Discussion Topic |
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 18, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
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Was bounce testing a blue/green fixe offset alien last weekend. This piece was about a year old, little use and no falls. The piece popped, and the cam fell apart (see picture) .
as you can see one of the pieces that hold the lobes onto the head came off.
Is this a warranty issue? Or are these cams expected to not always survive bounce testing?
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Mar 18, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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No picture Matt
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 18, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
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Absolutely a warranty issue and one that you should address IMMEDIATELY.
Lots of folks are using these units and need to know if they aren't reliable.
Take the time now to remember the circumstances that lead to the failure as clearly and precisely as possible and report the details to Fixe promptly.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
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Woops give me an hour, can't seem to upload the picture off my phone.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Mar 18, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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Like this??
Photos might be CCH though (pre-Fixe)..
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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no, see attached picture.
Also these are the new aliens, not the old ones.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
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I found a contact at Fixe Hardwear (kevin), and emailed him, I will see what he says.
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Jon H
Trad climber
Teaneck, NJ
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Mar 18, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
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Please post an update once you hear back.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 18, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
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Wow, talk about keeping the original's standards up.....or down. At least anyone who misses the CCH Aliens can get a set of these and feel at home.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 18, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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Yeah definitely a warranty issue.. fortunately this type of failure wouldn't be as likely to kill you as some others.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose and south lake tahoe, ca
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Mar 18, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
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I'm going to erase those pictures form my mind and continue to live in ignorant bliss haha
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 18, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
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Bizarre- that's the first defective one I've heard of since Fixe took over.
The photos from '07 are CCH/pre-Fixe I believe.
I'm sure you'll be hearing from Kevin soon.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 19, 2014 - 12:45am PT
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Can you post the batch number, or pic?
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Mar 19, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
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I've seen another one (of the new FIXE ones)like that. The little threaded ring that keeps the cams on the axle had stripped and could be pulled right off of the end without turning counter-clockwise. Over-tightened at the factory? Poor tolerance between the threaded components? Who knows...
They only seem to be held on with "permanent" locktite (thread-locker) so as to not bind the cams. A bit of solder in there from the factory would certainly give some peace of mind. If yours don't spin by hand, I certainly would NOT recommend trying to turn or tighten it with pliers. Once the bond of the threadlock is broken, it needs to be thoroughly cleaned out and reapplied.
K
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 19, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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These pix crack me up. F'aliens. F*#k everything about those cams.
I don't see any sort of threading, stripped or otherwise, in the OP's pix. Suggesting they are glued? If so, that's just hilarious. Have fun falling on your glued cams. I'm sure they stay together just awesome in their laboratory test fixtures.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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Update
I talked to Kevin, the US importer of the fixe aliens.
He graciously agreed to send me a new cam. He is sending the broken one to the manufacturer in Spain.
From talking to him, it seems like there is a side where the endcap is threaded on, and there is a side where the endcap is press-fit on. It looks like the endcap sheared off of on the press-fit side.
I will still climb with fixe (and totem) aliens, I think they are both great products.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 19, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
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The precision required for a good press fit and nothing else holding it together at that size seems like a really bad design. Straight off the ANSI fit chart (there are other charts), the range is 0.016mm or about 0.0006 inch for a chosen fit near that size of shaft/collar. Controlling to those specs for something as cheap as a cam seems impractical, expensive and difficult at any volume. The visible finish on the shaft indicates nothing near this kind of precision was even attempted. Thus, they obviously f*#ked it up. Have fun with your replacement. I had pretty much zero trust before for these cams, now I have even less!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 19, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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Thanks for sharing Kevin Daniels' response - sounds good.
There can be a lot of force on the end nuts/caps.
I wonder why they chose the press fit attachment when the tolerances make it difficult to do accurately.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Mar 19, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
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Oh, ugh. I've been drooling over these for a year and a half, just waiting until I could afford/justify the expense. Seems I need to do a bit more homework...at least the weather in NE is cooperating. ")
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 19, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
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So I've thought about this for a few minutes - I think this is actually pretty serious. This design flaw seems to be present on all sizes.
I don't know whether to laugh at the fanboys dumb enough to continue buying this cam, or be horrified for the lives of those who don't know any better.
Who would have guessed a design and manufacturing process conceived in a WY meth induced haze would have done any better under an organization whose core competence is stamping their name on bolt hangers.
I would suggest you do the community a favor and NOT send that cam back to Fixe, instead file a complaint with:
http://www.cpsc.gov/
Good luck,
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Mar 19, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
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duct tape?
seriously... i resolve to inspect my gear more often...
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Mar 19, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
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Are Totem Basic cams designed the same way?
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Mar 19, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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^^^The answer is no. There are improvements in the Basic cams.
The blue/green Basic cam made by Totem is bomb proof.
I don't take whippers on small cams but I bounce tested the crap outt mine on Zodiac.
I really don't know how many times I placed that size but I back cleaned that sucker several times. I love the blue/green.
Plaid
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mapeze
climber
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Mar 21, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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Totem Basics have nothing to do with Fixe Aliens in terms of manufacture.
Design also has a lot of differences. One of them is the axle end (or endcap as Matt mentioned). Totem endcap in one axle side is formed by the axle itself, and the other side is riveted.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Mar 21, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
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alina
Trad climber
CA
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Mar 21, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks for commenting on this, Mikel.
For the non-expert, can you talk about the advantages of using riveting vs. a press-fit. What are the precision requirements for rivets at the size of blue Basic cam heads?
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mapeze
climber
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Mar 22, 2014 - 04:29am PT
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I have no experience with press-fit ends. I suppose that this method would require closer tolerances to have consistent strength results.
Our tolerance for Basic 0.50 rivet end diameter is +/-0,2mm. Axle end before riveting and washer tolerances must be controlled also. Our minimum strength requirement on pull-out test is 6kN for that size. There are no CE nor UIAA standard requirements for that test.
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rurp
Trad climber
ispain
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Mar 25, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
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red fixe alien issue:I bought a new one (sept 2014) has very weak spring , blocked on a climb , so useless in the best of case or not works properly in place in the worst of case.
I emalied fixe (Spain) twice: no answer at all.Back to the climb store to repair and sended to fixe (Spain)...3 months later is back.At the first climb the same issue again...
I own original CCH aliens for 15 years and still working like the first day.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 25, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
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Are you guys saying these are more fragile than Metolius cams?! NOFKINWAY!!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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All I'm able to see in that photo is the press fit. Scary stuff, IMO. I fell and my cam disassembled itself. Have fun with that.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 25, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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I very much doubt it's a press fit, as the originals were threaded (with a round nut) and Fixe said they weren't changing anything. Plus a press fit retaining collar on a shaft that small is just about the dumbest idea possible and simply not done.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
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I very much doubt it's a press fit...dumbest idea possible... Dude - you of all people - look at the OP's PHOTO, then READ THE THREAD.
Don't worry, it's short.
It's a press fit - done wrong.
Yes, agree, it's the dumbest idea possible.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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Hello,
It was my conversation with Kevin (Fixe American importer) that led to the notion that the endcaps of the fixe aliens were press-fit on.
As far as I remember from the conversation, Kevin said that one endcap was threaded on, the other one was press-fit. I am not 100% sure I heard Kevin correctly, and I am not 100% sure Kevin is certain of the engineering of these cams. So, to get a definitive answer on the endcap design I would recommend talking to someone at Fixe in Spain.
best
matt
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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I am not 100% sure I heard Kevin correctly I'm 100% sure I see a smooth shaft in your photo.
There are no threads in your photo.
Did the threads break off - from bounce test loads? If so, the remaining shaft looks awfully long and clean. Feel free to confirm.
Therefore, it's either glued, pressed (interference) or represents a mysterious (alien?) fab process I've never heard of nor seen.
Did you send that thing back yet? If not, please don't. That thing is Exhibit A, worth far more than what you paid for it.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
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I sent the busted cam back to Kevin, he is sending back to Fixe Spain.
Looking at the end of the axle from a different angle, the axle is not completely smooth-- the results were not consistent with a press-fit endcap simply sliding off the end of the axle-- there was a definite break in the axle.
JLP-- I don't know why you are being so aggressive about this whole situation.
Vitaliy-- are the aliens less bomber than the mastercams? Yes. I still tremendously prefer aliens over mastercams.
best
matt
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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there was a definite break in the axle Got it.
I guess if I assume your photo isn't terribly distorted, I can measure some missing length in the shaft.
Would have been nice to see that in the first place, but I also assumed and didn't ask nor question what you claim to have heard from Kevin.
However - it's yet another disturbing problem. The only difference is that it's just not as dumb.
Are they over-torquing the collars, is the shaft heat treated incorrectly, are the material choices wrong for the loads, is any of this controlled, how many units are going to fail the same way?
?????
I dunno - but people I know use these things and there were serious injuries last time.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 25, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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Dude - you of all people - look at the OP's PHOTO, then READ THE THREAD.
Don't worry, it's short.
It's a press fit - done wrong.
No need to get worked up, JLP, and yes, I read the OP and looked at the pic. Fixe made a big deal about not changing a thing, and the axle in the pic ends right where the undercut for the threads would be in the original design. This view is supported by the fact that the pic shows only enough axle left for the lobe rather than enough for a lobe and a retaining collar. Additionally, if it was a press fit on the axle, there would be a ridge and longitudinal witness marks on the axle. Which there aren't. If you like I can dig out a CCH axle and post a pic of the undercut.
My guess is manufacturing defect making the undercut too deep or over torquing of the nut.
If someone happens to have a Fixe Alien they now don't trust and doesn't mind sacrificing it in the name of science, it's easy enough to remove the nut with two pliers (one on the solid end of the axle, one on the nut. Should be standard right hand thread).
EDIT- looks like I have suitable pics already uploaded. Here's a side view of a *CCH* Yellow. Definitely some sort of round thing on the axle, but not entirely clear how it's held on since it's clearly not riveted or brazed/welded.
Here's the axle later on, with the threads and undercut visible. As mentioned above, I suspect Fixed did not change this termination (except perhaps going Metric) and this part broke off, leaving the cam to fall apart.
EDIT x2 to change the pics to a Yellow that showed it better.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 25, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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I wouldn't say there would necessarily be visible witness marks, you don't really know the fit, nor the exact materials, hardness, etc. I've seen it both ways.
Sure looked like enough room for the lobe and then some to me, but sort of measuring the photo, as I said above, indicates as you say.
Did I see a picture or video at some point indicating they might fixture their final pull testing against these outer collars? If so, that would be interesting...
EDIT - kind of looks like a custom hardened pin from a specialty vendor, not something I would expect a cam maker to fabricate on their own. Your last pic looks like 1 piece of metal - no?
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 25, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
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Gotcha, JLP. Seems we were cross-posting, and me doing it slowly while eating dinner. :)
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M Brady
Boulder climber
Oregon City, OR
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Oct 23, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
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JLP - A press fit is actually very quick and easy to attain with off the shelf tooling. Reamers come in -.001 or even -.0005 relative to standard sizes. Most machinists I know, including myself, drill a hole 1/64th under the nominal hole size and them run a reamer that is -.001. 6061-T6, which is what I would assume cam lobes are made from, will gladly take a pressed pin at -.001 under and if not move to the -.0005 reamer.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 23, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
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Dems the old aliens
You gotta get em from that weird guy that hoards nuts.
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dhayan
climber
los angeles, ca
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Oct 23, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
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The same thing happened to my friends CCH blue alien and she wasn't even bounce testing it. We just found it on the rack missing the termination piece. There was threading so I got a nut from a hardware store and tightened it up - good as new!
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| Messages 1 - 42 of total 42 in this topic |
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