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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 20, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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All of this "treating with kindness" stuff is what got us here in there first place. The guy had been bothering passing bicyclists somehow. Then the LEOs show up and TRY to talk, spray and taze him into submission. If a TAZER wont work,, well~~~
And Sure they could have jumped him gang style and appear on the evening news with a Rodney King sort of statement to follow. Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont. This is an indicator of a dwindling respect for LEOs in general. And even worse a disrespect of their available force. If im told to co operate by armed LEOS,, im gonna. If its over non sense, the courts can later decide. They guy OBVIOUSLY wasnt going to co operate and somehow managed to thwart a tazer, then jumped into what was no doubt a running vehicle with arms in it. I would have squeezed the trigger too.
Its got nothing to do with "treating with kindness" or dwindling respect for LEO's. You don't know what happened any better than people who are ready to string up the cops. Lack of co-operation or submission is not a reason to escalate and/or kill someone. Maybe he was mentally ill or having a reaction to medication. You don't know. What I do know is that there has to be a better way of dealing with these types of situations instead of someone ending up dead.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 20, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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Same could be said of you Ncclimber. This part you projected in particular which you say, and I quote: "This site forum has enough issues without a delusional and inflammatory asshat like you being in the mix." Not just because you post angry attacks with swear words, which is more than is said of those you attack. Although there is that of course.
Lighten up will you.
NCclimber said: "F*#k you fatty. You were an LEO like a janitor at NASA is astronaut. This site forum has enough issues without a delusional and inflammatory asshat like you being in the mix. The sooner you get shown to the door again, the better this place will be!"
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Feb 20, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
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The only purpose for police is for social control and protection of property. They are not here to serve or protect you. That is a myth. If it were true, this guy would still be alive.
You can't have people disobeying cops and getting off lightly or alive, because that would send the wrong message to the public. Cops are militant and inappropriate for a true civilized society.
The dude was in the middle of the dessert on foot. They should have just left him alone. He wasn't a true threat to anyone other than himself.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 20, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
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Couchmaster said:
...Lighten up will you.
What you said is valid. I deserved that.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 20, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
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Back in the 'good old days' or really more physical times, they would'a whacked him with a billy club in the shins or on the shoulders until he "became cooperative."
Excessive use of force seems self-evident here. Especially since it was lethal force. Of course there will be "an official investigation," and in the end simply swept under the rug with an "official reprimand" or some such BS!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 20, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
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The *official investigation* will declare shooting the dude when he went for the rifle in the police cruiser was the right call.
BUT what will be left out is any criticism of the piss-poor handling of a simple encounter that led up to shooting the dude.
Any high school linebacker could have tackled the guy. Any high school wrestler could have pinned him. Once tackled or pinned, it's a simple matter to apply the cuffs.
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John M
climber
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Feb 20, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
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Any high school linebacker could have tackled the guy. Any high school wrestler could have pinned him. Once tackled or pinned, it's a simple matter to apply the cuffs.
no way. If someone doesn't give in, then it can be very difficult to cuff them. Most people experience a person giving in. You fight them, you beat them, they give up and allow themselves to be handled.
But this guy wasn't giving up. He was pepper sprayed and tazed and still did not give up. That makes for a very different and difficult situation. Add in that cops are now afraid of blood transfer, and can't use choke holds, and it can get very difficult to restrain someone. Especially if that person is strong, is amped up on adrenaline or other drugs, and or is mentally ill.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 20, 2014 - 07:51pm PT
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Back in the 'good old days' or really more physical times, they would'a whacked him with a billy club in the shins or on the shoulders until he "became cooperative."
Excessive use of force seems self-evident here. Especially since it was lethal force. Of course there will be "an official investigation," and in the end simply swept under the rug with an "official reprimand" or some such BS!
Back in the good old days, attempting to billy club someone on PCP would most likely result in the billy club being in the hands of the suspect. Excessive use of force is not self-evident here. It's certainly possible, but not established by a long shot.
John
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 20, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
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John-
My only reference is my experience as a medical X-ray tech for 3 years in the Army. I was frequently called upon to get X-rays of the miscreants after "being subdued." The MPs were pretty good at dealing with this kind of behavior, and woe unto anyone who fuked back at them. Their orders were to NEVER hit anyone in the head, but anywhere else was...kinda OK. The "powers that be" didn't mind a few broken bones along the way. The really prime way they had was beating HARD on the shins. Then step 2 was on the shoulder blades or breaking both collar bones with the nightstick. This was OK since the guy was already on the way to Leavenworth. Yeah, it was kinda' brutal but nobody died in the process.
I'm really against application of lethal force unless the perp has killed someone or attempted to do so...
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 20, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
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I am always amazed how everybody sees situations so differently and I wonder when the police radio transcripts and recordings will be out. Maybe the police cruiser had a dash cam?
Has anybody here been hit with pepper spray or a taser? Just the CS gas that I experienced in the military was quite debilitating. Pepper spray and taser are much worse. No way I'm resisting after that. He must have been out of it in some way.....
It is sad that the man died.
(edit) What's up with the vicious attacks on Fatrad? No wonder he left the site. If my memory serves he left voluntarily. He did not get kicked off.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 20, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
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There is quite a bit of monday morning quarterbacking in this thread. You can't tell anything from that video.
An interesting thing that is worth noticing is how the people who were probably the best witnesses to what happened just drove off after the shooting, through the crime scene no less!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 20, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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Not all that odd if you have spent your fair share of time wandering the hills west of Vegas. A lot of fuked up sh#t going on up in thar.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 20, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
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I wonder if Pacifico was actually Fatrad? The account has been deactivated now....
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Feb 20, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
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I guess unless you were the cop wondering if the perp had the gun off the cruisers rack already and you had time to try and get to him again, maybe, or defend yourself before a rifle barrel is now pointed at you by someone whom appeared to be very driven is hard to say unless you were there.....
It's easy to point fingers from afar, but really folks unless you right in there in the middle of it and wondering if your gonna get shot by some suspect.......
Not a lot of time to make your decision.....
I've worked with a few retired cops and from the stories I've heard when it's time to draw the weapon you've already come to the conclusion the situation warrants it and your own or someone else's life is in jeopardy.
They say it takes one second to act.......
And a second and a half to re-act....
Which one ya gonna choose.....
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 20, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
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This fine upstanding Boulder police officer planned with a coworker to take down this nearly tame trophy elk. Right in the heart of one of Boulder's richest and most densely populated neighborhoods he opened fire and blasted this magnificent creature away.
But we weren't there so we shouldn't judge nor hold those involved accountable. I mean they are officers of the law after all right?.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 20, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
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Rest in peace D’Andre Berghardt.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 20, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
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I understand the points made above, but any incident involving an individual "acting strangely" which results in the suspect's death was obviously "managed poorly." Strictly by definition.
About the LEOs not wanting to "get injured," that's what they are being paid to do, to "go in harm's way," and make sure the public is kept from harm.
When I served in the military, it was pointed out it was our job to take a bullet so a civilian wouldn't. Some of the MPs I knew could have handled this well. The "problem" would have had 2 busted kneecaps and 2 busted clavicles, and be in the jug for a long time but still be alive to complain about how he was treated.
I consider this to be "excessive violence" towards a now dead human.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 21, 2014 - 12:07am PT
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Bureau of Land Management releases statement on Red Rock shooting
Krista Hostetler
Las Vegas, NV (KTNV) -- The Bureau of Land Management has released a statement, regarding the fatal shooting near Red Rock Canyon, involving two of its officers.
20-year-old D'Andre Berghardt was shot and killed last Friday, during an altercation with law enforcement officers from NHP and BLM.
The BLM statement is listed below:
The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) takes seriously the protection of life and property and treats any loss of human life with the utmost concern. In coordination with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, the BLM is investigating the incident and is able to provide at this time the following preliminary information from the ongoing investigation.
On Friday, February 14, 2014, the BLM received several reports from citizens who were concerned for the safety of a man walking along the highly trafficked State Route 159 highway. The citizens reported the man was walking in and out of on-coming traffic. In addition, two cyclists who were bicycling along the highway reported seeing this same man and expressed fear for themselves and the safety of others in the area.
BLM Law Enforcement Officers were dispatched to the scene, and upon arrival made contact with the man later identified as 20-year-old D’Andre Berghardt Jr. BLM officers attempted to speak with Mr. Berghardt in order to ascertain his identity and welfare. At this point, officers ordered Mr. Berghardt out of the roadway.
Mr. Berghardt then began to actively resist the officers. Despite continued attempts to gain compliance through verbal commands and utilizing available secondary measures, including multiple Taser deployments, pepper spray and a baton, the officers were unable to gain compliance. During this time, Mr. Berghardt attempted to gain entry into two occupied privately owned vehicles, which the officers physically tried to prevent for the safety of the public.
A Nevada Highway Patrol Trooper also arrived on the scene and the officers attempted to take Mr. Berghardt into custody after the NHP Trooper deployed his Taser. Mr. Berghardt threatened to shoot the officers and entered the running NHP cruiser where he reached for the trooper’s duty rifle contained in a firearms safety rack. Fearing for their own safety and the safety of the numerous citizens in the immediate vicinity, the two BLM officers engaged Mr. Berghardt with gunfire. Medical personnel were summoned and Mr. Berghardt was pronounced deceased at the scene.
Both BLM law enforcement officers involved have significant law enforcement experience and training, including mandatory annual training. One officer has 17 years of law enforcement experience; the other officer has more than nine years of federal law enforcement experience.
In accordance with standard procedure, this incident is under investigation by the Las Vegas Metro Police Department and the BLM. Until the investigation is complete, the BLM is unable to provide further comments on the details of the shooting or the investigation. The officers have been placed on routine administrative leave.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 21, 2014 - 12:19am PT
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Of course, we won't know until the autopsy, but I also have to suspect something like PCP.
As someone mentioned, if you've never encountered someone on this, it is hard to imagine. They don't understand what you are saying. They don't feel pain. They are as strong as 5 guys, due to extreme adrenaline output.
I remember a fellow brought into the ER I was working in Delano. He was not a particularly big guy, but it took SIXTEEN cops to take him down. They basically laid on top of him.
He was brought in on a paramedic gurney, duck taped to the edges. He had bent the steel pipes of the gurney. I remember a paramedic went to cut the tape so he could be moved off the gurney....he was straining every muscle in his body to try to break free. One of the cops pulled his gun and pointed it AT THE PARAMEDIC. I suggested that cutting the tape might not be a good idea.
How to move him?
I placed an IV, then I paralyzed him with a short term drug that allowed us to move him to the hospital gurney, duck taped him into it, while we bagged him to give him oxygen. AFter assessing that he had no major injuries, we just left him there for a few hours, after which the PCP wore off. The police didn't want him, so he left under his own power. He didn't remember any of it.
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