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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Mar 19, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
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duct tape?
seriously... i resolve to inspect my gear more often...
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Mar 19, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
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Are Totem Basic cams designed the same way?
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Mar 19, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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^^^The answer is no. There are improvements in the Basic cams.
The blue/green Basic cam made by Totem is bomb proof.
I don't take whippers on small cams but I bounce tested the crap outt mine on Zodiac.
I really don't know how many times I placed that size but I back cleaned that sucker several times. I love the blue/green.
Plaid
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mapeze
climber
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Mar 21, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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Totem Basics have nothing to do with Fixe Aliens in terms of manufacture.
Design also has a lot of differences. One of them is the axle end (or endcap as Matt mentioned). Totem endcap in one axle side is formed by the axle itself, and the other side is riveted.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Mar 21, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
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alina
Trad climber
CA
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Mar 21, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks for commenting on this, Mikel.
For the non-expert, can you talk about the advantages of using riveting vs. a press-fit. What are the precision requirements for rivets at the size of blue Basic cam heads?
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mapeze
climber
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Mar 22, 2014 - 04:29am PT
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I have no experience with press-fit ends. I suppose that this method would require closer tolerances to have consistent strength results.
Our tolerance for Basic 0.50 rivet end diameter is +/-0,2mm. Axle end before riveting and washer tolerances must be controlled also. Our minimum strength requirement on pull-out test is 6kN for that size. There are no CE nor UIAA standard requirements for that test.
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rurp
Trad climber
ispain
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Mar 25, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
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red fixe alien issue:I bought a new one (sept 2014) has very weak spring , blocked on a climb , so useless in the best of case or not works properly in place in the worst of case.
I emalied fixe (Spain) twice: no answer at all.Back to the climb store to repair and sended to fixe (Spain)...3 months later is back.At the first climb the same issue again...
I own original CCH aliens for 15 years and still working like the first day.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 25, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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Are you guys saying these are more fragile than Metolius cams?! NOFKINWAY!!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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All I'm able to see in that photo is the press fit. Scary stuff, IMO. I fell and my cam disassembled itself. Have fun with that.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 25, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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I very much doubt it's a press fit, as the originals were threaded (with a round nut) and Fixe said they weren't changing anything. Plus a press fit retaining collar on a shaft that small is just about the dumbest idea possible and simply not done.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
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I very much doubt it's a press fit...dumbest idea possible... Dude - you of all people - look at the OP's PHOTO, then READ THE THREAD.
Don't worry, it's short.
It's a press fit - done wrong.
Yes, agree, it's the dumbest idea possible.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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Hello,
It was my conversation with Kevin (Fixe American importer) that led to the notion that the endcaps of the fixe aliens were press-fit on.
As far as I remember from the conversation, Kevin said that one endcap was threaded on, the other one was press-fit. I am not 100% sure I heard Kevin correctly, and I am not 100% sure Kevin is certain of the engineering of these cams. So, to get a definitive answer on the endcap design I would recommend talking to someone at Fixe in Spain.
best
matt
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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I am not 100% sure I heard Kevin correctly I'm 100% sure I see a smooth shaft in your photo.
There are no threads in your photo.
Did the threads break off - from bounce test loads? If so, the remaining shaft looks awfully long and clean. Feel free to confirm.
Therefore, it's either glued, pressed (interference) or represents a mysterious (alien?) fab process I've never heard of nor seen.
Did you send that thing back yet? If not, please don't. That thing is Exhibit A, worth far more than what you paid for it.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
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I sent the busted cam back to Kevin, he is sending back to Fixe Spain.
Looking at the end of the axle from a different angle, the axle is not completely smooth-- the results were not consistent with a press-fit endcap simply sliding off the end of the axle-- there was a definite break in the axle.
JLP-- I don't know why you are being so aggressive about this whole situation.
Vitaliy-- are the aliens less bomber than the mastercams? Yes. I still tremendously prefer aliens over mastercams.
best
matt
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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there was a definite break in the axle Got it.
I guess if I assume your photo isn't terribly distorted, I can measure some missing length in the shaft.
Would have been nice to see that in the first place, but I also assumed and didn't ask nor question what you claim to have heard from Kevin.
However - it's yet another disturbing problem. The only difference is that it's just not as dumb.
Are they over-torquing the collars, is the shaft heat treated incorrectly, are the material choices wrong for the loads, is any of this controlled, how many units are going to fail the same way?
?????
I dunno - but people I know use these things and there were serious injuries last time.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 25, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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Dude - you of all people - look at the OP's PHOTO, then READ THE THREAD.
Don't worry, it's short.
It's a press fit - done wrong.
No need to get worked up, JLP, and yes, I read the OP and looked at the pic. Fixe made a big deal about not changing a thing, and the axle in the pic ends right where the undercut for the threads would be in the original design. This view is supported by the fact that the pic shows only enough axle left for the lobe rather than enough for a lobe and a retaining collar. Additionally, if it was a press fit on the axle, there would be a ridge and longitudinal witness marks on the axle. Which there aren't. If you like I can dig out a CCH axle and post a pic of the undercut.
My guess is manufacturing defect making the undercut too deep or over torquing of the nut.
If someone happens to have a Fixe Alien they now don't trust and doesn't mind sacrificing it in the name of science, it's easy enough to remove the nut with two pliers (one on the solid end of the axle, one on the nut. Should be standard right hand thread).
EDIT- looks like I have suitable pics already uploaded. Here's a side view of a *CCH* Yellow. Definitely some sort of round thing on the axle, but not entirely clear how it's held on since it's clearly not riveted or brazed/welded.
Here's the axle later on, with the threads and undercut visible. As mentioned above, I suspect Fixed did not change this termination (except perhaps going Metric) and this part broke off, leaving the cam to fall apart.
EDIT x2 to change the pics to a Yellow that showed it better.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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I wouldn't say there would necessarily be visible witness marks, you don't really know the fit, nor the exact materials, hardness, etc. I've seen it both ways.
Sure looked like enough room for the lobe and then some to me, but sort of measuring the photo, as I said above, indicates as you say.
Did I see a picture or video at some point indicating they might fixture their final pull testing against these outer collars? If so, that would be interesting...
EDIT - kind of looks like a custom hardened pin from a specialty vendor, not something I would expect a cam maker to fabricate on their own. Your last pic looks like 1 piece of metal - no?
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 25, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
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Gotcha, JLP. Seems we were cross-posting, and me doing it slowly while eating dinner. :)
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M Brady
Boulder climber
Oregon City, OR
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Oct 23, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
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JLP - A press fit is actually very quick and easy to attain with off the shelf tooling. Reamers come in -.001 or even -.0005 relative to standard sizes. Most machinists I know, including myself, drill a hole 1/64th under the nominal hole size and them run a reamer that is -.001. 6061-T6, which is what I would assume cam lobes are made from, will gladly take a pressed pin at -.001 under and if not move to the -.0005 reamer.
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