Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
|
Mike raises an important point that can be overlooked in the ethics drama (as does Greg). I suppose the issue is one of perception. A convenience anchor placed to protect the surrounding flora may have less overall impact and is a good thing. However, one issue I see with their use is 1) often they are placed primarily for convenience, not out of any consideration for the surrounding terrain (I think of the chains atop Poodles or Exorcist), and 2) people from a gym or sport environment see them (not knowing any other reason for their placement) and then expect to see them at the top of many more climbs as a normal climbing practice.
If, as climbers, our goal is to permanently damage the rock as little as possible, then convenience anchors (when used solely for that purpose) I believe are inappropriate. Arguably, a community standard should apply, though even that doesn't seem to hold much weight with the new norm of sport climbers coming to a trad area, expecting compliance with their expectations and, if they aren't met, respond with personal attacks on "old" or "crusty" climbers. BTW, ad hominem arguments flung at Ron are not an intelligent response to the issue either.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
|
rope pulls (and landing on vegetation) should be a factor in the analysis of a rap station to avoid walk off damage, but otherwise see rap stations as often benefitting the environment.
In particular, with regard to rappelling off of trees.
With no fixed anchors, rapping tree to tree, rubbing the bark would become more common.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
|
With no fixed anchors, rapping tree to tree, rubbing the bark would become more common.
BITD we rappelled off trees and horns leaving 100 useless slings, are you saying you sport climbin wankers want to have bolted convenience stations?! San Francisco hippie gym climbin tree huggin brats! We were so much better than you!!! WAAAHHH!!! How about you bolt that sack where it belongs so you don’t leave it on the ground every time you head up! WANKERS!
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
|
This could get interesting.
What about the best bolted crack in the USA.
Somebody get ken Nichols on here.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
|
Yeah get Ken....the guy that uses Wilt Chamberlain math when adding up his climbs.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
|
Chance of not snowing in the near future. Time to suac
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
|
I would pay you to make a crack at Ocean beach in SF. There is lots of crap rock here and some overhangs. I want to have a thin hands thru a roof and fingers thru a bulge! Where do I order?
Call the guy who the Access Fund bought Handley Rock (Redwood City) from. I believe he used a skill saw to make his cracks.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
|
Is that the Disney Matterhorn or something?
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
|
WML
climber
Edge of the Electric Ocean Beneath Red Rock
Mar 25, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Placing any permanent anchors in rock in public lands be them USFS or BLM, IS an illegal act to begin with and is only tolerated by the powers of any area. It will be EASY for that tide to change..
You could not be any more incorrect in that respect. The placement of fixed anchors, even with motorized drills, is perfectly legal in many BLM and USFS jurisdictions so long as it is not in a Wilderness Area. Within Wilderness Areas managed by these entities, obviously no power drills are allowed, and certain Wilderness Areas (Rainbow Mountain and La Madre Wilderness immediately come to mind looking out my window) allow no new bolting but that will be changing very soon here.
WML, I would encourage you to brush up on the Code of Federal Regulations. I have no idea the regulation number, but it is indeed illegal for individuals to go onto public lands and alter vegetation, leave installations, etc. We (as climbers) have gotten away with bolting, trundling, trail building, cutting down trees, etc. for a long time. If the Federal land managers decided to crack down on many forms of climbing they have the law on their side.
|
|
John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
|
wow, a Federal crime. Are there any youtube videos of these perps bolting the cracks up?
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
|
JD:
The purpose of my post was to point out that it is indeed a Federal crime to be altering natural features on public lands. This could be interpreted to include leaving bolts on a cliff, building a trail to the base of a crag, cutting down trees at a crag, etc... If you are interested in videos, blogs, notes, etc, on these criminal acts, take a cruise over to the Mountain Project website where there is plenty of evidence of climbers committing illegal activities on our public lands.
I woud urge climbers to use caution when advertising criminal activities on public lands. The more we as a community wave a middle finger at the authorities, it would seem more likely they will cut us out of the activity in which we all love. If you need evidence of the land managers taking a negative eye towards climbers, dig up the recent post about Christmas Tree Pass where the National Park Service is actively pursuing bolt removal.
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
|
I will simply state that the Fed Regulations do not apply to placing of fixed anchors. And, unlike the pundits spouting misinformation here (what else is new), I have actually litigated this very issue in Federal Court.
Issuing a citation from a code book vs. understanding the law and its application are two entirely different matters.
More pertinently, and as someone very wisely stated up-thread, bolting and the appropriateness of where and when to place a bolt is best left to the climbing community to work through -- not always a short term endeavor. Accomplishing anything substantial requires patience, understanding and collaboration -- those without these qualities can cause substantial harm.
A few good days at the crags having fun is perhaps the best cure for a curmudgeon-like attitude.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
|
the bolt bans already in place in many areas and those that are about to come.
Ron are you really serious about following through?
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
|
looking sketchy there... Thank you for arguing this case for climbers in Federal court.
If you were implying my post was spraying misinformation then I apologize.
As I understand the regulations, leaving features on rock formations (i.e. bolts on cliffs) and building trails on public lands is prohibited. Please enlighten me? Is it ok for me to take my chainsaw out to some choss heap, build a trail to it, trundle thousands of pounds of rock, and leave hundreds of bolts / chains / etc?
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
|
WML finally feeling his oats!!!
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
|
Ron. While you say you were a LEO and enforced these laws, you also bolted cliffs and admitted to manufacturing routes by drilling pockets. No bueno. And I accept that everyone has regrets about things they've done in the past.
But c'mon dude.
Also, if your friend Dano, RIP, were still with us and, say, Cave Rock were just being discovered, I can almost guarantee you there would be permadraws there.
Jus sayin.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
|
Climbing ethics are a popular topic here because everyone has an opinion.....talk about actual climbing and the forum becomes mute.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
|
i completely agree with ron:
"bolting cracks and chain draws
on routes is nothing more
than excess garbage on the mountain."
well put, ron.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
|
So back to the Code of Federal Regulations:
As I understand it from those of you on the Anti-Access Fund league (I'm talking to you Jebus):
Is it ok for me to take my chainsaw and brush hog on to Federal lands, bulldoze a trail, saw down trees, trundle thousands of pounds of rock, place hundreds of bolts, spray about it all over MP, maybe write an article for Rock and Ice?
Let me know because I am desperate to make a name for myself.
Signed,
Albert Newman
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
|
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!