Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2016 - 11:50pm PT
|
Hahah, just read the abstract of that paper... last sentence:
Side effects, detected by questionnaire, were limited to vesicular and urticarial rashes and pruritus ani in 18 of 21 test subjects.
From our friend Wikipedia:
"Pruritus ani (also known as anusitis) is the irritation of the skin at the exit of the rectum"
Only affected 18 out of 21 though. no big deal.
|
|
Ben Emery
Trad climber
Back and forth the Pacific
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2016 - 06:41am PT
|
^^^^
No gain without a little, er, pain, I suppose....
|
|
roy
Social climber
NZ -> SB,CA -> Zurich
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
|
For all those who say poison oak is no big deal - I was once in that camp. I would hold back branches with bare arms so my sensitive climbing partners could get to the base of the climbs. For many years. Then one time, ostensibly no different from the others, ...
It was a full blown, eyes swollen shut, experience. Requiring a month of steriod treatment to get over. Luckily the steriods worked fast, but the other 3 1/2 weeks of tapering them down had some interesting pyschoactive effects.
Natural immunity is only good until the body says "Oh sh#t - what is this stuff?"
But every winter my spouse goes through a program of doctor monitored desensitization (to other allergens) and it makes a difference.
Cheers, Roy
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 11:30pm PT
|
Update: Apparently the effect wears off if you don't eat any for a few years. I went cave hunting last Friday and have rashes on both legs. I got so used to not reacting that I forgot to eat it and didn't worry about avoiding it.
I should note that I swam through the stuff for about 100 feet and my reaction is still better than it used to be when I would just look at the stuff.
Time to start eating it again!
On the bright side, we discovered another cave to add to the park database! Worth it!
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
Jewel Weed aka Spotted-Touch-Me-Not completely neutralizes it, before, during, and after ... rub the stems and leaves on your skin, or have a bucket of water by the back door with some in it ... in winter take the water from the bucket and freeze into ice cubes kept in your freezer ..
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
|
|
My god the only thing I am SO happy about when I clicked on this thread is you had the foresight to block out the plumber's crack on your opening photo. Limp I would have never been able to see you any other way after that even still I may have a hard time with it.
Actually an interesting idea that might work with some allergies. My daughter seemed to get over an allergy to pineapple by eating little bits and pieces and gradually increasing till she had no more reactions. Who knows?
Arne
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there say, all... fun to see this, :)
|
|
bchains
Trad climber
Bay Area, CA
|
|
Sounds like some goofy Dr. Oz bullsh#t, and peer-reviewed (ie: not internet mumbo jumbo) studies in legit medical journals say no dice:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/548159?redirect=true
(of course this could all be a conspiracy mannnnnn - drug companies want you to be itchy so they can sell you bogus mind control creams)
What's the idea here --- that your body is developing antigens against urushiol which is an organic compound almost definitely speedily metabolized or reacted with in your stomach into nothing by the various acids, amylases, enzymes, etc??
Utushiol triggers an allergic contact dermatitis in skin by binding to protein carrier molecules forming a hapten. That ain't happening in your stomach.
Peanut, bee sting, pollen, dust, etc allergies are caused by proteins, and allergen desensitization therapy is done by injecting minuscule amounts into the skin to expose the immune system to them over time in gradually increasing concentrations.
The true test will be to rub PO/PI/PS leaves all over your junk and see if anything happens. Please post pics as proof.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
|
|
Please post pics as proof._
Uh, maybe not..........
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
|
|
Maybe even uses fire as a strategy to take over? Like Lodgepole pine?
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
Toxicodendron aka poisin oak is a diverse genus of plants that contains both toxic and non toxic varieties. In ways it is like marijuana. Some strains are more powerful than others and some do nothing. Yet the vegitative forms of all of them look very similar. Thus people may think they are not allergic to poisin oak because they have been exposed to its non toxic varieties. Similarly, some may think its okay to eat a leaf because they ate a non toxic or attenuated strain. Some people may have different immune reactions to it because the DNA splicing that creates our millions of different B-cell types results in the greatest genetic diversity observed in nature. Thus we observe a wide range of reactions from mild irritation to anaphylactic shock and sudden death. I used to have an employee who could bust through poisin oak with a chainsaw and not get rash in places other people did. Some people who eat leaves die. People die from the smoke or eating food cooked over fire that contains it. A friend of mine tried eating half a leaf of it. His anus swelled into a prolapsing softball for four days.
Also complicating things is that poisin oak that is toxic goes through annual and semi annual phases during which its toxicity changes. A bush that gave no allergy in one season may cause allergy in another. Poisin oak is like a scab that grows where the land has been damaged, sometimes by nature, sometimes by man. That is a good sign that it should be left alone. It is known that wounding a plant causes it to release chemical messengers to nearby plants to be on the defensive. This has been shown in science by measurement of salicylate levels increasing in plants that are near but not in contact with plants that are wounded. Because wounding spreads bacterial disease, plants produce methyl salicylate in response to wounding or the signal that nearby plants are wounded. Yes its like Pandora (Avatar😄.)
So the plants talk to each other... Lesson learned: Native American teachings from the Wisdom Fire, "dont step on the plant peoples heads!" Yes plants are people. If one damages plants while walking near poisin oak, it may react by secreting more toxin. That is why poisin oak is more toxic along trails where vegitation is disturbed. Meanwhile, in the wild places it may not be as nasty. This is not always true since natural forces such as deer and erosion disturb it. I find that people who crush and damage vegitation get the rash. The plant definitely causes worse rash when damaged and if you get scratched by the stems. Ive seen some bad cases where it scratched people in winter when the leaves were absent. The old wives tale that Indians dont get poisin oak has a kernel of truth. But it is not genetic. Plenty of natives get the rash. But traditional native people usually dont because they "walk in beauty." That is to say they dont trample the vegitation and walk rock to rock, avoiding even stepping in and smushing soft dirt.
My personal defense against poisin oak is pre exposure application of mugwort (Artemesia vulgaris) which almost always grows where toxicodendron does. The best cure after exposure is, believe it or not, to wash the oil off with white gas. But do not spread the oil or that can make it worse. In any case, there are many factors that contribute to poisin oaks mysteries. It is an unpredictable and poorly understood genus. Not all of Mother Nature is for us to contact with directly. That poisin oak is protecting something. So the best advice I can give is dont eat it and dont step on the plant peoples heads!
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2018 - 12:36pm PT
|
What's the idea here --- that your body is developing antigens against urushiol which is an organic compound almost definitely speedily metabolized or reacted with in your stomach into nothing by the various acids, amylases, enzymes, etc??
Utushiol triggers an allergic contact dermatitis in skin by binding to protein carrier molecules forming a hapten. That ain't happening in your stomach. My thinking is just like yours, bchains, I don't understand the physiology of it. Considering urushiol is an oil it probably remains intact through the stomach since fat digestion is mostly done in the intestines. I just assigned research papers to my physiology classes and encouraged some students to look into hyposensitization to allergies via the oral route. Maybe if they spend the time they'll find something. Placebo or not, it worked!
Toxicodendron aka poisin oak is a diverse genus... The only (naturally occurring) Toxicodendron species in the Southern Sierra is diversilobum so when anyone sees it around here they're seeing poison oak. I didn't know there were studies about poison oak communication but it wouldn't surprise me since it's been seen in many other species. Plants are cool!
Question it all you want everyone, I went from EXTREMELY sensitive to nothing, and I had contact with it many, many times with no reaction until last Friday.
I shall eat it and become invincible again!!!!!
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
The species that are listed in the Sierra are those that are "known." Other plants that look like poisin oak may be classified differently. As I said before, like Marijuana which only comes in three species, C.sativa, C. indica and C. ruderalis, Toxicodendron comes in varieties that range in potency. My statements are mostly based on personal observation and anecdotal evidence. We simply havent unlocked all the botanical mysteries which science has yet to uncover. As for plant to plant studies of salicylate and inter plant commucation, these are known primarily among crops and indicator species used in plant pathology. I am not aware of studies pertaining to toxicodendron but the empirical evidence seems to suggest that it follows the pattern of interplant communication obseved elsewhere. There has been some military research into the weaponization of poisin oak. I added some edits to my last post if you are interested and thanks for your replies😎
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
It returns surprisingly fast in chaparral country, first shoots up sometimes. Remarkably resiliant fire adapted plant.
PI, here too in the NE... An entire big(by CT standards) mountaintop burned clear to the rocks about 20 years ago. First thing back was poison ivy which now blankets the summit in juicy thick vines...
|
|
Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
|
|
Sometimes I'm allergic to poison oak and break out, especially if I touch the oak around the base of apple tree in my backyard in direct sunlight. Sometimes I seem to be totally immune out cleaning climbs and pulling down trellis arbors full of it. Why the big variation in sensitivity? Could it be like all allergies in general where emotions and programming play a significant role as to whether you react or no?
This stuff is mysterious. I know a guy who's terribly allergic to oak and all he has to do is look at it and he breaks out. He's terrified of even seeing it around. Does fear play a big role triggering the response? Lots of unconscious processes we don't understand fully yet.
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
Its Mother Nature's scab.
|
|
TLP
climber
|
|
The idea that the urushiol in PO (and other species) is a defense "toxin" doesn't pass the sniff test. Notable herbivores, like goats, are not sensitive to it at all. In fact they love it. I helped build a goat pen once, and the very first day the goats ate every bit of PI they could get at, before they ate any other plant. Some defense. However, the suggestion that individual plants vary in urushiol content, and may vary seasonally or annually, is totally possible.
It's hugely unlikely that urushiol in North American Toxicodendron species has anything in the slightest to do with human beings. We're new arrivals, and it is not. Unless there were some huge selective pressure on innocuous Toxicodendrons (or ancestors), there's no reason for the whole pathway to produce this compound would evolve, in the very limited time that there have been lots of people around. The first arrivals in California surely started setting and propagating fires all over the place, and as others have pointed out above, PO does really well in burned areas.
PO allergy is just one of those unhappy coincidences. It's my understanding that the allergy can come and go, whether or not you eat little bits. (People who are not sensitive go for years without needing to avoid the plant, then one unhappy day that they just thrash through it...) But I don't know. I avoid it.
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
|
Sounds like some goofy Dr. Oz bullsh#t, and peer-reviewed (ie: not internet mumbo jumbo) studies in legit medical journals say no dice:
I'm bored and my students are taking a test so I followed up on your article. I cam across quite a few articles that show successful hyposensitization, but they used different derivatives or even actual urushiol, along with various feeding schedules, and found significant improvement. No studies that I've seen found improvement in 100% of the subjects so that helps explain the contradictory anecdotal reports.
Chainsaw,
I read up on urushiol chemistry and there are indeed variations in the structure of it from species to species, region to region and sometimes plant to plant. The machanism is the same, but chemical variations can effect the severity of reaction. Cool stuff!
Some next level posion oak beta going on here. Lol, ya, getting kinda ridiculous. And I love it!
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
Upthread I mentioned my particular application of the magic chemical for libidinous purposes. As I've aged, that member has become immune to the desired reaction, although, as it become useless now for the desired purpose anyway, its failure to, shall we say, react, is the least of my present worries.
My once tight and well-controlled back door has grown increasingly flaccid with the passage of years, and with the specter of adult diapers looming, another use-case for the magic chemical and its attendant swelling occurred to me. I immediately put it into practice, and the results were all that one could hope!
The swelling is satisfyingly splendid, thereby taking the place of youthful compression. The one unfortunate side-effect is what could be called "ring sting," and from the rear I bear a striking resemblance to a baboon in heat, but that's a small price to pay for regaining control over my... uhh... destiny.
I know that, as with the aforementioned member, immunity is on its way. But I expect that while swelling provides temporary control, I can put aside the king's ransom that will soon be needed to purchase Depends by the case.
Until that day, urushiol has got my back.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
First prize to mb1.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!