Discussion Topic |
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 20, 2014 - 01:09am PT
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Disclaimer, don't do what I do. If you do you will probably die and it will be your fault
I've been severely allergic to poison oak ever since my first small rash when I was ten. I've had to go to the hospital four times for it. The most recent was from wearing a backpack that I touched with gloves that had poison oak on them.
After that I got desperate and started doing research. It turns out many native americans were not allergic to PO, while the ones that were would make tea from the roots or eat small leaves in the spring to get resistant. Against my wife's wishes I started eating one leaf per week a year ago and quickly noticed an effect.
I used to break out all over and it would last a minimum of two weeks. After a few doses I started only getting little rashes and they would be gone in 4 or 5 days. The last time I got it was a quarter sized spot on my hand at Balchfest. If you were there you would appreciate that that's nothing compared to what a severely allergic person would have expected on that "trail."
I started eating it again a few weeks ago and this past weekend on a hike I kicked a few PO leaves/limbs with my ankles as an experiment.
IT'S BEEN FOUR DAYS AND THERE'S NOTHING!!!
I roll small pieces in bread, wet it, then compress it into a pill so I have no contact with the oil. One of the first times, I ate a large leaf and got a rash at the "exit," so start small.
This is one of the greatest moments of my life. Caving, climbing, fishing, hiking and canyoneering will never be the same!
Disclaimer again. This is a story about myself, not advice. YUR GONNA DIE
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:13am PT
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Do you buy those leaves at one of those 'clinics'?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:14am PT
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If one leaf was good wouldn't a salad work better. Maybe put some ranch on it.
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Raafie
Big Wall climber
Portland, OR
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:15am PT
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Man. . . I'm no doctor, but that seems totally sketchy.
As great as it would be to have immunity, no way!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:19am PT
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Ranch is like lotion. It will be ok.
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Edge
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:24am PT
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So how many slices of bread do you think it will take to cover a pair of handcuffs?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:26am PT
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I used to be allergic to cactii and learned the indians ate peyote.
I started eating peyote, but now I can't remember if it was poison ivy or poison oak
that I was also allergic to.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:45am PT
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When I lived in Cali and used to romp around in the Santa Cruz Mountains PO was a fact of life. I would react fairly normally and two weeks was not uncommon. I did notice that an immunity could be built up fairly easily. I did it by just rubbing it on small patches and prevent spreading. Over a season one could almost be immune. I lost my immunity once after not being exposed for several years. Now that I live in Seattle for the last 20 years, I bet I would get it again.
I heard similar stuff about the natives. You are still brave.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:49am PT
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Yur still gonna die
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:55am PT
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I am reminded of a line from Seinfeld. When asked about his hatred of broccoli, Newman replied, "It's a vile weed!"
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:00am PT
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Ranch is like lotion. It will be ok.
Lmfao
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:12am PT
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i once ate marijuana leaves to make myself immune, but it didn't work. Oh well.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:16am PT
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That was an amazingly brave experiment. Some might say foolish, some might say crazy, I say "inspired"!
I was told that eating Bay area goat yogurt would give you a immunity, because they eat a lot of poison oak. I did eat a lot of goat yogurt at one time but I would never have put that theory to the test.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 03:19am PT
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I believe you, but I'm going to want a double-blind study published in the Lancet before I try that method. That just sounds like the quickest way to have a horrific systemic reaction. Either that or smoking it. I'll pass for now.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 03:29am PT
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It is not really that far of a stretch. I have been using Nettles a lot recently. I already eat them but I have been using the stinging qualities to relieve pain and inflammation in arthritic and gouty joints and have had very positive results.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 04:03am PT
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If there was ever a thread designed for the response "yer gunna die" this is it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 20, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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Waste of time , unless you have goat DNA.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 20, 2014 - 08:54am PT
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After seeing this tip in a Euell Gibbons book (I think) I tried it. I've done this many times since the first time. I would take a small young leaf in the spring, roll it up tight with my fingers, and swallow it with water: trying not to chew. There was no reaction to eating it. I still would get it during the year, but there seemed to be some slight immunity that wasn't there previously. (**cough*placebo*cough**) Enough in fact, that I would repeat it for many years.
Now I try and stay out of it, and if that fails, use Zanfel or the Walgreens equivalent.
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Mar 20, 2014 - 09:36am PT
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Working as a Powerline tree trimmer in Oregon, I have spent a good part of my life covered in Poison Oak. I've had cases so bad I have to get steroid shots and take steroid pills that caused horrible nightmares for weeks. My reaction to poison oak, ivy, and sumac is so strong that I would be terrified to eat some.
I've always thought about trying it... Instead, I moved to Arizona.
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MisterE
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 09:40am PT
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I've always thought about trying it... Instead, I moved to Arizona.
^^Stay away from Oak Creek Canyon in Sedona, then...
Very brave Limpingcrab, very brave...
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Mar 20, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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Funny you should mention that Mr E, I just went to Sedona for the first time a couple days ago!
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bob
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:13am PT
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I was told to do this once for my horrible reactions to all of the poison oak type stuff. I'm like Speelyei where my reactions have been so f-in bad in the past that I just couldn't bring myself to eating it, though I know people that do and it has worked for them.
What worked for me has been eating honey regularly from my friend's bee hives. His bees load up heavy on poison oak. Heavy!! The honey is awesome.
Anyhow, the first summer I spent at his farm working (2008) I wound up with 3 weeks of agony rolling around the bush with sweaty pores. I was worked.
Since then, as I said before, I have been eating that honey regularly and I haven't had a bad outbreak since. I'm a skeptic in general, but I should have by all means have had HORRIBLE cases of poison oak since then and they either didn't show or were minimal to the point of little bumps being gone in a day or two.
DIdn't royalty and such used to take arsenic and other poisons in small doses slowly increasing the doses to avoid getting their asses poisoned by everyone who hates them, or some such people/persons?
Nice work Limping!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob J.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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I don't get a reaction to poison oak. Never have. Born lucky, maybe?
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Edge
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:53am PT
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When Chuck Nortis brushes up against poison oak, the vines break out in muscles.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:54am PT
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Considering what habaneros do to the old bunghole, you're a brave man indeed. Glad it worked for you.
Like Skully, I've been lucky that way. In 40 years of running around the woods, I've had a single quarter sized rash once (ivy). Been into Balch Camp, many times to Arch Rock, top of Roadside Attraction where I was neck deep swimming through it...no issues at all. Knock wood and all that.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:56am PT
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interesting. i have heard the trick about the Honey before too, and was curious. fortunately, i seem to be naturally very resistant. not resistant enough however to survive last weekend unscathed, but enough that i think the last time i had it more than a dot or two was over 20 years ago, and I tend to spend some time around the stuff.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:56am PT
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I am one of those that if I even get downwind from someone that's been near it in the last week I break out.
Skully, I worked with someone like you once, he actually made a pillow out of poison oak when he was sleeping outside in his bag and we were in a trailer. He also used to stare for hours at the sun and was a self confessed Satanist, really, one of the weirdest guys I ever met.
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julton
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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this past weekend on a hike I kicked a few PO leaves/limbs with my ankles as an experiment
That's not a convincing test. There's no way to know if you'd have reacted to that before. If you're willing to eat it why not man up and do a real test, one involving a paste of freshly pulped leaves and genitalia?
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all in jim
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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^^^
haha! I had a gf who was at one time immune til she accidentally used some leaves as tp!
She was very sensitive to it after that.
I'd really like to try eating it. I've even rolled some up in bread before but I'm too chicken.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
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My reaction during the last couple of weeks leaves ;-) me as a chicken as well. No way I'll eat it!
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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Yeah, my ex-wife was one of those "never had a reaction" types. Until she did. I wouldn't push my luck.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Mar 20, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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Impressive. The version I had heard was to start very very small, just a little piece of a leaf at first, then work up to a leaf sized dose. If I had easy access to a supply I might give it a shot, as I break out just from looking at the stuff.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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Bingo! ^^^^
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
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I live in such fear of PO that I am pretty good at avoiding it. Last time I had an outbreak, it was from a buddys' rope. Apparently he dragged it through a patch a day or so before. After leading a nice multipitch climb with his rope, I was able to successfully coat most of my legs and arms with PO oil.... Good times.
Limpingcrab, it will be interesting how long your immunity/resistance to the devils weed lasts.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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Limpingcrab, it will be interesting how long your immunity/resistance to the devils weed lasts.
I plan on eating it every once in a while forever so hopefully it lasts.
I feel your pain, I was living in fear too. Or I should say I FELT your pain :)
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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Waste of time , unless you have goat DNA.
Hmmmmmmm, I may qualify.
Coming from the South I determined empirically I had little reaction to PI but got hauled up short when I went to Yos and met the PO. Drastically different experience.
No bueno por caca!
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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I knew about the local honey thing - at least for Spring/Fall allergies.
Since all of those plants have the same allergen (Urushiol) does that mean you are also immune to poison ivy and poison sumac?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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I assume so? We don't have ivy or sumac around here so I can't test that
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julton
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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You haven't tested poison oak yet!
Urushiol is a mixture of compounds which varies depending on the plant species.
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otisdog
Big Wall climber
Sierra Madre & McGee Creek, Ca.
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Mar 20, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
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There used to be a medication called 'Neoxyn', or something similar. It was 94% hydrogen peroxide, and came with popsickle sticks. You poured it onto the blisters and scratched with the sticks, breaking the blisters - then you poured more on the exposed oils. Worked well, and was nice to be able to scratch your itch, too. After I ran out, I tried using just the hydrogen peroxide, and it was equally effective.
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alleyehave
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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The f*#k did I just read?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Mar 20, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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You're so sneaky, Kath.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
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Ha! eKat that is awesome!
I figured even if it was a placebo effect I'd still be happy, as long as there was an effect. Sometimes after eating it I start imagining I itch everywhere. I should set up a sneaky dosing plan...
Edit: thanks for the info too!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
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T Hocking, yer logic is based on the premise that Locker started out lightly.
This I doubt.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Mar 20, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
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I grew up severely reactive to honey bee stings to the point I could die. I went through 5 years of systematic desensitization. I would go to an allergist every week and sometimes every other week where I would receive an injection of diluted bee venom, would have to wait an hour, check me over, and then I'd be on my way. On one occasion they gave me a shot of epinephrine to get it out of my system.
I haven't been stung in over 20 years, so I have no idea how effective it was.
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julton
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
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There are different mechanisms that result in allergies and bee stings are due to a particular type of antibody response whereas poison oak elicits a response by immune cells. So even though desensitization works for bee stings it doesn't necessarily mean it will work for poison oak.
So does it work? I've looked into this before and read conflicting things. There have been some studies with both positive and negative results. Supposedly you have to keep eating it periodically to maintain the protection. I'm skeptical and not willing to be a guinea pig.
If you're really immune you should be able to roll in the stuff, not just kick a branch. If all it does is reduce your sensitivity by some amount it will be hard to prove that since the amount you are exposed to at any time is invisible. And sensitivity has an age component as well.
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julton
climber
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
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Peanut allergy is also an IgE response like bee sting, isn't it? We need an immunologist to post here. It's just too easy to find people on the internet to say that something worked but harder to actually show it.
But a little chocolate wouldn't hurt. There's a compound in chocolate (I forget what it's called) that binds to the same receptor in human brains that THC binds to.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 20, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
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What happened to the guy eKat thought needed subliminal sex therapy?
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Mar 20, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
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YOU ARE GONNA DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEEP US POSTED !!!!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2014 - 12:07am PT
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I admit kicking a branch isn't exactly scientific proof, but for how sensitive I was I consider it pretty solid evidence.
I don't have the guts to really go for it, but maybe in a few more months I'll make a PO slip-n-slide or something for the skeptics.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 21, 2014 - 01:35am PT
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I got two used wild country flex stem cams, two old sets of tele skis(with no bindings), some pieces of static rope, and some new socks for anyone that posts YouTube video of them eating a salad. I'll even pay shipping if it is a big salad. Who knows, if you put some pan seared tuna and wasabi on there you could sell it as medicinal for $50 a plate.
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Mar 21, 2014 - 05:06am PT
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This reminded me of an article I read a while ago about treating allergies in very severely allergic kids:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/can-a-radical-new-treatment-save-children-with-severe-allergies.html?pagewanted=all
The strategy to get rid of the allergy is to start by feeding the kids very tiny, tiny doses and then gradually increase the dose. This has to be done over a long period of time.
WRT the peanut desensitization it should be noted that one isn't something to try on your own, results may include death (like climbing), so get a doctor to help. And don't go spiking your allergic buddies' beer!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Mar 21, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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I don't much like poison oak, or rather it doesn't much like me. Keeps me away from some places I'd otherwise really like to go. I'm not willing to start eating the stuff though... I'd rather just avoid it.
Hope that immunity is real for you, and that you're able to maintain it.
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OR
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2014 - 11:45am PT
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Mr Way would turn a 5 min approach into an hour to avoid the stuff.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Mar 25, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
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Daniel, when you told me last November at Balch camp that you are doing immunization from poison oak by eating it, I took it as you are joking 100%.
wow, I still can not fully believe that you are serious, but looks like it works..
congratulations...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2016 - 09:37am PT
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It's that time of year in CA! Ate a couple leaves last month, went caving, yet again I have no reaction.
Eat up!
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Mar 27, 2016 - 10:25am PT
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Hey, you should make a salad . . .
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 27, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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Mr Way would turn a 5 min approach into an hour to avoid the stuff.
Hmmm...five minutes with Mr. Way always seemed like an hour.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 27, 2016 - 10:40am PT
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Yes this the correct way to combat poison oak and other poisons.
Men in old daze did it this way.
Eat tiny dose over period of time and you'll become immune.
But now!!!!
Modern science and doctors will charge you a stooopid amount of money with no cure.
Just see ....
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perswig
climber
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Mar 27, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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Allergy and immunology clinicians do this (for various allergens, don't know about PO) all the time, usually with carefully-titrated and -timed sq injections but occasionally with topically-applied suspensions.
Hypersensitivity suppression (avoiding IgE trigger and release of histamine, LT/PGs, and cytokines) fades and usually requires maintenance dosing (no, not THAT dosing), or restart after an extended period.
Props to those who've done it themselves, esp if you didn't own an epipen when you started - brave!
I remember our family GP sending my mom home with hand-rolled pred tabs every spring for all the poison ivy and sumac thrashing we kids would do around the house over the summer. As well as some valium, I'm pretty sure.
Dale
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Mar 27, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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Nice Vaaaannnnzzzzz Burchy
This is a less archaic way to do it.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 27, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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Naturopathic crap^^^ did not work on me.
I do have one other friend who did the eating it thing and swears it worked. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to try it. Fortunately I don't live in PO central any more.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 27, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
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I can attest to the efficacy of the "limited exposure" approach.
As I reached middle age, I wanted something more "natural" than the requisite combination of Viagra and Extenze. Let's say I have "small hands."
So, once a week I would rub PO on the "part" that needed "extenzing," and by the next day, well, let's just say that the results would be dramatic: significant size increase, particularly thickness, coupled with swelling and a delightful shade of purple. Also a pleasing texture, "ribbed," as they say, for "ultimate pleasure."
Furthermore, the effect would last for at least a week.
All this with no drugs!
But, to the efficacy part, over time the effects became less and less dramatic. Now, try as I might, I'm just stuck with "small hands."
Oh, and I can still get the PO rash on any other part of my body.
Sigh
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2016 - 03:19pm PT
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^^^ I got it there twice, that sounds about right...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 27, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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^^^ Did you enjoy the delightful "ribbed" effect? Did your significant other?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Mar 27, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
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Naturopathic crap^^^ did not work on me.
You're supposed to put it in you not on you.
Maybe you're too sensitive.
;-)
Worked for me.
~~~
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
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Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 27, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
^^^ Did you enjoy the delightful "ribbed" effect? Did your significant other?
Ha! She was not interested in testing it out. I did not enjoy it, as a matter of fact.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Mar 27, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
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My grandfather used to tell a story about poison oak from his grade school days growing up outside of Chico… This would have been back in, oh, something like 1915.
Seems that young Harold was nearly impervious to poison oak; so much so that he would taunt the girls at school by putting a leaf on his tongue and showing all the coeds his fine trick. Did this many times and became the schoolyard sensation.
…worked great, until he eventually wound up with a flaming rash throughout his mouth, throat, and lips! He never pulled that stunt again.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Mar 27, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
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I've been one of the lucky ones. I could roll in it with no ill effects.
Susan
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Mar 28, 2016 - 06:00am PT
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There is some seriously funny sh#t in this thread. Some good comedians on the taco!
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Mar 28, 2016 - 07:34am PT
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You guys are crazy. If I come into to contact with it, I just rub some mugwort leaves on that area and there's no problem. Mugwort, conveniently, grows in the same places PO does. Old timer San Gabriel Mountains hikers taught me this.
http://yankeebarbareno.com/2011/03/03/mugwort-a-natural-poison-oak-preventive/
I was taught how to use mugwort as a kid, but to actually prevent getting poison oak rather than to treat an existing rash. I would pick the fresh leaves and crush them together and then rub them on my skin soon after exposure to poison oak. It’s a natural treatment that is free and easy to use and, I believe, always worked to somehow neutralize the active ingredient in poison oak, urushiol. And mugwort is readily available in the woods often times actually growing near or right beside poison oak.
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Ben Emery
Trad climber
Back and forth the Pacific
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Mar 28, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
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I believe you, but I'm going to want a double-blind study published in the Lancet before I try that method.
Not quite the Lancet, but there is at least one study using a placebo control group out there that claims you can get desensitization ("hyposensitization") via the oral tolerance route:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/06180687
Admittedly, they gave purified urushiol (the allergen in poison oak) rather than leaves, but the principle should be the same.
For some reason I can't access the article from home so can't see how rigorous it was, but if anyone cares enough about the scientific nitty-gritty I'm happy to look it up from work where I should have access to the journal.
Fortunately in spite of a bit of contact over the years I'm yet to react to the stuff. I hope to stay that way.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Mar 28, 2016 - 10:52pm PT
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I repeatedly rubbed poison ivy on my genitals until I stopped having a reaction to poison ivy. You should try it.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2016 - 11:01pm PT
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Ben, that's awesome, I haven't seen that before! My wife will believe that much more than my old yellow-paged books about Native American plant uses. (I'll access the article at work tomorrow as well).
SLR, twice was enough for me.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 28, 2016 - 11:50pm PT
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Hahah, just read the abstract of that paper... last sentence:
Side effects, detected by questionnaire, were limited to vesicular and urticarial rashes and pruritus ani in 18 of 21 test subjects.
From our friend Wikipedia:
"Pruritus ani (also known as anusitis) is the irritation of the skin at the exit of the rectum"
Only affected 18 out of 21 though. no big deal.
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Ben Emery
Trad climber
Back and forth the Pacific
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Mar 29, 2016 - 06:41am PT
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^^^^
No gain without a little, er, pain, I suppose....
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roy
Social climber
NZ -> SB,CA -> Zurich
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Mar 29, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
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For all those who say poison oak is no big deal - I was once in that camp. I would hold back branches with bare arms so my sensitive climbing partners could get to the base of the climbs. For many years. Then one time, ostensibly no different from the others, ...
It was a full blown, eyes swollen shut, experience. Requiring a month of steriod treatment to get over. Luckily the steriods worked fast, but the other 3 1/2 weeks of tapering them down had some interesting pyschoactive effects.
Natural immunity is only good until the body says "Oh sh#t - what is this stuff?"
But every winter my spouse goes through a program of doctor monitored desensitization (to other allergens) and it makes a difference.
Cheers, Roy
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 11:30pm PT
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Update: Apparently the effect wears off if you don't eat any for a few years. I went cave hunting last Friday and have rashes on both legs. I got so used to not reacting that I forgot to eat it and didn't worry about avoiding it.
I should note that I swam through the stuff for about 100 feet and my reaction is still better than it used to be when I would just look at the stuff.
Time to start eating it again!
On the bright side, we discovered another cave to add to the park database! Worth it!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jewel Weed aka Spotted-Touch-Me-Not completely neutralizes it, before, during, and after ... rub the stems and leaves on your skin, or have a bucket of water by the back door with some in it ... in winter take the water from the bucket and freeze into ice cubes kept in your freezer ..
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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My god the only thing I am SO happy about when I clicked on this thread is you had the foresight to block out the plumber's crack on your opening photo. Limp I would have never been able to see you any other way after that even still I may have a hard time with it.
Actually an interesting idea that might work with some allergies. My daughter seemed to get over an allergy to pineapple by eating little bits and pieces and gradually increasing till she had no more reactions. Who knows?
Arne
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all... fun to see this, :)
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bchains
Trad climber
Bay Area, CA
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Sounds like some goofy Dr. Oz bullsh#t, and peer-reviewed (ie: not internet mumbo jumbo) studies in legit medical journals say no dice:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/548159?redirect=true
(of course this could all be a conspiracy mannnnnn - drug companies want you to be itchy so they can sell you bogus mind control creams)
What's the idea here --- that your body is developing antigens against urushiol which is an organic compound almost definitely speedily metabolized or reacted with in your stomach into nothing by the various acids, amylases, enzymes, etc??
Utushiol triggers an allergic contact dermatitis in skin by binding to protein carrier molecules forming a hapten. That ain't happening in your stomach.
Peanut, bee sting, pollen, dust, etc allergies are caused by proteins, and allergen desensitization therapy is done by injecting minuscule amounts into the skin to expose the immune system to them over time in gradually increasing concentrations.
The true test will be to rub PO/PI/PS leaves all over your junk and see if anything happens. Please post pics as proof.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Please post pics as proof._
Uh, maybe not..........
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Maybe even uses fire as a strategy to take over? Like Lodgepole pine?
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Toxicodendron aka poisin oak is a diverse genus of plants that contains both toxic and non toxic varieties. In ways it is like marijuana. Some strains are more powerful than others and some do nothing. Yet the vegitative forms of all of them look very similar. Thus people may think they are not allergic to poisin oak because they have been exposed to its non toxic varieties. Similarly, some may think its okay to eat a leaf because they ate a non toxic or attenuated strain. Some people may have different immune reactions to it because the DNA splicing that creates our millions of different B-cell types results in the greatest genetic diversity observed in nature. Thus we observe a wide range of reactions from mild irritation to anaphylactic shock and sudden death. I used to have an employee who could bust through poisin oak with a chainsaw and not get rash in places other people did. Some people who eat leaves die. People die from the smoke or eating food cooked over fire that contains it. A friend of mine tried eating half a leaf of it. His anus swelled into a prolapsing softball for four days.
Also complicating things is that poisin oak that is toxic goes through annual and semi annual phases during which its toxicity changes. A bush that gave no allergy in one season may cause allergy in another. Poisin oak is like a scab that grows where the land has been damaged, sometimes by nature, sometimes by man. That is a good sign that it should be left alone. It is known that wounding a plant causes it to release chemical messengers to nearby plants to be on the defensive. This has been shown in science by measurement of salicylate levels increasing in plants that are near but not in contact with plants that are wounded. Because wounding spreads bacterial disease, plants produce methyl salicylate in response to wounding or the signal that nearby plants are wounded. Yes its like Pandora (Avatar😄.)
So the plants talk to each other... Lesson learned: Native American teachings from the Wisdom Fire, "dont step on the plant peoples heads!" Yes plants are people. If one damages plants while walking near poisin oak, it may react by secreting more toxin. That is why poisin oak is more toxic along trails where vegitation is disturbed. Meanwhile, in the wild places it may not be as nasty. This is not always true since natural forces such as deer and erosion disturb it. I find that people who crush and damage vegitation get the rash. The plant definitely causes worse rash when damaged and if you get scratched by the stems. Ive seen some bad cases where it scratched people in winter when the leaves were absent. The old wives tale that Indians dont get poisin oak has a kernel of truth. But it is not genetic. Plenty of natives get the rash. But traditional native people usually dont because they "walk in beauty." That is to say they dont trample the vegitation and walk rock to rock, avoiding even stepping in and smushing soft dirt.
My personal defense against poisin oak is pre exposure application of mugwort (Artemesia vulgaris) which almost always grows where toxicodendron does. The best cure after exposure is, believe it or not, to wash the oil off with white gas. But do not spread the oil or that can make it worse. In any case, there are many factors that contribute to poisin oaks mysteries. It is an unpredictable and poorly understood genus. Not all of Mother Nature is for us to contact with directly. That poisin oak is protecting something. So the best advice I can give is dont eat it and dont step on the plant peoples heads!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2018 - 12:36pm PT
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What's the idea here --- that your body is developing antigens against urushiol which is an organic compound almost definitely speedily metabolized or reacted with in your stomach into nothing by the various acids, amylases, enzymes, etc??
Utushiol triggers an allergic contact dermatitis in skin by binding to protein carrier molecules forming a hapten. That ain't happening in your stomach. My thinking is just like yours, bchains, I don't understand the physiology of it. Considering urushiol is an oil it probably remains intact through the stomach since fat digestion is mostly done in the intestines. I just assigned research papers to my physiology classes and encouraged some students to look into hyposensitization to allergies via the oral route. Maybe if they spend the time they'll find something. Placebo or not, it worked!
Toxicodendron aka poisin oak is a diverse genus... The only (naturally occurring) Toxicodendron species in the Southern Sierra is diversilobum so when anyone sees it around here they're seeing poison oak. I didn't know there were studies about poison oak communication but it wouldn't surprise me since it's been seen in many other species. Plants are cool!
Question it all you want everyone, I went from EXTREMELY sensitive to nothing, and I had contact with it many, many times with no reaction until last Friday.
I shall eat it and become invincible again!!!!!
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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The species that are listed in the Sierra are those that are "known." Other plants that look like poisin oak may be classified differently. As I said before, like Marijuana which only comes in three species, C.sativa, C. indica and C. ruderalis, Toxicodendron comes in varieties that range in potency. My statements are mostly based on personal observation and anecdotal evidence. We simply havent unlocked all the botanical mysteries which science has yet to uncover. As for plant to plant studies of salicylate and inter plant commucation, these are known primarily among crops and indicator species used in plant pathology. I am not aware of studies pertaining to toxicodendron but the empirical evidence seems to suggest that it follows the pattern of interplant communication obseved elsewhere. There has been some military research into the weaponization of poisin oak. I added some edits to my last post if you are interested and thanks for your replies😎
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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It returns surprisingly fast in chaparral country, first shoots up sometimes. Remarkably resiliant fire adapted plant.
PI, here too in the NE... An entire big(by CT standards) mountaintop burned clear to the rocks about 20 years ago. First thing back was poison ivy which now blankets the summit in juicy thick vines...
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Sometimes I'm allergic to poison oak and break out, especially if I touch the oak around the base of apple tree in my backyard in direct sunlight. Sometimes I seem to be totally immune out cleaning climbs and pulling down trellis arbors full of it. Why the big variation in sensitivity? Could it be like all allergies in general where emotions and programming play a significant role as to whether you react or no?
This stuff is mysterious. I know a guy who's terribly allergic to oak and all he has to do is look at it and he breaks out. He's terrified of even seeing it around. Does fear play a big role triggering the response? Lots of unconscious processes we don't understand fully yet.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Its Mother Nature's scab.
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TLP
climber
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The idea that the urushiol in PO (and other species) is a defense "toxin" doesn't pass the sniff test. Notable herbivores, like goats, are not sensitive to it at all. In fact they love it. I helped build a goat pen once, and the very first day the goats ate every bit of PI they could get at, before they ate any other plant. Some defense. However, the suggestion that individual plants vary in urushiol content, and may vary seasonally or annually, is totally possible.
It's hugely unlikely that urushiol in North American Toxicodendron species has anything in the slightest to do with human beings. We're new arrivals, and it is not. Unless there were some huge selective pressure on innocuous Toxicodendrons (or ancestors), there's no reason for the whole pathway to produce this compound would evolve, in the very limited time that there have been lots of people around. The first arrivals in California surely started setting and propagating fires all over the place, and as others have pointed out above, PO does really well in burned areas.
PO allergy is just one of those unhappy coincidences. It's my understanding that the allergy can come and go, whether or not you eat little bits. (People who are not sensitive go for years without needing to avoid the plant, then one unhappy day that they just thrash through it...) But I don't know. I avoid it.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
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Sounds like some goofy Dr. Oz bullsh#t, and peer-reviewed (ie: not internet mumbo jumbo) studies in legit medical journals say no dice:
I'm bored and my students are taking a test so I followed up on your article. I cam across quite a few articles that show successful hyposensitization, but they used different derivatives or even actual urushiol, along with various feeding schedules, and found significant improvement. No studies that I've seen found improvement in 100% of the subjects so that helps explain the contradictory anecdotal reports.
Chainsaw,
I read up on urushiol chemistry and there are indeed variations in the structure of it from species to species, region to region and sometimes plant to plant. The machanism is the same, but chemical variations can effect the severity of reaction. Cool stuff!
Some next level posion oak beta going on here. Lol, ya, getting kinda ridiculous. And I love it!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Upthread I mentioned my particular application of the magic chemical for libidinous purposes. As I've aged, that member has become immune to the desired reaction, although, as it become useless now for the desired purpose anyway, its failure to, shall we say, react, is the least of my present worries.
My once tight and well-controlled back door has grown increasingly flaccid with the passage of years, and with the specter of adult diapers looming, another use-case for the magic chemical and its attendant swelling occurred to me. I immediately put it into practice, and the results were all that one could hope!
The swelling is satisfyingly splendid, thereby taking the place of youthful compression. The one unfortunate side-effect is what could be called "ring sting," and from the rear I bear a striking resemblance to a baboon in heat, but that's a small price to pay for regaining control over my... uhh... destiny.
I know that, as with the aforementioned member, immunity is on its way. But I expect that while swelling provides temporary control, I can put aside the king's ransom that will soon be needed to purchase Depends by the case.
Until that day, urushiol has got my back.
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jstan
climber
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First prize to mb1.
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TLP
climber
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Oh, definitely, mb1 for the win. It's a little unsettling for this thread to be so close by to "Your favorite portrait having type 2 fun". I wonder if that's where limpingcrab was about to put the OP?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Did mb1 just start the "#MeAsWell" movement?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Never heard of Mugwort
Thank Jebus for Goggle
mugwort (Artemisia vulgaris)
Now that I know what it is, I can assure you I will not rub it on first before entering PO territory.
I use the avoidance method.
Chainsaw's post was very informative, I haven't thought about variations in potency, but it makes sense now.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 28, 2018 - 09:54am PT
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Recently in Santa Barbara, seven older folks died of the flu, and six out of the seven had a flu shot. Statistically speaking, one could still argue that in a sample of thousands, getting the shot might convey some benefits, but individual differences are there. Since individuals can have lethal reactions to any substance containing allergins (such as peanuts) I would hesitate to recommend taking poison oak.
My last Southwest Flight, I could only get pretzels (which I don't like) instead of peanuts (which I like) because there was one person on the flight with a peanut allergy. That's how careful the airlines are.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Feb 28, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
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Mugwort was used extensively by native Americans, and I used it during sweat lodges in Santa Barbara with my NA friends. One of them told me that when it got too intense during the ceremony that I should put it over my nose and mouth. It worked.
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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Feb 28, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
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This is so cool. Just came across this thread for the first time. When I was a little boy I lived in florida where there is tons of poison ivy. I read a similar story about how native americans ate the leaves and got inspired and did the same. it worked for me too as I tested it and showed off to my friends. in retrospect I was probably pretty lucky I didn't get super sick.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 28, 2018 - 03:21pm PT
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'You're gonna need an ocean. . .of calamine lotion. . .
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