Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 10, 2006 - 07:28am PT
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When is climbing considered art?
John Bachar once quoted some artistic maxim:
“If it is art, it is not for everyone and if it is for everyone, it is not art”.
Buried deep in those WOS threads was a statement by Jaybro and pointed to the WOS guys, not at all meant as damaging, but it was probing: he said, to paraphrase,
“An artist does not explain her work, are you guys artists?”
(this is not BTW, meant as an extension of the WOS threads).
I would suggest that rules in climbing plus the movement skills, are the basis for implementing the craft. And if you are familiar with one of the definitions that has been around for a long time about art, it is that there is a distinction between craft and art. And it goes something like, first, you master your craft, you are technician. At some point, you turn a corner and begin to implement an intuitive synthesis. Statements are made, and quite often not understood, except by the few who may or may not be deeply engaged in a particular movement.
So, I submit there is this highly codified (craft) and somewhat flexible form of expression (art), which follows and does evolve in terms of our climbing.
For me, there is a personal sense of satisfaction I get from implementing expression within "constraints",
those constraints being:
1) My intuitive and physical limitations.
2) A few "rules" imposed perhaps arbitraily by the "artistic" community, as to the form of the craft.
3) The structural rigor imposed by the natural environment, ie, "the canvas".
Anybody?
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Dingus Milktoast
climber
NorCal
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:50am PT
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I have long felt the basis of art is emotion.An artist conveys emotion, via the word, canvas, block of stone, guitar, etc. In my simplified, uneducated terms (I've never studied art), an artist shows something of herself in all her work.
And the essence of art is NOT the creation of the artistic piece... its the conveyence of it, its the 'showing' of it.
When someone pours their artistic being into a work, and then (gasp!) showing it to someone, they are revealing a fundamental part of themselves for others to see and comment upon.
And of course the artist often shows more of herself than she might guess.
The essence of art is getting up in front of other people and saying, "Behold, this is who I am, this is a part of my art."
An artist is willing to bare her soul's ass to the world.
To my way of thinking, any craft can transcend the technical into art when the craftsman starts making personal statements with her work and then holding them up for the world to see.
A piece of furniture can be art, there is no doubt in my mind. And if a piece of furniture can transcend the craft, then so too can a climb.
You used Bachar. I don't know the man other than stalking him in the Camp 4 parking lot one day. But clearly with some of his climbs 'statements were made.' Johnny Rock, Bachar Yerian, these climbs were done in part (I don't mean to put words in Bachar's mouth, just repeating things I've read is all) to make a statement about his craft and the spirit of climbing. And then, he TOLD others about them.
When you look at a painting, or read a well crafted story or poem, or study a sculpture, you are in effect searching for the emotion the artist poured into her creation. From my perspective, rarely does the recipient "get" exactly what the artist thought she was or wished to convey. Part is the the viewer superimposing his own emotions over the artists, part is the artists ability to actually convey that emotion and part is just human pattern recognition software doing its thing... making connections where none were thought to exist.
So Billy Joe Bob is a hard assed climber. He's paid his dues. He comes-a-stalkin a test piece established by a hero and a god, someone he respects. And by god he fires it. Enroute, he will surely come to admire the skill of the person what put that route up. He might marvel at the purposeful 'run for the border' runnouts, or what have you.
Billy Joe Bob will never feel what the FA felt. His emotions will be his own. But through awareness and his own dedication to understanding the craft, he comes to understand the deep emotional commitment necessary to create routes like that.
A climber can obsess with a route, pour her climbing soul into it; Harding on the Nose, Salathe on the Lost Arrow, Robbins on Salathe, Bachar on BY. The resulting climb clearly reveals much about the protagonists; their philosophies, their commitment and skill and their emotions. But only to those who can 'read' the route!
There is much art that is beyond me. I don't understand it enough to get the nuances. I suspect a lot of the climbing art is like that. While I can stand from afar and admire the line of Bachar Yerian, I cannot truly sample the art without visiting the climb itself.
The climbing art is best observed through participation.
DMT
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:53am PT
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I am a little hesitant to respond since the definition of 'art' supports whole PhD departments in big universities. But...like, what is the alternative.
As a starting point, if we define art as an expression that moves someone else, then the there are only a few things in climbing that can be considered.
Can the linking of the features--excluding the rock itself--of a climb be considered art? I cannot think of any examples off hand, where the rock features were raised to 'art' on the basis of the climber's moves across them.
Can the movement of a climber over rock be considered art? I would say it can be just like dance--art--to me.
Can the concept of a style of climbing be art? Trickier, in my opinion. Sort of like performance art. Bachar's style of climbing taken in total might qualify, as would most extreme climbers who have mastered a cutting edge of style.
160+ words—long enough.
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goatboy smellz
climber
up a peak without a paddle
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:54am PT
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Duchamp once said, and I'm paraphrasing...
"An artist creates half the work the other half is brought by the viewer"
Anything that inspires... in my eyes is considered art.
oobbala schmoobala ooga booga boogly booo....
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:56am PT
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When one finishes a climb/FA, shakes off the sweat and tears, packs up the gear, walks off down the approach, stops, then looks back at the route with a grin on their face and smile in their heart and says, "Thanks"!.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 08:00am PT
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Nice start.
To cut to it personaly,
For me there are movement skills which are mastered (craft).
There is a highly nuanced internal experience, much like dance, which feels to me like art.
At the least, it is a highly refined form of good kicks!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 10, 2006 - 08:09am PT
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Once upon a time in Texas, a bunch of climbers were swinging around in one of hueco's jug haul roof Caves (the name escapes me today in my dotterage)
A reiterment age couple, replete in bermudas, fishing hats, cameras, etc walked up and peered in.
"any Rock art in there?"the man asked hopefully.
I scanned for 'glyphs,and seeing none said,
"Nah, just performence art."
The couple squated down for a better look,
"Strenuous performences art!" one of them said with a laugh.
"good luck." they smiled and wandered off.
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goatboy smellz
climber
up a peak without a paddle
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Aug 10, 2006 - 08:14am PT
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HELL YES!!!
If it's not "FUN" why bother? Why start up? Why put body to stone, canvas, film, to anything...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 10, 2006 - 08:23am PT
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I suggest that climbing is a form of poetry, which of course is one of the arts.
(Not a true/false question.)
Anders
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:26am PT
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Is dance art? If it is, does it require viewer to be considered art?
My feeling is yes, and no.
I like climbing best when I feel like I'm dancing.
But having danced my whole life, I know that dancing doesn't always feel like dancing. Maybe at those times, it's bad art or a work in process, but it's still part of an artistic process.
Although I can appreciate the idea of a route as art, the 'real' art in climbing for me happens when someone starts up a route and is gone when the route is over.
Reminds me of one of my favorite route names in the Valley: Ephemeral Clogdance on GPA.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:33am PT
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I am a little hesitant to respond since the definition of 'art' supports whole PhD departments in big universities.
LOL Roger
Good story Jaybro.
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Dingus Milktoast
climber
NorCal
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:35am PT
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"Although I can appreciate the idea of a route as art, the 'real' art in climbing for me happens when someone starts up a route and is gone when the route is over."
I agree with your sentiment, but not the gone when the route is over part.
You can only experience the Mona Lisa in one place. You can only experience a given route in one place, on the route. But the experiences, the impressions, you take those with you?
To my way of thinking, art isn't art unless there is someone to receive it. Its the conveyence that creates the art. Anyway, that's how I view it.
A friend of mine said he was hiking in the Sierra backcountry and discovered a 'rock art' rendition of a family looking up at a peak or a cool tree or something. Don't remember the details well. But he was struck by it and the way he described it, very cool.
I've often wondered about that artist who created that rock family out of pebbles. She left a gift back there and my friend was lucky enough to receive it. An anonymous gift from an anonymous artist deep in the wilderness... behold, this is who I am.
I want to go visit that family and ponder the person who created them. Just as I want to go experience some climbs.
Cheers
DMT
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:50am PT
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route setting with plastic is an artform, imho. It's like creating the art of motion.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:56am PT
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An important part of my statement was "for me". I also said that I appreciate the route as art, but I don't connect with memories of routes and details of the rock as tightly as many. It's a matter that's independent of what 'should' be, and simply is about what naturally resonates within me. And I am first a dancer.
Once a dance has been done, you can think about it, remember it, take away what you learned, etc, but you can't get that precise moment back.
Others can visit your route, look at your pictures, hear your stories, and try to envision what it was, but the best parts of that moment, IMO, are gone, and a new one is in its place for the latercomers to fill with their own experience...even when I happen to be the latercomer or looker-back on my own experience. I guess I have a poor memory for intense feeling.
Dance companies all over the world will do Balanchine's Swan Lake, and everyone involved with probably be filled with a sense of the history of the work, including those who have danced it before them. Nonetheless, it is a new work every time it gets done.
I'm certainly don't mean to come off as though I'm poo-pooing the idea of pulling art out of history.
But in the continuum of transcendental experiences, reading about Balanchine is pretty academic. Watching a master dance his works can be wonderful. Trying to stomp through the movements myself is better yet. But, for me, the best of all is to crank up the tunes in my head in an open and empty space and just start dancing for the pure joy of it all by myself.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:01am PT
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Climbing is Vogon poetry-- great for the writer, excruciating for the reader.
Some art is for everyone, art that touches everyone is at its most powerful.
It takes practice to be good at either.
Oh your question, Tar-baby. Climbing is considered art when you consider it as such.
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Dingus Milktoast
climber
NorCal
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:06am PT
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Cool thoughts.
"Watching a master dance his works can be wonderful."
I place the emphasis on the 'watching' is all, the conveyence (even if its just the other dancers). If that master dances alone in a room with no observers, I think of that as craft, not art.
And of course the 'for me' is explicit, implicit, whatever. I get it. Art is inherently 'for me.' The reception is just as unique to each individual as are the dance steps done by each company.
Cheers
DMT
post edit - upon reflection, one can certainly observe one's own art, be thyne own observer. So I take it back... the master (or the Melissa) dancing alone in a room can be art too... doing it for your own joy. right on.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:11am PT
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"If that master dances alone in a room with no observers, I think of that as craft, not art.
And of course the 'for me' is explicit, implicit, whatever. I get it. Art is inherently 'for me.' The reception is just as unique to each individual as are the dance steps done by each company."
Although I totally agree w/ your last statment...that even watching someone else is a highly individual experience...It seems contradictory to me to say that you need an audience to elevate craft to art. Perhaps I misunderstand?
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Dingus Milktoast
climber
NorCal
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:21am PT
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Its my belief that art is an conveyence of emotion, at its core. Without the conveyence, there is no art. Just an idea I've been toying with for a long long time.
I believe math is the language of physical reality, of science.
I believe art is the language of emotions, of humanity.
Neither means much at all if no one is there to 'listen.'
One can certainly listen to oneself, no doubt about it though.
But I'm reasonably certain that the emotion part of art has to be there and someone has to *get it* (even if its just the artist).
Cheers
DMT
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Piton Ron
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:26am PT
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Its not "when", it simply IS.
That's not to say that it has to be good.
For me climbing can be both performance art and creative art.
I've put up routes with minimalist sculpting that makes a statement about human interaction with nature. (And don't jump down my throat as my intent is to minimalize SUBSEQUENT human impact, and that too is a statement.)
But art need not be appreciated or even seen (or heard) to BE art.
I've soloed routes that have never been repeated, nor are even known.
Call it art awaiting discovery.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 10:58am PT
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hey this is fun.
a bit Off Topic:
DMT!
that back country stone sculpture of the family; i totally forgot to ask Phil Bircheff (a sculptor/climber) if he knew anything about that when i met him recently.
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