Preserve Bolts at Christmas Tree Pass

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Messages 41 - 54 of total 54 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Manny

Social climber
tempe
Mar 20, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Please write and stop this potentially devastating precedent. Takes a few seconds. Andrew and Dick put up some really challenging routes. I put a few up also. I did a couple of cracks and faces.

Grid bolting is not an issue. Removing bolts arbitrarily in our public lands is a bad thing. Let's stop it. Send your comments today:

http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 20, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
Can't say I cared much for the [granular] rock when George and Joanne took me, and I wouldn't bother with Red Rock so near (I'm more a sandstone guy), but hell, those are some sphincter-puckering leads. Kudos. If sport climbers ever took a shine to the place you'd have to be back here asking folks to stop retro-infilling all those routes.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 20, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Have any bolts actually been removed so far or are we still in the planning stage?

CTP is a perfect test case area for those sorry land managers that don't care for us as a user group. No real established local climbing or voting population to cause problems so that these clowns aren't risking much.

Once bolts are actually being removed then some well organized civil disobedience is wholly in order and will be organized very publicly so that the individuals involved will ultimately have to explain themselves in front of someone in power like my good friend Colorado Senator Mark Udall who can see that they are demoted or at least bridled.

I would love to believe that these comments gathered through the normal mechanisms used to dissipate electoral anger are being read and considered but I really doubt it will amount to much.

Having said that, comment away folks and wait to see what comes of it because you never know...

I was involved in the fixed anchors in wilderness discussion quite a while ago and these folks gamed us real well with alarmist, lawyer driven policy in the hopes that we would help them with their funding problems as a very vocal user group. This time the gloves are off if they see fit to spent precious resources actually pulling bolts to diminish our access and options.

A couple of media folks and some bullhorns and I do believe we could take care of this situation directly should these public servants choose not to involve us in the policy making as they clearly aren't inclined to now.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 20, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
I went there a few years ago when Ron put together an event with Layton Kor. Didn't find any climbing worth going back for....did I miss something?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 20, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
For me the issue was having to wipe my shoe on the opposite shin pretty much every single move to remove the ballbearing-like crystals that the rock continuously sheds. The fact that several meters of those crystals constitutes the 'soil' in the area kind of said it all to me.

But people do get their fascinations and obsessions - I've certainly been so afflicted from time-to-time - but couldn't quite 'get it' in this case even though, as I said, it's some ballsy climbing. I just [personally] didn't find it to be particularly enjoyable climbing irrespective of the difficulty / challenge.

Given the locale, not sure why this area was picked for de-bolting versus any other - how often does the place get visited by anyone of any user group at all?



R.B.

Trad climber
47N 122W
Mar 20, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
I remember climbing there in the early '80's with Tim Toula climbing the crunchy oatmealy 5.10 face climbs in his "Five Tennies." Even though it isn't a "five star" destination, it is worth visiting at least once in your lifetime.

I sent a comment letter to the NPS which basically says:

It is bad public land-use policy to remove existing bolts in established climbing areas where lead climbers would expect to be in place when climbing. If the govt removes the bolt, the govt is potentially liable for a wrongful government action lawsuit. Climbing in this area has probably been happening over 50 years, and this makes it a special historical land use that has protection under Section 106 of NEPA.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 22, 2014 - 12:12am PT
For me the issue was having to wipe my shoe on the opposite shin pretty much every single move to remove the ballbearing-like crystals that the rock continuously sheds. The fact that several meters of those crystals constitutes the 'soil' in the area kind of said it all to me.
If you are willing to walk a little bit farther than you did, the rock quality at Christmas Tree Pass is as good or better than the best quartz monzonite at Joshua Tree National Monument. Be careful. Your next fart might be a wet one.
5.10c in EBs on 1/4" Rawl bolts circa 1978
5.10c in EBs on 1/4" Rawl bolts circa 1978
Credit: andrewsolow

Space Needle 'Lunar Flakes' pitch 4 circa 1977
Space Needle 'Lunar Flakes' pitch 4 circa 1977
Credit: andrewsolow

Space Needle
Space Needle
Credit: andrewsolow

Drill Master Pitch 2 circa 1979
Drill Master Pitch 2 circa 1979
Credit: andrewsolow

Following Drill Master pitch 2 circa 1979
Following Drill Master pitch 2 circa 1979
Credit: andrewsolow

Drill Master pitch 3 circa 1979
Drill Master pitch 3 circa 1979
Credit: andrewsolow

View of Dali Dome and the Space Needle from the top of Trac II circa 1...
View of Dali Dome and the Space Needle from the top of Trac II circa 1978
Credit: andrewsolow
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 22, 2014 - 01:10am PT
how often does the place get visited by anyone of any user group at all?
Not very often. Red Rocks is a lot closer to Las Vegas. Christmas Tree Pass is about 14 miles North West of Laughlin NV.
If you've got a little $$, you can stay at Harrah's in Laughlin for about $40 bucks per night, less if it's mid-week.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 23, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
I'm not certain if the comment period is still open through today, but it is worth a try.

I went there a few years ago when Ron put together an event with Layton Kor. Didn't find any climbing worth going back for....did I miss something?

Jim, I believe the issue which has activists concerned is that the NPS is, once again, proposing legislation to remove climbing protection bolts from public lands. CTP is a forgotten, seldom visited backwater with a handful of routes on sometimes questionable rock. With so many premier areas within just a few hour drive it might hardly be considered a destination area. Still cool though, and worth a visit.

It seems prudent that climbers who enjoy recreating in National Park Service Recreation Areas take just a couple of minutes to make their voices heard.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 23, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
The quality of the climbing and the question whether the NPS should be removing bolts are entirely separate issues. Joshua Tree has the same shite rock and is about 100 miles away.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 23, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Very well said, OTE.

If the NPS takes it upon themselves to start removing bolts at CTP, what place is next? Joshua Tree Wilderness Areas? The Wilderness Area of El Capitan?
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 23, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
CTP is a forgotten, seldom visited backwater with a handful of routes on sometimes questionable rock.
Seldom visited is correct. But, the rock quality on the major formations is as good or better than the best quality rock found at Joshua Tree National Monument. See the pictures posted above in this thread.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 23, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
Point taken, Andrew. The one route I've done there so far was a sweet 100+' fist / handcrack with stellar rock (though a bit sharp for my tender sandstone hands). I would imagine there are some cool routes in the area.

I hope everyone takes a few minutes to make their voice heard.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 24, 2014 - 07:26am PT
I've spent a lot of time wandering around CTP. The terrain is really rough. There's almost never any potable water. The place is full of Mohave Green rattle snakes from mid April thru Mid October (their bite is fatal if not treated within 2 hours). And, the Rangers will bust you if you camp within 1/2 mile of the road.

BUT, you definitely won't have any trouble finding a place to park. You definitely won't have to wait in line for your turn to climb. And, no one will cop an attitude no matter what your climbing ability happens to be.
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