Preserve Bolts at Christmas Tree Pass

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 21 - 40 of total 52 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 13, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
Here is a link to the National Park Service "Director's Order #41: Wilderness Stewardship" in regards to climbing in NPS Wilderness. Sorry I can't figure out how to paste the whole section, see pages 15-16 of the document:

http://www.nps.gov/policy/DOrders/DO-41%28Corr%29.pdf

"The NPS recognizes that climbing is a legitimate and appropriate use of wilderness. However, any climbing use or related activity must be restricted or prohibited when its occurrence, continuation, or expansion would result in unacceptable impacts to wilderness resources or character, or interfere significantly with the experience of other park visitors."



I'll be the first to admit that climbers are terrible land stewards. I hope this is changing. In regards to Christmas Tree Pass, with crappy rock quality and the lack of suitable terrain for climbing, along with maybe, maybe two hundred climbers a year this proposal is ludicrous. More importantly, if passed it could set a dangerous precedent.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 13, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
I'll disagree about climbers being bad land stewards. The folks that I have gone out there with over the last dozen years have always left the climbing area cleaner than they found it. Bottles, beer cans, 'dozer parts, and shotgun shells always get carried out. We usually have two garbage bags full of empty bottles and cans. (OK, some of those are ours, but still)

And while there is some crappy rock out there, there's some good rock and some good routes. Routes that would make you wish that they were "bolt-intensive." Its remoteness is its charm. Like what Joshua Tree must have been like in the '50s. No crowds at Dali Dome. Wilkerson Sword is a true classic climb. H&R Block has good rock and good routes.

The first bolt is always a long way off the deck. It's not fun to pop off before getting to it.

It's worth fighting to keep. Although, I think they might make some good points about Spirit Mountain.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 13, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
That's awesome, keep up the litter clean up.

I stand by my generalization that many climbers have been terrible land stewards. Just take a glance at R&I mag or Mountain Project, but I don't want to derail this thread.

Scott B told me Wilkinson's Sword was a classic, hope to do it someday.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Mar 13, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
The Plan’s definition of ‘bolt-intensive face climb’ is inappropriate and should not be used to determine whether the NPS will remove fixed anchors.

(from the access funds page...)

What is the definition? Anyone know? Searched for it, just can't find anything specific. Just 'sport climbs, bolt ladders'.

Is this standard being applied abstractly? Who is allowed to make the determination of what bolt-intensive means?

I have to say I agree with the concept, but perhaps existing routes could/should be grandfathered in if they were established before the wilderness designation.

I won't support any Access Fund campaign that seeks approval for sport climbs and bolt ladders in wilderness areas.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 14, 2014 - 01:12am PT
The term "bolt-intensive face climb" is not well defined in the latest NPS LMNRA rock climbing management plan. Further, there are no bolt intensive multi-pitch face climbs at Christmas Tree Pass that I am aware of.

A lot of the routes we did back in the 1970s have 35' run outs on 5.10c and ground falls clipping into the belay bolts at the top of the first pitch. Credit Dick Richardson (RIP: 5/11/1998) for the extreme danger factor. Let's just say that there are not a lot of extra bolts on the old classic multi-pitch routes at Christmas Tree Pass. We did quite a few 2 or 3 pitch routes, one 4 pitch route and one five pitch route out there during the 1970s - all face climbing and all bolt protected.

Land Managers are supposed to manage the wilderness in a way that both preserves the wilderness and makes it available for safe recreational use by the people, some of whom are rock climbers.

Unfortunately, land managers Greg Jarvis and Jim Holland have a personal bias against rock climbers and rock climbing. They think that it is their job to protect wilderness from human beings, rock climbers in particular. And, they want to do that by constructively banning rock climbing by prohibiting any new bolts and granting themselves broad power to unilaterally decide which bolts need to be removed.

What we do NOT want to do is give NPS // LMNRA land managers who have a personal bias against rock climbing and rock climbers broad unspecified power to decide how many bolts is too many or not enough.


I didn't install the sport climbing bolts. And, if it was up to me, I would remove all bolts placed on rappel on routes that are short enough to top rope.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Mar 14, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Bump for the Friday crowd
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 14, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Comments are due by March 23.

Here is a link to the Access Fund from the OP:


http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 14, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Never been there, but isn't equating grid bolting to that found at Christmas Tree Pass a poor use of brain?

Here's all you need to know about bolting: the general public doesn't give a sh#t. The end.

Send a letter and save the ethics wank, fellas.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 15, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
Here is some more information posted from the Access Fund website (see link above):

The draft Wilderness Management Plan calls for NPS managers to identify concentrations of their dubious interpretation of ‘bolt-intensive face climbs’ in order to decide which routes to erase for the sake of protecting Wilderness character. This interpretation of the national-level NPS policy on wilderness climbing management and fixed anchors, outlined in Director’s Order #41 (DO#41), is potentially damaging to climbing routes located in National Parks nationwide.

This plan does not treat climbers as equals to other Wilderness visitors, does not reflect widely accepted interpretations of DO#41, and is not consistent with how Wilderness climbing is managed by other National Parks across the country. Furthermore, the proposed plan is not based on well-substantiated resource impacts, scientific analysis, or visitor use patterns and impacts. The Access Fund has conducted site visits, met with park planners, and provided a lengthy list of management plans—also used by Department of Interior-managed climbing areas—where managers effectively balance public access with resource protection. See Access Fund's official comment letter for a detailed analysis of the Wilderness Management Plan.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 17, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Bump

Ron, there is no grid bolting at Christmas Tree Pass. And if you don't want you hangers stolen, place buttonheads.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 17, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Meh, no grounds needed for that one to whine.

This move by the management down there is incrimpehrnsubull. As Gary just related, I always heard the ethic there was in line with tuolumne, not org i.e. ground up and spaced. If they can't handle the "crowds" of climbers and "over bolting" there, they'll have to close down Yose, like, yesterday.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Mar 17, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
bump for letters to be sent
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 18, 2014 - 11:57am PT
Bump
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Mar 18, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
There are still a handful of days to comment on this proposal (click link above). I hope that all folks who enjoy recreating and rock climbing on National Park Service land take a few minutes to make their opinion known.

andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 19, 2014 - 05:42am PT
The Access Fund has conducted site visits, met with park planners, and provided a lengthy list of management plans—also used by Department of Interior-managed climbing areas—where managers effectively balance public access with resource protection.

In fact, the Access Fund has bent over backwards trying to reason with LMNRA land mangers Greg Jarvis and Jim Holland (retired?) for more than 5 years without any success whatever. Those two cretins have been obsessing about chopping all of the bolts in the Bridge Canyon Wilderness since 2009. See Erik Murdock's very well written Access Fund comment letter at: Access Fund LMNRA EIS comment letter

Inexplicably, LMNRA Superintendent William K. Dickinson has left Jarvis and Holland in charge of creating a rock climbing management plan for LMNRA since 2009. Jarvis and Holland have been repetitively publishing the same bolt chopping plan for more than five years (with a few very minor revisions). Neither Jarvis nor Holland knows anything about rock climbing. Further, on information and belief, none of the rangers who work for Bill Dickinson are rock climbers. And, no employee of NPS or LMNRA has ever been climbing in the Bridge Canyon Wilderness.

If Bill Dickinson had any brains, he would have just borrowed the ranger who manages rock climbing at Red Rock Canyon, Nevada from the BLM and had him put together a rock climbing management plan for LMNRA. On information and belief, the Red Rocks ranger is a rock climber.

I want to see either Jarvis or Holland lead one of Dick Richardson's run out 5.10c face routes, I mean 35 to 40 feet of continuous 5.10c right off the belay bolts to the first bolt. And, after they fall 70 feet onto a two bolt belay (originally 2 - 1/4" dia x 1 1/8" deep Rawl contraction anchors circa 1978), I want to hear them say that the route (Exhibition) is over-bolted. Almost forgot, the last pitch of Exhibition has no leader protection (easy 5th class IF you don't freak out and go the wrong way).
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 19, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
The Lake Mead National Recreation Area Bolt Choppers are at it again
Please use either one of the links below to post your opposition to the latest NPS bolt CHOPPING plan. Comments are due on or before March 23, 2014.

Access Fund Comment Tool
http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695

Park Service Comment Link
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=317&projectID=16820&documentID=57044
then click on "Comment on Document"
Comment Period: 01/14/2014 - 03/23/2014

The latest CTP bolt chopping plan is a solution in search of a problem.
The land managers from both NPS and LMNRA have been trying to come up with an excuse for chopping all of the bolts at Christmas Tree Pass, NV, aka: Bridge Canyon Wilderness since 2009. There are about 90 established routes at CTP, about 80% bolt protected. And, most of the bolts were placed on the lead using a star drill and a 20 OZ piton hammer.

This bolt chopping B.S. is government at its absolute worst. Loose Cannon Land Managers who hate rock climbers and rock climbing abusing their authority and discretion to punitively, capriciously, arbitrarily and maliciously destroy a climbing area. They should be scourged.

Hopefully, CTP won't be Cave Rock II.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 20, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Deadline is March 23
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 20, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
When they outlaw climbing only outlaws will climb.
Manny

Social climber
tempe
Mar 20, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Please write and stop this potentially devastating precedent. Takes a few seconds. Andrew and Dick put up some really challenging routes. I put a few up also. I did a couple of cracks and faces.

Grid bolting is not an issue. Removing bolts arbitrarily in our public lands is a bad thing. Let's stop it. Send your comments today:

http://www.accessfund.org/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5208267/k.8C84/Action_Center/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5208267&aid=520695
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 20, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
Can't say I cared much for the [granular] rock when George and Joanne took me, and I wouldn't bother with Red Rock so near (I'm more a sandstone guy), but hell, those are some sphincter-puckering leads. Kudos. If sport climbers ever took a shine to the place you'd have to be back here asking folks to stop retro-infilling all those routes.
Messages 21 - 40 of total 52 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews