog shows four different wood options Camp offered for the ice tool handles. The Camp catalog shows the Climaxe available in Frassino or Bamboo handles, while Climaxes sold in the USA had Hickory handles. But this 1973 Camp catalog shows that this newer design of the Climaxe was retail store ready by late 1972. Chouinard is credited for the design of the Climaxe.
I am happy to finally find out what my Hammer/Climaxe set really is. The 1973 Camp catalog shows a Camp “Alaska” hammer, which is only available in Frassino handles. So my matching Climaxe also has a Frassino handle. Cool! But the Alaska hammer shown is a earlier version than the one I have. The teeth side of the pick is much more curved and the hole in the center of the head is larger, and stamped with Camp diamond logo. The 1976 Camp catalog shows the Alaska hammer I have with a straighter pick on teeth side, and smaller hole in center of the head, with Camp mtn outline logo stamp.
I also found more info on the Chouinard/Camp metal Alpine hammer. Chouinard is credited for the design and a “C” stamp is on the pick. The 1976 Camp catalog shows the Alpine hammer having a yellow rubber grip on handle and head is bright finish. The 1980 Camp catalog shows a Alpine Hammer with black rubber grip on the handle and head is bright finish. The 1983 Camp catalog shows the Alpine hammer having a black rubber grip on the handle and head is black.
……NUTS……………………………………………………………………….
All 1970s and 1980s Camp Exentrics and Stoppers have the “C” diamond stamp on them crediting Chouinard as the designer. The 1973 Camp catalog only shows a front view of Exentrics slung #1-7 so I am not sure if these are A-symetrical design or Polycentric. No Stoppers are listed in the catalog.
The 1976 Camp catalog shows many options available for Exentrics and Stoppers. The Exentric shape is polycentric available slung or wired. The catalog photos do not show what the mfg stamp looks like on the gear.
Exentric set #1-11 slung
Exentric #1-6 slung with cord from mfg
Exentric #7-11 slung with cord from mfg
Exentric set #1-11 slung, all hexes anodized green
Exentric #1-5 wired
Exentric #1-5 wired, all hexes anodized green
Stopper #5-7 slung
Stopper #5-7 slung with cord from mfg
Stopper #5-7 slung, anodized colored (green?) color not shown
Stopper #1-7 wired, clear plastic wire keeper on swag
Stopper #1-7 wired, anodized colored (green?), clear plastic keeper on swag
The 1980 Camp catalog shows the Exentric mfg Stamp is “Camp” word and “Interalp” word, no Camp logo, Polycentric shape. Exentrics and Stoppers available slung or wired, red plastic carabiner loop with 2” gray plastic wire keeper on swag.
Exentric #1-5 wired
Exentric #1-11 slung
Exentric #6-11 slung with cord from mfg
Stopper #5-7 slung
Stopper #1-7 wired
The 1983 Camp catalog shows the Exentric and Stoppers having the Camp mtn outline logo stamp. Wired Exentrics and Stoppers have carabiner loop dipped in red plastic.
Exentric #1-5 wired
Exentric #1-11 slung
Exentric #6-11 slung with cord from mfg (double fisherman’s knot)
Stopper #5-7 slung
Stopper #1-7 wired
In 1984 Camp introduces Camp Speedy Nuts set of 4. In the listing the name is changed from Exentrics to Hexentrics, and Stoppers remain the same. Hexentrics and Stoppers are not listed in the 1984 catalog separately. The set of nuts offered in the catalog is only the set of 4 Speedy Nuts, or a different set composed of:
3 pieces Hexentrics wired #1, 3, 5
4 pieces Stoppers wired #1, 3, 5, 7
1 piece Hexentric slung #7
2 pieces Tri Cams #1, 2
2 pieces Two Stops #2, 4
What is also cool about the photo below is the 4 sizes of Tri Cams with springs (photo shows only three where listing shows four). I have never seen these before. Super cool! Looking at the drawn diagram I don’t necessarily trust the concept. So you place the spring Tri Cam in a half bomber position and if you fall it then jams into place? Tri Cams lock amazingly in cracks, so why lessen your chances of the pro holding by suggestively locking the nut into place?
The 1985 Camp catalog introduces Kevlar cord, but further decreases their Hexentric and Stopper selection. In the listing it has the word “Exentric” and the word “Hexentric.”
2 small sizes of Hexentrics slung,
2 medium sizes of Stoppers slung, one colored green and one colored blue (?)
4 sizes of Speedy Nuts
4 sizes of new Pentanuts
The 1986 Camp catalog reintroduces Exentrics and Stoppers. Wired Exentric and Stoppers have assorted colored plastic carabiner loops which tuck under a black plastic wire keeper on swag. The Exentrics are redesigned where the inside shape is the same as the outside shape.
The 1989 Camp catalog shows wired Exentrics and Stoppers having short colored plastic carabiner loops, and black plastic wire keeper on swag.
……PITONS………………………………………………………………………….
The 1973 Camp catalog shows the same Chouinard pitons as sold in the USA.
The 1976 Camp catalog shows the Lost Arrows having the stamp sequence (“#” over “Interalp” over “Camp”). The Angle pitons and Knifeblades are stamped “C” diamond “USA.” This catalog also shows a Super Long Dong but it is named a Nut Cracker. This long blade Lost Arrow is credited to Chouinard for the design, but it looks like the name was not completely agreed upon. So a Chouinard Super Long Dong and Camp Nut Cracker are the same item. Nut Cracker stamp lineup is (“Camp” over “Interalp”).
The 1980 Camp catalog shows Knifeblades having “Camp” stamp added to “C” diamond. Nutcracker is one word instead of two.
The 1986 and 1989 Camp catalogs show Lost Arrows are stamped (“#” over “Camp”). Nutcracker is stamped (“Camp”).
…….STUFF…………………………………………………………………
Super cool carabiner display! I wonder how many of these were made? Probably took up a little counter space in the stores. 1984 Camp catalog.
The 1986 Camp catalog shows this hang board for sale. Okay who designed this masterpiece? I sold 22 different hang boards in my old retail shop and none were compared to this. I can see why the super strong climbers were few back in the day. With training boards like this I would be scared to get into rock climbing all together. I don’t think Camp manufactured this training board due to the look of the stone, and the hex ends suggest it may be a Entre Prises product. Does anybody still have one of these still hanging in their garage? Is this possibly the first hang board created for retail sale?
Cool 1987 Camp catalog cover!
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Oct 13, 2014 - 12:36am PT
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The 1973 Camp catalog only shows a front view of Exentrics slung #1-7 so I am not sure if these are A-symetrical design or Polycentric. No Stoppers are listed in the catalog. Marty, I tried to get a reply to this question from CAMP, without success. In fact, if the chocks are mentioned as Exentrics in the 1973 CAMP catalog, they are stamped Hexentric on the photograph.
You have all the early catalogs that are treasured in the CAMP factory.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2014 - 09:11am PT
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Stephane,
I looked at this 1973 Camp catalog photo of Exentrics twenty or so times and still never noticed that the chocks are stamped “Hexentric.” Good catch Stephane! Maybe these are the actual Chouinard brand Hexentrics before Camp created their Exentrics. The Gram weights listed includes the cord, and chocks shown are #1-7. Camp sold other Chouinard products in their catalogs, so why did Camp need to create the same Hexentrics as Chouinard, rename them for Camp, and credit the design to Chouinard anyways? Why not just sell the Chouinard Hexentrics, or maybe it weeds out the middleman for higher profit. Why didn’t Camp just redesign and create their own Exentric shape? Unless in 1973 Camp recognized Chouinard as the successful USA climbing gear manufacturer, and wanted in some way to stay partner with the name? Chouinard didn’t sell “Camp” products. But Chouinard did sell a few “Chouinard/Camp” products (ex: Piolet, Climaxe, Lost Arrow, Super Long Dong).
I like the way Camp ties off its cord for the slung Exentrics. Two separated knots create a double cord for the carabiner loop. The carabiner is the cord “point of wear” so it is doubled. Clever! I have seen this doubled construction in wired cam units, but not for cord. The double knot system may add a tiny bit more weight also. In the USA it is suggested to use a single cord with a double fisherman’s knot. On the larger chocks the single cord knot can be stuffed inside the chock as well.
Thanks again Stephane for sending me your Camp catalog surprise! Does the NutsMuseum have any 1976 Camp green Exentrics?
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Oct 13, 2014 - 09:33am PT
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2014 - 09:41am PT
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""You have all the early catalogs that are treasured in the CAMP factory.""
Stephane, Does this show that Camp did not create catalogs for years 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1977, 1978, 1979 etc, or that the Camp factory did but did not archive them for their own historical records.
Your green Exentric is fantastic!!!
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Oct 13, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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The Camp cord arrangement looks cute in the pictures, but really it is just
a grapevine (double fisherman's) which is not cinched. Under any load the
two halves will just slide against each other, and the knot will be right
at the carabiner.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
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It is tied like this to keep the knots from sliding and to create a double cord carabiner loop.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
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Looking at the plastic wire keeper and carabiner loop end, these photos show many differences making it easier to figure out when the item was created. In the 1976 Camp catalog, Camp Stoppers show a clear plastic wire keeper on swag, swag is only connecting one wire. The photo does not show what the Mfg stamp looks like. The 1976 Camp wired Exentrics show a small plastic wire keeper on wires. I wonder if the 1976 Stoppers shown are actually Chouinard Stoppers. Does anybody have a Stopper stamped “Camp” that has a clear plastic wire keeper on swag like the 1976 photo shows?
The 1980 Camp catalog shows Camp changed the plastic wire keeper to a gray 2” plastic, that is sloppy on the wires. Swag is connecting one wire and short red plastic tubing added on all carabiner loops. What is strange about the 1980 Stopper shown is the number on the stamp is centered and there is no “C” diamond stamp. The back is stamped “Camp Interalp.” In the 1980 catalog photo the Stoppers have the stamp (“#” “C” centered over “Italy”)
The Mystery Stopper shows a lot of wear. There is no plastic carabiner loop, but the plastic could have broken off from usage. This Stopper has a swag crimping both wires which eliminates the use of a plastic wire keeper. Stopper stamped (#7 “C” over “Italy”) and on back is stamped “Camp.” There is no “Interalp” stamp. The Interalp stamp was dropped around 1986(?) like the Super Long Dong shows. But I believe the mystery Stopper was created sometime 1981-1982. The Mystery Stopper has a punch on the side which holds the nuts from slipping on the wires. The 1980 Camp catalog Stoppers do not have punch marks, but the 1983 Camp catalog Stoppers do. The 1983 Stopper shown is stamped (“#””C” over “Italy”)(“Camp””Interalp” on back) which puts this Stopper sometime 1982 because, the Stoppers shown in the 1983 Camp catalog are the same but have the new Camp mtn outline logo stamp. The 1983 catalog also shows the #7 having a lightening hole, where the Mystery Stopper is solid. The Mystery Stopper is possibly what 1981 Camp Stoppers looked like. But this does not explain why there is no “Interalp” stamp.
All 1983 wired Stoppers and Exentrics have carabiner loop end dipped in red plastic.
1986 Camp catalog shows all wired Stoppers and Exentrics have an assorted colored plastic carabiner loop which tucks under a black plastic wire keeper on swag.
1989 Camp catalog shows the wired Stoppers and Hexentrics have an assorted short colored thick plastic tubing carabiner loop. Black plastic wire keeper on swag.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Oct 13, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
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Oh, I see, it's really two fisherman's knots, not just the two halves
of a double fisherman's. Maybe.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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I believe it is called a single Fishermans knot where the tails oppose. In some books I have seen it called a European death knot, where both tails are on the same side (for attaching two ropes together).
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Oct 13, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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It looks like your example is a ring bend (water knot) but the Camp
example looks like a fisherman's (two overhands jamming against each other). EDK is as you describe, lapped overhand.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Oct 14, 2014 - 12:36am PT
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Marty, in the seventies, CAMP did not publish a new catalog every year. At that time, a same catalog often lasted two or three years.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2014 - 09:58am PT
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Scuffy b - Yes, the knots are two separate water knots made out of cord. The knots are tied this way to prevent them from sliding together. Stephane shows a single example of this knot on his green Camp #11 Exentric photo. I have many wired European nuts and cams with this doubling construction of the carabiner loop, but not many examples in cord.
Stephane - Thanks for the 1976 Camp Stopper and Exentric photos. Yes it looks like for sure that Camp had Camp Stoppers in 1976. Just seems strange that Camp went from the Chouinard clear plastic keeper design of 1976 to the 2” gray plastic keeper in 1980. The Gray keeper slides around on the wires like a jacket where the clear keeper was permanent. Also your slung Camp Stoppers being colored red adds another item to the history list. Cool!
Technically your two uncolored slung Camp Stoppers could be from 1976 or 1980, but the colored red Camp Stopper is unknown since it is not shown in any of the Camp catalogs. I do believe that Camp had their own Stoppers in 1976 since they offer them colored in the catalog listing. However the catalog does not mention what color the 1976 Stoppers are. Green like the Exentrics? Or Red? The red Camp Stopper you have is a valuable piece of history!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
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Wart Hog
Ice Screws
No ice tools or accessories are shown in the Chouinard 1967-68 catalog (gear front cover). In the early 1969 catalog, (price list with photo version), is the start of Chouinard selling ice screws. The list below is ice screws that were offered through the years in the Chouinard catalogs. This story gets interesting when compared to what Wart Hog history is shown through Camp catalogs.
Chouinard catalogs:
1969 early: Salewa Tubular 2 sizes, Charlet-Moser screw
1969 late: Salewa Tubular 3 sizes, Salewa Spiral Piton, Charlet-Moser screw
1970: Salewa Tubular 3 sizes, Salewa Wart Hog, Charlet-Moser screw
1971: Salewa Tubular 3 sizes, Salewa Wart Hog
1972: Salewa Tubular 3 sizes, Salewa Wart Hog, Charlet-Moser screw
1973: Salewa Tubular 3 sizes, Salewa Wart Hog
1974: Salewa Tubular 3 sizes
1975: Salewa Tubular 4 sizes, Salewa Spiral Piton
1976: Chouinard Tubular 4 sizes, Chouinard Wart Hog
1978: Chouinard Wart Hogs discontinued
The history with Chouinard brand ice screws starts in 1976. It is interesting that Chouinard did not list Ice Screws or the Wart Hog name in the Chouinard “Firsts” list. The Salewa Spiral Piton is the same item as the Salewa Wart Hog. I am not sure if Salewa was first to come up with the “Wart Hog” name, or if Chouinard did since the first year it was offered (1969) it was named a Spiral Piton and the last year it was offered (1975) it was named the same. But all of the years in between it was renamed the Wart Hog. I believe the question is: What name did Salewa give their Wart Hog Spiral Piton in their early 1970s catalogs?
I have a early 1976 Chouinard catalog price list that lists Chouinard Ice Screws, but does not list a Chouinard Wart Hog. I have another 1976 Chouinard catalog that lists Chouinard Ice Screws and the Chouinard Wart Hog.
The top Wart Hog is Chouinard, and below that is a Salewa Wart Hog. Chouinard has a teardrop shape clip eye and Salewa has a oval shape clip eye. Both brand Wart Hogs have a thick pattern of metal spiraling around a center shaft, with one end thick and the other pointed. This type of Wart Hog I refer to as Super Wart Hogs (or “Thick version”). The earlier Salewa Spiral Piton Wart Hog I refer to as a Wart Hog (“Thin version”) since smaller metal points create the spiral effect, over the actual metal wrapping around a center shaft. I am not sure what year Salewa created their thick version Wart Hog (mid 1970s?).
Chouinard Wart Hogs discontinued in 1978. (Only sold for 2 years?)
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
This is where the fun begins. Now let’s lay out the Chouinard Wart Hog history through the Camp catalogs.
1973 Camp catalog shows a listing with photo of a Chouinard Wart Hog, thick version. If they were retail ready for sale in Europe by 1973, then why did they not appear in the Chouinard catalog until 1976? This 1973 Camp catalog listing states “Chouinard design.”
Looking at the 1976 Camp catalog, it lists a Wart Hog that is “Chouinard design,” but the photo shows a thin version Wart Hog with Chouinard teardrop clip eye. 1976 is when Chouinard introduces the new Chouinard ice screws and Chouinard Wart Hog thick version in the USA. All of the Chouinard Wart Hogs I have seen is the thick version. Does anybody have a thin style Wart Hog with Chouinard brand name on it? Maybe Camp created a Camp Wart Hog and credited Chouinard, because the Wart Hog shown is the same as the Camp brand Wart Hog shown in the 1980 Camp catalog.
In 1986 the thick version Camp Wart Hog was named “Super Wart Hog.” Camp offers both the thin Wart Hog and the thick Wart Hog in their 1986 catalog.
In 1983 Chouinard created the Ice Screw Wrench for screwing in Chouinard Ice screws. In 1984 Chouinard increased the teeth count on the wrench to further ease in placing ice screws. So there are two versions of this wrench. In the Chouinard catalogs the wrench is colored black, but I have seen a red one also.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 16, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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Marty: Interesting to see those Camp catalog pages. Thank you for taking the time to post them.
Re your thoughts/questions on the Chouinard Warthog.
What I own matches your thoughts and photos for the "thick" version shown in the Chouinard catalog photo.
I did weigh one of mine. It weighs 125 grams.
Your Camp 1973 catalog photo shows their thick warthog at 103 grams. Of course almost every manufacturer of outdoor gear lies about gear weight, but by the 1976 Camp catalog, what you term the "thin warthog" is shown as weighting 135 grams.
In the Camp 1980 catalog, their "thick" Chouinard-style warthog is shown as weighting 130 grams.
So------the "thin" Camp Warthog weighs more than the "thick" Camp & Chouinard Warthog?
Looking at the 1976 Camp catalog "thin" warthog, it does not show the flat area where the eye attaches. That would likely be easier to manufacture, but would add a few grams to the weight.
Looks like they kept altering their designs------which is good.
Here's some photos of my Chouinard Warthog.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Oct 16, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
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Wow, Steve, great stuff!!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Oct 16, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
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I have the same warthog Fritz does, near as I can tell.
Weighs in at 126 grams on my scale and was purchased in winter 1976 at just about the time they came out in the usa. The Salewa model I kept seeing at the time did not have the pear eye and was quite a bit lighter. I lent the one I had out to my partner about 30 years ago. I expect he'll ship it back as soon as he is done with it. I'll weigh it then.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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Looking at the three different Wart hogs.
-Chouinard Wart Hog 1976 (left)
-Chouinard Designed Wart Hog 1973 Camp catalog (center)
-Salewa Wart Hog circa ? (right)
The center Wart Hog appears to be made of both the Left and right Wart Hogs. Left has pear shape eye and longer hammer post end. The right has thicker swirling teeth that starts directly from the eye where the Chouinard has a straight shaft to the first tooth directly from the eye. The right also has an oval indention on the shaft above the eye where the mfg stamp is and the center Wart Hog also has this indented oval (can barely see it).
Marty's out of the box theory: The 1973 Camp catalog Wart Hog to me looks like a Salewa with a Chouinard eye. Maybe Chouinard was working with Salewa on creating a new style Wart Hog which came out to be the 1973 Chouinard designed Salewa Wart Hog. The old style Salewa Wart Hog shown in the early Chouinard catalogs name changed in 1975 from Wart Hog back to Spiral Piton. Maybe Chouinard and Salewa had differences so they split up and Chouinard kept his designed eye and Salewa was forced to an oval eye. Chouinard redesigned the Wart Hog creating the Chouinard Wart Hog (thick) which was not ready until 1976, where Chouinard then drops all Salewa ice screws all together from the Chouinard catalog also introducing Chouinard brand ice screws. This does not explain the Chouinard designed Wart Hog thin version shown in the 1976 Camp catalog.
-Does anybody have a Salewa style Wart Hog that has a Chouinard name embossed on the shaft? Looks like 1973 Camp catalog Wart Hog (center).
-Does anybody have a Salewa Wart Hog with a pear shaped eye?
-Does anybody have a thin style Wart Hog with a Chouinard name on it?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
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Borrowed the scale today from Zen Lizard Systems, Chalk
Weighed five times with two different scales, got the same results.
The 1986 Camp Super Wart Hog looks exactly like the 1976 Chouinard Wart Hog.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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Tube Chocks
First introduced July 1973 in three sizes: #4, 5, 6. The width of the tubes are all the same but the length varies. On the bottom side of the chock one of the holes is oversized. This is so webbing or cord can easily be pulled through and the chock can be carried in a vertical position.
Spring 1974 sizes #4 1/2 and 5 1/2 are introduced.
1975 Chouinard catalog shows new Tube Chocks, set of five. “The chocks have two fillets machined at the apex of their tapered ends which help to prevent the chock from rotating in a crack by providing a wider base at the pivot points.” So for collectors there are basically 10 Tube Chocks to find, 5 Tube sizes solid, 5 Tube sizes notched.
Not sure if there was any rhyme or reason to the Mfg “C” stamps and #s on the Tube Chocks. I have seen them stamped on the top, on the sides, (“USA””C” #) or (“C””USA” #) or just (“C” #). One stamped 5 1/2 and another stamped 5.5. My guess would be the oldest Tube Chock is the #5 with the long “C” stamp and no “USA.” But the long “C” stamp is from the mid 1960s and by 1973 most Chouinard products had the USA stamp, which makes the #5 just another random thing?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2014 - 06:45am PT
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Hans Florine visited the Phoenix rock gym friday and got to check out my new PatentWear shirt!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2014 - 07:52am PT
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I finally connected with Phoenix climbing local (legend) Tom Taber. Tom established many routes in Arizona including many cracks at the Overlook climbing area in Oak Creek Canyon. Tom over the years developed his own personal museum of gear which I got to pick through last night. I found a few more items not shown yet on this thread.
This first photo below shows a 1965 medium thick Lost Arrow, which completes my 1965 set, a 1963 Lost Arrow thin with wafer blade (pink), and a 1960 steel 2 1/2 bong (green). The 2 1/2 steel bong is a total gem which compliments the 3” steel bong I have from Jim Bridwell. So still searching for a 2” and 4” steel bong with no lightening holes to prove its existence. Chouinard does not mention what sizes of solid steel bongs were produced in 1960. The firsts list only states “1960 Alloy sheet steel bong,” which now there is proof of two sizes. The green paint suggests that the bong originally belonged to Art Christiansen.
This second photo shows three aluminum bongs painted pink. The 2 1/2 bong with lightening holes is the thinner aluminum version with the larger center lightening hole which is only stamped with the “C” diamond and no USA. This shows that the thinner aluminum bongs with the lightening holes were produced before the thicker aluminum bongs with lightening holes were. The other two solid aluminum bongs shown are from the early 1960s. Tom Taber drilled the additional two holes in the bongs for the webbing.
This third photo shows a 4” aluminum bong with lightening holes painted pink. This bong is the thinner aluminum version which has “C” stamp and “USA.” So bong was produced mid 1960s. The second photo and the third photo show that in the mid 1960s, basically 1965/1966 time, there were four sets of bongs available. Earlier on this thread Fritz shows a solid aluminum bong having the “C” stamp and “USA.” So the four differences are:
-1961-1966 solid aluminum with “C” stamp.
-1966 solid aluminum with “C” and “USA” stamp.
-1966 thin aluminum with lightening holes and “C” stamp.
-1966-1968 thin aluminum with lightening holes with “C” and “USA” stamp.
The Marty theory is that in the mid 1960s Chouinard and Frost were experimenting with aluminum bongs having lightening holes. Already on the market was solid bongs with the “C” stamp so they stamped the new lightening hole bongs with just the “C” stamp as well. A short time afterwards they created the “USA” stamp which was put onto the newer thin lightening hole bongs. They had extra stock of the older solid aluminum bongs which got stamped “USA” and then the older stock was sold off.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
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My deadline to complete the Chouinard Equipment display at the Arizona Hiking Shack was by Thanksgiving 2014, and I beat it by one week. Five months of work and it was totally worth it! Seeing the Chouinard display all in one piece is quite inspirational! I am actually surprised that I had this many Chouinard pieces on hand to show. Another Karabin masterpiece completed! 17 panels, 2 shelf displays, and a top grid section for soft goods. Thank you to everybody for your historical input and comments toward the many Chouinard products shown. Thank you to everybody who have donated items to the Karabin Climbing Museum over the years. The AZ Hiking Shack has all of your hiking and climbing gear needs, and is located 3244 E.Thomas Road in Phoenix.
Five month project, 8 cans spray glue, 450 feet of wire, various color poster boards, foam core boards, 150 feet of double stick tape, paint and wood 1/2” boards. The photos of the gear was shot in my back yard on the sidewalk between the house and garage. Sidewalk concrete was poured in 1945. My cat Sasha inspected every piece of gear as the photos were taken. Photos were taken by a iPhone 4S camera. Musical inspiration: Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Grand Funk Railroad, Rush, Who, Jethro Tull, The Doors, Animals, Robin Trower, Santana, Motorhead, and more.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
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Wow, I even see a Baechli in there, impressive collection.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2014 - 11:10am PT
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Yes I paid the big ebay price but I finally got a Chouinard Wart Hog for the Museum.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 27, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
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That display looks great Marty! Thanks for posting up the pics!!
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Nov 27, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
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Bump for an incredible display! I am driving home from Sedona tomorrow and want to check it out on my way through Phoenix!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2014 - 06:53am PT
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Found a few more Chouinard catalogs that are not shown yet
This catalog is shown previously on this thread but with the name Great Pacific Ironworks on the cover, where this catalog shows Chouinard Equipment on the cover
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Thanks for sharing all that gear history Marty. Great job with the exhibit!
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Excellent effort Marty! That is a very very nice display.
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Jeff Thomas
Trad climber
Milwaukie, Oregon
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Marty
The following advertisement first appeared in the May 1967 issue of Summit. I think the text near the bottom of the ad - "Send for catalog and treatise on the use of Chouinard Equipment for Alpinists" - probably answers the question when the catalog with a Yosemite Hammer and pitons on the front cover was available. It also indicates that the treatise on the use of Chouinard Equipment that you previously displayed on this thread with the red cover was also available by May 1967.
Note that there are three other ads for the 1967 Chouinard catalog in the 1967 issues of Summit including June 1967 (page 34); October 1967 (page 28); and November 1967 (page 32).
Finally I checked all Summit issues for 1968 and 1969 and there is no similar ad for the 1968/1969 catalog with the ice climber on the cover. There are however numerous photos in Chouinard ads in Summit in 1968 and 1969 that also appeared in the 1968/1969 catalog; however all of these photos are posted without any text about a catalog.
Hope this helps. More later on the 1970 catalog.
JT
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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Jeff, Awesome find! This surly gives proof when the catalog was made.
Thanks for posting it!
Maybe the Mazama museum can answer a few more of the mystery questions?
Happy New Year 2015!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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WOW Marty, I just viewed your final display! What an incredible effort, thanks for all the energy and time dedicated to this portrait of history.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Climbed on Glenwood Falls with those Charlet Moser screws back in '76. And hell, I was just following and still thought they were sketchy and scary as hell. The same year I took a thirty footer onto a #2 Crack 'N Up free climbing in Eldo and would rather take those dives all day than risk a single fall onto one of those Charlet Moser screws.
Marty, real nice exhibit work.
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Jeff Thomas
Trad climber
Milwaukie, Oregon
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Marty
Below are three Chouinard advertisements from 1970 issues of Summit Magazine that will help you narrow down the time when the 1970 Chouinard catalog was publically available. Note that the 1970 catalog is a foldout brochure and could be more accurately described as a supplement.
The Jan 1970 advertisement states "send for catalog." This ad could be referring to the earlier 1968/1969 catalog and is therefore not definitive.
The April 1970 Summit advertisement is more to the point in that it describes gear "new in '70" including the Chouinard ice axe, and also displays the photo that is on the front cover of the foldout brochure. This exact ad repeats in the June 1970 Summit on page 32.
The May 1970 Summit Advertisement specifically mentions a "new catalog supplement." This exact ad repeats in the July/August 1970 Summit on page 35.
Seems as if you could safely state in your history that the 1970 foldout brochure was available by May if not April.
JT
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Jeff Thomas
Trad climber
Milwaukie, Oregon
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Marty;
Like you I have been uncertain as to when the Chouinard catalog with the photo of the ice climber on the front cover was first published.
However yesterday John McCormick of Beaverton, Oregon pointed out the photo of Fitz Roy on page 29 of the catalog. (John hosted Yvon Chouinard in Portland in 1970 at the Mazama Annual Banquet when Yvon presented the Fitzroy film. John was therefore attuned to the date of the climb and the date of the photo.)
The photo caption is short “Cerro Torre from SW Ridge of Fitzroy” and the photo credit in back of the catalog is also short, simply stating “C. Jones.” However the same photo on page 29 of the catalog also appeared as “plate 2” in the 1969 American Alpine Club Journal immediately following the lead article on the third ascent of Fitz Roy by Doug Tompkins.
The caption in the Journal reads, “Within ten meters of the summit of Fitz Roy… Photo by Christopher A.G. Jones.” The AAJ account states that Yvon Chouinard, Rafael Tejada-Flores, Richard Dorworth, Christopher A.G. Jones and Douglas R. Tompkins reached the summit of Fitz Roy on Dec. 20, 1968 and were still carrying 100-pound packs out to their van on Christmas day.
Since the party was still packing out on December 25, the Chris Jones photo likely did not arrive back in California until 1969, and therefore the catalog could not have been published until 1969.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2015 - 07:17am PT
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A few older Chouinard gems showed up recently on ebay. Not in the best condition but up for auction.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 17, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
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The knifeblade is definitely Longware by the orange paint and I informed the seller of that detail and it didn't make his listing. The darker background photo in the listing is much better.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Jan 17, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
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A 1969 Chouinard Catalog just sold for $222.50 on eBay.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 17, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
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Same seller.
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Farley
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
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Marty -
As promised by Jeff Thomas, here is a picture showing a number of hand-forged Chouinard "Lost Arrow" type pitons from the late 1950s. Acquired from a prominent Valley climb who will remain nameless; unquestionably 1958 or 1959. Note the diamond C stamping which seals the deal.
[photoid=394950]
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2015 - 07:23am PT
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Farley / .....Jeff,
Thanks for posting pictures of the first Chouinard pitons. So beautiful! This is proof that Yvon had a “C” stamp when he first started creating pitons. However attention to stamping everything took a few years practice to perfect. Very nice wide diamond shape stamp and large C.
The ebay Knife Blade looks pretty close to a Chouinard. My guess is that all ebay items from that seller was from 1961. The deeper cutout shape near the eye on the ebay KB looks like the cutout shape for the 1961 Bugaboos. All of the LONGware pitons I have are unpainted which shows that the paint could have been aded by the enduser.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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Dick Long used orange paint on his gear sometimes that matches that on the KB in question.
I agree that your photo is a match so this must have been a Chouinard KB possibly owned by Long but not made by him.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jan 19, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Spoke with the seller and this stuff (assuming all of it) was owned by Steve Komito. He said Steve was not a big name climber but the super stars frequently lived at his house. So maybe it was owned by Long...
Expensive bids!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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I just interviewed Komito last year and I uncharacteristically didn't ask him about his gear...Rats!
I am glad that his items fetched a handsome price, as they should.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Jan 20, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Found a near minty pair of Canyons today! They still have the little gold size sticker on the insole. Was there ever a definite determination if these were sold for longer than just 1980?
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Jeff Thomas
Trad climber
Milwaukie, Oregon
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Jan 20, 2015 - 05:14pm PT
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Marty
Photo shows a four inch 1960 Chouinard alloy sheet steel bong with the diamond C stamp but no USA. As you stated in your e-mail this morning this site now shows proof for a 2.5, 3, and 4 inch 1960 alloy sheet steel bong. Maybe someone out there has a 2 inch size?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 20, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
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Jeff: Thank you for your posts on Marty's great thread. You are all doing good work in gear history!
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Jan 20, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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The blue Canyon was sold until 1982, at least.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 20, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
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Jeff Thomas, You can't go 50 feet at Smith without running into one of his routes. Here he is a few months ago getting ready to rumble.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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Photos below are LONGware donations from Don Lauria.
The LONGware Knife blade is much different than the Chouinard.
2" Bong from 1959, Knife Blade from early 1960s.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 11:35am PT
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Dick pretty much copied the original Wilts Knifeblade design with respect to his shape and methods grinding the taper on the blade before tempering.
The orange paint that threw me off up thread is readily visible here.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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1968 and 1971 Alpine hammer differences
A few weeks ago I was looking at the array of Chouinard Hammers being sold on ebay and suddenly a “Buy it now” listing popped up. A Chouinard Alpine hammer which looked slightly different than the usual ones I have come across. The first thing I noticed is the head, which looks rectangular from the side view. I have been searching for a true 1968 Alpine hammer for a long time, and I believe I found it. I admit paying $140 hurts the wallet a bit, but the item being in A+ mint condition and almost 50 years should retain it’s value. For what I have found is that most people have a 1971 Alpine. Google images also shows 99% of hammers with this shape head look like 1971 version.
During 1968 the hammer sling screws were switching over from flat head style to phillips. So the hammer may have a 1968 Alpine head with phillips screw or possibly may have a longer 11 3/4 handle.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
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This photo is a few pitons sold in a big lot of pitons on ebay a few weeks ago. I kept the photo because the center piton looks odd to me. Maybe this piton is the 1960 steel 2" piton that we have been looking for? However it looks like, but I am not 100% sure, that is has a "USA" stamp with the "C" , which the 1960 steel bongs did not have. Hard to tell if the piton scratches make it look like a "USA" stamp, otherwise this may be a 2" bong that snuck out of the shop without lightning holes sometime mid 1960s.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 28, 2015 - 11:46am PT
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Marty- You are looking at sawed off angles. Use the unmodified 5/8" angle for scale. The 1 1/2" angle has USA in the stamp by my eye.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2015 - 06:55am PT
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Steve, I understand that the pitons are sawed off. What caught my eye is how much material there is under the rivet showing that the piton eye is not centered. Looking at the photo below you can see how my 1 1/2 has the hole in the center, not more toward the right.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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You are comparing the piton in question to a much older one when looking at the hole position and spacing so I don't think you have a 2" angle in the auction listing.
I bet the hole diameter is consistent though as a basis of comparison.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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So the search for the 1960 2" Chouinard Steel Bong continues!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Do you have the catalog citation or listing for the 2" without lightening holes?
I just might have one in storage!
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Jeff Thomas
Trad climber
Milwaukie, Oregon
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Marty;
Per the 1968 Chouinard Alpine Hammer several posts back see the photo below for the Mazama Museum example.
Unfortunately I cannot tell you when the original owner purchased the hammer.
The similarities between your hammer and the Mazama hammer are the dimension around the point where the handle meets the head and the rivet connecting the tangs to the handle.
The picks are slightly different and the Mazama hammer has a Phillips screw.
Other similarities or differences are difficult to gauge without putting the two together.
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Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
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Mar 12, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
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I bought my early-series alpine hammer used while living in Leavenworth, WA in 1975.
It came with the '68 head's pick-shape+length and the handle's rectangular section below the head is tapered like a '68, but the anvil is oval and the lanyard screw is philips.
Also, the length of the handle is 11-5/8". I'm calling it a '69 or '70— haha!!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2015 - 11:18pm PT
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Steve, I don't have any mfg information on what sizes of steel Bongs were available in 1960. The wordage on the Firsts list only states "Alloy Sheet Steel Bong" but so far three different sizes have surfaced. It would be awesome if you have a 2" steel bong to show (no lightening holes, no "USA"). Also not shown yet on the thread is a 2" 1961 Aluminum bong (no lightening holes, no "USA"). The 2" I show is actuality a Chouinard 2 1/4 prototype from Don Lauria.
I assume that Chouinard had sold many 2" aluminum bongs in the early 1960s, but I am surprised on how hard they are to find. Even the milk crate of bongs I got from Jim Bridwell contained no 2" size. Maybe his climbing partner had the 2" bongs, who knows.
Jeff, Great photo! Looks like a Christmas gift set!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
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I was digging through a box of old catalogs that Scott Newell recently sent me, and it included a few more gems to add to this thread.
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Farley
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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As requested by Marty, see photo showing both aluminum and steel bongs without "lightening" holes. Stamped Chouinard without USA, dating from 1960 or 1961. Steve Roper collection.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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Farley - super cool! The left Bong in the photo is a steel 2" Bong with no lightening holes first created in 1960. So this thread now shows all four steel bong sizes which lead to the four sizes of aluminum Bongs. Originally it was unknown to how many sizes of Bongs Chouinard created. The Bong has Chouinard diamond "C" stamp but no "USA." The Bong right in the photo is a Chouinard 1961 aluminum 2 1/2 Bong Bong.
So the steel bongs are covered but the thread is still missing a photo of a aluminum 2" Bong, no lightening holes, "C" diamond but no "USA"
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 30, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
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Did he supply measurements to confirm that? The principal eye diameter is uniformly 3/4" so those look to be a 2 1/2" and 3" to me. I wrote him to let him know that you were after a single hole 2" steel bong specifically.
The bottom piton is stamped YC and I liberated it from a route on Haystack in the Winds. It is a match for the 1 1/2" angle at the top and I am not aware that he ever sold this size commercially.
The fabrication is pretty rough so this may have been one of Yvon's first attempts at saving weight by going with aluminum. The material is thinner than anything Yvon actually sold that I have ever seen.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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Steve, he says he measured the bongs but they do look a little bigger than his measurement. The aluminum bong looks like a 3"
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 31, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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Pretty sure that they are as I described them.
I don't have a 2" single hole aluminum bong in my collection either.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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Farleys 2" steel left and Martys 2 1/2 and 2 1/4" aluminum bongs, center and right.
I believe Farley has a 2 1/2" steel showing, not a 2"
So the search for a 2" steel or aluminum Bong continues.
Steve you are the man that can unlock this puzzle. In your travels please locate these 2" bongs!
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Just got back my bigwall footlocker from safekeeping for 10 years.
Thought you might be historically interested. 3 photos.
Bob Pinckney
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Yes, Marty.
A few more closeups
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Giant T nut - if this is the correct one
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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My favorite is the Cassin pound in bolt!
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Old Chouinard carabiner
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Side view of I-beam
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nice photos.....to think we actually got up things climbing with that stuff!
Just cleaned out the garage and aside from a few pitons I keep around for alpine climbs I'm actually completely free of any antiquated gear!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
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Pinckbrown, Fun stuff for sure! What is in the ziplock baggie second down? Looks like flat alum hangers? Also if you have a 2" steel chouinard bong no holes, please give us a photo.
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Yes, they are homemade 3/16 alum keyhole hangers.
I will take closeups of both the keyhole hangers and
the 2" Chouinard & post shortly.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
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Beautiful photo! but we need a side view photo of the 2" chouinard Bong.
Is the Dolt hanger stamped Dolt or how do you know it is a Dolt?
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Homemade alum 3/16 keyhole hangers, plus welded
plumbing strap 3/16 keyhole hanger, 3/16 rawl bolts.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nice Bob!
Chuck always spoke very highly of you and the adventures you two had.
Those keyhole hangers you made look similar to the ones that bosque and lars used on the 9 oclock wall... He gave me one of them.
Bomber!
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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I'm not sure they are 2". Measure in at 1 3/4". 2 are
sawed off and flared with the ends brazed, 1 is stock.
Rusty flat hanger is not stamped Dolt. Came from
the Nose route on El Cap 30 years ago.
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Hi mucci,
I've similarly heard the same thing about you!
Had great times with Chuck!
Bob
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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I believe the purple slippers are Sportiva's. Chime in
if you know different.
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Ney Grant
Trad climber
Pollock Pines
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Bob,
Great stuff! You have quite enough for a museum all by yourself. Really wonderful you kept all the old bolts. Doesn't seem likely you thought you would use them again so perhaps you had some foresight in keeping them?
Ney
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
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Yea those pitons are only 1 1/2," That 2" chouinard steel bong rascal still evades this thread!
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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There isn't much difference between the small and large size Fishhook Chock, and they made right and and left hand versions as well.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Master Marty, could you please send me a good scan of the Fishhook Chock part from your 1976 MSR catalog? I have very little information about this tiny nut... And... of course, I have not any MSR Fishhook Chock at home...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Stephane no problem. My scanner has been broken for a while thats why I have been posting all stuff in photo form. I will send you the MSR info soon once I get the new scanner. I looked for this fishhook for about 20 years because I thought it was just a hook and I love hooks! But when I saw it listed as a chock it is kinda scary! I would think the metal tab would just fold flat on even the shortest fall. Maybe it is designed as a weight only aid chock.
I believe Pinckbrown has his MSR fishhook reserved for me, but I will let it go to you in Corsica because the Nuts Story Nuts Museum should have a sample of this item as well. I will let you work out the details with him.
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Fish hook goes to whom ever you guys decide!
Dug around in the footlocker some more and
came up with this:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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If you are letting go of some of this gear I would be very interested in buying or trading for the hammock. I will send you a pm right now.
Thanks for showing us these items.
Cheers!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
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Super cool. I have a Forrest Hammock in green and also red.
Pinckbrown - please send the Fishhook Chock to Stephane. This automatically gets you on his end of the year Holiday card list. Fun!
Steve - also ask Pinckbrown for one of his large LONGware bongs. They are special!
And Pinckbrown consider sending one of your large LONGware bongs to the Yosemite Museum.
Ok then.............
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I am more than set on Longware bongs personally but Ken Yager at the YCA likely has a few holes in his collection still if you are willing to check with him.
Bob- Any idea when those slippers were made as they look like prototypes?
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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pinckbrown, many, many thanks for your very kind attention. Your MSR Fishhook Chock would be nothing less than a treasure for the Nuts Museum. To date, I have only secured all the rare information that mention this amazing little chock. I even contacted Ed Tieman a while ago. Ed was a MSR employee/gear tester from the very early days. Unfortunately, Ed doesn’t have one as it came out after he left MSR.
Marty, thank you very much for promoting my work here again!
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Tony Puppo
climber
Bishop
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I have a pair of those Sportiva slippers. The pair above looks like they have been modified with some shortened eyelet stays from Mariachers
Mine have no laces and I'm guessing they are 80's vintage or whenever it was that the Mariacher was in vogue
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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When looking a little more closely at pinckbrown’s excellent photographs, I have discovered that Charlie Porter had made different variations of his magnificent I-Beam chocks. The #6 (the biggest of the range?) is different from the sample in the Nuts Museum.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:56am PT
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Mountain Safety Research Fishhook Chock 1975-2015!
Never could I have let past this eventful 40th birthday! After all this time of hard slog and labour, a dream has become true thanks to a Supertopian’s immense generosity…
Here, I would like to express my gratitude to Robert Pinckney for parting with a sample of a very rare MSR Fishhook Chock and for kindly sending such a treasure to the Nuts Museum, here in Corsica.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 23, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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Thank you for these nice photgraphs!
Great to know Bob's face.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 23, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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I looked for this fishhook for about 20 years because I thought it was just a hook and I love hooks! But when I saw it listed as a chock it is kinda scary! It's both.
Basically an early beak.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:28am PT
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Marty, thank you very much for the close-up of the MSR catalog 1976!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
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Gunks Jesse
Trad climber
Shawangunk, NY
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I realize these may not be directly related to rock climbing and are more likely for nordic endeavors, but does anyone recognize them? Tag says "Nordic Specialties 237 Carlo Drive, Goleta, CA 93017"
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
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A few days ago a gal dropped off a box of old magazines books and stuff for the museum. In the box was this gem: Clean Climbing 8 1/2 x 11 paper book 12 pages. The information is the same as in the Chouinard 1972 catalog with illustrations but no photographs. Included is a writeup by John Stannard, “NUTS in the SHAWANGUNKS.” The paper book was provided by Chouinard Equipment and the Eastern Trade for free distribution to the climbers of the Shawangunks. Thanks Pat and Sue for the donations!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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The earliest 1972 Chouinard catalog has “50 Cents” printed on the inner front cover. Already by March 1972 the catalogs were changed to “One Dollar.” The March - June 1972 catalogs have a product ink stamp to the right of the single column price list. (Ink stamp added after the catalogs were printed). The earlier catalog covers were rough in texture, and the later 1974 catalogs were made with a smoother thick paper stock.
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11worth
Trad climber
Leavenworth & Greenwater WA
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May 16, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
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Three MSR Fishhooks on EBay now under Vintage Climbing
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 17, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
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Marty: Interesting info on the early 1972 Chouinard catalog, since I have not seen one before that was marked 50 cents. Nor have I seen a late 1974 version with smooth paper.
I have three of the series that I have dated as 1972, 73, & 74.
The 1972 one cost $1.00, does not have Great Pacific Iron Works at the top of the price list, which the 1973-74 versions do have. Mine also has the price changes & the addition of Camp 7 & Kelty stamped in on the side of the price list, which your earlier one does too. I'll call it fall 1972.
My 1973 version has some price increases,the Great Pacific Ironworks header, and in hard to see vertical print at lower left is marked 1973.
My 1974 version has some new products & price increases & in hard to see horizontal print at lower left is marked March 15 1974 - June 15 1974.
All have the same cover.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
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ebay post:
Climbing Hammer
Vintage US Military rock climbing hammer. Piton style about 12” long with original black lanyard. Stamped 02154, 350 and made by Royson Engineering Co. in PA.
I always wondered who made the military hammer and there it is! I used that hammer to place over 1000 bolts and never liked it because the head always wobbled. I believe I got it from Michael Chessler with a batch of Army pitons late 1990s
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
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Fritz - I still believe there is a different Fall Winter 1972 catalog since in the 1973 catalog is states items "Planned" for the '73 season. It makes it seem like 73' was not here yet when the wordage was put on the catalog. but then they left the wordage on all of the '73 catalogs. For the '74 season it is the same "planned" wordage. I am not sure how many trade shows there were in 1972, but trade shows today will use that wordage in the summer materials they are handing out for the following season. Prices already reflect the following year season. You know the show lingo. Thanks however for posting that '73 catalog price list. now I have a cleaner copy!
Please everybody if you have a 1972 Chouinard catalog with a different price list than the ones shown on this thread, please share!!!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 18, 2016 - 08:27am PT
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Marty: Re your wondering about how many trade shows there were in 1972. I got into the outdoor business as a retailer in July of 1973. For the first few years after that, the only trade shows that outdoor companies showed at in the U.S. were small ones sponsored by associations of ski & outdoor gear reps. The WWSRA (Western Winter Sports Representatives Association) sponsored a spring & a fall show each year in a few western cities. I went to their Seattle Show.
The other big outdoor show, the Las Vegas based SIA (Ski Industries of America) show was not at all welcoming to climbing & backpack gear companies. I think the spring of 1975 a new Las Vegas show, The Snow Show was started for the outdoor gear companies. It continued as a March National show for a few years, before combining with the SIA.
I appreciate that during 1974, Chouinard may have been revising his catalog 4 times a year. My later history memories have just two price list revisions a year. I agree with you that a new catalog & gear lineup would be presented in the fall for spring delivery, then only minor changes would be made until the next year.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2016 - 09:10am PT
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Fritz - You got into the outdoor business in 1973. Wow I bet you have seen and held a lot of gear. I wish I could download your brain! I agree with you that it is a good bet that there are 4 different 1974 catalogs because one of the 1974 catalogs specifies prices March-June 1974. The ringer on my side is that I have three different 1972 price lists (single column), the third in progression has the goods ink stamp off to the right side. I will share the price lists but you will have to wait till I return from work today. I got routes to set and bills to pay.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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I lined up the Chouinard 1972 - 1974 catalog price lists below in order, or at least I believe they are in order. I am not positive exactly in what season of the year each price list was produced so my season tags may be not entirely correct. Anyways 25 years of searching and so far 9 different price lists are found.
There is no differences between the 1973 mailer price list and 1973 catalog price list except for the price on the Deluxe Jacket and the Expedition Jacket are switched. The mailer states that “this is the new updated price list for the 1972 catalog." In 1973 mailer it states available late summer: Supergators, Mountain Pack, Big Wall Pack, Alpine Pack, Ultima Thule.
Note: The GPIW newsletters have printed on them - Spring, Winter.
The Chouinard Catalogs 72'-74' do not specify a season, except for Mar-June 74'
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
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I can already hear Nancy McKeown laughing at us as we continue to attempt to make Chouinard catalog dates concrete.
:)
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Tipkiss
Trad climber
CA
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May 19, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
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What's up with this thing?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 19, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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Forrest nut tool during the pin-to-nut transition.
Seating a wobbly nut with a good whack helped calm the nerves...
... and testing fixed pins...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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Forrest Bam nut tool
Its a hammer, a nut tool, a multi position nut pro, and a rigid quick draw
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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No mystery here, but the man at work:
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Michelle Labrague
climber
New York
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Oct 16, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
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Hi!
First thank you so much for posting these catalogue images and discussing the differences between them! These are such a great resource.
Im a PhD Candidate working in design and environmental history and the development of American activewear and Im using the Chouinard Equipment catalogue as a key piece of material evidence. Im wondering if any owners of that seminal catalogue, have any additional object based details they'd be willing to share? Since I can't afford to buy a copy of this catalogue myself and library or archive copies have been difficult to come by, Ive been relying on digital scans that the climbing community have so generously posted. Since everything is digital, Im wondering about its physical properties that aren't gleaned from the digital scans-
How much does it weigh?
Whats the paper stock like? thick, thin? What does it feel like? Is there more than one type of paper stock used in a single edition? For example the cover seems like a thick, textured paper (close to cardstock?) while the interior pages are lighter weight and glossy? or lighter weight and matte?
Im realizing that these subtle changes might also be useful in attempting to date different versions of the catalogues as well- combined with your wealth of information on changes in tools allow for the fleshing out of the development of climbing practice in environmental history.
It also looks like there are different colors of paper in the catalogues as well?
What is the binding? stapled?glued?
Whats the printing quality like in person? clear and clean? more like a xerox?(they look pretty sharp in these images)
Just trying to get a "feel" for what it would be like to read a physical copy and hold one in my hands.
I realize there are different versions so perhaps there are also physical differences between editions that might be outlined?
Thanks again for any details you are willing to post! This information is a great help while writing my dissertation,
Very Best regards, Michelle
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 16, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
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I don't have one, either, but I remember looking through it at the time.
> How much does it weigh?
Like a small guidebook, maybe about 2 biners.
> Whats the paper stock like? thick, thin?
Thick or medium.
> What does it feel like?
> Is there more than one type of paper stock used in a single edition?
> For example the cover seems like a thick, textured paper (close to cardstock?)
> while the interior pages are lighter weight and glossy?
> or lighter weight and matte?
Yes, the cover is slightly textured, and the interior pages are lighter, but not glossy.
> It also looks like there are different colors of paper in the catalogues as well?
There are slightly different versions; check with Marty to see if there are color differences.
> What is the binding? stapled?glued?
Stapled.
> Whats the printing quality like in person? clear and clean?
Yes, clear and clean.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 16, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
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The catalogues were durable and seemed a blend of product marketing and experience marketing. As Chouinard was a must have line for any climbing shop in the US, the messages delivered was a step towards unifying how American climbers pursued the port and perceived themselves.
This series of catalogues and Mountain Magazine from the UK were major influences on a generation of climbers coast-to-coast.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 16, 2016 - 09:37pm PT
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Michelle: Thanks for asking. Both previous answers are from folks with good memories and accurate opinions.
I just weighted the 3 Chouinard 1972-series catalogs I mention up-thread.
With order form & price list, all have 72 pages inside the covers.
Fall 1972 6.9 oz. = 195 g.
1973 6.8 oz. = 192 g.
1974 6.7 oz. = 189 g.
Cover is heavy stock & textured.
Inside pages are heavier than any catalog cover I've seen in ages, but non glossy.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 16, 2016 - 10:01pm PT
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Oops, the mavens are here, in force . . ^ ^ ^ ^
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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On October 15 the Arizona Hiking Shack organized a community fun day at the store which included a big sale, outdoor gear swap, Tips and Tricks seminar by Randy Propster from Backpacker Magazine, food, etc. So Jaime Gangi insisted that the Phoenix Rock Gym be present at the gear swap so I was roped in to getting a bunch of stuff together to swap. No problem, and our booth space was styling and in the shade! A few other people set up tables and the Arizona Mountaineering Club also set up a booth and had a few things for sale from Phoenix local Wally Vegors.
Fifteen years ago I visited Wally’s estate and purchased a few museum trinkets from him and I thought I got all of the prizes from his 1940s rack. But at the gear swap I wandered over to the AMC booth to inspect what he had brought and it only took a few seconds before total shock hit me, and I went into fainting mode. The AZ Hiking Shack is where my Chouinard museum is on display, and three of the items missing in the museum were sitting there on the table for sale. Late 1960 Chouinard Knifeblade 2 sizes and late 1960 Chouinard Vertical Knifeblade, $10.00 each. The Vertical Knifeblade is listed as priceless and I happened to purchase it at a gear swap located 25 feet away from my Chouinard Museum display. What are the chances of that?
What is beautiful about these three Chouinard trinkets is that they show proof of Chouinard’s transition from a square eye piton profile, to a angled profile and added notch. The Chouinard Pitons shown in the March 1960 Dolt catalog have a square profile, but by 1961 the notch was added to the Knifeblades and Bugaboos, and shortly after the Vertical Knifeblade was no longer made. The square of the eye on the blade side was angled sometime late 1960, and notch by mid 1960. Looking at Wally’s two Chouinard Knifeblades, one has a square profile and one a angled profile, and the Vertical Knifeblade has the angled profile. Cool!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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The shapes make good sense when you consider that Yvon was cutting them with a band saw back in the early days before the mid - 1960s when Tom Frost joined him and dies were drawn and fabricated. Most of those older blades show the band saw work as they look like a coin edge.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 20, 2016 - 10:30am PT
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Marty! Big congrats on "catching" those early Chouinard Knifeblades & thanks for sharing photos & info on their history.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Nov 20, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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Chouinard Equipment had firsts,but i can not think of one that was attributable to Yvon.
There is a long list of firsts from Tom Frost, who was Yvon's partner during the early years.
and there were many copies of what someone else had already done.. Even the Diamond C logo was an imitation of Salathe's Diamond Peninsula Company logo which was on angles Yvon also imitated. From the time Tom Frost left, to the outsource engineering of two axeled cams, i cannot think of one original product from the Diamond C.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
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Good question about Chouinard originals:
Ice screw ratchet.
The Chouinard Skyhook predates Dolt
Chouinard was first to change the shape of the hex shape nut.
Crack N up was the first beak style piton
Tube Chocks
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Nov 20, 2016 - 06:03pm PT
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But were those not all Tom Frost?
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Nov 20, 2016 - 06:10pm PT
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by the way, Charles Cole has one of those Diamond Peninsula pins...yes with a diamond P logo
He was kind enough to loan it to my shop for a while.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
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Didn't Yvon and Tom work together on many of the gear creations and decisions?
Besides making improvements on gear that already existed, what "new" creations does Tom/Yvon get credit for anyways?
Ice screw ratchet.
The Chouinard Skyhook Cliffhanger predates Dolt (Cassin 1955 made Fiffi hook)
Crack N up was the first beak style piton
Tube Chocks
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Nov 20, 2016 - 08:36pm PT
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The first use of something much like tube chocks may have been on Pipeline at Squamish, in 1966. Sections of pipe sawed to fit endways in a wide crack.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
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Mighty Hiker - Yes understood. But the discussion here is about a product that has a company name, heavily manufactured and sold to the public for climbing use. The product may have a patent, cataloged, or at some time the company was liable for taxes on the product in some way.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2016 - 08:36am PT
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The Chouinard Carabiner beginning story from Marty’s mind….
I believe the first thing that Yvon Chouinard created was a Lost Arrow and that was in 1957. But in 1957 Chouinard’s biggest intention was to create the first ringless angle pitons. I have yet to see a drawing or photo of these 1957 angles, but they are mentioned in the Chouinard firsts list. I believe the third item on Chouinard’s mind was creating a carabiner, which in 1957 the carabiner was only in the drawing stage of creation.
In the same 1965/66 Chouinard catalog as the Chouinard firsts list, is a mention of the carabiner stating that it was first introduced in 1958. It actually states, “The first Model was introduced in 1958…..then years following it went through gate and spring changes.” The first Model Chouinard carabiner did not have the word “Chouinard” on it and only a handful were made early in 1958. The gate was slightly shortened and rounded on one end and is considered the Model II, but I feel that there were only a handful of these made as well just to be used as test items given to friends.
In the March 1960 Dolt catalog it states that “during the 1959 climbing season” (Spring - Fall?), Chouinard introduced the Model III carabiner to the outer public. So I know all of the collectors and historians have the amazing Chouinard carabiner dialed into 1957, but facts are facts. So in reality the Chouinard carabiner was not mass produced until 1959 and it was considered the Model III. The Model III name got dropped since the other two models were just short runs for testing. However in the 1966 catalog Chouinard still uses the word Model to describe the carabiner.
So Fritz I love you, and you are the Chouinard carabiner master historian, but you throw aside the word Model when describing the 1957-1959 story of the Chouinard carabiner. Chouinard I am sure helped Dolt with Chouinard product wordage for the Dolt 1960 catalog, and Chouinard uses the word Model in his 1965/66 catalog so I believe the “Model III” description words in the Dolt catalog came from Chouinard personally.
For the confusion in the firsts list I believe that Chouinard in 1964/65 when he first created his firsts list, was most proud of his Chouinard carabiner and wanted it to be listed first overall. So Chouinard combined the two years showing that sometime in 1957-58 a carabiner was created, angels, and lost arrows. Otherwise if all three of these items were first created in 1957, then why also mention 1958? Also why did Chouinard not just list the carabiner as first made in 1958? The gear historians are the ones who push this carabiner as being sold to the public in 1957.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:46am PT
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 12, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
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It always cracked me up that the "Chouinard firsts" were Frost firsts, and that as soon as Tom Frost left for Colorado to start Chimera, the Photography Lighting equipment company, firsts at the diamond c, ceased. Yvon could however see great creativity in others, and repeatedly copied someone else's great design.. maybe not as well made, but still functional. oh ok Julio did a great job with the D, but that still was not the guy who took credit for it all....
The real Yvon Chouinard respectable legacy. was what a wonderful employer he was, how really great he was at marketing, and what a great corporate example he has been as a citizen.
The lost arrow was not a creation, but a near exact copy of Salathe's design. Even the logo was a near exact copy of Salathe's logo for the Diamond Peninsula Company. The Diamond P!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
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From Steve - To be clear about the succession of distinct very early Chouinard carabiners, Yvon had dies made to have Alcoa drop forge the carabiner bodies. These dies eventually wear out and the replacement die often reflected subtle design improvements.
The very first die lot did not have CHOUINARD incorporated into the raised lettering on the bodies as they arrived. Tom Frost pointed this out to Yvon the first time that he pulled one out of his pocket and introduced it to Tom as his own product. American made hardware other than military surplus was rare and Tom was a bit skeptical of Yvon's claim of ownership and commented "besides, I don't see your name anywhere on it."
Yvon's quick solution was to have his name carefully ground into the existing first die before the next original die lot was produced. Because the original die was already made and hardened, the added lettering was far from crisp and distinctly raised as compared to the intentional lettering already present in that die. I like to call it the "ghost of Chouinard".
So you have two versions of the first die runs with only the original die lot of perhaps a few hundred lacking "CHOUINARD." I am not quite sure how Bill arrived at his model designations as per his catalog but I don't think it was a direct reflection of the succession of dies as much as perhaps the detailing on the gate or other machining that would have changed once Yvon began assembling and finishing the entire carabiner in quantity.
In any case, the anonymous Alcoa is the rarest of the early Chouinard carabiners and thanks to a timely gear purchase by Roots we have a few examples to show and discuss. Tom's story was the clue that got me looking past the ghost of Chouinard in the first place finally arriving at the proper historical perspective. I haven't had the opportunity to ask Yvon about any of this as I have still not met or interviewed him but hope to in the near future.
Steve - is there still 3 versions of the early Chouinard carabiner?
No Chouinard
Ghost Chouinard
More crisp Chouinard
or was there just 2 - No Chouinard, and ghost Chouinard?
Just wondering if when they made a newer die other than the first, they more perfected the Chouinard word?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
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I still believe that Chouinard was classifying his first carabiners as models. The Model III was the perfection. In the 1965/66 catalog Chouinard writes "the first model Chouinard carabiner....', but why does he say that when the second Chouinard carabiner wasn't created until 1968? So why say the first model when there is still only one style carabiner, unless there are other Chouinard carabiners to compare it to as progression.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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Marty- I can't recall seeing an Alcoa biner with CHOUINARD lettering as crisp as the "820" and "Alcoa" so I think that those biners were made from a single die which was engraved with the ghostly CHOUINARD after the first die lot. If you have seen one then a second die was employed to continue production.
I think the model designations had more to do with gate assembly details like the hinge pin material, springs and some other machining details that you point out in comparison. To establish that a second die was involved in producing the Alcoa biners you would need a variation in the body shape as they came from Alcoa rather than variations in the finishing of said bodies.
Yvon was competing with army surplus oval carabiners which were very cheap so I am not sure that he sold a lot of them at a higher price early on.
Without asking Yvon directly about this there is now way to work out the Model designations in Bill's catalog. I think it had more to do with Bill's discerning attention to detail as the product was improved during production.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
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I finally obtained the 1982 Chouinard #5 brass nut that I was missing. What it looks like is that Chouinard used a mix of blue wire keepers and clear light brown wire keepers in the 1981-1982 time, then went back to the clear light brown keepers only.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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It's all so complicated...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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Showing here is the 2015 Black Diamond Stopper set. This is the new vibrant colors Black Diamond offers made in China. I have noticed recently that now the Stopper tags are printed made in the US or USA. I am not sure if these Stoppers are actually fully made in the USA, or the parts are made in China and final assembly is in the USA, or actually just the mfg hang tags are the only item that is actually made in the USA. But there is a change.
The new 2017 Stoppers are no longer stamped with the Stopper number and no manufacture logo. The numbers are now printed on the test tag on the swag located under the clear plastic wire keeper. The 2015 Stopper test tags are white color and the new 2017 test tags are black color.
I have noticed that there is almost no difference between the 2015 #1 and #2 Stopper. The size thickness and width is exactly the same. The only difference I can see is at the top of the nut where the wires fit through the nut, and the overall length of the nut is 1/32 longer. The 2017 #2 Stopper is much bigger than the 2015 version.
The 2017 Hexentrics are now offered in a six color range similar to the stoppers. The Hexentrics have no number and no mfg logo stamp on them. The size number is now located on the black test tag on the swag located under the clear plastic wire keeper. Made in USA hang tags. The colors started to change in 2015 so on the shelves you may find older stamped hexentrics with the new colors but have the older white test tags.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Thanks for that post, Marty! I'd definitely noticed that problem with the sizing of the #2 stopper. I'm jazzed it's been fixed and will have to go get a few #2s.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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I was looking through some old catalog pages and then I noticed a listing for a Chouinard "Extra Thin" Bugaboo. I don't think this Bugaboo is mentioned on this thread yet. The catalog page is from I believe 1966 Ski Hut catalog. I have not seen these Extra Thin Bugaboos listed in the Chouinard catalogs but here in this catalog it has its own item number. Chouinard Pitons item "G"
What is weird is that the Chouinard catalogs only list that Chouinard created 2 Knifeblades and 2 Bugaboo sizes from 1965 to 1971. The Bugaboo Medium and Thick sizes were not available until mid 1971 and have two holes on each piton. So how is it that the Ski Hut 1966 catalog is advertising Chouinard Medium Bugaboos for sale when they were not created by Chouinard until 5 years later?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 19, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
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Marty! Woohoo! Another bolt from the blue! I've got a few of what I thought were old Chouinard Short Thin Knifeblades & Heidi has a good-quality Caliper.
I note: the Short Thin Knifeblades in your Ski Hut catalog scan were listed as:
1 1/2" long, 1/8" (= 0.125") thick, & 1 1/OZ.
The Extra Thin Bugaboos were listed as 1 1/2" long, .025" - .080" thick, & 1 1/2 OZ.
I'll be measuring tomorrow, in the cruel light of day, under 7-X magnification.
One note, to others that want to play this game. Chouinard added a second hole to his Knifeblades & Bugaboos in 1972, per his catalog copy. Marty's challege applies only to pre-1972 one-hole Knifeblades.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 20, 2017 - 08:47am PT
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to my slight distress, I find I currently own 11 pre-1972 Chouinard Short-Thin Knifeblades & 3 of those are now re-defined a Extra-Thin Bugaboos.
Here's the collection:
Here's how they break-down. Heidi's caliper only gives me fractions of inch measurement & I rounded measuremnts to the nearest 32nd of an inch.
In the Ski Hut catalog copy, they show criteria for the Extra Thin Bugaboo to be .025" to .080" blade thickness. That would be thickness just before the eye, which is the last useable thickness, when driven into a crack. Also the length figure is blade length to the eye.
Converting decimal inches to fractions, the range for Extra Thin Bugaboos is about:
.031" = 1/32"
.0625" = 1/16"
.078" = 5/64"
I have three that qualify at 1/16" thick.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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Fritz, Very nice breakdown. My thought is that since the item is a thin Bugaboo the back end still has to measure 1/8. But from the eye to the tip of the blade it is squished down to measure .025" .080" blade thickness. .....The one I have looks hammered on both sides of the blade to give it its thin appearance. Yours also look hammered on both sides.
The second question is where is the Chouinard proof that medium Bugaboos were being produced prior to 1971? The 1966 Ski Hut catalog lists two medium Bugaboo sizes available that were not produced till 5 years later. Hmmmmmm. Maybe Chouinard produced 4 sizes of Bugaboos when he first came out of the Army in 1963/64 time. Maybe then he dropped the medium Bugaboo size completely and by the first 1965 Chouinard catalog, it only lists the thin Bugaboos. Ski Hut continued to sell off the overstock Chouinard and LONGware.
I know on previous posts on this thread I list that there were Medium Bugaboos produced in 1966, but that proof came from the Ski Hut catalog, not from Chouinard catalogs.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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The 1966 Holubar catalog also lists the Extra Thin Chouinard Bugaboo. In both of these cases the Ski Hut and the Holubar catalog only list one Knifeblade. I wonder if this extra thin Bugaboo eventually became the second Knifeblade listing? Of course between the two catalogs the measurements listed are different.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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Fritz - Chouinard must have rounded up or generalized on his item weight listings. In the catalog the short thin Bugaboo should measure 1/8 thick x 1 1/2 length equalling 1 1/2 ounce. Fritz it is interesting that almost all of the items you measured including the Knifeblades are weighing up to 1.85 oz. I don't think Chouinard's listed item weights is a good way to determine where the Extra Thin Bugaboo fits in.
It is interesting that all three Bugaboos you list that have no markings on them are heavier than all of the rest.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 20, 2017 - 10:26am PT
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Marty: Thanks for your thoughts. I can't quite make out the thickness of the Extra-thin Bugaboo in your 1966 Holubar catalog photo. Please help me out.
I do agree that based on Chouinard's catalogs from 1968 on, that Bugaboo variations come & go.
1968-two Bugaboos
1972- six Bugaboos
1976-two Bugaboos.
Also, Farley posted this 1965 Very-thin Bugaboo blueprint photo on ST in Feb. 2016. If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like blade thickness at the eye is 7/64"
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:17am PT
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I'm reading that as blade thickness at the eye is 1/8", and blade thickness where the taper meets the angle bend is 7/64"
Interesting tolerance allowances down on the bottom left too. +/-1/64" overall, but +/-0.008" on the blade thickness. I wouldn't have thought they could have achieved 16 thousand's tolerance on something like this.
K
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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You can get 1/8” 4130 or 4340 Steel straight from a rolling mill with +- .003” to .005” without resorting to precision grinding. And .005” is what machine shops around me work to if you don’t specify your own tolerances. One I go to has a sign on the wall that says so.
https://www.precisionsteel.com/spring-steel/4130-heat-treatable-strip/tolerance-data
I buy precision ground O1 that’s +-.001” in thickness and -.000” to +.005” in width. I can’t tell it isn’t spot on with precision Starrett calipers. If I get a different result, my impulse is to check the calipers, not the steel.
(Full disclosure, I don’t send them out for calibration, but they get treated pretty tenderly)
+-.008” strikes me as pretty loosely goosey. That’s near 1/128” . Lots of woodworking gets there. I thickness wood in my planner to ..005”, and it’s just an old Delta lunchbox model.
+- 1/64” is just doing it by eye.
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hammerhead
Mountain climber
Eastsound,Wa.
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
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You can see the hammer marks in some of the photos from where the blades were drawn out to an
even taper .
Most likely this would have been done at a full forging heat on a fairly small fast power hammer set up with flat dies with rounded edges.
An experienced smith could easily do this by eye in one heat to the tolerances required.
This would probably take less than a minute once the blank was at forging temperature.
It looks like any spreading of the material at the tip was ground back to size .
Were these left as forged or was there additional heat treating steps afterwards to relieve any residual stresses or to improve mechanical properties ?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Of course to further the investigative fun, the Holubar 1966 info is opposite the 1966 Ski Hut catalog info. Good times!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 21, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
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This 17" long Sewn Nylon sling arrived this week, along with some Chouinard biners that date to about 1977. It has a slightly tattered label that reads CHOUINARD EQUIPMENT FOR ALPINISTS. The white sling is about an inch wide & a 1/4" thick or more, thicker than any nylon sling I remember.
A search of my Chouinard catalogs from 1968 to 1985 doesn't turn up anything like it. Yes! The Chouinard biner with it is one I haven't seen previously either. It does date to about 1977.
Any knowledge of the sling folks?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
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Ray- Those were sold as gear slings very early on as they were a bit more comfortable than straight tubular webbing and strong enough to be used as a runner in a pinch. The two-inch seatbelt webbing rolled gear slings were around by the time I started climbing in 1970.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 21, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
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Steve! Thanks & a Happy Solstice to you!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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Right back at you Ray!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2017 - 06:10am PT
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Fritz.......... 1969 Chouinard catalog
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 22, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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Woohoo! Thanks Marty! That nails it!
It does show up in my 68 Chouinard catalog, but without a photo & it shows in the price list of the 1970 catalog that introduces the Piolet.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
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Fritz - Many thanks! This carabiner is wonderful! For now I am listing the mystery Chouinard carabiner as "Chouinard Prototype, made sometime 1974-1976. Its shape and gate matches the 1977 Chouinard carabiner, but the mystery carabiner is stamped with only the Chouinard diamond symbol, and other carabiner side is blank.
Very nice item to receive on Christmas Eve! Once it is added to my Chouinard carabiner display board I will share a updated pic of the overall board!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2017 - 06:37am PT
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
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On the display board the 1978 Oval shown is actually the 1987 Oval. I can fix that! Anyways here is some more ways to identify the difference between the two Ovals. 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures the Oval having flat gate ends and I notice that the Chouinard stamp on the carabiner body is upside-down. Actually it is the only carabiner Chouinard produced with the stamp upside-down. Not sure if they were randomly stamping the Oval, but the photo shows that the carabiner existed.
The 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures a Oval but the hinge end of the gate is covered up. All of the other carabiner models shown in the 1987 catalog have bullet gate ends so I assume the Oval also has bullet ends. The 1987 Chouinard catalog also shows the mfg stamp is right side up.
Anybody have a 1978 Chouinard Oval they want to donate to the display? (flat gate ends), Fritz may be looking for one also!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
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Dolt gives us the answer on why Chouinard Bugaboos are so many different odd lengths. Here from the March 1960 Supplement catalog in each photos description it says "State desired blade length." and "weight about..."
I ripped apart my display board and redid the entire history of the Bugaboo. I am amazed on how many variations there are and more that are still out there. I already know that there is even another set of Bugaboos dated sometime late 1970 not represented on this display. I am not sure how the machine dies cut the Bugaboos out of the metal plate. Is the carabiner hole punched out at the same time as the shape of the Bugaboo?
I ask this because the late 1970 set has the same shape as the 1971 new two hole Bugaboo set. The hammer end is redesigned and is more curved than the past Bugaboos. But the 1970 set only has one carabiner hole. Is the holes punched out of the Bugaboo after the shape is punched? If the holes are cut out at the same time as the shape then another set of dies were created having the 1971 shape but only having one carabiner hole. If the hole is punched after the shape then a bunch of the newer 1971 Bugaboos were first made with just one hole. Adding the second hole was a secondary thought. (No pun intended!) The July 1971 Chouinard catalog advertises the new two hole Bugaboo with smoother blade taper.
Also I correct myself in a previous comment. 1/4" Bugaboos were made for the year 1966 and 1972-73.
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Happy Idiot
Trad climber
Santa Fe
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OK, so I've got this old Chouinard-stamped thingymabob. I scrolled through this whole thread. And through some other of the Taco's vintage gear threads to try to figure it out. And I looked through storrick's rappel device site too.
But I'm still stumped as to what the heck this thing is called, or its actual function? I suspect just an uber-lightweight rappel device; it's too narrow to be a biner brake, though. What's the vintage?
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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The original ATC. Single strand flavour.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Chouinard Micro Belay Plate. Circa 1987-1989.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Might have a couple kickin' around...ha ha...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Somebody has been raiding the seconds bin...
Care to part with a couple of those?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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...or the North Face store in SLC closed its doors...
Sorry...don't have any seconds...(ha ha...just kiddin'...sure).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 10, 2018 - 09:44am PT
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Is there any noticeable variation in either configuration over the three year span that you mention?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 11, 2018 - 01:12pm PT
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Not that I've ever seen, but, I'm not sure. I don't have micro belay plates from each year. From the catalog photo's, they don't look different.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 12, 2018 - 07:40am PT
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In the picture below, the earlier SMC, square'd off version, on top of the copy A "Blk D" Chouinard, square 8? The 'square 8 has a tapper'd edge on the top (big) side. left to right Cmi, Chouinard sq8,Blue Chouinard,(very small hole thick stock) SMC's Squre 8, DMM Green thing
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 10:35am PT
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But seriously folks, yes it happened! The Chouinard Equipment portion of the Karabin Climbing Museum now resides at Patagonia Corporate in Ventura CA! “””Big CHEER””” I am totally psyched that my museum has a great home!!! Patagonia Archives Terri Laine and Val Franco made the magic happen. Master craftsman Alex Laine designed and built a totally sweet display case, which soon glass doors are being added to protect the display. Last weekend the puzzle pieces went together like it was meant to be! Once again big THANKS to the many donations by the many climbers that believe in the Karabin Climbing Museums’ mission to preserve climbing history. Props to God on this project! This is a big step for the museum for sure! Its not that fact that I am with Patagonia, it that Patagonia is with me. The next thing to see with this display is, if Yvon will now consider me “an above average” person (…chuckle!). Terri, Alex, Val…..lots of Love, great weekend!!!
Showing all of the updated display board photos on the first post of this thread. Chouinard Equipment Display edited up to 7/1/2018.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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WoWoot indeed !
all that shwag, gone to were it will live on!
And Marty . . .
LUV ya mhan! (but you have had a very negative effect on my climbing, I'm now given to watching E-Bay for things I ca not have()=;
I wish you could remember the winter when you & I met. It was a wet late December afternoon, my wife says in Flagstaff, I say in Tuscon? I think you signed my copy of your just out Queen Creek guide.... so when was that '91-93?
Thanx!
'91
yeah! there you go, I loved that guide, it was given very short shift in the rags, & I and others never were subscribers to those again, a loss all the way around.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 11:01am PT
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Gnome - I remember that day well....well actually...
the yellowish Queen Creek book came out November 1991
the bigger Queen Creek "Bible" came out fall 1996
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Super Cool! That display in its right and proper home. Next time by, will be sweet to stop in and see it.
Peace
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Big congrats Marty & many thanks to all involved with your project.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I have a vintage leather and plastic Chouinard hammer holster in very good, almost new condition. C. 1975.
Send me a mailing address at tom adze tomkasper dawt calm.
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Callum Steedman
Trad climber
Denver
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Jul 23, 2018 - 09:25am PT
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Hi, all! I was in the Holy Cross Wilderness at Lake Constantine over the weekend, and while out scrambling/soloing, I came across this beautiful piece of climbing history. I have determined that it comes from 1971 or later after looking through the photos of the Chouinard Equipment display, but I would love to track down the actual history of this piece if at all possible. I know it's a thick, long bugaboo with two holes, the C diamond, and the USA stamp below the C.
I was also recently gifted a few old cams from a friend (all my big wall gear was stolen last year). My guess on those is they were made around 1990 or so for the ones with the one-piece plastic stems, and totally unknown for the later models on the left in the photo.
I'm a climbing history nerd and would be psyched to have all the available info on these amazing relics. Thanks in advance! Happy sending!
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