BLM shoot and kill a man in Red Rocks (with witness video)

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Messages 161 - 180 of total 249 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
You absolutely can. It's not a special gun, it's a beanbag round for a stock 12 gauge.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
Of course, now we know that when there are witness statements that contradict the story that the police give on what happened prior to a shooting, we now have to factor in the CERTAINTY that if the cops think that a person should be executed, that they consider it their job to make that judgement, and carry out the execution ASAP.

Sometimes that means effing up a witnesses life, too. But that is "collateral damage"---javascript:doSave();-to save them, we had to kill them.

Maybe the perp WASN'T in the running, armed police car, but placed there?

Maybe he was tased and pepper sprayed AFTER he was shot?

Opens up all sorts of possibilities......
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
You absolutely can. It's not a special gun, it's a beanbag round for a stock 12 gauge.

oops.. didn't know that. thanks for the heads up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Reno Narcotics officer found dead in a ditch

Four yr old girls body discovered in a drain pipe along the road

Near dead homosexual found beaten severly at summit one

So you start to think about people who are oriented and trained in violence, and think about it every day. Who think that they are the reasonable decider of death. Who typically are conservative to the extreme, and need to protect their community from deviants........

And you start to wonder where the police were actually located the day of those crimes.........
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
What makes you think bean bags are going to work if a taser, pepper spray, and baton didn't? He was unresponsive to pain. Officers don't carry bean bags rounds because tasers, pepper spray, and batons work better. Policy specifically excludes shooting at anything other than center of mass with a firearm. Firearms are used only when deadly force is the intention.

Every alternative proposed so far in this thread either relies on technology that doesn't exist, non deadly methods that are less effective than the ones employed, the suspect being rational which he clearly wasn't, unsafe actions that directly violate well considered and reasonable policy, or time that the officers didn't have.
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
or time that the officers didn't have.

which was why I was bringing up the whole vehicle thing. If the guy didn't get access to that vehicle, then they might have had more time.

and I am not trying to blame the cop. If that was his training, then its a training issue. I am also not saying it was absolutely wrong. I'm trying to discuss it so that I can understand.

Would a bing bag round have knocked him down so that they had more time? Even if he was oblivious to the pain. On the ground seems like a good thing.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
Anecdotal response regarding bean bag rounds: My hospital/work had an incident where pepper spray and multiple tazers didn't do the trick on a psychotic and very dangerous and strong patient. Bean bag rounds worked in that case, and good thing since you will have heard about the Vegas alternative had it gone down in a hospital. That said, f*#k if I know.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT

What makes you think bean bags are going to work if a taser, pepper spray, and baton didn't? He was unresponsive to pain. Officers don't carry bean bags rounds because tasers, pepper spray, and batons work better.

lol OK dude


clearly you and ron are the only guys on the whole internet who have any experience in this area


preach on
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
You can hit harder with a baton than you can with a bean bag round. I'm inclined to think if he was unaffected by the baton bean bags would not have done the trick. Maybe the extra distance they allow would have helped. Regardless, they aren't standard issue because the other intermediate defensive tools used are more effective.

Again, maybe they could have had more time if they approached the situation differently, but they acted reasonably and they don't have the benefit of unlimited time and hindsight. Given the totality of the circumstances, they acted appropriately. Rerun that scenario with 100 different cops and I bet the outcome is the same the vast majority of the time.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
which is a problem
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
Think about it braunini, force is the same on both ends of a shotgun, does the kick of a 12 gauge knock over a large adult male? Bean bag rounds rely on pain, there isn't enough force to physically disable an adult man who has no response to pain.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Disingenuous, franky, the mass of the shotgun absorbs the energy slowing down the "kick" compared to the bag.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
franky and ron -


you are still assuming that you two are the only ones having the background to have an opinion here

my experience with bean bag rounds leads me to strongly disagree with you and i will leave it at that
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
we don't need to open up a physics debate too. The momentum of the gun and bullet will be equal and opposite. The bullet will have more kinetic energy than the gun, but that will not make it significantly better at knocking a person over than the kick of the shotgun. (Because momentum must also be conserved when the bullet strikes it's target, despite the bullet having lots of kinetic energy)

Edit... Tossed in the parenthesis just to clear up the point I was making a bit
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
Well, it kind of is a physics debate if you want people to take you seriously.


While you are thinking about how to answer that, since you are probably a cop, see if you can identify where your use of force continuum model failed in this particular scenario and form your response around that.



BrentA

Gym climber
Roca Rojo
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
No cellphone video = no awareness/debate/supertopo thread

The point I find most interesting in all this.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Understand that the argument you are making is largely immaterial anyway because they almost certainly didn't have bean bag rounds and didn't have time to get them. Also understand that unless the person shot with bean bag rounds in your experience had a diminished pain response, you're comparing apples to oranges.

We can never be sure they wouldn't have helped, but I think it's unlikely and folks are grasping at straws. They tried three normally highly effective intermediate defensive weapons!
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
I understand that you are shifting axis since you don't have any valid responses. Good tactic.


BrentA: Excellent point.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Not a cop, the use of force model worked well in this situation, and I put a sufficient amount of physics in my previous post to explain myself in regards to the bean bag.

I do believe we are beating a dead horse at this point, and without something new, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
Uh oh franky -- your credibility just took a dump with that admission.


Ron: well

keep on keeping on man
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