Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 5, 2006 - 11:36am PT
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I was wrong!
I misjudged the situation. I didn't see your point of view before now.
I didn't have all the information. I didn't like the way you acted, looked, or talked but now I can see you're Ok.
Ok, maybe I still think I'm right but we can agree to disagree and continue the conversation.
Maybe I still don't like you but can't justify it, so I made up an excuse to disagree but really, it's just personal
But heck. I'm weird myself, and don't follow all the rules either. I have my own lust, greed, and live in my own world. It limits my knowledge and wisdom.
This isn't about anything in particular. I just want to make sure I can still say this stuff.
Peace
Karl
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Voltzwgn
Trad climber
Sac CA
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At least Karl will come clean now it Landis' turn, maybe Karl will share with him how good it feels.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
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Hey, I'd use performance enhancing stuff if I could afford it and if it didn't have negative side effects. I'm getting older and want to beat the rap as much as possible.
Not 12 stepping but I've seen folks benefit from that.
It's just liberating to cut the "I'm always right" crap and fess up when you screw up and are wrong.
and I LOVE to be right.
better to have some practical examples
I rented my place to a friend and his kids/friends while I went climbing on the East side. My plumbing erupted on them (cause it can handle one or two folks but not many) and buzzkilled one or two of their vacation days.
I knew my plumbing was weak and should have got it fixed, but (insert two or three semi-valid excuses here) I didn't
I am SO sorry I let me friends down cause I can be cheap and lazy.
(Don't worry about me being too hard on myself, it's all good. I suggest that with all the bashing we do here, we should get in the habit of retracting our venom once in awhile. Hint 'reardon,wos, etc')
Peace
Karl
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Jody
Mountain climber
Templeton, CA
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How come Limbaugh didn't get fired for using performance enhancers?
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Jody, I don't think underage Dominican hookers can fire YOU. Kind of the other way round. An "at will" employment situation, ya know.
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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OK, Karl, you admitted that you were (generically) wrong (for anything and everything that ever happened or will happen). OK now, we are getting somewhere BUT the real question is "Did YOU poop on that gear?"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
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Naw, Wings of Steel didn't offend me in the least. I'm not a big enough stud to get competitive.
I heard third hand who the poopers were and was disappointed cause, like all of us, they ain't all bad. I think it's a shame what happened to the FA crew though.
Sh#t Happens. Hopefully everybody involved learns some kind of lesson. It all beats dying in your basement in Lebanon.
Peace
Karl
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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"This isn't about anything in particular. I just want to make sure I can still say this stuff. "
But it is EASY to say this stuff when it isn't about something in particular. It is when it IS about something in particular that it becomes so hard. :-)
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Karl,
Great answer! Remember, sh#t happens. Maybe it just "happened" there which is not to say that would have wanted MY gear pooped upon, either. I will acknowledge the pain of the poopee.
I have a better one for you. I don't even want to know who the poopers were. I had enough time dealing with the trauma of learning that there was no Santa Claus. I am still not quite over that one yet and now this. I could not take that much trauma in one lifetime. I mean having our idols and icons shot downn in that way. Somethings are better left unknown. Or as a wise one once said - after all a child did not die, here.
How about this. What if the "poopers" got together and bought brand new gear of at least as good quality plus interest (as that which they despoiled) and sent it to the "poopees" with an anonymous but contrite note saying they were sorry and that they officially admit they were wrong. The poopees could then post the anonymous note on the internet - for all to read - and thus they could be formally vindicated.
The poopers would remain the climbing icons that they were and no one's world or heros would be have to be shattered. Best of all, no one or no ones would have to climb though the mud (or poop) and then fall on his sword for some stupid, emotional act of his youth. Everyone could then go about his life and worry about REAL problems like the *real* children who are in the middle east getting killed - on both sides of the conflict. I bet some of them would gladly trade a little poop on their gear to get their life back again.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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What the hell; there's no Santa Claus. Next thing you'll tell me there isn't a Tooth Fairy.
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Ouch!
climber
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Who among us did not do things at 18 or 19 that were so stupid, we still can't face up to them decades later. I have a bucketful.
Edit ala Locker: Hell, I'm still doing stupid things.
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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There is not but more importantly, how come no one is commenting on my proposed "solution" to this problem. I am serious here. I am not "trolling," as you all are want to say say. What do people think of my approach? Would a public but anonymous apology along with restitution of damanges (with interest) be enough? Would it be a compromise between allowing the aggrieved parties to be vindicated while permitting the other parties to maintain their dignity and not have to crawl through the mud in public for something they did 25 years ago?
Is this a reasonable compromise? Does the idea have any merit? Why or why not? Could people please comment? If it has some merit, please say so. If it is a stupid idea, please tell me why it would not work? Perhaps other people who also falsely condemned the "poopees" and past harsh judgement could even contribute (make donations) to funding the cost of the equipment (which is now just a symbol, at this point of sincere intent as well as restitution/responsibility) so the original 3 poopers, as it were, do not have to shoulder the entire cost of replacing expensive equipment which they damaged.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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OK Lois,
i suggested you put your impartial eyes to the task.
you did and asked for a response.
-probably the wings guys are the ones to best respond to any novel ideas.
landgolier has said it pretty straight: asking them what it is they really want, in the end.
to me your idea cracks the pressure in a somewhat constructive way.
i still have the impression that this is not limited to the perpetrators of misinformation and vandalism.
i think richard and mark also want some amends made for the total cultural absorption and reflection of the mis-representation of their effort. my earliest posts referenced this, perhaps not so clearly.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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That was a funny comment about Limbaugh Jody LOL
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Tarbuster,
I guess my suggestions comes from several fronts. Having been here a year or so now, I have basically formed some bonds with the "perps," although I am not exactly sure who or which ones they are. In general, however, they have become friends of sorts so obviously my first impression would be to defend them. I am annoyed that "outsiders" - the two who were wronged - are coming in and upsetting the applecart, embarrassing people I have come to like. Also, that they are carrying this thing on for 25 years annoys me as well. I mean like this is just a little much, don't you think. We are talking two and a half decades here. Frankly, it would be nice to sweep this whole thing under the carpet and forget about it.
Now having said that, my brain and sense of ethics tells me that underneath it all, they DO, have a valid point. They were wronged, to be sure and they are entitled to some restitution. That they are screaming for it for 25 years seems a bit much BUT the fact is that they were the ones upon whom a miscarriage of justice was perpetrated. They do have rights, however, irritating that fact may be to some of us.
Accordingly, it seems to me that an anononymous letter written collectively by the perps would serve as a formal and public and it would seem in order. In an ideal world, the actual persons would apologize openly (non-anonymously) but perhaps this approach is simply not realistic. Therefore an anonymous letter of apology written by the three or, however many there were who did these deeds, which was sincere, contrite and which could be published on the internet would be the next best thing. The expectation would be that the letter would be published on their website as well as here.
I believe the replacing of their gear is appropriate, as well. Gear is expensive and I am sure they spend alot of money on it. Pooping all over their gear - besides being disgusting - makes it rather unusable and they would have to replace it, at their own expense. That is not just and we all have to make ammends for our financial faux pas. If you spill wine on my dress, probably you are going to feel better if you pay the dry cleaner's bill.
Most importantly, the replacement of the gear is a concrete symbol (and an expensive one) letting everyone know that this is no hoax. The "perps" really did write the letter and bought the gear. Everyone can help their friends - "the perps" - by donating to the cause say $5 or $10, both as a show of solidarity for them and also to do their part if they bad mouthed the victims. If everyone chips in, the cost goes way down for the perps who are people's friends. I personally nominate Kath (Ms Blinny) to collect the money that people send in and hold on to it. I am quite sure she knows who did this thing anyway and she is quite integritous in terms of holding the funds in escrow.
Finally, the victims can take their gear, take (and post) their letter and (finally) *go away,* once and for all. Like enough, already! This thing has been dragging on for two and a half decades, now. The "perps" need to apologize and make restitution and the "victims" need to give it up (already!) and go on with their lives. It is really that simple. It is like Clinton's formal apology on behalf of the US for the Tuskegee atrocity. He can't change what was done by the formal apology somehow DOES made it better, on some level.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Excellent Lois,
And again, Richard and Mark need to be part of this ameliorative process: to co construct a solution.
I’d like to see this wound healed as well.
Technically speaking, one can't mediate a conflict if they are somehow associated with a side of it. This is why I asked you to put some of your formidable and earnest thought to the matter.
There are likely some people who contribute to this forum who have more working knowledge of conflict resolution than myself. i have 40 hrs training in theory and practice of conflict management but zero applicable experience. i do have an interest in its use.
Here’s a quick primer:
Positional bargaining is tit for tat. If I win some, you lose an equal amount. We dig our heels in. Bring in the lawyers and/or we'll go fisticuffs until there is a winner either by adjudication or by an agreement born out of haggling. The winner's award is directly proportional to the loser's damage.
Interest based bargaining:
You put the opponents in charge of constructing an outcome that is mutually beneficial to the needs of both parties. They have to each agree to want this at the outset or there is a no go on this type of resolution.
The idea is to "expand the pie", meaning let the parties involved really take a good look at what each has in terms of needs and constructively and analytically look at the situation to see what might be overlooked in terms of the big picture's ability to provide a mutually beneficial solution.
If that does not describe what I’m talking about then I’ll need some help.
A mediator does not provide a solution; it is crafted by the opponents.
For my part here is what I suggest:
Saving face is perhaps a big part of it.
I say let Richard and Mark concede that they may well have been doing something unorthodox for the times, i.e. aiding many pitches of blank slab, as opposed to using bolts rivets hooks to link weaknesses. This may have been visionary and by modern standards is not seen as a poor use of bolts especially in light of the widespread acceptance of rap bolting. This route was ground up and run out; much like the style of free ground up ascension which Bachar in fact “allowed”.
Likewise, the local community might concede that although this unorthodox aspect of ascension was so, the reportage was false in terms of the form and some very cutting edge style of aid was performed.
The vast cultural absorption and reflection was fallout from a verifiable degree of mis-reportage and is acknowledged as such, exactly by whom I’m not sure; perhaps a collusion of the original reporters/choppers, a lot of us at large and editors.
You toss in an apology (anonymous or otherwise) for the desecration, perhaps noting that the chopping was a common occurrence of the times, when an established tradition was seen to have been disregarded. A modern viewpoint changes things.
?
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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OK, let's see if I can help here.
I didn't poop on the gear or chop the ropes, but I wish I had.
That way I could apologize and make things better.
Or not.
Everybody happy?
Brutus, wishing the world wasn't so confusing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I think Lois' idea is a good one, but I wonder if any of the poopers feel they owe them an apology. I suspect not.
I think they just rinsed the gear off and kept going. It would be hard to grip one of those ropes in your teeth to clip, though.
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Piton Ron
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Always thinking in practical terms, Jaybro.
I like that.
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