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WBraun
climber
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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LOL you caught that contradiction too .... ^^^^^
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:47am PT
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There's really NO contradiction here; the GUNS didn't do anything other than serve as the vehicle for idiocy and incompetence...
I had an M14 during my stint in the military, but was never "forced" to kill anyone with it. I've owned literally hundreds of guns in my lifetime, including some of those "awful assault weapons," but so far haven't ever needed to whack somebody just because I carried it.
I was in a personal confrontation about 20 years ago in a parking lot incident with an aggressive "bully" type individual just as I was getting into my pickup. I had a Winchester Defender 12 gauge pump shotgun under the rear seat for exactly this sort of situation. I chose to leave it there and simply confronted the a$$hole face to face with appropriate "fire in my eye." He backed off. So...it's sort of like giving a kid a toy; they can't wait to play with it. That's the BLM Ranger situation, in my viewpoint. Don't get me wrong here; I'm not really one who likes the "fisticuff" lifestyle, but I also have a belt in Tae Kwon Do from many years ago in addition to Army hand-to-hand combat training. I didn't think even threatening lethal force in the situation was worth contemplating...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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You fruit loops don't get it do you. My advocacy for better gun regulation does not mean I am anti gun as you seem to think. Just as my advocacy of Palestinian rights does not make me anti-Jewish. I can say that I agree with a stated opinion without meaning I agree with every opinion of the poster in question. Rodger and I disagree on many points and we agree on many others. His is good man who I appreciate and like. What's the point your comments are trying to make? Or are you just demonstrating that you are no more than a Stupid American?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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The blm rangers probably have more training than the Nevada highway patrol officer in defensive tactics, unless that patrolman had had special training beyond the requirement.
If the subject was just a drunk soldier the situation would have been easier. Bruised shins and even broken collar bones don't necessarily stop a guy like that, But even a drunk soldier knows when the gig is up.
If the suspect doesn't respond to the pain of a baton strike, you want to get away from him, or your going to end up hands on.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 23, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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I have had a few exceptionally unpleasant encounters with the PseudoCops of RR.
They are absolutely power tripping Rambo Wannabees. They demonstrated incompetence on many levels in this incident. Rodger clearly points some of them out. This did not have to be played out this way. And the rush to acceptance of streetside Capital punishment coupled with the instant vilification of the victim by so many ST posters is a bit disgusting. They will say "whoa, wait a minute you don't know what went down, you weren't there". Then in the next sentence say "One less Meth Head".
We need more Andy Griffith and less Barney Fife.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
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Werner? A Stupid American? Bwahahahaha!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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Ron, where did you get that from? S t r e t c h i n g?
I at least never intimated such a stupid notion. One of my best old buddies is the Game Warden in one of the largest most rugged regions in Colorado. Ive been with him on night patrols and YES he needs a gun.
The RRRambos however not so much.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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Giving a bully hall monitor a hat, badge and a gun does not make them competent, reasoned or professional.
It just makes them fashionably dangerous.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
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For one thing, issuing assault rifles to BLM Rangers is itself preposterous. The correct LEO weapon is a SHOTGUN! With correct training, this whole incident might have resulted in the perp/victim/whatthefukever having his foot or even blown feet blown into so much garbage, or even worse. Lethal force is what I'm railing and raving about...given the weaponry the LEOs are given these days, it's about the only option!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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Ohh the Irony Ron The IRONY!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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How many here have ever held a person at gunpoint?
Thought so...
I have several times with trespassers on my ranch during hunting season. Yep. They were armed, too.
My usual line of questioning: "Did you know that you were trespassing on Private land?" Most of the time they'll be very embarrassed and offer apology. If they already have killed an antelope or deer, I ask them if I should call the Game Warden. This is normally without any "flashing" of my pump shotgun, but frequently carrying (holstered) a 9 mm pistol.
I also inform them of my hunting policy which allows hunting upon payment of an access fee ($125 per license, valid for the entirety of the season), and that all they needed do was call at the house. Most of the times it's been a no problem resolution; I accept an apology and away they go, and in the case of having killed an animal--collecting my fees.
One individual chose to argue about the land ownership, ranting that he was on BLM land, and not private. I then confronted him with the "big, bad Winchester" 12 gauge and ordered him to place his rifle on the ground while I called the Sheriff. I made him sit on the ground about 20 feet away from his rifle and called both Game Warden and Sheriff. End of problem.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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Yeah, philo, Mr. Irony.
You're not anti-jewish, you're just anti-Israel.
And you never do anything wrong as long as you can manage to sweep it under the carpet and un-remember it.
pfft
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
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Dude! Now Rodger that totally rocks. And I know that several posters had their heads explode. But that is totally appropriate given the set of circumstances you were involved with.
I think I would have done much the same. I just draw the line on some right to pack weaponry into movie theaters and such.
But I also agree that this use of "lethal force" was questionable.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Feb 23, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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"We need more Andy Griffith and less Barney Fife."
Pretty spot on in this case, elsewhere it's becoming increasingly "More Andy Griffith, less SEAL team 6"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 23, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
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Barney Fife carried a gun and one round of ammo in his shirt pocket.
That might be a bit much for some rangers.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Feb 23, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
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Yes Ron, that is exactly what everyone thinks. Since they used excessive force on this one guy, there should be no backcountry LEOs at all, anywhere. You pretty much nailed it. Good job.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 23, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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Yes, with rubber buckshot.
edit: Ron , you are supposed to add "edit" when you edit and add.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Feb 23, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Shotgun with beanbags
Or a baton to the nuts as previously mentioned
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 23, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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am worried about how readily the LEOs resorted to lethal force. Yes.
Readily... only after multiple taser shots, pepper spray, and batons.
trying to "subdue" an individual without sufficient force available
If multiple taser shots, pepper spray, and batons isn't sufficient force... what do you suggest they try next time? Oh, right, broken knee caps. As pointed out before, there is a huge difference between drunk soldiers and nut jobs who shake off multiple tasers, pepper spray, and baton smacks and still put up a fight.
How many here have ever held a person at gunpoint?
I've been held at gun point, more than once. I never forced the situation(s) and I never got shot. It is called sanity. Going for an officer's gun... no matter WHAT the situation... is not sane and is a direct threat to the life of the officer and everyone in the vicinity. Nobody forced the fool to go for the gun... NOBODY.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 23, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Sigh! I'm making this (honest!) my final comment:
A shotgun can be used in a non-lethal manner a priori to blasting the malefactor in either the face or chest. Granted, the "recipient" of some OOO buckshot will definitely be in some violent pain and discomfort. Prison guards are taught to fire a first blast at the ground in front of the target , depending on the ricochets to wound; second blast at knee level, and only if the target persists--center of mass.
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