* When is Climbing Considered Art?*

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Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 10, 2006 - 10:28am PT
When is climbing considered art?

John Bachar once quoted some artistic maxim:
“If it is art, it is not for everyone and if it is for everyone, it is not art”.

Buried deep in those WOS threads was a statement by Jaybro and pointed to the WOS guys, not at all meant as damaging, but it was probing: he said, to paraphrase,
“An artist does not explain her work, are you guys artists?”
(this is not BTW, meant as an extension of the WOS threads).

I would suggest that rules in climbing plus the movement skills, are the basis for implementing the craft. And if you are familiar with one of the definitions that has been around for a long time about art, it is that there is a distinction between craft and art. And it goes something like, first, you master your craft, you are technician. At some point, you turn a corner and begin to implement an intuitive synthesis. Statements are made, and quite often not understood, except by the few who may or may not be deeply engaged in a particular movement.

So, I submit there is this highly codified (craft) and somewhat flexible form of expression (art), which follows and does evolve in terms of our climbing.

For me, there is a personal sense of satisfaction I get from implementing expression within "constraints",
those constraints being:

1) My intuitive and physical limitations.
2) A few "rules" imposed perhaps arbitraily by the "artistic" community, as to the form of the craft.
3) The structural rigor imposed by the natural environment, ie, "the canvas".


Anybody?
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:53am PT
I am a little hesitant to respond since the definition of 'art' supports whole PhD departments in big universities. But...like, what is the alternative.

As a starting point, if we define art as an expression that moves someone else, then the there are only a few things in climbing that can be considered.

Can the linking of the features--excluding the rock itself--of a climb be considered art? I cannot think of any examples off hand, where the rock features were raised to 'art' on the basis of the climber's moves across them.

Can the movement of a climber over rock be considered art? I would say it can be just like dance--art--to me.

Can the concept of a style of climbing be art? Trickier, in my opinion. Sort of like performance art. Bachar's style of climbing taken in total might qualify, as would most extreme climbers who have mastered a cutting edge of style.

160+ words—long enough.
goatboy smellz

climber
up a peak without a paddle
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:54am PT
Duchamp once said, and I'm paraphrasing...
"An artist creates half the work the other half is brought by the viewer"

Anything that inspires... in my eyes is considered art.

oobbala schmoobala ooga booga boogly booo....

Ultrabiker

Ice climber
Eastside
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:56am PT
When one finishes a climb/FA, shakes off the sweat and tears, packs up the gear, walks off down the approach, stops, then looks back at the route with a grin on their face and smile in their heart and says, "Thanks"!.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 11:00am PT
Nice start.

To cut to it personaly,
For me there are movement skills which are mastered (craft).
There is a highly nuanced internal experience, much like dance, which feels to me like art.

At the least, it is a highly refined form of good kicks!
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:09am PT
Once upon a time in Texas, a bunch of climbers were swinging around in one of hueco's jug haul roof Caves (the name escapes me today in my dotterage)
A reiterment age couple, replete in bermudas, fishing hats, cameras, etc walked up and peered in.
"any Rock art in there?"the man asked hopefully.
I scanned for 'glyphs,and seeing none said,
"Nah, just performence art."
The couple squated down for a better look,
"Strenuous performences art!" one of them said with a laugh.
"good luck." they smiled and wandered off.
goatboy smellz

climber
up a peak without a paddle
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:14am PT
HELL YES!!!

If it's not "FUN" why bother? Why start up? Why put body to stone, canvas, film, to anything...





Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:23am PT
I suggest that climbing is a form of poetry, which of course is one of the arts.

(Not a true/false question.)

Anders
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Aug 10, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
Is dance art? If it is, does it require viewer to be considered art?

My feeling is yes, and no.

I like climbing best when I feel like I'm dancing.

But having danced my whole life, I know that dancing doesn't always feel like dancing. Maybe at those times, it's bad art or a work in process, but it's still part of an artistic process.

Although I can appreciate the idea of a route as art, the 'real' art in climbing for me happens when someone starts up a route and is gone when the route is over.

Reminds me of one of my favorite route names in the Valley: Ephemeral Clogdance on GPA.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 10, 2006 - 12:33pm PT
I am a little hesitant to respond since the definition of 'art' supports whole PhD departments in big universities.

LOL Roger


Good story Jaybro.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Aug 10, 2006 - 12:50pm PT
route setting with plastic is an artform, imho. It's like creating the art of motion.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Aug 10, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
An important part of my statement was "for me". I also said that I appreciate the route as art, but I don't connect with memories of routes and details of the rock as tightly as many. It's a matter that's independent of what 'should' be, and simply is about what naturally resonates within me. And I am first a dancer.

Once a dance has been done, you can think about it, remember it, take away what you learned, etc, but you can't get that precise moment back.

Others can visit your route, look at your pictures, hear your stories, and try to envision what it was, but the best parts of that moment, IMO, are gone, and a new one is in its place for the latercomers to fill with their own experience...even when I happen to be the latercomer or looker-back on my own experience. I guess I have a poor memory for intense feeling.

Dance companies all over the world will do Balanchine's Swan Lake, and everyone involved with probably be filled with a sense of the history of the work, including those who have danced it before them. Nonetheless, it is a new work every time it gets done.

I'm certainly don't mean to come off as though I'm poo-pooing the idea of pulling art out of history.

But in the continuum of transcendental experiences, reading about Balanchine is pretty academic. Watching a master dance his works can be wonderful. Trying to stomp through the movements myself is better yet. But, for me, the best of all is to crank up the tunes in my head in an open and empty space and just start dancing for the pure joy of it all by myself.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 10, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
Climbing is Vogon poetry-- great for the writer, excruciating for the reader.

Some art is for everyone, art that touches everyone is at its most powerful.

It takes practice to be good at either.




Oh your question, Tar-baby. Climbing is considered art when you consider it as such.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Aug 10, 2006 - 01:11pm PT
"If that master dances alone in a room with no observers, I think of that as craft, not art.

And of course the 'for me' is explicit, implicit, whatever. I get it. Art is inherently 'for me.' The reception is just as unique to each individual as are the dance steps done by each company."

Although I totally agree w/ your last statment...that even watching someone else is a highly individual experience...It seems contradictory to me to say that you need an audience to elevate craft to art. Perhaps I misunderstand?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 10, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
Its not "when", it simply IS.
That's not to say that it has to be good.

For me climbing can be both performance art and creative art.

I've put up routes with minimalist sculpting that makes a statement about human interaction with nature. (And don't jump down my throat as my intent is to minimalize SUBSEQUENT human impact, and that too is a statement.)

But art need not be appreciated or even seen (or heard) to BE art.

I've soloed routes that have never been repeated, nor are even known.
Call it art awaiting discovery.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 01:58pm PT
hey this is fun.

a bit Off Topic:
DMT!
that back country stone sculpture of the family; i totally forgot to ask Phil Bircheff (a sculptor/climber) if he knew anything about that when i met him recently.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 10, 2006 - 02:13pm PT
Yeah Roy! a thought stretching thread, I was starting to lose faith in this forum.

scuse me for the self referential spray but "my life as an artist"...

"I get up. I walk. I fall down. Meanwhile I keep dancing" millel

As a teen Valley dude, I often considered the dance aspect of the climbing craft, I had to, I was too weak to do a lot of what I did back then, when I do butterballs now I still smile at the far flung small footholds I was needing when I was 15 in eb's. I had to dance rather than struggle. Superb models were provided by the technique masters of the day Ron K. and Dale B.
I discussed this dance art aspect with many friends, geologic choreography, interpreting the stone patterns as a sport/art performance in comparison to stage choreography.

11 years later I got to participate fully when climbing became spectator performance in the way of competitions at resorts and in theatres and stadiums. We got to pick our own music, once I made the finals in a fine theatre in Seattle, to groovy new age music and colored theatrical lighting cranking on a piece of sculpture by french artist Jean-Marc Blanche (constructed by Tarbuster by the way). Christian Griffith said only half jockingly that he was moved to tears. art sport?

So I was totally open to exploring when I met and started brainstorming with choreographer Amelia Rudolph. I went from theatre comps to climbing as performance, at Cityrock Gym- turned into a theatrically lit sculpture garden, I got to do a solo up the big wall with a great tabla player laying down the grooves.

Outdoors we sometimes pulled off making a bigger artful political statements, once performing for the delegates at the UN conference on climate change in Buenas Aires. As a celebration/homage to the Peregrine Falcon we created a performance piece called Peregrine Dreams, 6 of us climbed the Shield Route and made a dance adjacent to the groove pitch. Every member of the troupe led at least one big aid pitch, and the dance was cool and the film turned out really well. This was photographed for Life Mag by Galen Rowell, who also set up a lunch meeting with the head of the predatory bird group for an update on the peregrines status. He hung with us in our 3 double wide portaledge camp at the base of the triple cracks for the post dance celebration, then jumared from the middle of the Shield to the summit arriving before midnight then running out to hit his next assignment.

The encounters with Bay Area dancers and the Camp 4 boys culture was classic, Dick Cilley booming across the lot "Hey Mayfield, wheres your tu tu!!" The camp fire female artist vs sexist climber discussion was memorable, we actually felt that minds were opened, and grudginly the "Band o Kooks" gained some respect.

I am considering collaborating on "trails and vistas" a performance installation around a walking loop from Donner Ski Ranch. The loop goes by some good cliffs (Star Walls) and boulders. (Sept. 10th.) And I am trying to finesse my way up a hard steep sport route this week.

the dance goes on.

Peter
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
Love Gas:
Ha! and Wahoo!
LOL,
Yours,
Turdbuster.

Ok, then, now back to a nice tuchy-feely parlor chat, a la the Salons of olden tymes.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 10, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
photos to go with my previous post

the shield - Chris Clay, Heather Bear, Amelia Rudolph, Me, photo. Steve Schneider

Nate D

climber
San Francisco
Aug 10, 2006 - 03:44pm PT
Interesting topic, and one that comes up from time to time on this forum.

I've applied my puny little brain to this notion before, so for what it's worth, here are my thoughts:


The rock itself is the ultimate art. It's no blank canvas by any means, but does become a stage on which we perform our little transient dance.

Now in terms of creating a route, this is far more synonymous with design -- which is a problem solving discipline embracing both form and function. A route is not a static work or object to simply gaze upon. It it not the stuff of galleries, but is more like a building or designed product -- it is meant to be used, hopefully with admiration, by others.

Architects and designers cannot really hide their final product, as it is designed for others. It is inherently populist, so to speak.

Great architectural works stand the test of time and become classics. Many deteriorate or become empty shells, as they fall out of fashion or become neglected and lose, to some extent, their functionality. Likewise for routes. The best and classic climbs are a grand collaboration between the first ascentionist and the rock itself -- as it yields a natural passage. They are the most inspiring and useful. They are carefully preserved or restored. They keep us coming back.
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Aug 10, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
Really refreshing topic Roy. My dictionary defines art as "skill acquired experience, study, or observation; . . . the conscious use of skill and creative imagination, especially in the production of aesthetic objects." So art does not require an audience, and I don't agree that it has to be seen to be art. How many works of art that could be seen were never seen because the artist threw them away, or because they were otherwise destroyed before being seen by someone other than the artist? Are those not also works of art? Creating art is art.

Is a sublimely practiced tea ceremony not art if the ceremony is performed alone? In dance, the dancer choreographs then practices until it is perfected. Many early repititions are not art because there are errors and rough spots. Eventually the dancer turns choreography into art. This happens before the dance is performed in front of an audience, and does require public performance to be art.

For most of us, climbing is mostly craft. For a gifted few, their movements transcend craft almost every time they touch rock. But even for us duffers, there are experiences that transcend the mere practice of our craft. For me an onsight of a hard route sometimes approaches art. When my body knows what to do almost without thinking, when I am glued to the rock because every tiny hold is in the right place and feels good, and each movement naturally leads to the next, I transcend craft and become an artist for a few moments.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
Couple of your points John can be exemplified by two things we've seen:

Performance art, as mentioned by Jay.

Those Tibetan votive sand paintings which are created and then wiped away (to among other things, such as make a consecrated effort at improving our karma, pay homage to the transitory nature of creation?)
rbolton

Social climber
The home for...
Aug 10, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
It sure ain't art when I'm doing it.
But it is fun.
Tahoe climber

climber
Texas to Tahoe
Aug 10, 2006 - 06:25pm PT
I have definitely watched some very smooth climbing in my day that inspired me enough to call it art.
For instance, seeing a much stronger climber smoothly negotiate a crux that I'd been unskillfully flailing on for a while is a beautiful experience.
Sometimes I feel like I'm climbing similarly - with an artful smoothness and mastery that reminds me of the feeling I get when staring at a beautiful painting or sculpture.

I guess in the end, for me, climbing is art when it gives that awed "aha!" feeling - regardless of who's doing the climbing.

-Aaron
goatboy smellz

climber
up a peak without a paddle
Aug 10, 2006 - 07:09pm PT
The Navajo and Apache were also involved with sand paintings... Interesting, similar ideas were happening on opposite sides of the globe at the same time.

goatboy smellz

climber
up a peak without a paddle
Aug 10, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
The Ute's believe that Pikes Peak arose to save them from a great flood. Wachagga tribe describe Mt Kilimanjaro grew to save them from a massive flood.

Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 10, 2006 - 07:53pm PT

"I write for myself, and others," Gertrude Stein?


If a climber climbs alone in a forest is there art? Sure, like Dingus' footnote. If it is necesary to have an oberver to be art thats covered since there is always at least one.
BUT watching that climb by an outsider is a yet seperate experience.

It's Heisenberg meets Heraclitus.

"You could not step twice into the same river; for other waters are ever flowing on to you." -Heraclitus
+
"The more precisely
the POSITION is determined,
the less precisely
the MOMENTUM is known" Heisenberg (which I always loosely interpret as the act of observation affects what is seen, among other things, -go easy on me, Ed)

= Virtually all art and certainly climbing, imo, is unrepeatable and different to all observers/participants.


Just one of the reasons I keep coming back to some version of the same river.


Sand paintings by Tibetans, Navahoes, apaches =those wacky athabaskans are a lively bunch.
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Aug 10, 2006 - 08:09pm PT
LEB if you ever get a chance to watch JB or WB move over stone it would make any ballet you've ever seen look clumsy and contrived. It is poetry in motion. Most of the rest of us huff and arghh are way up the stone, but there are some out there that are Artists.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 10, 2006 - 08:11pm PT
yeah, many of us Are practioners of the 'baser arts'.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 10, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
Being in the right place at the right time to contribute to three aesthetic aid climbs, ZM, Aurora, and the Big Chill, and with these specifically mentioned in the endless and exasperating WOS threads, I have to chime in on the wall route creation as an object d'art.

A first ascent experience is a one and only moment of vision, interpretation and necessity. The visionary who sees the line, and the climbers who put out the effort to unlock the moves to climb that section of stone are climbing artists. On the finer scale of the sharp end the leader is sculpting. The moment the hammer is swung all subsequent ascentionists are sculpting. The metric of artistry is a matter of skill and taste. The creators of the climb have to let go of the routes future, everyones experience will be different, and unless climbers are going hammerless, they are going as sculptors. Leave as little as possible trace has to be the ethic of admission to the challenging terrain we painted on.

By community consensus ZM Aurora, and the Big Chill were bold logical lines tastefully done, and remain classics. The experience of subsequent ascents is key, and a statement to the quality of the art. And after the 20year anniversary ascent of ZM, 99,9 percent with the hammer in the bottom of the bag, it did not feel like a pegboard of enhancement, and the rickety flakes are still rickety flakes. So people have not ruined the route.

WOS was a vision that was not understood at the time, just by virtue of the line chosen. Like art critics none of us understood the vision of aid climbing up that slab. Like an opera in Europe, outside the norm, tomatoes were thrown. (if only!) The hooligans responsible were not the moral representatives of the community of which I was a part back then.

Heres Sean Plunkett with a palette of steel, in action on the Big Chill
Griff

Social climber
Felton, PA
Aug 10, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
I think for climbing to be considered art you have to pull your pants down. All "good" art involves nudity.
scuffy b

climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
Aug 10, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
See my work at the Starving Artists' Sale.
Really, there are times when I feel like an artist.
When I was undergoing serious dance instruction I was
astounded by the athleticism required, and at the
same time began appreciating the aesthetic of my
climbing in a new light. For a while they seemed
awfully similar.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 10, 2006 - 09:02pm PT
There is a HUGE difference between craft and art, and the artist knows that difference.
Ksolem

Trad climber
LA, Ca
Aug 10, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
From years of working as a mastering engineer in music, which is largely a craft and occasionally an art, I can say that the line between the two is not clear and often determined by the quality of the effort.
phoolish

Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
Aug 10, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
Climbing can certainly be art. Watching a climber can be like watching a dancer, c.f. Bandaloop.

However, a climb itself? No. Art is something you must create. Climbs are already there. No one creates a route, he only climbs what nature has built.
scuffy b

climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
Aug 10, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
I most always consider myself a craftsman and am pleased
with that label. Most always.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
Phoolish, a script can't be art?
WBraun

climber
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:44pm PT
Maysho

Nice post Peter ...........
E.C. Joe

climber
Lafayette
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:51pm PT
You guys are way off on this...Climbing is Religion! Ha!
phoolish

Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
Aug 10, 2006 - 10:58pm PT
Jaybro, a script most certainly can be art. However, art is necessarily of human creation. Rock routes are (barring chipping) not man-made.
Ksolem

Trad climber
LA, Ca
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:09pm PT
You can argue all you want that because the rock is already there that the climb is not art, I will counter that the climb can be artfully done (or less than so.)

Cannot art be interpretive in nature?

How about Olivier Messiaen's music based on bird calls? In a real sense the music was already there. His work was interpretive. Like a climb. Another composer would use the same material differently.
Jacob

Trad climber
yucky valley
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
its only art if a woman is climbing
phoolish

Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
The piece of ground a dancer dances upon is not art. The dance is.

The Orb at rocktown is beautiful, but it isn't art. Someone climbing it with skill and grace certainly is.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
Good point, phool. But, what about non (hu)Man defined? or, does art have to have the the hand of (hu)mankind?
Climbing spiderline is art(as I see it). Is the line not a work of art, just because none of us made it? Maybe it's just 'media.'
( I have no answers just hacking the idea around)
OR does it get back to the observation/ experience thing? Can the line be not art, though every ascent is? Is the track, since iit was selected, part of the vision, the art, even art itself?
Ksolem

Trad climber
LA, Ca
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
"..The piece of ground a dancer dances upon is not art.."

Of course not. The dance floor is not the medium. Space and time and, if used, music provide the medium.

To equate the floor beneath the dancer to the rock we climb on is to compare the paper on which a book is written to the words from which it is composed.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:00am PT
yes Ksolem.

and the architectural wonders are works by the great master as it were,
but not climbing art per se,
so it is a collusion of art forms when practicing the art of climbing upon them.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:05am PT
I'm continually ogling the lines and appreciating them as brushstroke components of the marvelous compositions, which are the walls and towers themselves.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:22am PT
What is the nature of the little corkscrew tower that has a climb on it known as 'Ancient Art'?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:24am PT
is that a koan?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:25am PT
if knott,
it's a cone, and a twisted one at that.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:41am PT
Phoolish, there are ways besides chipping of sculpting rock, and sculpture IS art.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 11, 2006 - 08:27am PT
Sometimes sculpture is craft adn sometimes sculpture is art.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 11, 2006 - 10:45am PT
Routes that do not need physical alteration by man to be climbed are natural, not man made.

They are however discovered by man, or envisioned by man.
Phantom Fugitive

Trad climber
Misery
Aug 11, 2006 - 10:54am PT
Wrote this essay for Rock & Ice- some of it is seen in the recent issue.

Seems like it fits in this conversation...Climbing is art. Sometimes it's horrendous, flailing, and cussing. Other times it's glorious, inspirational, and fulfilling. I usually fall somewhere in between.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

One of the principles I learned as an art student was that “there are no straight lines to be found in nature.” I’ve spent the last twelve years proving that theory false—by ascending nature’s most perfectly cleaved fissures. I didn’t last long in art school. Feeling more drawn to lines on the rock, than those in a classroom, I closed my eyes and threw a dart at a map. It hit Boulder, Colorado, so my journey started there. I’ve been throwing darts ever since, but now with my eyes wide open.

Outside the university studio, lines appeared everywhere to me. Leading upwards in to the sky, they converged with dark corners, trailed off into blank faces and ended abruptly at barren summits. Via topographic maps of alpine regions, I found a world perpendicular to that of my childhood in the mountain-deprived Midwest. These steep contours spoke in a language understood not by word or number, but by soul. Their lines were an invitation. As I traced my finger along the ones closest together I discovered a new passion–the untouched, unclimbed straight line. Each remembered form of it intersected in my mind and bled onto the canvas.

I seek seamlessness within my artistic expressions—from map to canvas, canvas to trailhead, trailhead to summit, summit to soul, and back again. Why must “art” be constrained to the second and third dimensions? Climbing provides the outlet to express on a fourth dimension: movement.

As climbers effortlessly flow up a desert tower, the juxtaposition of their forms and nature’s geometry creates an expressive experience that is art in itself—even without the recorded image. My motivation is not to capture this movement, but the movement within. What is happening inside as we pursue these vertical passions? Personal metaphors and symbolic imagery speak more to me than a more literal expression.

But why art? Why climbing? For the same reason I chose to paint with ochre yellow today instead of phthalo blue: Intuition. Something they can’t teach in school. I’ve learned not to fight it.
scuffy b

climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
Aug 11, 2006 - 11:16am PT
You come to an unfamiliar cliff, and you see one climber start
up a route. You say to yourself "that dude is really really
strong."
If you had been there earlier and seen his partner on the same
line, you would have said "that is a beautiful climb.
I would love to climb that line."
Is this a difference between an artist and a craftsman?
Between a Master and an undistinguished artist?
There were plenty of people who thought that Picasso's works
were not Art.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
Tell that to the critters. ;-)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
Lots of fun stuff here,
Highlights for me include, but not limited to:
Maysho's wall piece
Phantom's rumination
phoolish

Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:21pm PT
Dingus,

Maybe each individual ascent is a manmade thing, but the route itself is there whether a person is on it or not. If you see a line up a cliff and have no idea whether it's been climbed before, is it a route yet?

Art is a skilled creation. Hell, that's what the word means, etymologically speaking. Climbing is skilled, but in climbing a route, you're not creating anything, you're just using what's already there.

If I walk across a field, am I creating something?
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:40pm PT
There's plenty of art in climbing a route, first ascent or last, if the climber consciously uses skill and creative imagination in doing it. The act of climbing, like dance, is art if performed with such skill and beauty that it transcends craft. Most of us are not accomplished artists.

As for the route itself being an artistic creation, I think it can be because there are always choices to make along the way that are entirely up to the climber, and not nature. Some route finders are more skilled than others at putting the puzzle together. Read Peter's post about ZM, Aurora, and Big Chill.

Think about Ansel Adams. He took pictures of things that were already there. His photos are not art? There was at one time a debate about that: How can it be art if you're just photgraphing something, and not interpreting it in a painting, or a sculpture?

Compare your photos of Half Dome with the ones Ansel Adams took and I think you will agree that there's a great deal more art in his photos than in yours.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Dec 4, 2007 - 03:39am PT
Climbing and art go hand in hand.....

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Dec 4, 2007 - 03:48am PT
hey there tarbuster and all....awwwwwwwwwwwwww, the art of humans and nature, in unison ....... say, then, i reckon it is...

thanks for this great fun with loads of participants with so many feelings on this matter...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 4, 2007 - 08:20am PT
Why is she pointing at his package?

THATS pornography!
TradIsGood

Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
Dec 4, 2007 - 08:28am PT
Beta! She is showing him the next foot hold.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2007 - 11:30am PT
The concept of "Art" usually pisses me off, as it is often used to bolster people's egos and elevate their creations and values as "Art" and denigrate somebody else's as "Not Art"

I call BS. We're all human beings. We all express ourselves. We are all artists. It's a spectrum. Some people are more expressive, in touch with themselves (or their angst), than others.

BUt I think Art just means expression. Everything is is just subcategories.

The philosopher Krishnamurti once said that everything is beautiful as it is but we're so numb that we need art to amplify beauty so we can see it. Some truth in that I think

Trying to see the beauty in all everywhere

PEace

Karl

atchafalaya

climber
California
Dec 4, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
* When is Climbing Considered Art?*

When you get older, and cant climb as hard as you used to. Or when your viewing it, or remembering it, as opposed to doing it.

If you have ever read old copies of Summit or Ascent, there was a period prior to climbing photography taking hold, where folks blew so much hot air about climbs, that you forgot all they were doing was climbing. The transmogrification of a physical activity into a pretentious, esoteric editorial (kind of like this post).

Please help keep climbing from becoming art.
ec

climber
ca
Dec 4, 2007 - 12:55pm PT
"Route ARE created." -DMT

'Just passing thru...

Nature's Art with a little of my own paint...

divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 4, 2007 - 04:32pm PT
The best climbers certainly can take it to the level of being an art. The rest of us are just starving artists.
BadInfluence

Mountain climber
Dak side
Dec 4, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
when you see someone climbing 5.11 or harder and they make it look like 5.3
Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
Dec 5, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
Whenever JB's at it...
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Dec 5, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
"If I can do it, it isn't art."--anonymous.


I guess what I do isn't art then, which is okay because the creator of stone is the artist--we climbers are merely presenters of the art.
wack-N-dangle

Gym climber
the ground up
Dec 6, 2007 - 12:08am PT
There are many arts, but one way. Art is for anyone who chooses it.
When I know this, I believe I will begin to understand the way.

Bouldering, alpinism, ice, rock, sport, trad, soloing, etc. all arts? Climbing part of the way? Maybe after being practiced for years by artists?


Living in the dirt, eating other's leftovers, reducing your needs to a minimum, and thriving, ART!
wack-N-dangle

Gym climber
the ground up
Dec 6, 2007 - 12:22am PT
oops, forgot to add aid.
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Dec 6, 2007 - 01:28am PT
Roy,
Have you read "Define A Work of Art?"

Pat
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Dec 6, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
This sort of thing is what real artists call shi-shi-fru-fru-artsy-fartsy talk.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
It is that Dirt.

No Pat, I have not read "Define a Work of Art"; I'll add the title to my reading list: cheers!
Who is the author?

Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Dec 6, 2007 - 03:09pm PT
Roy, "Define A Work of Art" is a chapter of my book "Everything That Matters." For some reason I thought you had that book and might have read it. I spend quite a bit of time talking about art and climbing. The subject has been on my mind for many years, and I think the chapter really says all the important things I feel about it. Let me know if I should send off a copy (I'm not hitting you up for a sale).
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2007 - 11:08pm PT
Excellent!
I do have the book Pat, because you kindly tossed it in with a purchase of The History of Free Climbing in America.

Clearly I have not yet read it; I'll go straight to that chapter for my nightime read.

Speaking of art, made any more music?
I've now enjoyed 2 of your CD's, the second of which is "Recluse".
survival

Big Wall climber
arlington, va
Dec 7, 2007 - 12:05am PT
I smile when I read y'alls stuff.

Climbing = Art
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2007 - 02:24am PT
Although a single line does little justice to a synopsis, here's a couple lines which you wrote in your piece Pat, "Define A Work Of Art", from "Everything That Matters -remembering rockclimbing":

"Empathy is to feel the life in things, to project ourselves into, and identify ourselves with, objects either animate or inanimate or both, to draw joy and love from mysterious aspects of existence that have no validity or value to an empirical world. For the mystic, this is the true meaning of being aware." -Ament

I enjoyed the full piece and those lines, in particular, reached me.

To drape oneself into the landscape, to listen to it and respond to it, rather than to impose ourselves upon it -that to me approaches artful living on the stone, or anywhere else for that matter.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
If climbing is art

It's an Andy Warhol
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Dec 8, 2007 - 12:07am PT
Roy,
You asked about the music. I'm finishing a two-CD set, just working on the last piece with a woman who is doing a duet with me on one of them, and am putting together also a third CD, a kind of "best of," with about 16 songs that everyone especially likes. I've written and recorded almost 500 songs in the last two and a half years... That was tough to sort out favorites. I'll keep you posted.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2007 - 11:02am PT
Looking forward to it Pat.


Peter makes, & Derek made performance art.



They'd both probably call hooey, but that's their heroic modesty keeping ego in check.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Dec 8, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
I'd have to agree with Watusi. If I have EVER seen art in climbing, it was watching Bachar climb when he was in his prime. There are other climbers that have emulated him, but he was always better at it than anyone else.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2007 - 05:22pm PT
I'll tip my hat to that notion Jan.
Bachar's art has been an inspiration to so many of us.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Dec 8, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
Roy, your boy Skip used to do it pretty damn well too. And barefoot!!!! And of course Waugh is maybe second best of the locals I grew up watching.

The other person whose climbing I thought was extremely artful was Patrick Edlinger! Boy was he beautiful to watch.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2007 - 11:59pm PT
Thanks Allister!

Yes Jan, Skip Guerin: both Moffat & Kauk have hoisted his banner on high.

Edlinger: Sibley was involved in a film shoot out here in the wild west and Patrick, while waiting for a camera move, was cruising up and down a large portion of the Sphinx Crack, on lead, laybacking the crack's edge, just to stay occupied...
wack-N-dangle

Gym climber
the ground up
Dec 9, 2007 - 12:17am PT
A compliment from the unqualified doesn't mean as much, but I would call Bachar a modern master. What I really admired was when he typed about those who climbed before him (in the 20's, 30's, and 40's). Quite humbling.
Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
Dec 9, 2007 - 01:10am PT
Yeah really cool thread Roy...
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Sep 25, 2010 - 08:46am PT
bumping this because we've wandered so far ... let's go back.

there's a lot of thoughtfullness to admire and dwell upon in this thread.
i favor the succinct remark by jacob that "it's only art if a woman is climbing."

that's suitably wry, the size of a worry stone i can pocket, and could be half right.

in the case of climberettes, if i can't look away,
then it's artistry enough for me
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 25, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
Some climbing certainly rises to the level of performance art which is a widely accepted form of artistic expression. The extent of personal creative intent that goes into a performance, the staging, if you will, seems to be the crux of the biscuit.

The dancefloor is on edge...and so are the climbers!
drunkenmaster

Social climber
santa rosa
Sep 25, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
martial arts
EdBannister

Mountain climber
CA
Sep 27, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
There was once a store in Chatsworth called Art of Climbing.....

when done well it can be art.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 27, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
When I do it,


































it definitely


































isn't
































ART







Fuzzywuzzy

climber
suspendedhappynation
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:41am PT
Hitchy once told me that if you care - it's art.
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