BLM shoot and kill a man in Red Rocks (with witness video)

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cali kat

climber
CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 20, 2014 - 02:28am PT

Article link below


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562612/Video-Man-killed-scuffle-authorities.html

Rollover

climber
Gross Vegas
Feb 20, 2014 - 03:26am PT
Seems entering a Highway Patrol car equipped with a
loaded AR gets you shot.
The suspect should have been apprehended soon after
the pepper spray incapacitated him.

Interest turn of events, it seems the situation was
allowed to escalate, and the suspect
failed to heed the officer's command.

Didn't need killing though.
But..
Center-mass is the way in Vegas.
The police will kill, IF they feel threatened.
Define that for me in legal terms please.

Redneck justice?
Maybe
Bad situation for all involved.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:12am PT
Did the Leos plant a bag of popcorn on him to cover their asses"..?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:40am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#345880
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:18am PT
As usual, there isn't enough detail to form an opinion.
Why did someone (a cyclist) feel compelled to call 911?
How many people called?
What did the BLM rangers see when they contacted the guy?
Did the guy have a warrant, or extensive criminal history?
Why did the guy fail to comply with instructions?
The question "why did they not cuff him?" is presented as a failure on the rangers part. It's a good question... Maybe they couldn't? Maybe there was some other reason?
Then another cop from a different outfit shows up, and he doesn't get the guy cuffed?
Now you have someone who has alarmed the public, resisted arrest, assaulted (attempted maybe) multiple officers, and has now gotten in the cop mobile...
And what's in there? Cop stuff... Radio, rifle or shotgun, a marked vehicle that the public recognizes as authority (or at least an agency they want nothing to do with)..
Has the situation escalated from the initial call? I'd say yes...
The play-by-play from the guys sitting in their car is not valid commentary. They are not experts, they are not clairvoyant. The comments of the truck driver who said the cops couldn't get the guy in cuffs were almost a footnote...
I'm not condemning the guy or apologizing for the cops. My issue is with articles like this, which seem to be commonplace these days. They have little fact, lots of opinion, and present speculation as truth. Bad situation, worse reporting.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:25am PT
Well here is one trufitude, the guy is DEAD.
And not from "natural" causes.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:54am PT
+1 Speel.. Hard to tell there. But the guy was BIG and unruly. Pepper sprayed and still going. That is an escalation. At that time im sure the LEOS were wondering exactly what this guy was "on". And when he went for the patrol unit, the decision had been made by him and him alone. He had to ignore many commands by those officers. Hard to judge intent from 300 feet down the roadway. Not to mention that he had been reported by bicyclers to them, and those details unkown as well.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:54am PT
If the victim was mentally ill, then this is a very sad outcome.

If the victim was just an ass, then that's one less as#@&%e for the rest of us to deal with.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:06am PT
BINGO WML...
all in jim

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:47am PT
I thought the goal was to protect and to serve?
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:50am PT
A rap route for Crimson Crysalis probably could have prevented this.
Sad all the way around.
BJ

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:52am PT
This is how you do it

wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Have friends in LE here in Vegas and word is the dude was hopped up on something fierce, PCP perhaps, was tased and pepper sprayed and impervious to it...hence why the two BLM LEO's couldn't wrangle the guy.

Yes, and if your friends in law enforcement say that, it must be true, because cops never lie to protect themselves/each other. (voice oozing with sarcasm)

Protect and serve? Here in Boulder the cops mostly forgot that a long time ago.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
You left this part out, wbw...

'Could it have been handled better? Most likely. But in the end these guys have one goal every day - to go home and see their families.'


Can't blame 'em for that. (Though many here usually would, regardless of the facts.)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
I don't know WML. I have a couple of cop friends, but I have personal experience with Clark County LEOs that allowed me to WIN (not settle) a lawsuit against them for criminal behavior that not one of them was personally held accountable for in terms of actual charges.

It is a double standard that, in the end, does more harm than good.


Going home to their families is a nice Norman Rockwell cliche, but to protect and serve SHOULD be expected.

Not enough info to judge, but it sounds like they should have ganged up and mixed it up with him instead of relying on stand off toys.
How sad, the side of the road with a rolling suitcase, pack and bedroll.

And why is it always "PCP"?
Sheesh, of all people CLIMBERS should know how powerful a drug adrenaline is.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
The cops looked like a bunch of pussies getting pushed around, had to resort to their guns. However, I can't say I'm really opposed to the shooting. You don't f*#k with armed officers - kind of 101.

wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Apogee, everyone that gets tooled also wants to go home and see their families. So what? Cops have the DUTY to protect and serve. In Boulder, too many of these guys and gals are undereducated, misinformed, power-drunk tools that apparently think the desire to get home to their families is an excuse for being d#@&%ebags.

I have very little sympathy for LEOs. I also agree with JLP that messing with them is extremely stupid.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
I don't know what happened in this story -didn't look at he article and don't care to.

Maybe the future will be a better place, using robotic officers. PCP Speedy may be able to fend off 2 humans - or more - but I bet he wouldn't get very far with a robot that can sprout a net from the top of his bot head that then tightens down to encase the perp and himself in a nylon chrysallis until they can haul the catch down to a precinct.

I know it is easy to point to what seems to be a growing number of police quick at the draw but 20 years ago, we didn't have people fried on drugs that make them superman strong and impervious to rational thouhgts, nor the over-medication with drugs that can cause people to have suicidal/violent thoughts as a side effect(YES, listen to the ads on TV touting this sh#t - f*#king SIDE EFFECTS like this and they are pushing he drugs to people who until then probably hadn't thought they had a problem!)

I've only known a few cops in my life, but those ones I met have been decent human beings.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 20, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
" 20 years ago, we didn't have people fried on drugs that make them superman strong and impervious to rational thouhgts.."

Yes we did. The PCP cliche is from at least 20 years ago.

One difference today is that police killings get more press, and are more likely to get filmed, as with Rodney King.
However, like the Rodney King case, the failure to subdue led to the escalation.

Another difference today might be that stories of suicidal killers have received huge press, sometimes encouraging more potential mass murderers, but also encouraging the "Securitization" industy, which includes cops, prisons, Border Patrol, NSA, etc.

another police killing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562476/Woman-calls-justice-police-beat-husband-death-daughter-movie-theater-row.html
GuapoVino

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
Cop shoots at a snake in a tree and kills a 5 year old boy.

http://kfor.com/2013/08/12/officers-record-cleared-after-deadly-shooting/
BJ

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
And?????? A tragic mistake, I'm sure the LEO has nightmares every night and, there's no such thing has "having your record cleared", it stays on the record as a major screw forever, forget promotions. Lst month in the Bay Area, one BART police officer accidently shot and killed another BART officer, a huge accident.

OMG! Kill somebody because your a moron cop, and you have that in your file as a major screw up forever! Oh no, that's terrible! And who says the police aren't held accountable.


Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
This all could have been avoided through disarming the police. The victim would have reached for a lollipop in the gingerbread mobile instead of an AR15 and been completely pacified.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
I don't like people who want to become LEOs, bill collectors, repossession people, prison guards, and the like. Just not my kind of people. I'm generally on the side of the people saying the cops did another bad shoot and handled another situation terribly. And, that will be the same here. haha

However, the characters that made the video and commented along with it... those guys I don't agree with. Especially the redneck justice part. IMO, those cops did not want to hurt that guy at all. IMO, those cops are tortured souls right now going over what they could have done to take the guy down. Their egos are tortured at the very least. IMO, one strong guy was just too much for the three of them. Bad training and standing around hoping for the best is what got them. They just weren't ready for this guy, IMO. They'll be thinking about that for a long time, I think.

You know... even Batman was taken down by a simple net. A simple net is used easily to subdue the scariest of all animals, an angry housecat. haha Why taser and pepperspray and beat with a baton? If you don't have two or more officers handy you could make a gun that shot the net out over the subject. Hold on... let me google this before I post to find out if it is a bad idea...

Well... there you go... some smarter guys than the LEOs in that video are already using one:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-10-02/news/1997275131_1_west-baltimore-police-knife
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
All of this "treating with kindness" stuff is what got us here in there first place. The guy had been bothering passing bicyclists somehow. Then the LEOs show up and TRY to talk, spray and taze him into submission. If a TAZER wont work,, well~~~

And Sure they could have jumped him gang style and appear on the evening news with a Rodney King sort of statement to follow. Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont. This is an indicator of a dwindling respect for LEOs in general. And even worse a disrespect of their available force. If im told to co operate by armed LEOS,, im gonna. If its over non sense, the courts can later decide. They guy OBVIOUSLY wasnt going to co operate and somehow managed to thwart a tazer, then jumped into what was no doubt a running vehicle with arms in it. I would have squeezed the trigger too.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
F*#k you fatty. You were an LEO like a janitor at NASA is astronaut. This site forum has enough issues without a delusional and inflammatory asshat like you being in the mix. The sooner you get shown to the door again, the better this place will be!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:58am PT
" 20 years ago, we didn't have people fried on drugs that make them superman strong and impervious to rational thouhgts [sic].."

Yes we did. The PCP cliche is from at least 20 years ago.

Amen! PCP (aka Angel Dust) has been around a lot longer than that, and what it does to a person seems impossible to those who have never experienced it. The amount of force needed to subdue a dusted suspect makes the killing of Rasputin seem like the most minimal of force. If a suspect is dusted, good luck getting the suspect cuffed.

Yes, cops make mistakes. Anyone involved with law or law enforcement knows that. The knee-jerk reaction of some, however, that all cops are wrong, and are possessed with superhuman abilities to determine in a split second when deadly force is needed, strikes me as even more unrealistic than those who say law enforcement is always right. As several have mentioned, neither the film nor the article provide sufficient information for those not directly involved to make an intelligent decision. All we know for sure is that, as Philo said, someone died but not from natural causes.

John
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
he knee-jerk reaction of some, however, that all cops are wrong, and are possessed with superhuman abilities to determine in a split second when deadly force is needed, strikes me as even more unrealistic than those who say law enforcement is always right.

Seriously? Well that's your internal bias showing itself off, then.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
You're correct, DMT. My bias is that all cops are right is closer to the truth than all cops are wrong. My bias is also that both propositions are unrealistic.

John
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 05:18pm PT



All of this "treating with kindness" stuff is what got us here in there first place. The guy had been bothering passing bicyclists somehow. Then the LEOs show up and TRY to talk, spray and taze him into submission. If a TAZER wont work,, well~~~

And Sure they could have jumped him gang style and appear on the evening news with a Rodney King sort of statement to follow. Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont. This is an indicator of a dwindling respect for LEOs in general. And even worse a disrespect of their available force. If im told to co operate by armed LEOS,, im gonna. If its over non sense, the courts can later decide. They guy OBVIOUSLY wasnt going to co operate and somehow managed to thwart a tazer, then jumped into what was no doubt a running vehicle with arms in it. I would have squeezed the trigger too.

Its got nothing to do with "treating with kindness" or dwindling respect for LEO's. You don't know what happened any better than people who are ready to string up the cops. Lack of co-operation or submission is not a reason to escalate and/or kill someone. Maybe he was mentally ill or having a reaction to medication. You don't know. What I do know is that there has to be a better way of dealing with these types of situations instead of someone ending up dead.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 20, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Same could be said of you Ncclimber. This part you projected in particular which you say, and I quote: "This site forum has enough issues without a delusional and inflammatory asshat like you being in the mix." Not just because you post angry attacks with swear words, which is more than is said of those you attack. Although there is that of course.

Lighten up will you.

NCclimber said:
"F*#k you fatty. You were an LEO like a janitor at NASA is astronaut. This site forum has enough issues without a delusional and inflammatory asshat like you being in the mix. The sooner you get shown to the door again, the better this place will be!"
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
The only purpose for police is for social control and protection of property. They are not here to serve or protect you. That is a myth. If it were true, this guy would still be alive.
You can't have people disobeying cops and getting off lightly or alive, because that would send the wrong message to the public. Cops are militant and inappropriate for a true civilized society.
The dude was in the middle of the dessert on foot. They should have just left him alone. He wasn't a true threat to anyone other than himself.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 20, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
Couchmaster said:
...Lighten up will you.

What you said is valid. I deserved that.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 20, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
Back in the 'good old days' or really more physical times, they would'a whacked him with a billy club in the shins or on the shoulders until he "became cooperative."

Excessive use of force seems self-evident here. Especially since it was lethal force. Of course there will be "an official investigation," and in the end simply swept under the rug with an "official reprimand" or some such BS!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 20, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
The *official investigation* will declare shooting the dude when he went for the rifle in the police cruiser was the right call.

BUT what will be left out is any criticism of the piss-poor handling of a simple encounter that led up to shooting the dude.

Any high school linebacker could have tackled the guy. Any high school wrestler could have pinned him. Once tackled or pinned, it's a simple matter to apply the cuffs.
John M

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
Any high school linebacker could have tackled the guy. Any high school wrestler could have pinned him. Once tackled or pinned, it's a simple matter to apply the cuffs.

no way. If someone doesn't give in, then it can be very difficult to cuff them. Most people experience a person giving in. You fight them, you beat them, they give up and allow themselves to be handled.

But this guy wasn't giving up. He was pepper sprayed and tazed and still did not give up. That makes for a very different and difficult situation. Add in that cops are now afraid of blood transfer, and can't use choke holds, and it can get very difficult to restrain someone. Especially if that person is strong, is amped up on adrenaline or other drugs, and or is mentally ill.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 20, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
Police should only have to deal with reasonable people who take the usual cues and submit to verbal commands and detention. All others will be given a lollipop and bus tickets to San Francisco mental institutions.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:51pm PT
Back in the 'good old days' or really more physical times, they would'a whacked him with a billy club in the shins or on the shoulders until he "became cooperative."

Excessive use of force seems self-evident here. Especially since it was lethal force. Of course there will be "an official investigation," and in the end simply swept under the rug with an "official reprimand" or some such BS!

Back in the good old days, attempting to billy club someone on PCP would most likely result in the billy club being in the hands of the suspect. Excessive use of force is not self-evident here. It's certainly possible, but not established by a long shot.

John
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
John-

My only reference is my experience as a medical X-ray tech for 3 years in the Army. I was frequently called upon to get X-rays of the miscreants after "being subdued." The MPs were pretty good at dealing with this kind of behavior, and woe unto anyone who fuked back at them. Their orders were to NEVER hit anyone in the head, but anywhere else was...kinda OK. The "powers that be" didn't mind a few broken bones along the way. The really prime way they had was beating HARD on the shins. Then step 2 was on the shoulder blades or breaking both collar bones with the nightstick. This was OK since the guy was already on the way to Leavenworth. Yeah, it was kinda' brutal but nobody died in the process.

I'm really against application of lethal force unless the perp has killed someone or attempted to do so...
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
I am always amazed how everybody sees situations so differently and I wonder when the police radio transcripts and recordings will be out. Maybe the police cruiser had a dash cam?

Has anybody here been hit with pepper spray or a taser? Just the CS gas that I experienced in the military was quite debilitating. Pepper spray and taser are much worse. No way I'm resisting after that. He must have been out of it in some way.....


It is sad that the man died.

(edit) What's up with the vicious attacks on Fatrad? No wonder he left the site. If my memory serves he left voluntarily. He did not get kicked off.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
There is quite a bit of monday morning quarterbacking in this thread. You can't tell anything from that video.

An interesting thing that is worth noticing is how the people who were probably the best witnesses to what happened just drove off after the shooting, through the crime scene no less!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Not all that odd if you have spent your fair share of time wandering the hills west of Vegas. A lot of fuked up sh#t going on up in thar.

labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
I wonder if Pacifico was actually Fatrad? The account has been deactivated now....
Decko

Trad climber
Colorado
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
I guess unless you were the cop wondering if the perp had the gun off the cruisers rack already and you had time to try and get to him again, maybe, or defend yourself before a rifle barrel is now pointed at you by someone whom appeared to be very driven is hard to say unless you were there.....

It's easy to point fingers from afar, but really folks unless you right in there in the middle of it and wondering if your gonna get shot by some suspect.......

Not a lot of time to make your decision.....

I've worked with a few retired cops and from the stories I've heard when it's time to draw the weapon you've already come to the conclusion the situation warrants it and your own or someone else's life is in jeopardy.

They say it takes one second to act.......

And a second and a half to re-act....

Which one ya gonna choose.....



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#346019

This fine upstanding Boulder police officer planned with a coworker to take down this nearly tame trophy elk. Right in the heart of one of Boulder's richest and most densely populated neighborhoods he opened fire and blasted this magnificent creature away.

But we weren't there so we shouldn't judge nor hold those involved accountable. I mean they are officers of the law after all right?.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
This is what happened to the accomplice...

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_24003378/ex-boulder-cop-brent-curnow-accept-plea-deal

The officer who shot the elk is still awaiting trial.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_24231015/ex-boulder-cop-mapleton-elk-shooting-case-trial-date-moved

Both no longer work as leo's.

I hope Sam Carter sees the view from behind bars for a few years. He probably won't see as much time as I would like....

(edit) I would call this at least somewhat accountable. Maybe you need a better example philo?
Bargainhunter

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
I watched the vid and felt that actions by the police here were appropriate and justified.

So here's my Monday morning quarterbacking:

A guy is acting erratically obstructing a public thoroughfare and police are called to asses the situation. The guy is defiant and uncooperative. He is big thus a takedown would involve a struggle, and with only two officers this could result in injuries both to officers and the suspect. Better to have more people available to prevent injuries. Backup is called, but this is a rural location so backup will take a while.

The guy is still uncooperative, continues resisting officers. Verbal demands go unheeded. Perhaps he has a weapon in his clothes, refuses to raise hands to assure police that he is non-violent and not a threat. Non-lethal force is attempted. Doesn't work. Officers did a good job in delaying a possible dangerous confrontation with the suspect while waiting for back up or hoping he might cooperate with further verbal de-escalation, or perhaps wander off into the sage brush and not endanger himself or the public on the roadway. He still doesn't. He then runs to get their vehicle...which is similar to reaching for their gun- a big no no. He learns the consequences, or unfortunately doesn't learn the consequence but at least the threat is terminated.

I am sure there will now be a procedural memo going out in the near future for officers to keep their vehicles locked to prevent a similar situation.

For all those who feel that the cops should have "just arrested him", it's not that easy. Two against one, especially when the suspect is drunk/high/psychotic and belligerent, is asking for injuries. If the cops had been initially aggro and starting beating him with nightsticks and punching and kicking him to control the situation ASAP, then they have to deal with excessive use of force complaints from all the bystanders. So it's a dilemma, and definitely a tough situation for the police to be in.

The commentary from the two guys in the car reflects the ignorance of lay people in such situation. If arresting a belligerent person is so easy, why didn't they get out and just do it for the officers? I bet if they approached the guy and he's covered in diarrhea and vomit and spitting blood at them while murmuring "I'm gonna stab your eye sockets with a screwdriver....", they may reconsider with their fantasy Jiu-Jitsu takedown and Full Nelson citizen arrest. Do you really want your eye gouged, your hair pulled, or get punched, kicked or scratched in the process? How about getting your fingers or nose broken or pile driven into the road or worse? Was being a hero and intervening with some unruly d#@&%ebag (off his psych meds or hypoglycemic or intoxicated or whatever your excuse is for his inappropriate behavior) worth it? I'll pass.

I wonder how the two in the car would have felt if this psychotic guy came over to their vehicle and started pounding on their window....then the window breaks. I'd be awfully happy that there were officers there with guns.

People make bad decisions every day and sometimes lives get lost. In this case, it's the suspect's fault.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Rest in peace D’Andre Berghardt.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
I understand the points made above, but any incident involving an individual "acting strangely" which results in the suspect's death was obviously "managed poorly." Strictly by definition.

About the LEOs not wanting to "get injured," that's what they are being paid to do, to "go in harm's way," and make sure the public is kept from harm.

When I served in the military, it was pointed out it was our job to take a bullet so a civilian wouldn't. Some of the MPs I knew could have handled this well. The "problem" would have had 2 busted kneecaps and 2 busted clavicles, and be in the jug for a long time but still be alive to complain about how he was treated.

I consider this to be "excessive violence" towards a now dead human.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Brokedown had he been given that MP treatment, we would probably be watching it on the nightly news along with the corresponding riots..



labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:07am PT
Bureau of Land Management releases statement on Red Rock shooting


Krista Hostetler

Las Vegas, NV (KTNV) -- The Bureau of Land Management has released a statement, regarding the fatal shooting near Red Rock Canyon, involving two of its officers.

20-year-old D'Andre Berghardt was shot and killed last Friday, during an altercation with law enforcement officers from NHP and BLM.

The BLM statement is listed below:

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) takes seriously the protection of life and property and treats any loss of human life with the utmost concern. In coordination with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, the BLM is investigating the incident and is able to provide at this time the following preliminary information from the ongoing investigation.

On Friday, February 14, 2014, the BLM received several reports from citizens who were concerned for the safety of a man walking along the highly trafficked State Route 159 highway. The citizens reported the man was walking in and out of on-coming traffic. In addition, two cyclists who were bicycling along the highway reported seeing this same man and expressed fear for themselves and the safety of others in the area.

BLM Law Enforcement Officers were dispatched to the scene, and upon arrival made contact with the man later identified as 20-year-old D’Andre Berghardt Jr. BLM officers attempted to speak with Mr. Berghardt in order to ascertain his identity and welfare. At this point, officers ordered Mr. Berghardt out of the roadway.

Mr. Berghardt then began to actively resist the officers. Despite continued attempts to gain compliance through verbal commands and utilizing available secondary measures, including multiple Taser deployments, pepper spray and a baton, the officers were unable to gain compliance. During this time, Mr. Berghardt attempted to gain entry into two occupied privately owned vehicles, which the officers physically tried to prevent for the safety of the public.

A Nevada Highway Patrol Trooper also arrived on the scene and the officers attempted to take Mr. Berghardt into custody after the NHP Trooper deployed his Taser. Mr. Berghardt threatened to shoot the officers and entered the running NHP cruiser where he reached for the trooper’s duty rifle contained in a firearms safety rack. Fearing for their own safety and the safety of the numerous citizens in the immediate vicinity, the two BLM officers engaged Mr. Berghardt with gunfire. Medical personnel were summoned and Mr. Berghardt was pronounced deceased at the scene.

Both BLM law enforcement officers involved have significant law enforcement experience and training, including mandatory annual training. One officer has 17 years of law enforcement experience; the other officer has more than nine years of federal law enforcement experience.

In accordance with standard procedure, this incident is under investigation by the Las Vegas Metro Police Department and the BLM. Until the investigation is complete, the BLM is unable to provide further comments on the details of the shooting or the investigation. The officers have been placed on routine administrative leave.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:19am PT
Of course, we won't know until the autopsy, but I also have to suspect something like PCP.

As someone mentioned, if you've never encountered someone on this, it is hard to imagine. They don't understand what you are saying. They don't feel pain. They are as strong as 5 guys, due to extreme adrenaline output.

I remember a fellow brought into the ER I was working in Delano. He was not a particularly big guy, but it took SIXTEEN cops to take him down. They basically laid on top of him.

He was brought in on a paramedic gurney, duck taped to the edges. He had bent the steel pipes of the gurney. I remember a paramedic went to cut the tape so he could be moved off the gurney....he was straining every muscle in his body to try to break free. One of the cops pulled his gun and pointed it AT THE PARAMEDIC. I suggested that cutting the tape might not be a good idea.

How to move him?

I placed an IV, then I paralyzed him with a short term drug that allowed us to move him to the hospital gurney, duck taped him into it, while we bagged him to give him oxygen. AFter assessing that he had no major injuries, we just left him there for a few hours, after which the PCP wore off. The police didn't want him, so he left under his own power. He didn't remember any of it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:22am PT
cmon,,,the guy had MULTIPLE TAZER DEPLOYMENTS and didnt phase him.. This was a good shooting. And you now what, i feel for the guys doing the shooting, not the drugged up perp. His issues are over. Theirs is just starting.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:45am PT
cop should have not had is car so that somebody could get in,

carry a frickin net and just toss it over the guy,


wait til guy actually gets the rifle out of the rack before you pop him,

is not the rifle locked up? if not it should be,

how hard is it to take control of this situation?

how would that cop perform in say, a real war somewhere?

labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:29am PT
"how would that cop perform in say, a real war somewhere?"

In a real war it would have been over the first time he tried to get into one of the other stopped cars. Shoot first ask questions later. Depending on the rules of engagement of course....
Trad is Rad

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo California
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:36am PT
pigs suck.
MisterE

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:41am PT
You never can tell what may happen when a guy is this jacked up on who-knows-what. "Multiple taser deployments" that don't work seems like it would make one wary of the effectiveness of other measures, especially when it is 2 BLM cops...

It seems legit.

PS Hey Jeff, you and Burchey are gold and silver in the bannination awards...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:04am PT
If he's within reach of the gun, I'm popping him. Nothing wrong with that.

But causing the situation to devolve to that point was piss-poor performance on the part of the cops.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:09am PT
You all know that the USA employs a really different take on reality, right ?

I had the pleasure of some time with Ben Gadd in an Icefields hostel once. He was thankful to be in a country that wasn't crazy. (His words)
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:29am PT
Cool story, bro!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:53am PT
If only you could be the talking Jebus you aspire to be...

Don't fret... Tomorrow's another day.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:54am PT
Deep, bro!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:01am PT
So an as#@&%e takes over a cop car and becomes dead in his efforts. This is news ?

Try Canada, where an unarmed drunk runs away through a snow covered high school field after being apprehended for being a prick in a bar and gets shot in the back by the RCMP, claiming they feared for their life...

Cool story don't you think ?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:08am PT
You sound cranky, bro! Talk to you later after you take your happy pills, duder!
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:46am PT
And all because he was walking erratically down a road? Yeah, he was jacked up on something, but due to unwarranted LEO involvement, he's dead.

Realistically, society won't miss him much?

LEOs should have had the vehicle secured, and rifle rack locked. Unless he had the gun in his hands, he did not constitute a legitimate threat to their lives.

I really don't have much sympathy for either the victim of the shooting or the LEOs; it escalated beyond control due to either drugs, physical illness, or mental unbalance.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Wow, the stupid taco never ceases to amaze! I knew there were ignorant people who frequent this site, but this thread is priceless:

multiple taser deployments, pepper spray and a baton, all in an effort to remove him from the roadway, where cyclists reported seeing a man walking in and out of traffic (i.e. threatening the safety of others).

I'm sure the LEOs could have tried harder to reason with him.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
This is very sad for all concerned.
It's apparent that D'Andre was whacked out. Possibly mentally ill, possibly on drugs, or both.
It appears that the LEOs made a lot of reasonable attempts to control the situation.

LEOs should have had the vehicle secured, and rifle rack locked. Unless he had the gun in his hands, he did not constitute a legitimate threat to their lives.

I really don't have much sympathy for either the victim of the shooting or the LEOs; it escalated beyond control due to either drugs, physical illness, or mental unbalance.
The preliminary report says the weapons in the highway patrol vehicle were in their safety rack.
The door of the vehicle was wide open when he was shot, they could have shot him in any part of his body. D'Andre was apparently not armed.
Eight bullets and a fatality seems disproportionate. If he'd actually gotten a live weapon in his hands that would be different.

Presumably the truth will out.

Like so many cases out here in the western US (I can't say about the eastern part), it seems as if the police are not well trained to deal with an unruly and non-compliant suspect. Reference Meserle in the Fruitvale BART station, several San Jose police killings of unarmed men and women in the past ten years.
He never should have gotten his hands on the patrol car. Shooting him the legs or arse would've stopped him (easy for me to say). I'm sure the LEOs were trying NOT to shoot him until the very end.

It certainly didn't help that the idiot tourons in cars hadn't gotten the hell outta there. You can see 2 or 3 vehicles turning around and driving away afterwards. The LEOs also had to worry about their safety.
As someone mentioned earlier, nearly all American LEOs are now trained to shoot to kill. As a result, I am always on edge in the presence of an armed officer. Even when I know him/her.

In the UK for comparison, regular officers are specifically not provided firearms. They are well trained to take down even large, strong, unruly people. Only special officers are allowed to carry guns, they have to check them out from the station and check them back in at the end of their shift. And they DO shoot to kill, when they have to. A friend of mine is an ex special weapons officer from London and we've talked about this. In other countries the police are respected and not feared by the populace. It used to be that way here.
Timid TopRope

Social climber
the land of Pale Ale
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
Man, all that PCP and angel dust and I never got any super powers. All I got was this lousy tee shirt.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
Not enough info to judge, but take it from me, Clark County cops don't fool around. Many of them can't even spell fool around.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
it seems as if the police are not well trained to deal with an unruly and non-compliant suspect.

Never underestimate the potentially incapacitating power of fear.

These guys might have been well trained and just terrified. Just because they're cops doesn't mean they're immune. Its all ticket writing and what have you and then, BAM! Now you have to subdue a deranged linebacker....

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/21/i-didnt-fking-do-anything-wrong-why-did-a-woman-allegedly-on-a-jog-end-up-screaming-and-in-handcuffs/
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
I jaywalked right in front of a cop once. He pulled into my girlfriend's coffee shop (my destination) with lights and attitude blazing. We talked for a couple minutes, I told him the crossing signal was broken and I simply took my opportunity to cross when there was a break in traffic. He came back 10 minutes later, after testing the signal himself, and apologized for "embarrassing" me in front of my friends.

In Clark County I got pulled over for doing 15 or 20 mph over. The stop ended with me and the cop back at his car looking at a hiking map, with him showing us the best trails for a nice afternoon walk.

I came around a corner doing 60 with a AZ trooper sitting under the 35mph sign. I pulled over, apologized, and left with a ticket for 10 over.

I've had numerous interactions with cops from MT to AZ, CA to NH.
I have a hard time believing it is always the "as#@&%e" cop's fault... especially when only the last half of the interactions are shown.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
I know for a fact that police routinely and blatantly lie in their written reports to support their positions, and even manufacture evidence if they need to do so.

Judges are reluctant to acknowledge this fact because to do so would acknowledge that it's all a farce and it would lead a complete collapse of the American justice system and the economy.

But do not be deceived, all police are as corrupt as any gangster.
overwatch

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
Cops and criminals both put great stock in being respected and can't let it go if they aren't
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 21, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
Not ignorant and not trolling
I know this as fact from a long life of experience
I stand by my statement 100%
I would be will to change "all police are as corrupt as any gangster" to "99% of police are as corrupt as any gangster."
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
I also find your statement really disappointing Sierra Ledge Rat. You must of had some really bad experiences to support your feelings. I'm glad I have had mostly positive experiences with LEO's.

Erik

(I'm also surprised to be agreeing with Coz :-))
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
But do not be deceived, all police are as corrupt as any gangster

Agree. The only thing that separates cops and criminals is the "LAW".
They pumped eight rounds into this guy. These f$%kers were lazy, unimaginative and panicked.
He was in the middle of the desert, on foot with no weapons. They should have left him alone.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
"They should have left him alone." ????

To be hit by a car? I don't think the BLM LEO's just happened show up..... They were called in.

I'm also not saying they couldn't have handled it better. The LEO's are most likely second guessing themselves over and over about the whole incident.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
Yes, left him alone. I'm able to avoid wildlife while driving. Treat him as if he was wildlife.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 21, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
(edit) What's up with the vicious attacks on Fatrad? No wonder he left the site. If my memory serves he left voluntarily. He did not get kicked off.

I agree Labrat.

Okay, I have been resisting chiming in. This may be off the topic of a man dying, and I do not have all the facts of the 'event' that this thread is about. So I will hold off on that one. However, condolences to the deceased's family.

Okay, Fattrad has come back as Pacifico. The (nine) comments under his new avatar so far on the Taco Stand by him have not been that inflammatory, I have seen/read much worst from several Supertopians. Much worst. Some hateful and spiteful posts by some people. In my eyes far worse that anything Jeff has posted. But of course that is just my judgment. Okay, so he is full of himself, especially as a former part-time LEO, however I do not think he is alone in being pompous on this forum.

Yes, he was irritating as Fatrrad and I wish he'd quit with TheEvilOne (a dead give away Jeff, but then I believe you knew that).

I know Jeff from this forum when he was willing to help me when my mother died in January 2007, offering to pick me up at SF airport (I had brothers who did that, but thanks Jeff for your intentions). I met up with him for a beer in Creektown (WC). He appears to be a decent fellow.

So, his account as Pacifico has been deactivated… by Jeff? Or the moderator? I do not know. But some of the BS I have read on this forum is far worse than anything he has written.

Okay, I realize this is not the topic (I did not want to start a new thread). But darn it. Some of you people have short memories and thin skin. If Jeff has learned not to be so inflammatory, then I welcome him back in to the fold.

Jeff and I disagree on certain issues, and perhaps agree on a few. I am a liberal he is not. Big deal, not. Also, maybe he is not a big-time climber, but how many of us can say that? He is still a mountaineer in his own way. I am lucky that I can get out once a week now that Jennie and I have moved to the sticks. At least in Dalkey, I could be climbing just about everyday, now I do not. Does that make me less of a climber?

If Jeff/Fattrad/Pacifico can follow ST protocol (whatever that is, and some of us break that "protocol" from time to time), then so be it. Howdy Jeff. I welcome you back. Just keep your shorts on.

Just my two cents worth, or in Ireland two cent (the euro does not use the plural cents).
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 21, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
The real problem: it's 99% of the LEOs that give the rest a bad name.

Also may be applied to lawyers at your discretion.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
A violently resisting subject has gained access to the inside of a police vehicle that has firearms.

The legal question is, "what would a reasonable officer do?"

It seems likely, based on the limited available evidence, that a reasonable officer would have used deadly force, which makes the rangers legally justified in what they did.

If you are resisting a police officer, and you reach for a firearm, expect to be shot 100% of the time.

Shooting people in the legs or knee-caps, using imaginary net deployment devices, somehow cuffing a strong, mentally-ill, non-compliant subject, or letting a subject go who is quite clearly a threat a public safety, are not options.

Bummer, but the officers were justified in what they did, and the subject's actions dictated the outcome of the incident. (Based on the limited available evidence)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
If you are resisting a police officer, and you reach for a firearm, expect to be shot 100% of the time.

Bummer, but they officers were justified in what they did, and the subject's actions dictated the outcome of the incident.

There really ain't much left to say. The man speaks the truth.

I've been on drugs when interacting with LEOs before... but I've also been compliant and didn't reach for any guns. It really isn't that hard to avoid trouble with cops.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
what you are missing frankie is that he didn't need to be shot and killed until the officers created this situation for him where he needs to be shot and killed
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Wow, wait a second! New information!

I don't remember hearing that the LEOs created the situation where the victim was risking other people's safety and then created the situation where he was non-compliant and then forced to blow off several tazers and pepper spray and then create the situation where he was forced to go for the gun in the car!

I can't believe they would create such a situation for this poor innocent man who was just minding his own business walking in and out of on coming traffic and starting confrontation with bikers.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
Great sarcasm Mechrist!

Maybe this part should be repeated from the BLM statement?

"BLM received several reports from citizens who were concerned for the safety of a man walking along the highly trafficked State Route 159 highway. The citizens reported the man was walking in and out of on-coming traffic. In addition, two cyclists who were bicycling along the highway reported seeing this same man and expressed fear for themselves and the safety of others in the area. "
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Those of you never working on a road crew have NO CLUE as to the havoc something crazy on a roadway can create in nnoooo time. Ive seen it more than i care to remember. Lucky a family of five didnt roll avoiding the idiot. Lucky no bicyclers werent hit by cars dodging the idiot. The idiot was begging for what he eventually got. Railed out of his mind or not, he was still an idiot doing idiotic things that could have resulted in fatal consequences for the innocent.

lubbockclimber

Trad climber
lubbock,tx
Feb 21, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Welcome to the USA land of the police state.
PotatoHead

Trad climber
Nunya,ID
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
Credit: PotatoHead

A couple of lasso's woulda done the trick. Seriously though...if the keys were in the ignition of that SUV that dude could have wreaked havoc. Maybe everyone should have to do 2yrs of LEO service like they do in the Israel Military. You don't even have to carry a sidearm if you don't want to b/c it's "not necessary" according to some of the posters. LEO sounds like a scary job to me. Crazy SOB's everywhere. Give'em a break.
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
They pumped 8 rounds into the guy? I think they showed some restraint considering each clip probably held 13 plus rounds , no? 4 rounds per officer in an adrenaline situation,not too over reactive. Or were there more than 3 cops? would bring the per cop bullet count even lower. Sucks someone died for sure, but nice the officers said hello to their families that night.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
I wonder if he was an organ donor.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:16pm PT
It really isn't that hard to avoid trouble with cops.
Unless you're Black.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Right... if the guy had been white and did the same thing he'd be fine.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
That's not what I'm saying. I'm simply saying that a black male will have a totally different experience with a cop than a white male. That is a fact.
Law enforcement have acknowledged that they profile and there are plenty of examples of cops rushing to judgement when they encounter some who is black.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
I'm simply saying that a black male will have a totally different experience with a cop than a white male. That is a fact.

That has nothing to do with this case. If the victim had been white but acted exactly the same way you think the outcome would have been different?
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
I don't know. Nobody can say for sure, but if I were a betting man, my money would say yes.
I do stick by my earlier statements about cops and these ones in particular.
Law enforcement do not protect and serve. Their only purpose is for social control and protection of property. When the sh!t hits the fan they're not going to be their to protect you, trust me. They're job is to make sure we all stay in line and do what we're told, follow the "Law". They don't care what right or wrong is.
They made in example out of this guy when he did not comply. They acted with no forethought or imagination when it came to dealing with this guy. They only knew violence and force. They had all the power in that situation and they lost control. Ignorant, lazy and cowardly.
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
STEEVEE

You don't know sh!t about cops.

You just talking out your ass.

Become a cop for a few years and then come back and talk.

Right now you're just another typical stupid idiot running his mouth about cops.

Licking the jar from the outside will never give you the inside ......
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
If a suspect puts innocent folks in danger chances are law enforcement will respond. If an officer's life is in danger they can and will use lethal force.

The rest is just, like, your opinion man.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 21, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Next time STEVEE needs some help i hope he calls some methheads. Obviously he approves of those more than cops.. A TR would be good too..
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:01pm PT
The police don't have many alternatives in that situation.

-Not doing anything and letting the guy go on his merry way was not an option (he was clearly a threat to the public)

-Taser didn't work

-Pepper spray didn't work

-Baton didn't work

-given that the taser, pepper spray, and baton didn't stop him, no officer (or sane person) would think going hands-on and grappling with/punching the guy would be a good idea.

Maybe they could have evacuated all the citizens from the area, set up a perimeter around the guy, roadblocks, and waited him out, but he forced their hand before any of that was remotely possible by going in the car.

So what am I missing? what other alternative did the police have?

I'm not saying it isn't a bummer, society may have failed that guy somewhere, but it wasn't at the end. What was he doing out on the streets anyway in such a condition? Where was his family before the incident? This guy being out on the streets was a real risk to the guy, the police, and the general public.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
Too bad this happened in the desert, cause a fire hose would have done the job.
Bargainhunter

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
Licking the jar from the outside will never give you the inside ......

Classic Werner!
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
The story I read stated that he was wandering down the road and waving down bicyclist. I did not read that he was a danger to anyone or threatening anyone. The police had the option to monitor the situation, redirect traffic, and leave him alone. They chose to engage him with force. they left cars doors open, they looked unorganized and panicked. That's what I saw on the video. Maybe you guys saw something else.

I respect we live within a system that requires police and I do follow the law. But the bottom line is that the system is rigged and police are the arms and muscles of that system. They are exploited.

It's unfortunate that some people choose to become police for idyllic reasons and in the end are corrupted by the "Law", other cops, criminals and the frustrations of working within a system which restricts their ability to be true public safety officer that serve and protect fellow citizens. In the end this "brotherhood of blue" are servants to the power elite.


clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
Shooting people because you "feel threatened" is f#CK!NG STUPIDITY!! Take the risk and maybe die, or get a F-ing desk job. Cops should try a really dangerous line of work, before becoming lifer's in an insulated and exclusive career society.

Well, It goes with the territory. It is a mentality.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:13am PT
You don't know sh!t about cops.
Werner, I know enough about cops to give me an opinion about them. In my youth I was arrested by them, harassed by them and even helped by them. Unfortunately I've experienced more of the former than the latter. I doubt a police officer will ever save my life or be there when I really need them such as in a home invasion. I will take care of that one myself.
I believe in self reliance, self respect and respect of others. If that is something you disagree with, then we would be best to avoid each other.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:20am PT
you believe in WHA??????????


respect for "others" you say?



BBBBBAAAAAAAHAHahhahahahaaaaa.. Yes the IDIOT was showing massive respect for others out in the middle of the road causing cars to swerve about, attempting to get into theri vehicles, then going after bicyclers, and finally going after the officers. Oooooozing with respect he was.

John M

climber
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:30am PT
Yes the IDIOT was showing massive respect for others out in the middle of the road


ron.. he could have mental health issues.


I know that its hard to be a cop. I respect the work that they do. What I have a hard time with is the way the highway patrol approached the scene. A possibly dangerous and loose person and he leaves his vehicle running and open. And then can't stop the person from entering it without shooting him.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:46am PT
you can not generalize about the cops,

too many of those fuzzy little shitheads to do that,
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:49am PT
Obviously this guys was loaded on something or in some manic state. I'm sure you and I would agree, Ron, that if this guy broke into our house, deadly force would be warranted. But in this situation there was plenty of room for this guy to roam, they had the choice to not engage him.
This whole thing was tragic and could've been handled differently, but it wasn't. What do we learn from it?
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 01:27am PT
I'm guilty of that!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2014 - 01:45am PT
I'm sure you and I would agree, Ron, that if this guy broke into our house, deadly force would be warranted.

What if he was walking out in front of cars, threatening the safety of innocent bystanders, and threatening bikers? Would intervention be warranted? And if intervention resulted in the suspect resisting and trying to get into bystander's cars, would that warrant a firmer touch? And if that firmer touch involved tasers and pepper spray that didn't slow the man down and he went for a gun, would that warrant a psychological evaluation and a comprehensive treatment plan?

Face the facts, you are letting your attitude towards cops cloud your perception of reality here (and likely many other situations where you see 1/2 the story). Nobody said it wasn't tragic... for fuksake, someone died, that is horrible. But to paint it as just a bunch of power hungry trigger happy meat heads is despicable and shows a serious detachment from reality.
Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:04am PT
He did get the "comprehensive treatment plan".

PS: Go do ride alongs for a couple of monthes on Friday and Saturday nights in Reno.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:13am PT
My new UTS 15 has 2 magazine tubes and a selector lever so I can load lethal buckshot and slugs in one and then load the other tube with less than lethal rubber stars and buck.

I'm still learning the weapon, but it allows one to shoot a recalcitrant noncompliant offender in the lower legs with rubber in order to get him on the ground, but at the flip of the lever one can go to lethal rounds if he produces a weapon.

I bet more and more cops will carry these versatile shotguns.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:15am PT
How do you like the UTS? I've been thinking about getting one. vs. KSG?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:47am PT
So i googled this deal last night.

Saw headlines like : "BLM OFFICERS shoot man sitting inside patrol car"
and "hitchhiker is shot by BLM"..

Now THAT was hardly the case, but the more liberal the site, the worse these headlines were.

I also looked for any reports about the dead perps, or his history, of which i found exactly zero info. Had he been a known mentally ill type or was being treated for any such issues, it seems those more liberal sites would have been all over that.

Now STEEVEE admits that if this guy had entered his home with the same "attitude" he would have shot him dead too. Yet he also says the guy should have been left to roam, which would have likely ended in a tragic way for other innocent people out there that day. There were reports from bicyclists, as well as motorists of him being a threat to people and the traffic. The road is a house of sorts, which we all share and laws prevent us from just doing what ever we want on those roadways as they are a common use area of the people.

When i worked for NDOT, if COWS got out of the fences in Washoe valley, we responded in a code three manner to that situation due to the fact that they now presented a viable and dangerous threat to the traffic. Picture some one driving on that red rock road, a family of tourists who are glancing at maps and talking about plans when they suddenly come up on a guy in the middle of the road who runs in front of them.

Ive seen that exact scenario with those cows and the results were SAD and ugly. That is the reason they couldnt just let him wander about. Working on a road crew is one of THE most dangerous jobs in America and threats to that traffic are considered such as well, as it should be.

Then we have the racial comments. If he had been white etc etc. He wasnt he was black.. Then come the "society let him down" comments. Society, is YOU and I. I didnt know him nor did YOU or I let him down in any way shape or form. INDIVIDUALS are responsible for their actions, or the drugs they take or the mayhem they create. He obviously had no issues with the mental health system or that would have been splashed in every headline in google- which are pages worth.
Now isnt there a bit of racism in the ASSUMPTION that this man somehow was failed by society due only to his color?? Without any back ground?


Again im feeling for the two BLM LEOs. I will tell you that stays with you the rest of your years on earth. It will likey haunt their sleep and their daily activities for years to come. They will probably receive threats themselves from various groups. Law suits perhaps? So on and so forth.

Unfortunate, but we must have a level of societal norms if we are to exist here in harmony. And THAT MEANS laws, and those that enforce those laws, for the GOOD OF ALL. Some articles mentioned "frontier justice" as a snarky quip. If frontier justice had been issued, it would have been by the first bicyclist he threatened or the first car he attempted to stop in the middle of the road. Bump Bump,, and it would have been all over.

We are a long ways from "frontier justice" these days.


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:56am PT
Speaking only from the other side, that is, I won't speak to the police side: but STEEVE is right on the money that blacks have different experiences than whites with cops. Usually they have extensive stories too. Ask ANY black person. I've never met one who didn't have that belief although there must be some. I've just never met that person yet. Knowing that they will be treated different can and often does make them react to police differently.

Folks here all bring their personal baggage to the discussion. None of us really knows what occurred in this instance. A grand jury will collect all the evidence they can find, and as there were plenty of non-police eyewitness and video, perhaps some we have not yet seen, the truth will come out.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
Did I just read all of Ron's last post?

Yes, I did.

Well presented Ron!

I cannot believe it.

Did someone hyjack your account? ;-)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Theres hundreds if not thousands of BLACK police officers Couch. And some of those have used deadly force in their job. I guarantee not one of them hesitated over color of a deadly perp.

The tired excuse of "society letting them down" does nothing but promote the continued feelings and perceptions. FED service these days CATERS to minority's of all color. The consent decree and other affirmative actions long in place. In TODAYS times is this any sort of excuse really?

Even Reginald Denny gave his attackers a forgiveness during the Rodney King RIOTS. That despicable out lashing at innocent people were EXCUSED due only to their color. Even by victims. Seems the more we do to correct the "slavery" of a long long past, the more excuses are made to justify piss poor behavior. I guess as a partial Irishman i should go RIOT on some British types as they long long ago enslaved my Irish brethren eh. Or perhaps i can act on my Choctaw blood and lash out over the Trail of tears.

Cant I have the same excuses?




Edit: Labrat it is i the only i- i know..;-)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
tooth,

pricey even without the $200 paint job, but I recommend the light/laser combo, and I also got the breaching crown.

I've only shot it a few times so I would have to say the jury is still out, but it seems to be a REALLY hot ticket. I mean, hell, you can pump it 14 times without feeding it. It really can handle a riot!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
In reining in the Seattle Police, I believe they've been instructed by the Feds to shoot to disable when possible, rather than to kill. That probably would have worked fine in this situation, and has been working so far in Seattle I think.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
Funny the guys who are down on cops are from Humbolt and Santa Cruz.

Weed head alert..... paranoia big destroy ya.

Cozgrove is off on his demographics, I never have smoked "inhaled" the stuff.

Actually, he is right, because a lot of neighbors, and some friends are occasional users. It does go with the territory.

Cops are shooting people to often, They operate by training and procedure, as they should. The increase in unnecessary killing of civilians is because of a mentality that has changed. Watch out when the thinking has become "us" against them.

The protest in Egypt, Ukraine, and Venezuela are rooted in the disparity and separation we have escalating here, in a new hybrid version of the same old way people have thought about and treated each other since the beginning of society.

The police are distancing themselves from the people, and they are not alone in this at all. You can see this "separation" everywhere increasing at all points... It is the sign of corruption, an unstoppable natural human process. Business, government, religion, damn, even local school teachers and nuclear scientists giving standard tests are doing it. Letting that sweet but icky unethical decision be made for the betterment of number one.

History says blood will have to flow to reset society, So I think we may all take a moment to call ourselves stupid for repeating it. But we will repeat it. The wrongs will be righted because the common person now understands they an equal right to define fairness.

The police should be brave, well trained, serving and protecting the people. Are the laws(regulations) or is a developing culture starting to say otherwise? Yes, so action will have to be taken to change it. We need our law enforcement for the people.

STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Nice comment Ron. I appreciate your point of view.
The crux of the issue for me is that I wish it was true frontier justice paid out by ordinary citizens. It would have been easier to swallow instead of the incident that occurred that is representative of a system of comply or die. The fact that "professional" law enforcement officers acted in a such a way, that I view as unprofessional and unorganized scares the sh!t out of me. These guys have a badge, gun and the law on their side and are rarely convicted for wrong doing. They have a license to kill, period. And there are stories all over the news of police acting presumptuous and killing innocent people or acting in fear and shooting wildly into crowds to take down one person and in the process hit innocent bystanders http://www.cbsnews.com/news/times-square-shooting-nypd-officers-shoot-two-innocent-bystanders-near-times-square/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/all-9-empire-state-building-shooting-injuries-by-police/
Police do not protect or serve. They are unfortunate pawns in a rigged system.
I have no doubt that police officers are just like you or me and have families, wants, needs and believe in what they do. I don't believe in what they do or represent when they put on a badge and gun.
Ron, you're maybe a more reasonable man than I and your comment was thoughtful, but I don't need cops. They serve the "Law' not me.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 22, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
History says blood will have to flow to reset society, So I think we may all take a moment to call ourselves stupid for repeating it. But we will repeat it.

Rudyard said it best.

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
but STEEVE is right on the money that blacks have different experiences than whites with cops.

So you and STEEVE honestly think the outcome would have been different if the guy had acted the exact same way, but was white instead of black?

You people are fuking ridiculous.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
STEEVEE, for those incident you mention, indeed no one or no govt or law agency will ever be perfect.

Some one up thread mentioned what officers would do in a war. We have had many examples of that very thing within the confines of this country.

The North Hollywood shootout for instance, where not one officer fled the scene for his or her safety. They stood steadfast against gunmen with all the modern warfare they could carry and wear. Against overwhelming odds for at that time, AR style weaponry wasnt common among LEOs. There is a movie about that incident which is VERY ACCURATE in detail. Suddenly the LosAngeles police dept became the HEROES. But i promise that you would be just as dead from one perp shooting you as two armed with fully auto weapons. The .40 caliber hand gun was developed specifically after a Florida FBI shoot out against two armed men, that had been responsible for cold blooded murders of many innocent victims. The 9mm rounds which both had been shot with did not stop them and they ended up killing two and wounding many other FBI agents.. So thats how they would handle WAR.





edit: Have I ran into "prick officers" ? Yes indeed i have. I had a fellow LEO coming into my district hassling my permitees once upon a time and i had to take measures to see that he never tread in my district again.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
Maybe yall can find more recent data, and I encourage you to look, but just off the top of my google: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/ph98.txt

Credit: mechrist
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
The North Hollywood shootout for instance, where not one officer fled the scene for his or her safety. They stood steadfast against gunmen with all the modern warfare they could carry and wear. Against overwhelming odds for at that time, AR style weaponry wasnt common among LEOs. There is a movie about that incident which is VERY ACCURATE in detail. Suddenly the LosAngeles police dept became the HEROES. But i promise that you would be just as dead from one perp shooting you as two armed with fully auto weapons. The .40 caliber hand gun was developed specifically after a Florida FBI shoot out against two armed men, that had been responsible for cold blooded murders of many innocent victims. The 9mm rounds which both had been shot with did not stop them and they ended up killing two and wounding many other FBI agents.. So thats how they would handle WAR.

Ron, this is an aside of the OP, I agree with your position on that.

However, I live a couple of miles from the site of the above shootout, and I actually treated some of the cops.

I thought their behavior was heroic.

UNTIL they had the gunmen down.

Then they proceeded to execute one by not allowing the paramedics, located 100 feet away, to provide care. He bled to death laying on the ground for nearly an hour.

That was an execution of an unarmed man by cop.

Plain and simple.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
Ron, thanks for keeping "prick" cops in check.

I remember an experience I had when I was in the Marine Corps when I was trying to get back to Camp Pendleton from Tijuana before I was AWOL. Needless to say it was a rough weekend. I had no money, no vehicle, I had blood all over the front of my shirt and I was walking along the freeway around Chula Vista when an CHP officer stopped me and asked me my story. He listened, laughed and gave me a ride all the way back to camp, 90 minutes out of his way. He was a Marine, that helped, but he was also a cop and I remember him and the nice thing he did for me. I suppose if we had more experiences like that with cops...who knows.
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
mechrist, your data doesn't explain the disproportionate amount of blacks arrested and imprisoned compared to whites. http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
From this data, if I were a black man, I can assume cops and the "Law" they represent don't like me very much.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
Actually STEEVEE that goes on WAY more than any of us know- it just isnt headline material for a hyperbolic media .

For instance , i watched the channel 13 vegas news clip about this and their opening comment were about how the incident and the explanations are just fostering ANGER. Yet the rest of the story shows no real anger with anyone. PURE HYPERBOLE is what that is. And the MEDIA is complicit in many of these incidents..


And To Ken, yes they let him bleed out. He was a rabid animal in all aspects, without regard to anyones life including the many citizens that were wounded that day. They just stood there spraying automatic fire in any direction they pleased. Shooting into approaching cars to try and get access to a better vehicle. They had many officers and citizens that required treatments FIRST. And they saved the state a million or so in prosecuting efforts, and then the housing and feeding and care of that rabid animal for the next 20 years while he waited for an execution.

And really, dont try and use the disproportionate stats as a means to an end. Yes poor folks tend to commit more crime. Inner city areas are literally shooting gallery's TODAY. With nightly shootings of all manner of ethnicity against other ethnicity. But that is NEVER used by the media to point out ANYTHING is it. But by golly see WHITE cops shooting a minority and it will be splashed upon headline after headline.



edit : also to Ken, i will commend you for being there and being a help!
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Feb 22, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
Didn't the authorities let the CSA agent at LAX bleed out while procedure dictated a lock-down? Safety first can kill too.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Feb 22, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
I'm simply saying that a black male will have a totally different experience with a cop than a white male. That is a fact.
Law enforcement have acknowledged that they profile and there are plenty of examples of cops rushing to judgement when they encounter some who is black.

Example A-


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
And To Ken, yes they let him bleed out. He was a rabid animal in all aspects, without regard to anyones life including the many citizens that were wounded that day. They just stood there spraying automatic fire in any direction they pleased. Shooting into approaching cars to try and get access to a better vehicle. They had many officers and citizens that required treatments FIRST. And they saved the state a million or so in prosecuting efforts, and then the housing and feeding and care of that rabid animal for the next 20 years while he waited for an execution.

Thanks, Rong. You have admitted that the cops were 1st degree murderers, and you are advocating that cops should have the right and ability to murder anyone that in their best guess, deserves to die. No need to bother with laws, courts, evidence, or anything else.

So no need to ever advocate again that this doesn't happen if a murderous cop feels like it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
Ken you drama king.. I DID NOT SAY MURDER ANYONE . And that was not murder. That was a justifiable killing. And you know something else about that incident? Those two were arrested before with AK 47s in possession, and after serving a PALTRY sentence, the judge ordered to have their weapons given back to them... They needed them to pay their defense lawyers so the story went.. But that was just a lie and the guns were then used to shoot the shyt out of YOUR neighborhood.

So you see, all of the LEGAL TAP DANCING these days leads to only more crime..

And thanks you for TOTALLY IGNORING my commendation to you as well. Showing some super class you are. Just hope YOUR not in the way of the next shoot out..You may be the RONG one then.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
Ken you drama king.. I DID NOT SAY MURDER ANYONE . And that was not murder. That was a justifiable killing. And you know something else about that incident? Those two were arrested before with AK 47s in possession, and after serving a PALTRY sentence, the judge ordered to have their weapons given back to them... They needed them to pay their defense lawyers so the story went.. But that was just a lie and the guns were then used to shoot the shyt out of YOUR neighborhood.

So you see, all of the LEGAL TAP DANCING these days leads to only more crime..

And thanks you for TOTALLY IGNORING my commendation to you as well. Showing some super class you are. Just hope YOUR not in the way of the next shoot out..You may be the RONG one then.


Wow
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 22, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
The two holyweird perps turned in their membership cards to the human race when they unleashed full automatic fire, addressed,

to whom it may concern.

He got exactly what he deserved!

The Red Rocks incident?
Maybe it could have been handled better, maybe not.

Out of control cops beating up deaf people and little girls jaywalking?

there's a problem here.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/california-cops-taser-deaf-man-unconscious-communicate-article-1.1618103

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/21/i-didnt-fking-do-anything-wrong-why-did-a-woman-allegedly-on-a-jog-end-up-screaming-and-in-handcuffs/

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 22, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
Not letting paramedics attend to a wounded suspect is murder. If cops want criminals to respect the law, they need to let the system do the work. If it doesn't than obviously it needs to be fixed, but it is not their decision to make.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 22, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
The guy who died caused his own problem, don't you think?

He and his pal shot a couple dozen people. That kind of tied up all of the first-responders. And being the last one shot, he was last in line for help.

He created the long wait time that killed him. I'd call it suicide.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 22, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
Big Mike, we arent talking SOP or policy here, that was one incident. That i mentioned then Ken retorted too. And in that instance, the correct decision was made. There were 20 other people shot in that area, so if the perp died waiting,, GOOD. Best thing that could have happened. If some SOB dumped a 1500 rounds at me, i wouldnt give one micro-rip about him surviving.

Its kind of like little "flashbang" from the Boston Marathon bombing. I imagine more than a few million has been spent thus far on that case. IT will be going on for YEARS to come- absolutely ridiculous. Lawyers lining up to grab some fame and references in defending him, the whole nine of that circus.

I dont advocate that sort of treatement for all perps, BUT~~ there are those cases that shouldnt ever make it to a court.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
mechrist, your data doesn't explain the disproportionate amount of blacks arrested and imprisoned compared to whites.

First off, it ain't my data. Second, I never asked about the disproportionate amount of blacks vs whites being arrested and imprisoned. I asked if you and others thought the situation would have turned out any different if the victim had been white but acted exactly the same. I still haven't seen an answer.

You told us a positive story about a cop who happened to be a marine. Now tell us your worst personal experience with a cop.

BTW, I have had few run ins with marines, but I have never met one who was not hell bent on being a macho dick and starting a fight. I don't judge all marines because of those few, but I'm curious... how did you get bloody on your trip to Tijuana?


Exhibit B-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-guy-breaks-into-a-car-viral-video-actually-a-bit-phony-9142106.html

The first break-in took place in Little Tokyo, while the second is curiously transported to Hollywood Blvd, a tourist area where there is likely to be a higher density of police.

Furthermore, the siren that erupts each time a participant works on the car's lock may well have been inserted during editing, as not a single passer-by seems to bat an eyelid despite a loud noise suddenly blaring out two feet away from them.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:57am PT
He and his pal shot a couple dozen people. That kind of tied up all of the first-responders. And being the last one shot, he was last in line for help.

He created the long wait time that killed him. I'd call it suicide.

Chaz, as usual, you are a total scuz.

The paramedics, who had to stand there and watch him die, because the cops threatened them with drawn guns, would not let them approach him for 45 minutes, until he was dead. They had no other patients to attend to.

Rong, police do not get to make the decision as to whether injured people get treatment. You're the same kind of scum that decide that those civilian "gooks" in Vietnam don't get treatment, because they don't belong to the Master Race.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:10am PT
"The paramedics, who had to stand there and watch him die, because the cops threatened them with drawn guns, would not let them approach him for 45 minutes, until he was dead. "




That's something the gunman should have taken into consideration before he decided to raise all that hell. But for his own actions, he wouldn't have even been there.

As one did not need to be Nostradamus to see that as a potential outcome, I'm comfortable calling it suicide.

I think those cops showed remarkable restraint by letting him live for as long as they did, seeing as he was doing his level best to kill those same cops just seconds earlier.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:17am PT
I've made several comments on this thread, but here's my final position statement:

I'm not as concerned by the race of the "victim" as are many previous posters, but am worried about how readily the LEOs resorted to lethal force. Yes. The guy was either jacked up on Angel Dust or some other mind-altering substance which would wear off in a relatively short frame. I've also heard other posters pretty much say "he needed killing."

Where was his "due process?" Granted he was endangering the BLM LEOs after they hit him with pepper spray and a taser. In his fukked up mental state that simply infuriated him further. An individual on these sort of drugs is incapable of responding to a cop's order. Violence escalated. Justifiable homicide? I think not, at least any jury wouldn't think so...

I don't condone the behavior of the perp/victim/drugged out moron, but neither do I condone this use of excessive zeal in whacking him...

If this can be overlooked by officialdom, where are the limits relating to other members of our once-great society?
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Remember the woman who shot the perv., that molested her son, right in the courtroom? Sonora area,25 years ago? Now that is frontier justice, in the face of the system. Not wise, but...
I admit, I liked it then and I still do.
WBraun

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:43am PT
Actual Bank Robbery In Detroit Absolutely Priceless !!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhYcsoZ4jJg

Cops are awesome ..... LOL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:46am PT
Lol that has to be the scene from a movie... has to be!!!???

DMT
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:57am PT
Brokedownclimber, you say deadly force was excessive, but what alternative can you propose? The man was likely alterted and not capable of making a rational decision, so it is really unfortunate that they killed him, but what else could they have done?

Police can be forced to kill somebody by the situation. There isn't always an alternative. It sucks, but it's the way it is. Oh and by the way, that decision is made in less than a second and is second guessed for years by people who don't even know the training and the policies, and probably haven't even thought about the totality of circumstances leading to the situation.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:08am PT
WBraun

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:21am PT
AW man ya spoiled the fun dude ..... :-)

I knew it was fake,

I was laughing about this video because in 1969 I was in downtown San Fransisco financial district just walking around for fun when ....

Suddenly 5 cop cars running lights and sirens pull up in front of a Bank I was walking in front of.

Oooohhh cool!! bank robbery!!!!!

They all run in there guns drawn but came out a few seconds later, got in cars and roared off again.

Wrong bank branch ..... Hahahaha
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Police can be forced to kill someone by the situation...

Forced? Only when they themselves are in really dire straits... "him or me..."

There were many errors made in this instance: trying to "subdue" an individual without sufficient force available, leaving open the door of the HP cruiser, not really knowing the fuk what they're doing?

BITD when I served in the military, the MPs were NOT armed with anything heavier than a billy club, or in many cases, just a big 6 battery flashlight (which made a very effective "truncheon"). NO firearms allowed!In Germany I saw the "aftermath" of just 6 MPs going into a bar filled with ~ 50-60 drunk GIs engaged in a race riot over women. They WON, no doubter. They were also under the strictest of orders--never hit anyone in the head. There were LOTS of broken kneecaps, heavily bruised shins, broken collarbones, etc., but NO fatalities.

The BLM Rangers, or whatever they were, weren't sufficiently trained in basic close order physical self defense combat skills. Yes, they wanted to do this without getting hurt themselves. They shoulda' whacked the bejeezus out of this character, even knocking him out by a blow to the head with a club.

As big a supporter of firearms as I am, the widespread proliferation of guns to Federal Idiots must stop. The Nevada Highway patrolman needed to be armed, but NOT BLM "Rangers."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:26am PT
I agree with Brokedownclimber 100%.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:31am PT
"As big a supporter of firearms as I am..."
-Brokedown Climber

"I agree with Brokedownclimber 100%."
-philo

This is classic.
WBraun

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:32am PT
LOL you caught that contradiction too .... ^^^^^
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:47am PT
There's really NO contradiction here; the GUNS didn't do anything other than serve as the vehicle for idiocy and incompetence...

I had an M14 during my stint in the military, but was never "forced" to kill anyone with it. I've owned literally hundreds of guns in my lifetime, including some of those "awful assault weapons," but so far haven't ever needed to whack somebody just because I carried it.

I was in a personal confrontation about 20 years ago in a parking lot incident with an aggressive "bully" type individual just as I was getting into my pickup. I had a Winchester Defender 12 gauge pump shotgun under the rear seat for exactly this sort of situation. I chose to leave it there and simply confronted the a$$hole face to face with appropriate "fire in my eye." He backed off. So...it's sort of like giving a kid a toy; they can't wait to play with it. That's the BLM Ranger situation, in my viewpoint. Don't get me wrong here; I'm not really one who likes the "fisticuff" lifestyle, but I also have a belt in Tae Kwon Do from many years ago in addition to Army hand-to-hand combat training. I didn't think even threatening lethal force in the situation was worth contemplating...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:48am PT
You fruit loops don't get it do you. My advocacy for better gun regulation does not mean I am anti gun as you seem to think. Just as my advocacy of Palestinian rights does not make me anti-Jewish. I can say that I agree with a stated opinion without meaning I agree with every opinion of the poster in question. Rodger and I disagree on many points and we agree on many others. His is good man who I appreciate and like. What's the point your comments are trying to make? Or are you just demonstrating that you are no more than a Stupid American?
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:51am PT
The blm rangers probably have more training than the Nevada highway patrol officer in defensive tactics, unless that patrolman had had special training beyond the requirement.

If the subject was just a drunk soldier the situation would have been easier. Bruised shins and even broken collar bones don't necessarily stop a guy like that, But even a drunk soldier knows when the gig is up.

If the suspect doesn't respond to the pain of a baton strike, you want to get away from him, or your going to end up hands on.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:59am PT
I have had a few exceptionally unpleasant encounters with the PseudoCops of RR.
They are absolutely power tripping Rambo Wannabees. They demonstrated incompetence on many levels in this incident. Rodger clearly points some of them out. This did not have to be played out this way. And the rush to acceptance of streetside Capital punishment coupled with the instant vilification of the victim by so many ST posters is a bit disgusting. They will say "whoa, wait a minute you don't know what went down, you weren't there". Then in the next sentence say "One less Meth Head".

We need more Andy Griffith and less Barney Fife.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
Werner? A Stupid American? Bwahahahaha!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
Sooo Rangers dont need guns eh? I guess then neither do game wardens..

Yeah they will just ask the poachers NICLEY to put down their weapons 30 miles in the back country. And if the poachers tell them to go piss off, they simply have to obey at that point right??

Or how about the dedicated timber thieves? More people go the wilds armed than not has been my actual experience. ESPECIALLY in NV or E CA areas.

You guys remember Claud Dallas right?


Trying to justufy the dead perps actions by saying the door should have not been left open? HOW many of you would have bolted for the cops rig in the perps shoes?


Mistake or not, it ended up with the perp in a cops vehicle grabbing for a gun. AFTER threatening to KILL the officers, yet another crime in and of itself. Threaten to kill me then reach for a gun and see what happens next. Ill have a near empty clip is what would happen..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
Ron, where did you get that from? S t r e t c h i n g?

I at least never intimated such a stupid notion. One of my best old buddies is the Game Warden in one of the largest most rugged regions in Colorado. Ive been with him on night patrols and YES he needs a gun.

The RRRambos however not so much.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
What the heck do you think BLM or USFS LEOs do Philo?

And saying the RR Rangers patrolling just outside THE MOST DANGEROUS town in my state not needing arms is utter nonsense.


And Here is why: Dog Valley road- outside of Reno, where things like this happened while I was there.

Reno Narcotics officer found dead in a ditch

Four yr old girls body discovered in a drain pipe along the road

Near dead homosexual found beaten severly at summit one

Shoot out between three people on summit 1

Suicide setting in his truck along side dog valley road

et, etc, etc etc,



These are known as activity corridors and that activity comes from a near by LARGE town where all manner of things go on but OFTEN result ending in these activity areas.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Giving a bully hall monitor a hat, badge and a gun does not make them competent, reasoned or professional.

It just makes them fashionably dangerous.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
For one thing, issuing assault rifles to BLM Rangers is itself preposterous. The correct LEO weapon is a SHOTGUN! With correct training, this whole incident might have resulted in the perp/victim/whatthefukever having his foot or even blown feet blown into so much garbage, or even worse. Lethal force is what I'm railing and raving about...given the weaponry the LEOs are given these days, it's about the only option!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Brokedown,, hunters and shooters in the woods certainly have high powered rifles with them, and most shooting partys these days will have AR or AK weaponry with them.

The very reason ARs are standard in many patrol rigs: North hollywood shootout.

The very reason the .40 caliber was invented- the FBI Florida shootout.

Things have changed since the BIg Red 1....

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Ohh the Irony Ron The IRONY!
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
How many here have ever held a person at gunpoint?

Thought so...

I have several times with trespassers on my ranch during hunting season. Yep. They were armed, too.

My usual line of questioning: "Did you know that you were trespassing on Private land?" Most of the time they'll be very embarrassed and offer apology. If they already have killed an antelope or deer, I ask them if I should call the Game Warden. This is normally without any "flashing" of my pump shotgun, but frequently carrying (holstered) a 9 mm pistol.

I also inform them of my hunting policy which allows hunting upon payment of an access fee ($125 per license, valid for the entirety of the season), and that all they needed do was call at the house. Most of the times it's been a no problem resolution; I accept an apology and away they go, and in the case of having killed an animal--collecting my fees.

One individual chose to argue about the land ownership, ranting that he was on BLM land, and not private. I then confronted him with the "big, bad Winchester" 12 gauge and ordered him to place his rifle on the ground while I called the Sheriff. I made him sit on the ground about 20 feet away from his rifle and called both Game Warden and Sheriff. End of problem.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
Yeah, philo, Mr. Irony.

You're not anti-jewish, you're just anti-Israel.

And you never do anything wrong as long as you can manage to sweep it under the carpet and un-remember it.

pfft
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
Ill check that Brokedown..

I have. And that includes USFS and personal time.

I have had standoffs with crazed ranchers that cant even speak the language.

Ive had standoffs with drunken yeehaws and you NEVER know about them.

Myself and CHP and Alpine County served a FED warrant in an Indian colony against a family KNOWN for extreme mayhem. And the high powered weaponry was everywhere.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Dude! Now Rodger that totally rocks. And I know that several posters had their heads explode. But that is totally appropriate given the set of circumstances you were involved with.
I think I would have done much the same. I just draw the line on some right to pack weaponry into movie theaters and such.
But I also agree that this use of "lethal force" was questionable.


Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
"We need more Andy Griffith and less Barney Fife."

Pretty spot on in this case, elsewhere it's becoming increasingly "More Andy Griffith, less SEAL team 6"
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
Barney Fife carried a gun and one round of ammo in his shirt pocket.

That might be a bit much for some rangers.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
I see some here think there isnt a need for LEOS in the wildlands.

Funny that a rock trundling incident in the UTAH park area garnished such a fevered reaction to the scout masters- with all manner of THREATS issued their way. So it seems human welfare doesnt garnish that same reaction.

I reckon it was the bicycle people who were at fault- they shouldnt have felt threatened by the poor little hitchhiker nor should they have reported him. Just like that traffic that he was making swerve to avoid his dumb self in the middle of the road.

And how many bodies have been discovered in that area over the years? We are talking about JUST OUTSIDE of VEGAS..The capitol of capitol offenses in the state.


Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Yes Ron, that is exactly what everyone thinks. Since they used excessive force on this one guy, there should be no backcountry LEOs at all, anywhere. You pretty much nailed it. Good job.

Credit: Braunini

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
Ok,, then they shouldnt be armed? What is exactly, the message.?

That they should have used a shotgun on him? (Brokedowns reference)

Would a shotgun at close range be any less lethal than a 9mm or AR .223?


Or should they have started beating him - and remember the guy SHOOK OFF MULTPILT TAZER DEPLOYMENTS - that in and of itself is a WONDER in my book. I voluntarily took a shock to see what it was about. Nearly shyt myself, and couldnt move. Couldnt talk, couldnt THINK. That guy took multiples..










Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
Yes, with rubber buckshot.



edit: Ron , you are supposed to add "edit" when you edit and add.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Shotgun with beanbags

Or a baton to the nuts as previously mentioned

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
am worried about how readily the LEOs resorted to lethal force. Yes.

Readily... only after multiple taser shots, pepper spray, and batons.

trying to "subdue" an individual without sufficient force available

If multiple taser shots, pepper spray, and batons isn't sufficient force... what do you suggest they try next time? Oh, right, broken knee caps. As pointed out before, there is a huge difference between drunk soldiers and nut jobs who shake off multiple tasers, pepper spray, and baton smacks and still put up a fight.

How many here have ever held a person at gunpoint?

I've been held at gun point, more than once. I never forced the situation(s) and I never got shot. It is called sanity. Going for an officer's gun... no matter WHAT the situation... is not sane and is a direct threat to the life of the officer and everyone in the vicinity. Nobody forced the fool to go for the gun... NOBODY.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
Sigh! I'm making this (honest!) my final comment:

A shotgun can be used in a non-lethal manner a priori to blasting the malefactor in either the face or chest. Granted, the "recipient" of some OOO buckshot will definitely be in some violent pain and discomfort. Prison guards are taught to fire a first blast at the ground in front of the target , depending on the ricochets to wound; second blast at knee level, and only if the target persists--center of mass.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
I still say there isn't enough info, but obviously there is enough for many to rush to judgement.

A sad way to end one's life any way you slice it.

People are gonna play Coulda Woulda Shoulda with this for years.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Has anyone else here been tazed voluntarily?


It is UNBELIEVABLE that multiple tazer deployments were shook off by ANYONE no matter what they were on. And you can bet that is exactly what the officers also thought at that time. They, not having hours to contemplate, analyze and scrutinize. They had but SECONDS to react when the perp jumped in the NHP rig going for the gun after yelling he was going to KILL them.

They had exhausted the NON LETHAL options my friends.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
This whole discourse is making me sound like a bleeding heart liberal---which I'm not! My BIG concern is the escalation of violence BY our LEOs who are supposed to "Protect and Serve." They. Aren't.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
exhausted the non lethal options is a strong statement

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Hey Ron, you being voluntarily tased explains a lot.
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
you can't give a beanbag gun to every cop out there. Its just not logistically practical.

I still have a problem with the way the highway patrolman drove up on the guy. I don't believe that I would have handled it that way. But hindsight is 2020. This wasn't like a suspect potentially escaping in a vehicle. He was on foot. So why park so close and put your vehicle into the mix?

Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
You absolutely can. It's not a special gun, it's a beanbag round for a stock 12 gauge.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
Of course, now we know that when there are witness statements that contradict the story that the police give on what happened prior to a shooting, we now have to factor in the CERTAINTY that if the cops think that a person should be executed, that they consider it their job to make that judgement, and carry out the execution ASAP.

Sometimes that means effing up a witnesses life, too. But that is "collateral damage"---javascript:doSave();-to save them, we had to kill them.

Maybe the perp WASN'T in the running, armed police car, but placed there?

Maybe he was tased and pepper sprayed AFTER he was shot?

Opens up all sorts of possibilities......
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
You absolutely can. It's not a special gun, it's a beanbag round for a stock 12 gauge.

oops.. didn't know that. thanks for the heads up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Reno Narcotics officer found dead in a ditch

Four yr old girls body discovered in a drain pipe along the road

Near dead homosexual found beaten severly at summit one

So you start to think about people who are oriented and trained in violence, and think about it every day. Who think that they are the reasonable decider of death. Who typically are conservative to the extreme, and need to protect their community from deviants........

And you start to wonder where the police were actually located the day of those crimes.........
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
What makes you think bean bags are going to work if a taser, pepper spray, and baton didn't? He was unresponsive to pain. Officers don't carry bean bags rounds because tasers, pepper spray, and batons work better. Policy specifically excludes shooting at anything other than center of mass with a firearm. Firearms are used only when deadly force is the intention.

Every alternative proposed so far in this thread either relies on technology that doesn't exist, non deadly methods that are less effective than the ones employed, the suspect being rational which he clearly wasn't, unsafe actions that directly violate well considered and reasonable policy, or time that the officers didn't have.
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
or time that the officers didn't have.

which was why I was bringing up the whole vehicle thing. If the guy didn't get access to that vehicle, then they might have had more time.

and I am not trying to blame the cop. If that was his training, then its a training issue. I am also not saying it was absolutely wrong. I'm trying to discuss it so that I can understand.

Would a bing bag round have knocked him down so that they had more time? Even if he was oblivious to the pain. On the ground seems like a good thing.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
Anecdotal response regarding bean bag rounds: My hospital/work had an incident where pepper spray and multiple tazers didn't do the trick on a psychotic and very dangerous and strong patient. Bean bag rounds worked in that case, and good thing since you will have heard about the Vegas alternative had it gone down in a hospital. That said, f*#k if I know.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT

What makes you think bean bags are going to work if a taser, pepper spray, and baton didn't? He was unresponsive to pain. Officers don't carry bean bags rounds because tasers, pepper spray, and batons work better.

lol OK dude


clearly you and ron are the only guys on the whole internet who have any experience in this area


preach on
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
KEn M, its called EXPERIENCE. And YES those officers are more trained and more in the know than you. Are you saying that the UNTRAINED amateur is a better judge of when lethal force is needed?


I guess following that logic,, a noob gym climber is far better knowledged than a Jim Donini in alpine theaters.


edit: and your "conservative to the extreme" comment doesnt even deserve a response.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
You can hit harder with a baton than you can with a bean bag round. I'm inclined to think if he was unaffected by the baton bean bags would not have done the trick. Maybe the extra distance they allow would have helped. Regardless, they aren't standard issue because the other intermediate defensive tools used are more effective.

Again, maybe they could have had more time if they approached the situation differently, but they acted reasonably and they don't have the benefit of unlimited time and hindsight. Given the totality of the circumstances, they acted appropriately. Rerun that scenario with 100 different cops and I bet the outcome is the same the vast majority of the time.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
which is a problem
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
Think about it braunini, force is the same on both ends of a shotgun, does the kick of a 12 gauge knock over a large adult male? Bean bag rounds rely on pain, there isn't enough force to physically disable an adult man who has no response to pain.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
He was hit with multiple tazer deployments. Did you hear that?

MULTIPLE. And a that point ANY SANE individual would think-- Holy SH#TE MAN! And you WOULD back off a bit to reconsider strategy at that moment. And at that some moment the perp decides hes going to kill the officers and jumps into the NHP rig. What ya gonna do.

The TAZER being the preferred/recommended non lethal means. The perp had the resistance of a RHINO..
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Disingenuous, franky, the mass of the shotgun absorbs the energy slowing down the "kick" compared to the bag.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
franky and ron -


you are still assuming that you two are the only ones having the background to have an opinion here

my experience with bean bag rounds leads me to strongly disagree with you and i will leave it at that
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
we don't need to open up a physics debate too. The momentum of the gun and bullet will be equal and opposite. The bullet will have more kinetic energy than the gun, but that will not make it significantly better at knocking a person over than the kick of the shotgun. (Because momentum must also be conserved when the bullet strikes it's target, despite the bullet having lots of kinetic energy)

Edit... Tossed in the parenthesis just to clear up the point I was making a bit
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
Well, it kind of is a physics debate if you want people to take you seriously.


While you are thinking about how to answer that, since you are probably a cop, see if you can identify where your use of force continuum model failed in this particular scenario and form your response around that.



BrentA

Gym climber
Roca Rojo
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
No cellphone video = no awareness/debate/supertopo thread

The point I find most interesting in all this.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Understand that the argument you are making is largely immaterial anyway because they almost certainly didn't have bean bag rounds and didn't have time to get them. Also understand that unless the person shot with bean bag rounds in your experience had a diminished pain response, you're comparing apples to oranges.

We can never be sure they wouldn't have helped, but I think it's unlikely and folks are grasping at straws. They tried three normally highly effective intermediate defensive weapons!
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
I understand that you are shifting axis since you don't have any valid responses. Good tactic.


BrentA: Excellent point.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Not a cop, the use of force model worked well in this situation, and I put a sufficient amount of physics in my previous post to explain myself in regards to the bean bag.

I do believe we are beating a dead horse at this point, and without something new, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
Bean bag rounds are nearly useless from 20 feet or more- extremely inaccurate. In close they can deliver a fatal blow even to center mass. In VERY close, they will kill. They can punch ribs into lungs, crush skulls even. THAT is why TAZERS are the preferred non lethal weapon.


and rubber bullets can be taken by anyone at 20 feet or more.





Adn He^^^^^ wasnt on some mind altering drug at the time.



It is taught, in every CCW class there is, that IF you have to draw that concealed weapon it is to be used until the threat is removed. No non-lethal rounds are suggested at any time in those classes. Holow points being the preferred round, as they dont go through a person and possibly causing collateral damage.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
Uh oh franky -- your credibility just took a dump with that admission.


Ron: well

keep on keeping on man
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Fortunately none of the arguments I've made rely on me having an expert opinion, in my opinion. ;)
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
(actually a couple of them kind of do)

FYI
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
The larger the mass being hit, the LESS effect ANY round has. Thats why you dont hunt cape buffalo with bb guns.

No credit is given the officers here in obvious drawn out attempts to talk, then baton then taze this individual. But they did just that and used all means available to them at that time.

Officers have been killed by attempting to tangle with deranged perps. Sometimes with their own guns. Plenty of youtube vids to prove this point.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
KEn M, its called EXPERIENCE. And YES those officers are more trained and more in the know than you. Are you saying that the UNTRAINED amateur is a better judge of when lethal force is needed?

Rong, in your drug-crazed mind, you have gone off the tracks!

We are discussing the issue of what really happened, the truth of the situation.

You have borne witness to the actual fact that cops will execute prisoners if, in the sole opinion of the cops, the prisoner deserves to die. We ALL KNOW, because we've all seen instances of it, that cops will lie in official documents to cover up their murders.

So YES, they have more EXPERIENCE in covering up crimes they commit. They often carry "throw-away" guns, to enable such cover-ups. They have a process through their union that allows them to "get their stories straight" before interrogation.

Are they more trained and in the know that me? I dunno. When I taught Felony Stops and unarmed combat at the CHP Academy in Sacto, a lot of the cops were not well trained in making decisions.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Credit: Braunini

Nah we're just funnin
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
KenM my name is RON, and i do NOT HAVE A DRUG CRAZED MIND.

Now since ive taken a road one contour up from you, if you wish further response from me your going to have to hike for it.

And i taught the "Host program" in the USFS, because i was GOOD at being a HOST.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
That's just like, your opinion, man

And just so y'all know, I fully agree that cops make mistakes, and some of them don't have integrity which is a mandatory requirement of the job.

That being said, I think most of you are having a knee jerk reaction to a person who had mental/drug issues getting killed. It's understandable. I just believe that in this situation, the police acted correctly. If a person like that is out on the street this is an unfortunate possibility. Take care of your friends and family, consider this when you form your opinion about social welfare programs, and hope this kind of stuff won't happen in the future, but don't hate the cops for doing what they did in this situation.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
edit: nice ninja edit ^^ No one is hating on cops. I work with all kinds of different cops, I train cops in certain skill sets. This particular situation should have been handled better and I think the public has the right to expect that.

Credit: Braunini
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
exposing his bean bags?^^



EDIT: And again at the very root of a problem, i firmly believe, is the LACK of a natural family unit being the norm nowadays.

The mother of the Perp, with a different name, as usual. This is COMMON place. The Dad? Has not been heard from at all in any reports i can find.
Society has many ills these days. And when kids raise themselves, it is often with dire consequence to them and others. Then comes the media, with pictures of perps from younger days all dressed up smiling sooo nicely- remember Flashbangs rolling stone cover? This is to manipulate reaction.



edit: example ,,,---headlines from this incident from various media outlets.



" Hitchhiker is killed by BLM officers"


and this beauty--" Man shot by BLM officers as he SAT IN THE PATROL CAR"


complete hogwash.




Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
And i taught the "Host program" in the USFS, because i was GOOD at being a HOST.

Shame you weren't better at being a LEO......

I dunno where you get off taking the "high road" position, when you have admitted that cops murder people, when they think it's a good idea.

It's the type of thing that makes all cop statements in these situations seem worth of great skepticism.

It's why OJ walked....the cops lied in court.

They will lie if it is in their interest, just like anybody else.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
EDIT: And again at the very root of a problem, i firmly believe, is the LACK of a natural family unit being the norm nowadays.

The mother of the Perp, with a different name, as usual. This is COMMON place. The Dad? Has not been heard from at all in any reports i can find.
Society has many ills these days. And when kids raise themselves, it is often with dire consequence to them and others. Then comes the media, with pictures of perps from younger days all dressed up smiling sooo nicely- remember Flashbangs rolling stone cover? This is to manipulate reaction.

if this doesn't embarrass you it should
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
Really? Well, in the 60s THE LAST THING anyone thought about was a grade schooler bringing a gun to school to shoot up the place. Not so now.

We had a recent middle school shooting in Sparks where a teacher was killed and other students wounded by a young gun toting KID. Whos parents may come up on charges.

And at the root- is an attempt to "save children" from anything that could possibly injure them- a noble effort at first glance. But taking away things like tinker toys, erector sets, and chemistry sets only delays what a child WILL FACE in real life down a short road. Then,, NOT training youths about the real life seriousness about weaponry when their are weapons in the home is again letting them to their OWN devices to discover that. And that is what they do. Through the most violent video games sick minds can come up with. Dont believe me, go to a range, watch some youngster put five in the kill zone of a target with only Nintendo experience.


My family had multiple weapons in the home and they werent locked in a safe. We WERE trained early on the proper use of those, and the seriousness of them. Not so these days.

In high school myself and all of my buddies brought guns to school in our vehicles to go hunting right after classes let out - not so any more.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
run up your post count dude.

what do you want to talk about now?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
Not that YOUR NOT a reason my post count goes up eh?


edit: but i will give in to you guys.. They should have whispered him into control, perhaps offering him a snack, cold drink or beer. They should have let him roam on a highway to do as he pleased. And then they shouldnt have wiped the smear of what was left of him on the road after being hit by a car. The crows and such would have handled that fine.

R Anderson, former LEO , USFS , former NDOT road crew worker.

over n out.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
edit: thanks for the ninja edit resume. ^^^^

like Locker I think you are incapable of not responding.

let's test my theory
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
good job so far, it's been four minutes





fight it ron
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
In high school my friend's dad got his head blown off when he answered the door. My friend was a prime suspect, being 16 and a bit rebellious. Years later a retired cop on his death bed (cancer or some shit) admitted to shooting my friend's dad because of a woman and some coke $... or some sh#t like that.

The above story is just as irrelevant to this particular case as most of the other sh#t in this thread. There are bad cops out there, but they are the minority... just like climate scientists who deny anthropogenic climate change.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
I'm a Ph.D. scientist and I firmly deny anthropogenic climate change. By the way Edward Teller, "Father of the H-Bomb" also denies anthropogenic climate change.

But why on Earth was Locker brought into this discussion? He has friends here at this site...well...at LEAST one... ;)
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
Hey Brokedown, Galileo was a settled science denier, too.

Remember what they did to him....

:)
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
One thing the park rangers probably didn't do wrong is cause global warming
STEEVEE

Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
I think pig farms are a major contributor to green house gas.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Finally someone with reserve volunteer fire department combat time to give us the down low!


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
There's always an elephant in every room.

Extreme mental illness was once something administered by local municipal, state/ province or federal government in both the USA and Canada. It was once thought it could be no other way because only the weight of government could impose general social order by using the community chest to institutionalize and care for people dangerously beyond reason.

Enter the fuzzy, feel good religion based policy of Community Care. This was a commercial run at lowering general tax obligation and dismantling the suspect facilities that were intended to care for troubled people. The facilities were occupying prime real estate.

It wasn't about integration because all the self-tortured were kicked to the curb and found that the true mercy of community care equaled being self medicated and homeless.

The most insidious part is how sitting back and doing nothing has led many people who care about individuals suffering mentally, also logically agree with order being restored at the end of a weapon when some one runs amok.

I'm one of those people and it is an opinion I never had to have before the dismantling of mental health care as a tax saving expedient that started in the middle 1980's.
ground_up

Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
Feb 23, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
Good thing I didn't become an LEO , I'd shoot some idiot daily
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 23, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
I'm a Ph.D. scientist and I firmly deny anthropogenic climate change.

Yeah, what field did you study? I know a guy with a PhD in Chemistry, something to do with super conductors, who denies evolution... he's never taken a Paleontology, Evolution, or related Biology class or spent any time critically evaluating the subject. He just firmly denies it because he "knows" evolution isn't true.

Just like you KNOW these LEOs were wrong... and I KNOW if anyone goes for a cop's gun they get shot and deserve it.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
I only took the easy way out with a degree in Physical Chemistry. As an undergrad at CU I also had 4 minors: German, Anthropology, Mathematics, and Physics.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Feb 23, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
So what remedy before lethal force would you suggest regarding someone high and homeless, telling an officer that they are Jesus Christ and are here to anoint you all, Jeff ?

Logic says they are at a disadvantage concerning making better choices.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 23, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
Brokedown

I'm not doubting your intelligence, just wondering what exposure you have had to actual climate/earth science.

I have a PhD in Earth Science and a very strong background in isotope geochemistry. If someone claimed there was a new high temperature superconductor (or other aspect of physical chemistry), I wouldn't expect anyone to take my firm denial of its existence seriously, especially without me proving I had spent a great deal of time studying the specific subject.


drunkone
... several times I was about to shoot suspects and they made better choices to comply with my orders.

And if they hadn't made better choices, they would deserve to have been shot. Unless of course you were ordering a hummer... in which case you should be fired.

Deserved: merited or earned
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
Reality and it's propellents are time sensitive !

I'm only posting this in a generational way...
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 23, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
mechrist-

I'm also a pretty well versed amateur astronomer, and have a very good appreciation of weather (thanks to the FAA and my pilot training). And yes, I've taken some Geology courses in the past. I also read something like 300 books a year on a very wide variety of subjects.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
Credit: drljefe
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 23, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
I'm just saying...

I wouldn't expect anyone to take [me] seriously, especially without me proving I had spent a great deal of time studying the specific subject.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Feb 24, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
Those three LEOs couldn't take down one guy without shooting him to death. But these LEOs set an example for them by easily taking down this hardened criminal:

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 24, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
^^^
That was the fashion police. Took her down for those awful "five finger" barefooter shoe things. Thanks be to jah.

a lot of the cops were not well trained in making decisions.

C'mon now, they make hard decisions every day. Jelly or cream filled? Frosted or glazed? How about sprinkles?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 24, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
One less jogging jaywalker. Whew aren't we now safer?

"Mam are you carrying any concealed weapons that could be conceived as a threat to myself or officer Dunkin' Donuts here?" "Don't you get sassy with me little missy".

Does her screams for attention constitute non-compliance?
Does non-compliance constitute resisting arrest?
Does resisting arrest justify excessive use of force?
Does non-compliance in the face of excessive use of force justify lethal reponse?


Does a citizenship that can turn a lame view toward excesses of power run the risk of bumbling Itself into a Police State?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 24, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
I wouldn't expect anyone to take [me] seriously, especially without me proving I had spent a great deal of time studying the specific subject.

For what it's worth, the degree to which I take a post (as opposed to a poster) seriously depends on the arguments and evidence presented to make the point. It's only when the evidence offered is the personal experience or opinion of the poster that the poster's qualifications become relevant.

To bring this discussion back to the BLM LEO's actions, the posts on this thread by those with significant LEO experience about what actions and reactions an LEO is capable of doing mean more to me than speculation by non-LEO's about what any LOE should or should be able to do.

John
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 24, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
I'm a Ph.D. scientist and I firmly deny anthropogenic climate change. By the way Edward Teller, "Father of the H-Bomb" also denies anthropogenic climate change.


Hate to tell you this, but Teller's dead, I doubt he denies much of anything these days!
(Maybe you just made a typo a meant to write "denied," but it's an important distinction in any event: what a particular scientist thought at one time may have changed 10 years later.)

JohnE--what cops think about a shooting may mean something different from what non-cops think, but it doesn't mean that cops are more "right."
Cops have a bias to minimize personal risk, even if that minimization causes a lot of collateral damage.
The judgment of society as-a-whole as to when lethal force is justified may not equal the judgment of cops.
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 24, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
Philo,
this video you posted is even worse than the one that started the thread.

What do we have? We have police contacting, detaining, and arresting a citizen. We have another citizen on the street filming.

What do we not have?
We don't have any of the background information necessary to understand what we're seeing. Does she have a warrant? Is she a suspect? Does she match a description of a subject police are to contact? Was the police contact generated by a citizen complaint? What was the exchange between her and the cop?

We also do not have an uncut document that shows the contact, exchange, detainment, statement of charges and subsequent arrest of the woman. we cannot see how much of the contact was consensual. Instead we have a choppy, incomplete video, punctuated by still photos.

There is simply not enough information for an outside observer to make any judgement based on what's provided here.
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 24, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Furthermore, I want to address some of your statements. I am not attacking you. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I want to make a point. This thread is filled with broad-brush statements and comments made based on popular culture imagery. Examples:

"One less jogging jaywalker. Whew aren't we now safer?"
We have no idea why this woman was contacted. Perhaps police were looking for a woman who matched that description for any number of reasons. She may have shoplifted, left a domestic violence scene, or any of a million other reasons to warrant police contact. The fact that she was crossing a street may be of no signifigance. She had to be somewhere, right?


"Mam are you carrying any concealed weapons that could be conceived as a threat to myself or officer Dunkin' Donuts here?" "Don't you get sassy with me little missy".
This is a fantasy exchange that likely didn't happen. Many cops are avid shooters and 2nd Amendment supporters. Cops have gone so far as to form groups such as Oath Keepers, declaring their allegiance to the US Constitution, and vowing not to support local legislation that flies in the face of that document. The inclusion of donuts, demeaning sexist language, implied paranoia, is also conjecture at best and a parade of pop culture images. The inclusion of these sentences has no relevance to the video that you posted.

"Does her screams for attention constitute non-compliance?"
Of course they do not. Nor do they mean the cops are doing anything outside the law or outside of what the tax payers hired them to do. Hysterics and histrionics do not equate to guilt or innocence.

"Does non-compliance constitute resisting arrest?"
You should look up the statutes for this locality to get your answer.
This is the closest I could find:
-Tex PE Code Ann 38.03 (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally prevents or obstructs a person he knows is a peace officer or a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction from effecting an arrest, search, or transportation of the actor or another by using force against the peace officer or another.-



"Does resisting arrest justify excessive use of force?"
Situationally dependent. Do you see excessive force in the video? I didn't. The presence of a lot of cops is irrelevant.

"Does non-compliance in the face of excessive use of force justify lethal reponse?"
They drove a living breathing screaming woman away in a car. Are you still talking about the video you posted?


"Does a citizenship that can turn a lame view toward excesses of power run the risk of bumbling Itself into a Police State?"
So based on the above video, we are now at a Police State level?

Don't get me wrong. Your concerns are valid. But please don't water down real concerns by posting a video like this and using it a springboard to compare modern American policing efforts to a uniform Gestapo-esque plot.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 24, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Hate to tell you this, but Teller's dead, I doubt he denies much of anything these days!
Blahblah

Teller denies he's dead. Blames it on alien Communists that could have been deterred by a proper deployment of Star Wars technology.

Seriously, Teller, though brillant, was a pompous, facist dickhead, who was one of the models for Dr. Strangelove, and was largely responsible for getting Oppenheimer blacklisted. And as far as I know, not an expert on atmospheric science, except perhaps as to how it related to upper atomsphere thermonuclear testing.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 24, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
LOL.
I knew very little about Teller other than I thought it was surprising that someone with a high-ranking position in WWII could still be alive and commenting on things of public interest (and of course, he's not).
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 24, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
No kidding. WWII era folks I know who are still kicking are mostly commenting about kids, and how they should depart their lawn, post haste. And pull up yer pants!

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 24, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
Speelyei I'm cool with your comments. Mine were tongue in cheek.
For the record the back story on this video is well known.
Austin is trying new initiatives to increase pedestrian safety.
It's their new big deal. This girl was jogging and had the temerity to jaywalk past the cops. The apprehended her and arrested her for not producing identification.
Carry on.
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 24, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
Good, I'm glad you didn't misinterpret me.

I'll look up some background on the video....

Ok, read a couple articles. Huh.
Here's my take... The law is written in black and white, yet few people ever take time to familiarize themselves with the laws that effect them daily. Instead most people operate on a sort of colloquial understanding of the law and conventionally expected behavior. Also most law abiding citizens have very limited or minimal contact with cops and their knowledge base is built off TV, movies, and anecdotal experience.

In Arizona you are required by law to identify yourself truthfully to an officer if legally detained. Even though "nobody ever gets a ticket for jaywalking", if it's illegal in your community and you do it, you have given cops all the reason they need to legally and justifiably contact and detain you. I'll bet that's what happened here. Then she apparently misunderstood her rights and obligations or was simply hoping she could buffalo the officer. Obviously, it didn't go well for her.

Once I was riding with my buddy ( in our teens) and he got a speeding ticket. In retrospect the cop was pretty cool about the whole thing and the ticket was warranted. But we talked the whole way home about what an as#@&%e he was and all the reasons the ticket was bullsh#t. My buddy went to court to contest it. Well, to make a long story short, the ticket was upheld and I learned a valuable lesson, watching my buddy make a fool of himself in front of the judge.

speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 24, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
Reading a couple more articles, I bet the cops have been directed to focus on specific infractions as part of the pedestrian safety effort.
I bet they're thrilled... Now in addition to the usual dv's, possession, warrants, death investigations, shoplifts, noise complaints, orders of protection, criminal damages, burglary, trespasses, found property, lost property, private property vehicle accidents, child protective services assists, court appearances, and other fun stuff, now they're supposed to bust jaywalkers, bicyclists, and crosswalk violators?

Have fun with that.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 24, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Reading a couple more articles, I bet the cops have been directed to focus on specific infractions as part of the pedestrian safety effort.
I bet they're thrilled... Now in addition to the usual dv's, possession, warrants, death investigations, shoplifts, noise complaints, orders of protection, criminal damages, burglary, trespasses, found property, lost property, private property vehicle accidents, child protective services assists, court appearances, and other fun stuff, now they're supposed to bust jaywalkers, bicyclists, and crosswalk violators?

Have fun with that.

You forgot to add donut eating, cruising around on their Harleys if they're motorcycle cops, jaw'n with their cop buds, etc. etc. Real tough job.

Keep in mind that they show up, work their shift (basically just driving around sorta enforcing traffic laws and not trying very hard to pretend to care when someone reports a crime), and then they go home. If the crime doesn't get solved (which is almost always the case), oh well, that's really not their problem.

It's not like they have a "real job" where work needs to get done, regardless of what time it is or how many hours you've worked so far.
If you don't "get it," chances are you've never had a "real job."
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 24, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
Word, blahblah!

Cops and teachers, the laziest people in the world!



















.... yeah, right.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
We have no idea why this woman was contacted. Perhaps police were looking for a woman who matched that description for any number of reasons. She may have shoplifted, left a domestic violence scene, or any of a million other reasons to warrant police contact. The fact that she was crossing a street may be of no signifigance. She had to be somewhere, right?

This one is pretty much
gestapo-esque
when you hear the comments from their boss.



Hey,

They didn't rape her after all.

What a moroon!


in another case from a few weeks ago,

http://bearingarms.com/bad-shoot-detective-that-claimed-we-dont-have-time-for-this-before-killing-90-pound-teen-is-indicted/


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2014 - 02:40am PT
In Arizona you are required by law to identify yourself truthfully to an officer if legally detained. Even though "nobody ever gets a ticket for jaywalking", if it's illegal in your community and you do it, you have given cops all the reason they need to legally and justifiably contact and detain you. I'll bet that's what happened here.

This is NOT the same as being required to produce acceptable ID.

Are you stating that in AZ it is ILLEGAL to be present in the state without a state-accepted ID? In your own home? In a hotel room? At the hotel pool?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2014 - 10:37am PT
what cops think about a shooting may mean something different from what non-cops think, but it doesn't mean that cops are more "right."

What climbers and non-climbers think about a cam placement may mean something different. I trust a climber's opinion over a non-climber's any day when our lives and/or safety are at risk.
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 25, 2014 - 10:44am PT
No Ken, I wrote it clearly. You are not required or expected to have id on you at all times.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 25, 2014 - 11:00am PT
LasVegas police have an article in the news this am that they will no longer respond to fender bender type accidents where the partys are willing to give each other insurance info. It seems they are stretched to the limits now.



And addressing a poster upthread that says cops dont work - in the USFS when i busted some timber or fire wood thief, the work had only begun at that time.
I was under orders by the FED magistrate that NO fruits of the crime could be left in the possession of the perp or perps. What this meant was that I had to get ,,for example, 31 cords of GREEN ROUNDS from the site to a storage area as confiscated forest products. Or a flat bed worth of green LOGS to the tune of 35K board feet. Or 1100 freshly cut Xmas trees for instance. Try loading 40" green rounds into your patrol trucks and youll know what work is..
speelyei

Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
Feb 25, 2014 - 11:04am PT
Ron, blahblah was trolling there. Don't swing at every pitch Amigo!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2014 - 11:31am PT
No Ken, I wrote it clearly. You are not required or expected to have id on you at all times.

And yet......that was what she was arrested for. According to the Chief of Police:

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/austin-police-chief-art-acevedo-jaywalker-was-arre/ndXcz/

Acevedo said he reviewed audio recordings and written reports of the arrest of Amanda Jo Stephen, 24, on a charge of failure to identify.

Stephen used profanity when speaking with officers, leading officers to handcuff her.

Ah, the law against profanity.

Only after screaming at officers and being placed in the pack of a police vehicle did Stephen provide her name.

Oh, wait a minute. She did not commit the crime for which she was charged?

When they finally stopped her, she “was resisting and wouldn’t provide identification,” the spokeswoman said.

"provide identification"?

Hmmmm.

but I am most bothered by the concept of a college student, jogging in her college community, being grabbed by a man that she cannot see, and gets accused of resisting arrest for pulling away.

what's reasonable here?

What do you teach your children to do if grabbed by an unknown adult?

what should they do?

What should women do if someone places hands on them that they cannot see...on a bus, in a crowd?

Hmmmm.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 25, 2014 - 11:36am PT
No Ken, I wrote it clearly. You are not required or expected to have id on you at all times.

NOT NECESSARILY TRUE!

Under Arizona's SB1070 law, legal aliens are committing a crime if they do not "at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration", with a possible maximum sentence of six months for willful failure to comply.

The lying fascist GOP sacks of dung claimed that this was simply mirroring an existing Federal law, however the Federal law is a civil offense, not a crime (despite being passed in 1942 when there was a far more serious national security concern), and has no practical implication because the only time a federal immigration officer could request such papers would be during entry into the US.

I was a green card holder when that law was passed, making it illegal to take a shower without carrying my ID, requiring me to carry my green card with me hiking or climbing, and although I am now a citizen, until that law is repealed Arizona won't see a penny of my climbing and hiking tourist dollars.

TE
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 25, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Illegal Aliens IS A CRIME. Thus the word ILLEGAL as a prefix. Without BORDERS you have NO COUNTRY.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 25, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
TradEddie writes:

"Under Arizona's SB1070 law, legal aliens are committing a crime if they do not "at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration", with a possible maximum sentence of six months for willful failure to comply."




That's no different from Federal Law.

Right there on every Green Card it says this card "must be in your possession at all times".



BTW, when I was tending bar, a Green Card was the Gold Standard of identification. Very easy to match the card to the guy. The worst - by far - are U.S. Military ID's.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Feb 25, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
The thing that PO's me here in Santa Monica is that the police force (who are among the highest paid I've ever heard of) seem to only enforce the jaywalking, bike riding on sidewalk, loitering type laws so that they can pull someone over that they don't have a real reason to do so. If the person committing that type of infraction is an entitled looking Benz -type driver, they let them go right past. I saw a whole family with kids blow right through a stop sign with a cop right there. He told me that he didn't have the time to stop all of those kinds of infractions. But, just read the crime reporter in the local paper and most people that were busted for paraphernalia were pulled over for those same infractions. Profiling anyone?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 25, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Well Ydpl8s it's easier than fighting actual crime and doesn't cut into happy hour at the Dunkin' Donuts.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 25, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
In Manhattan, if you don't jaywalk, you'll draw suspicion of the cops.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 25, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
I agree with Philo. It is my experience that the two primary decisions that
govern pulling someone over are
1. Will I get shot?
2. Will the perp pay the fine?

I got a ticket from an LA Sheriff who was lurking in a gated area of Bradbury.
Bradbury makes Beverly Hills look like Compton. I rolled a stop sign in
the middle of the day with nary a vehicle in sight. I asked the fat phuk
if bears shat in the woods.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 25, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
No Ron, LEGAL ALIENS (i.e visa or green card holders) are committing a crime in Arizona if they do not posses their "papers" at all times. This provision was not overturned by the supreme court because until it happens to someone, there is no standing to have it overturned.

The Arizona state legislature:

http://www.azleg.gov/alispdfs/council/sb1070-hb2162.pdf

SB 1070, section 13-1509 makes it a crime to not comply with 8 USC 1304(e) or 1306(a). The Federal code requires possession of papers at all times, but violation is a civil misdemeanor and has no practical way to be enforced except when entering the county. Arizona makes this a crime at any time and any place. Secondly, if a US citizen isn't carrying ID, and a police officer can claim a reasonable suspicion that the person is an illegal "You look mighty tanned son, is that an accent, how come you don't have ID?" that citizen can be detailed until he can verify his legal status.

Prove any of this wrong and I'll remove it.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 25, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
That's no different from Federal Law.

Right there on every Green Card it says this card "must be in your possession at all times".

Half truths as usual; failure to comply with the Federal code is a civil violation, not a crime, and you can't face 6 months in prison for it.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 25, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
I agree with Philo. It is my experience that the two primary decisions that
govern pulling someone over are
1. Will I get shot?
2. Will the perp pay the fine?

I agree too, I was stopped for speeding less than 10mph over the limit within sight of drug dealers still standing on their stoops, business was not even interrupted by the presence of the cop.

Another time, in wonderful Newark NJ, I watched a whole squad of cops and tow trucks enforce a "no parking this side every third Tuesday afternoon", because that really was the biggest problem facing Newark.

Cops do a shitty job, but a small few make it so much harder for the rest.

TE
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Feb 25, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
Who can figure out Jersey? They didn't enforce the "No Parking on the Bridge" thing.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 25, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
Good one Ydpl8s.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 25, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Once in Buffalo NY, near the Docks, i STOOD next to a sign that read :

"NO STANDING anytime". I only wish i would have had a portable lawn chair as the sign DIDNT prohibit setting.. But by golly, dontcha DARE stand there LMAO! Easterners,,i reckon..
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Feb 26, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Well, at least these five cops managed to actually get a take down of this one little guy. They had to kill him, of course, (right in front of his wife) and he allegedly had not done anything wrong (but again the cops created another situation where they got to kill somebody). Just another day in the life of a LEO.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/justice/oklahoma-arrest-death-video/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 26, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
Ron, you should have taken a picture of you sitting on a chair next to the sign holding a little sign that says, "Stuck!"
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 26, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
Hhehee,,, wish had thought of that one!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 26, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
Compliance or Death.
Or Death by Compliance.

Yes your honor the perp was very compliant.
Until of course rigor-mortis kicked in.
Then we deemed him non compliant again and had to break out the axes.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 26, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
Well, at least these five cops managed to actually get a take down of this one little guy. They had to kill him, of course, (right in front of his wife) and he allegedly had not done anything wrong (but again the cops created another situation where they got to kill somebody). Just another day in the life of a LEO.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/justice/oklahoma-arrest-death-video/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Yeah, I saw that one too.
But what do we know, we're just "civilians" who can't be expected to have a reasoned opinion as to whether cops crushing someone to death is actually good police practice.
Let's just see what other cops thing about that, and if they say it's OK, it should be good enough for us.
Right?

(Sarcasm aside, it seems that they guy they crushed hadn't done anything wrong whatsoever, but the cops likely didn't know that.)
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Feb 26, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
... we're just "civilians" who can't be expected to have a reasoned opinion as to whether cops crushing someone to death is actually good police practice.

Yup, the congress, president, voters, shouldn't have any say in wars, either. The military are experts. They'll know best how to handle other countries.

In construction we say, ask a carpenter to fix something and he'll try to fix it with a hammer. Which is why we don't have any specialty tradesman running or designing projects.

The Law of the Instrument:
Abraham Maslow said in 1966, "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

A government by the people, for the people, with police being public servants... fantasy, unfortunately.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
http://vimeo.com/87438067
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 27, 2014 - 12:53am PT
Here is another police outrage:

http://www.mail.com/news/us/2679656-texas-officers-suspended-homeless-sign-contest.html#.7518-stage-subhero1-4

MIDLAND, Texas (AP) — Two police officers in an oil-rich West Texas city spent weeks competing to see who could take the most cardboard signs away from homeless people, even though panhandling doesn't violate any city law.

But it isn't the crime, it is the coverup that counts:

According to the investigation report, eight signs were found in the trunk of Hester's patrol car on Nov. 20 and Zoelzer had thrown the about 10 signs he had confiscated into a city trash container after Hester called him to warn him he had been reprimanded by his superior for having the signs.

That would be conspiracy to obstruct justice. Obstructing justice. Tampering with evidence.

But it gets better:

The two told the internal affairs investigator, that they were issuing criminal trespass warnings when they took the signs. But according to the report, no homeless people were issued criminal trespass warnings by either officer in 2013.

Lying to police investigators.

So what is done? 3 days off without pay. Months later, when convenient.

Because if you let this crap go on, then this is what results:

HOUSTON — A former Texas judge and prosecutor agreed to serve nine days in jail and surrender his law license Friday for withholding evidence in his prosecution of a man who was exonerated in 2011 after serving 25 years in prison for his wife's murder.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-judge-20131109,0,6232637.story#ixzz2uUzoU5aC[/quote]


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 27, 2014 - 01:00am PT
Well, at least these five cops managed to actually get a take down of this one little guy. They had to kill him, of course, (right in front of his wife) and he allegedly had not done anything wrong (but again the cops created another situation where they got to kill somebody). Just another day in the life of a LEO.

And the reason given? He was killed because he did not SHOW ID.
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Feb 27, 2014 - 01:08am PT
It is true police spend a lot of time performing silly services. More drunk driver road blocks would be better than pulling people over for an few miles over the speed limit.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Mar 31, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/03/31/hln-vo-albuquerque-police-violence.hln.html
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