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Messages 1 - 31 of total 31 in this topic |
Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Apr 12, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
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Yes, Kafkaesque, as they mention. And over and over again, our governors wonder why the hell we loathe and fear them, and won't trust their authorities.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
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Just to be clear, these are "debts" that emanate from SSA errors, not any misbehavior on the part of the folks whose kids are having their refunds seized.
Crosstalk: Nevada rancher.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 12, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
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There must be more to the story. At least in California there's generally a one yr. statute of limitations when a person dies. I suspect that some of the debts discussed in the poorly cited article are for payments made after a person died that were received when the heirs failedmto notify the SSA that the person had died.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 12, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
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Don't over-pay your taxes.
Fix your withholding so you owe at the end of the year, and The Feds won't have your refund to hold hostage.
And you also won't be floating the world's biggest debtor a year-long interest-free loan.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 13, 2014 - 12:00am PT
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^^^
And then, make sure you've paid 90% of your taxes and file for a 6 month extension. No penalty or interest.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2014 - 11:33am PT
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From the article linked to above:
The farm bill that passed in 2011 lifted the 10-year statute of limitations on debts owed to the feds. Treasury has collected more than $400 million since then on very old obligations, many of them below the radar of public scrutiny because the amounts are often small enough, i.e. a few hundred dollars, that the targets find it’s cheaper to pay up than to fight.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 13, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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^^^^^^
That's a Bill of Attainder, or Ex Post facto law, and is invalidated by the Constitution.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 13, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
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Well, it all seems a lot of 'hotair' for which reason I'm not gonna bother
to read it. I also don't don't need any more reasons to distrust 'my' guvmint.
As mentioned I suspect there is more to the story that the 'hotair' is allowing.
That said I employ an expensive CPA - it is cheaper in the long run.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Bills of Attander - that argument isn't going to prevent anything.
Across the nation, hundreds of thousands of taxpayers who are expecting refunds this month are instead getting letters like the one Grice got, informing them that because of a debt they never knew about — often a debt incurred by their parents — the government has confiscated their check.
The Treasury Department has intercepted $1.9 billion in tax refunds already this year — $75 million of that on debts delinquent for more than 10 years, said Jeffrey Schramek, assistant commissioner of the department’s debt management service. The aggressive effort to collect old debts started three years ago — the result of a single sentence tucked into the farm bill lifting the 10-year statute of limitations on old debts to Uncle Sam.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/social-security-treasury-target-hundreds-of-thousands-of-taxpayers-for-parents-old-debts/2014/04/10/74ac8eae-bf4d-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html
Reilly: Either that or don't have any parents.
Some five years ago the IRS sent a refund check to someone I know, but to the wrong address (i.e. not the one on the tax return). The person still hasn't received the money despite phone calls, "tracers" and letters. No evidence that the person ever received or cashed the check.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 13, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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Well. Z, ya can't pick yer relatives; I just got lucky. A pox on the IRS.
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John M
climber
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Apr 13, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
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this is an abomination..
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 13, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
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It won't stand the test of time, such a practice is unconstitutional unless the other person is a co-signer on he debt.
Fix your withholding so you owe at the end of the year, and The Feds won't have your refund to hold hostage.
Easier said than done. Even with a massive spreadsheet to help me estimate my taxes, the tax laws are so complicated that, at best, I can estimate my taxes bill to within plus or minus $5,000. And if I underpay by $5,000 then I get hit with a big underpayment penalty on April 15th. So I am forced to err on the side of overpayment of estimated taxes.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 13, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
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Ex Post facto law
Sex offender registry laws also apply to those who had served their time, paid their dues, and were living their lives crime free when the laws were established. Supreme Court said that's okay. There are exceptions.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 13, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
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In the bible (omg am I able to mention this book :)it says sins of the fathers being visited down to the children....but in the bible mercy is offered, doubt the IRS has this word in their vocabulary. jess sayin'....
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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that's typical, reilly, judge without reading...hotair is a conservative blog; that is, they offer conservative commentary on the day's news...they also cite their sources (of course, i understand, sources and facts are meaningless to libs), but the original story appeared in wapo--insert vast-right-wing-conspiracy-comment-here--you'd also see the target is african american, which, by lib definition, makes the ssa racist! except barry is president, thus, criticizing the ssa is racist!
i'll make it easy for you reilly:
"Now, Social Security claims it overpaid someone in the Grice family — it’s not sure who — in 1977."
they're not sure WHOM, but they're sure they overpaid?
"No one seems eager to take credit for reopening all these long-closed cases. A Social Security spokeswoman says the agency didn’t seek the change; ask Treasury. Treasury says it wasn’t us; try Congress. Congressional staffers say the request probably came from the bureaucracy."
why not? if they're following the law and protecting current ssa recipients?
"Social Security officials told her they had sent their notice to her post office box in Roxboro, N.C. Grice rented that box from 1977 to 1979 and never since. And Social Security has Grice’s current address: Every year, it sends her a statement about her benefits."
government efficiency at its best!
"Treasury officials say that before they will take someone’s refund, the agency owed the money must certify the debt, meaning there must be evidence of the overpayment. But Social Security officials told Grice they had no records explaining the debt."
"Grice was also told there was little point in seeking a waiver of her debt. Collections can only be halted if the person passes two tests, Clark said: The taxpayer must prove that he “is without fault, and [that] repayment of the overpayment would deprive the person of income needed for ordinary living expenses.”
that's right, the irs can penalize you BEFORE they prove you're guilty...and, now, they're going to have that power over your health care choices
so, how do libs propose to solve these issues?
MORE GOVERNMENT!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 14, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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Eliminating the discharge of student loans in bankruptcy has been held NOT to to be ex post facto when applied to loans that existed before the change.
I suspect Congress will be revisiting this statute of limitations change soon, a lot of consumer groups are gearing up to lobby the issue. Fortunately Treasury is the only entity with money at stake, no corporations.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 14, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
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So I am forced to err on the side of overpayment of estimated taxes.
Our Motto in the BSA was "Be prepared."
Lynne, quoting from the bible is one of the mainstays of politics no more. It was useful in the times before television, anyway.
The Book of Donini has something to add here (sadly, another book which is no longer useful to the political flack--too "apochryphal"):
"Gov't will go anywhere, anytime, and efficiently." :0)
At least the YOSAR has it together, and that's real.
Is there a statute of limitations on changing statutes of limitations? I'm sure there must be, eh?
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Apr 14, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
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The government giveth and the government taketh away
Best to be honest and not take free money that doesn't belong to you
I feel bad for the kids but those are SS benefits I'd like to receive someday so I say go get em
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John M
climber
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Apr 14, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
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so, how do libs propose to solve these issues?
MORE GOVERNMENT!
Nope.. you have not ever understood what liberals want. Perhaps thats because you are so stuck in your bias that you just can't hear. I will try one last time.
I do not want more government. I want my government to do a good job. To be as wise as it can be. Like anything, including private corporations, it can become unwieldy and it can do unwise things. But there are plenty of things that I would prefer are run by the government, rather then private corporations. The fire department is a good example.
Your problem is the you have spent so much energy demonizing government, that you can't see anything that they could do well or at least do better then private industry.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 14, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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Lynnie--
The word "mercy" has been expunged from the dictionary used by the IRS!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 14, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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Most of you don't not have any personal knowledge of the facts surrounding this case, yet you seem all too willing to let a poorly documented article provided a basis for all your every gripe about the the evil, heartless federal government.
John M raised a good point. These are benefit that, if not paid to the person not entitled to them, would be available to pay someone else. People should have some responsibility to know whether all the free money coming in the mail is actually there's to keep. If the government started sending me checks, I'd certainly try to figure out whether they're mine before I started cashing them.
As for the one alleged victim (and let's face it, there's only one person mentioned in the article--there aren't any claims that this is happening on a wide scale), they've hired a lawyer. Let him deal with it. If someone came to me with this issue (and I handle probate, so I'm a likely candidate), I'd say 'fine, let me prove that the person received the benefits, that they actually had an estate when they passed away; that the government didn't get notice of the decedent's death but failed to do anything in a timely manner, and that my client actually received any portion of that estate'. Sounds like far more work that the government would be willing to perform for a $10,000 creditor's claim.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 14, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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So the SSA can 'sin'? Interesting, I'll have to run that by the Pope when
I see him in a few weeks.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 14, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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http://www.npr.org/2014/04/12/302166487/irs-chases-children-for-debts-of-their-dead-parents
The IRS is going after taxpayers to pay their deceased parents' decades-old debts. NPR's Scott Simon talks with Marc Fisher of The Washington Post about the collection efforts.
Copyright © 2014 NPR. For personal, noncommercial use only. See Terms of Use. For other uses, prior permission required.
SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Scott Simon. Many people expect some kind of tax refund this year. But not so fast. The government's going after old debts incurred by taxpayers' parents that taxpayers usually know nothing about and have little recourse to challenge. The debts are owed to may federal agencies, but the Social Security Administration has found 400,000 taxpayers who collectively owe more than $700 million on Social Security overpayments to family members. Marc Fisher of The Washington Post has been reporting this story, and he joins us now. Marc, thanks so much for being with us.
MARC FISHER: Good to be with you.
SIMON: I thought dying was the one way you might be able to get out of debts.
FISHER: Well, and if you believe the federal government or other arms of the federal government, children are not supposed to be held accountable for their parents' debts. But the Social Security Administration and the Treasury have found a way around that thanks to a one-line change they made in the 2008 Farm Bill.
SIMON: And that line is? I suspect it has nothing to do with wheat or barley, yeah?
FISHER: Nothing at all. Basically, what it said is the government, which previously had not been allowed to go out and collect debts that were more than 10 years old, now can go back as far as they'd like - decades back. And in the last couple of years, they've been aggressively doing that to the tune of many hundreds of millions of dollars.
SIMON: And you've talked to several people who've been hit by this, right?
FISHER: I have. And what happens is they don't even know what's going on. All they know is they don't get their tax refund that they were expecting. So some folks who were very energetic this year and had already filed their taxes and were expecting to get their returns, instead they get a letter saying, you're not getting your tax refund because your parent or someone in your family once got an overpayment from the Social Security Administration. In a couple of cases - particularly a woman in Takoma Park, MD - she was 4 years old when her father died.
Her mother got survivors benefits from the Social Security Administration. And then when this woman, Mary Grice, became of age, her family stopped getting survivors benefits, and she thought that was the end of it. Thirty-seven years later, it turns out Social Security claims that they paid a little bit too much to the family, and now since her mother has died, they've come after Mary.
SIMON: How does the government even know that they might have overpaid?
FISHER: Well, they have records going back that say, you know, you were eligible for X amount per month. And then maybe somebody in the family went back to work and got more in the way of earnings than they would have had to be eligible for those benefits. And so there was this debt sitting there on the account over all these years. But in many of these cases, the government can't even say who exactly incurred the debt. It might have been a surviving spouse. It might have been surviving children. All they know is that the debt is on the books. And apparently their regulations allow them to go after almost anyone in the surviving family without regard to whether they were the ones who got the benefits in the first place.
SIMON: And they have no recourse?
FISHER: Well, there's an appeals process, and you can seek a waiver. The folks I've spoken to, for the most part, when they call or visit Social Security, they're told, yeah, you can go through the waiver process, but you're not likely to win. The Social Security Administration tells me that about 10 percent do win their case, but that's 90 percent who don't. And of that 90 percent, some of them, it's just, you know, a few hundred dollars maybe, and they figure it's not worth the battle. In other cases, it's some thousands of dollars, and they really need the money. But very few lawyers will touch these cases because they are relatively small amounts of money involved.
SIMON: So this is all being done because the government's in debt?
FISHER: Well, that was sort of the impetus for all of this. They have brought in a lot of revenue. And the government, anticipating that some people would say, hey, it can't be worth your time and effort to go after these small, old debts. The process of going after them's going to cost you more than you bring in. So they've done an analysis that actually shows that they are bringing in more money than it costs to go make the collections. So to that end, they say that they're saving the taxpayers money.
When I asked the Social Security folks who came up with this idea to go after these old debts, they said, well, go talk to Treasury. I went to Treasury. They said, well, go talk to Congress. I went to Congress. They said, oh, it had to be somebody back in Treasury or somewhere in the bureaucracy. So no one is willing to step up and take credit for this. And now that this story has appeared, there's kind of a circling the wagons and it's not - no one wants to be associated with this at this point.
SIMON: Marc Fisher, who's senior editor at The Washington Post. Thanks so much for being with us.
FISHER: Thanks, Scott.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 15, 2014 - 07:42am PT
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It won't stand the test of time, such a practice is unconstitutional unless the other person is a co-signer on he debt.
The Federal Trade Commission, on its Web site, advises Americans that “family members typically are not obligated to pay the debts of a deceased relative from their own assets.”
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 15, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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It won't stand the test of time, such a practice is unconstitutional unless the other person is a co-signer on he debt.
The Federal Trade Commission, on its Web site, advises Americans that “family members typically are not obligated to pay the debts of a deceased relative from their own assets.”
The point is,
They did it anyway.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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Harry Said: " Even with a massive spreadsheet to help me estimate my taxes, the tax laws are so complicated that, at best, I can estimate my taxes bill to within plus or minus $5,000. And if I underpay by $5,000 then I get hit with a big underpayment penalty on April 15th. So I am forced to err on the side of overpayment of estimated taxes."
Our tax laws are a horror show. No spreadsheet here, 2 accountants...they are still working and will keep at it long after Apri 15th. As far as "pay 90% and extend for 6 months", hah, I wish, but that just ain't possible Rodger. I don't have love for the "flat tax" either. I'd feel better about hearing of a flat tax that keeps getting bandied about if the estate taxes were back to where they were.
I'd like to see the government spend slightly less than what they take in, and not indebt us all 40% more than they are bringing in...to be paid at a later date.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 15, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
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The point is,
They did it anyway.
That's why I say, kill the bastards
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 15, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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A+ for pro-active guvmint. How else they gonna pay for Obamacare and
keep the fleet in the Black Sea?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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More logs on the fire.
I hate to see the flames die out so easily.
There's a lot of blame going around and everyone catches some, it seems.
Meanwhile, I am still having to pay fifty a month back child support, mostly interest, and it's not contestable because of certain unfair laws. Again, the government is not concerned with my welfare, only its right to say what's fair.
And so, I am forced to say Bite me!
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/10/25/foxs-brit-hume-democratic-partys-governing-mode/190921
It's not the party's model that's busted, it's the government, pure and simple, no matter who is running it, you can't get a fair shake. Justice is not part of their game plan.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-04-22/news/bs-ed-reimer-social-security-20130422_1_boomers-three-workers-the-pill
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