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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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John Gill...I think there are way more factors than the just the feds raising interest rates.
Hope all is well?
The rich are investing in the rich, not in America.
If you look at the facts on the status of America in the world, it is really depressing. We are number one in arms/weapons sale. Yeah America.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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IMO, this statistic does not really capture the story. Some of the countries ahead of us are so small, that, if we fielded, say, California, or, even more to the point, the Silicon Valley, they would be ranked higher and still have a higher population base than some of those countries ahead of us.
The fact is, the well-educated elite in the U.S. are doing as well, probably better than they ever were. And this "elite" is actually a pretty big number by historical standards. Not to mention that we still siphon off the best and the brightest of so many of the other countries.
The plunging averages are based very much on the "average" - earning American. This is to be expected. A generation ago, just being born here meant that your chances of being among the wealthiest and most educated in the world was a given. The rest of the world is catching up, that's all.
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John M
climber
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But that's irrelevant to the politics of envy.
John
thanks Bob, for your reasoned response to the above statement. I hate being told I'm just envious when I expect more from the wealthy. Its some peoples go to argument/insult when they don't like looking at things.
JohnE, To whom much is given, much is required is a teaching out of the bible.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
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Greg wrote: The plunging averages are based very much on the "average" - earning American. This is to be expected. A generation ago, just being born here meant that your chances of being among the wealthiest and most educated in the world was a given. The rest of the world is catching up, that's all.
They have passed us and we have gone backwards. The numbers are there and they don't look good for America the nation.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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That is the point, we have pennies and they have millions. Who is going win??
We have the best government money can buy, so you know going to win. The tax code is so full of loop holes it is ludicrous.
“I know that I do not know whether or not my tax returns are accurate, which is a sad commentary on governance in our nation’s capital,”
“I do hope that at some point in my lifetime, and I am now in my 80s, so there are not many years left, the U.S. government will simplify the U.S. tax code so that those citizens who sincerely want to pay what they should, are able to do it right, and know that they have done it right.”
Donald Rumsfeld
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
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JohnM wrote: JohnE, To whom much is given, much is required is a teaching out of the bible.
They talk about it but don't walk it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The economist Thomas Piketty has observed that when the rate of return on capital is higher than the economy's growth rate capital income will rise faster than wages and salaries.
Actually, John, that's standard economic theory. That same standard economic theory predicts that when the supply of labor increases relative to the supply of capital, the relative return on capital will rise, and that of labor will fall. That is exactly what we observed
What no one wants to talk about is what happens in the reverse scenario. While we Republicans like to point out that the overall labor participation rate has fallen dramatically during Obama's presidency, I personally believe that the aging of the Baby Boomers was a significant contributor to that fall in the participation rate. As more of us retire, the supply of labor will drop. At the same time, as we start to liquidate our investments, we will make capital investments cheaper. This will result in a relative increase in the supply of capital, and decrease in the supply of labor, which will reverse the trend we saw in the last 45 years when the Boomers began to enter the labor market in significant numbers.
As for the general replies saying that it's all the fault of [choose one or more] []the rich; [] Reagan; [] Republicans; [] Christians [] them (whoever that may be) -- the absolute inability to supply a causative explanation makes those replies more appropriate for Jim's "Christian Nation" thread, since they merely express religious beliefs.
;-)
John
P. S. NO. one: Dr. F. Check the history of the Kennedy tax cuts. They were enacted to counteract a predicted recession and succeeded in doing so. The Reagan tax cuts coincided with closing loopholes (TEFRA was a particularly good example of this). the success of the Kennedy tax cuts led Michael Evans, in his brilliant but imperfect book on econometric modeling, Macroeconomic Activity, Theory Forecasting and Control to state that 1963 was the year when we "conquered the business cycle." Unfortunately, history showed the that Wharton/EFU model, as described in that book, was a few recessions off in specifying the exact relationship between exogenous variables and employment, interest rates, and inflation.
P.S. No. Two: JohnM wrote: JohnE, To whom much is given, much is required is a teaching out of the bible.
They talk about it but don't walk it.
I agree, Bob and John M. The implications for tax policy, however, aren't as clear, since a flat tax make the contribution proportional to income. More importantly, the wild oscillations of California's budget show the danger of a tax base so critically reliant on the capital gains of a few high-income taxpayers. The idea that it's all the fault of the rich, and only the rich should pay for government, leads to poor government and erroneous economics.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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#14.
Well done USA. Behind Poland. But at least we're ahead of the Czech Republic and Switzerland. Why should you expect a large, diverse, industrialized country, with a large immigrant poplation, like the USA, to have better educational performance than small, less diverse, and more insular, industrialized countries? Thats like comparing a large urban high school with a small suburban one.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
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JohnE...simple question, why can't Walmart pay a liveable wage to a majority of it employees??
"Walmart's average sale Associate makes $8.81 per hour, according to IBISWorld, an independent market research group. This translates to annual pay of $15,576, based upon Walmart's full-time status of 34 hours per week1."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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JohnE wrote: As for the general replies saying that it's all the fault of [choose one or more] []the rich; [] Reagan; [] Republicans; [] Christians [] them (whoever that may be) -- the absolute inability to supply a causative explanation makes those replies more appropriate for Jim's "Christian Nation" thread, since they merely express religious beliefs.
John..if you own the players, the refs, the bat, the ball and the playing field...who do you think is going to win???
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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At the age of 77 (Nancy is a decade younger) I see many young and middle age people without jobs, relying upon their parents and grandparents for financial support. One older friend of mine from time to time supports two families with parents in their 50s.
My wife and I are very fortunate to be on generous defined benefit retirement plans that will probably last until we pass, but perhaps not much longer than that. The collapse of defined benefit plans, replaced by defined contribution plans that include 401k accounts will certainly adversely affect many retirees in the future, although a few will be able to save enough to be comfortable. Of course, I come from an older generation that enjoyed career employment in some level of government or large business, etc., and I realize defined contribution plans, being portable, are more suited to those who move around in the labor market or are independent.
The collapse of unions in this country will drag many from the middle class down a significant notch and it is bizarre to observe the lower middle class strongly supporting the politics that espouses anti-union attitudes.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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JohnE...simple question, why can't Walmart pay a liveable wage to a majority of it employees??
Objection -- assumes facts not in evidence; vague and ambiguous.
Object to the form of the question.
What constitutes a "living wage," and why should Walmart pay it to a majority of its employees?
The idea that all jobs should pay a "living wage" is really the idea that the economy should eliminate all minimum wage jobs, but I doubt that most of the supporters of "living wage legislation" understand this. If we rasied the minimum wage to a "living wage," one of two things would happen. Either the rate of inflation would increase so that the buying power of the "living wage" is the same as the current minimum wage, or the current minimum wage jobs would disappear.
What would be the result of the disappearance of minimum wage jobs.? Let's start with the following:
1. A much higher unemployment rate for the youngest, least skilled, and least employable members of society;
2. Much greater difficulty obtaining work experience for those who cannot afford to be unpaid "interns;"
3. Much greater inefficiency, as jobs that now can be filled profitably would become illegal; and
4. Significantly higher prices.
Your question singles out Walmart only because the Walton family got rich with their method of selling things at the lowest possible price, so it makes a nice contrast between the rich owners and the low-paid workers, so you're trying to say that workers should be paid based on the profit of the business owner, rather than the productivity of the worker.
I realize that Gary and some others see no value in capital, but economists do. The result of a system that pays workers solely based on the profitability of the business would be to drive capital away from labor-intensive businesses, which would lead to a significant loss of jobs.
The fact remains that the left, with its new mantra of "inequality" to try to distract from the utter failure of its economic policies, proposes nothing that would increase the general welfare, but much that would reduce it. That's why I call it the politics of envy. Show me it isn't.
John
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
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John Gill wrote: The collapse of unions in this country will drag many from the middle class down a significant notch and it is bizarre to observe so many in the lower middle class supporting the politics that espouses anti-union attitudes.
Bingo...as the demise of the unions happened so has the wages.
John G, glad all is well? We are taking care of Laurel's mother, she lives with us and just think what the poverty level in America would be like without SS & medicare?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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He is of the opinion that what has occurred in the last century is an anomaly - wages growing faster than capital income - and that the reverse is the normal mode. Not good news!
JGill:
You are aware that Piketty is a Marxist, I hope? You are probably also aware that Marxist analysis has been more often wrong than right. It's real world outcomes has proven this time and time again.
Why doesn't Piketty contrast Communist economies with Capitalist ones? Why does he focus on only comparing capitalism at various stages in its own historical cycles?
The answer is that he is a Marxist intellectual/revolutionary who is intent on exploiting the moment in the vain hope that present conditions will lead to a sick reversion to totalitarian communism.
This is why I included the proverbial quote by Santayana in my post upthread.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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One of the graphs says you don't get paid by the government while on a 1 year maternity leave, is that true ?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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. . . and just think what the poverty level in America would be like without SS & medicare? (Bob)
God bless Medicare!
(We're fine, Bob. Say hello to Laurel!)
You are aware that Piketty is a Marxist (WT)
Yep. Just thought I'd throw in into the hopper!
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FredC
Boulder climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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I would like to join John G. in being amazed at the relatively poor republicans who don't seem to see that they are not voting in their own interest.
When I look at our place in the world I am saddened because growing up in the 60s and 70s we totally rocked. I think my whole generation believed we would continue as the shining light forever (or at least for our lifetimes).
It feels like there is immense inertia in our current setup, politically, economically, even more concentration of wealth at the top, etc.
Does anyone see how this will get better in the next 30 years?
Fred
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Did the American Enterprise Institute pay you to say that?
FM: uhhhhhh. You sound pretty up-to-speed for someone who most likely never heard of Piketty and just googled his name.
Not surprisingly Piketty is all the rage in the Obama White House and among baby boomer 60s economics professors who sit around faculty lounges all day.
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