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Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 5, 2014 - 10:58am PT
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Hunters killed 1,002 bears in California in 2013, a 48 percent decline from the number killed in 2012, according to the Sacramento Bee
Gee, what happened to the big bad bear killers in California? Couldn't afford bullets for their assault rifles?
Nope.
California bear hunters can't hunt without dogs.
A new California law banning the use of dogs in bear hunting appears to have had a dramatic effect, with fewer bears killed by hunters in 2013 than in any other year over the past two decades.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2014/01/04/6046025/new-calif-law-reduces-number-of.html#storylink=cpy
F*#kers can't hunt. That's what happened.
DMT
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Using dogs isn't hunting....who can't shoot a treed bear?
Using dogs to tree bears and mountain lions so that there owners can casually shoot them from close range is the moral equivalent of using chemical weapons on civilian populations.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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I think that coon-dogging a bear or cat into a tree is really actually quite sporting. One must follow the dogs after all, on the cross country race to the fish in the barrel.
My favorite, though, are the folks back east that cannot be bothered to chase dogs to the hapless victim in the tree, but instead offer jelly donuts for 3 weeks in a row until on the fourth: POW!
Class. This is what 'guides' do for you. Not gunna embed the video, but there are some real fine sportsmen to see on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNuv0YIWkj4
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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One of my old bosses used to hunt bears with a bow and arrow. I saw the glory pics of him all barefoot and gruff looking next to his prize. But Humboldt County is not really part of California anyways- not the part of California with movie stars and hi-tech visionaries.
Now if he had used a swiss army knife, I would have been impressed.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Yeah, hunting with dogs isn't hunting at all. Might as well fish with dynamite.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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There should be a season to use dogs for hunting rednecks.....accept their too drunk and fat to climb trees.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Amazingly, in many areas, it is still legal to set up bait stations to hunt bears. Now that's real sportsmanship for ya. These lazy bastards don't even bother chasing the dogs.
I'm not anti-hunting but that's just ridiculous.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Haha, that's funny Donini. Something tells me Ron will be here shortly.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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What makes this even worse is that most of these brave hunters don't even eat the meat. They just do it out of blood lust and compensation for a tiny pee pee.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Chewy, some of the pictures you get involve way more hunting skills than baiting and treeing animals. I am a hunter, I do eat the meat (reason why I hunt), and I like to spot and stalk. It's actually a good work out if you suck at it like me.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Ignorant billy.
Take that back.
Fightin' words.
http://www.coedu.usf.edu/culture/Story/Story_Tennessee.htm
My name is Jacob Mulloy, and I am 13 years of age. I met Davy Crockett in 1833 when he was already well known as a great hunter and a congressman in Washington. Davy lived about 25 miles from us, and my dad wanted to hunt bear with him so we would have enough food for the winter.
When Davy rode up on horseback, I was the first one to greet him. He was wearing a coonskin hat and a fur lined jacket. He brought his 8 bear-hunting dogs and his rifle (that he called Betsy). Later, he told me a hunter's best friends are his horse, his dogs, his rifle and his knife.
The best time to hunt bear is during the fall and early winter when a bear is fat and heavy. When they are fat, it difficult to run fast.
The next morning we all began our journey into the forest. The dogs ran ahead looking for the bears. About an hour later, the dogs started barking and yelping because they spotted a bear. "They have one!" Davy yelled.
The dogs were circling a large tree and looking up to where a huge black bear was perched on some branches. Bears are great climbers since they are able to grab on to the bark with their sharp claws. Davy drew his rifle from his saddle and fired. Sure enough, the great furry animal smashed to the ground. The dogs circled it looking for life, but there was none. Davy approached the animal with his hunting knife in hand in case the bear was still alive. Satisfied, he called me to look at the bear. I suddenly realized I was hunting with one of the great men of our country. I knew I would remember this experience forever.
It was six years later (in 1836) that I heard that Davy Crockett had died at the age of 49 defending the Alamo Mission in San Antonio, Texas against the Mexicans. On his tombstone is written: Davy Crockett, Pioneer, Soldier, Patriot, Trapper, Explorer, State Legislature, Congressman, martyred at the Alamo 1786 - 1836.
Map and flag of Tennessee. Nashville is the capital.
Sacramento is the western version? You live here. No disrespect, DMT, but my brother quit his evil ways years back, got divested of the pack about the time Ma Bell got raped and pillaged (Dad worked & slaved in their mine his whole life).
I'm a Merced Bear. I'm a native. I'm a climber and a bumbler, a tumbler I am not, but as a climber I have treed a few ursine cowboys who thought they could bag some of my chow. They're just dogs in the long and short...
Crockett got his, just like F*#kster.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Thanks This Just In. I love tracking and watching bears but have no interest in hurting them. Photographing bears is a lot of fun.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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This bears serious discussion.
Where's Fossil Climber?
To the Batso Cave, Dingus!
That Wayne fella can find the old ranger!
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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About a year ago I received a call from the local division of wildlife. Their wildlife officer had been tracking a mountain lion with dogs that had been sighted in town. The dogs had chased the lion way up into the backcountry and had treed the lion. The dogs had gps collars so they knew where they were. I had in the past had keys to the state park gates and snow machines that I could have helped get the officers up to the dogs but I no longer had that access.
Seems that once a dog trees a cat the dogs will hang out and eventually fall asleep. Then cats have been known to come down and eat the dogs. Not sure how the story ended but the officers were a bit panicked and wishing they were a bit fitter!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Cali's can't hunt for the same reason they can't trad climb. All but a few grew up thinkin' it's a sport.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Following a dog while hunting, be it bears, lions, hogs, foxes or birds is one of my favorite pastimes. You end up in places you would never have been if it wasn't for the dogs. Up and down canyons and hollows through thickets you have to crawl through, then back through because they have changed direction and are two miles away in a few minutes.
It is amazing to watch a good hunting dog do its thing! I get the most enjoyment at watching the dogs work. It is an experience most will never see.
And one hell of a workout!
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Photographing bears is a lot of fun.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Tell us, how do y,all feel about hunting birds with dogs? Is there a distinction?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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At Q-Ball: And the kill, is that difficult as well? What power scope do you need to hit the broad side of a bruin from sixty feet?
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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You don't need a scope, generally use the smallest caliber pistol that is legal to hunt with.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Curly's Hunting Tips
by N. Yuck
Accessorizing is such fine Fein fun.
Climb up the pine with thine gun.
Shoot the beast until he's dead,
But if you can't, then club his head.
And if he still won't go to ground,
Then kick him like you do your hound.
And if he bellows let him go,
Saying, "Eenie, meenie, mynie, Moe."
http://www.eabco.com/JSI01.html
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Brave Cowboy- Dogs make it a hell of a lot easier and are great companions that get more enjoyment than I when the critter is treed or bayed.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Q-ball- What would you say is your success rate using dogs? Let's say outta 10 hunts.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Then they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through some bushes where the rabbits woldn't go
It's the chase, not the kill, like it's the road, not the destination.
Blood sports, hunting for practical purposes, too obvious a difference to mention, except that initiation into manhood required the blood back in the day.
All in all, this is a good, brave experiment by the so-called gov't.
Ron must be out climbing in this clean weather. Sally-O doesn't look like a blood-thirsty hound, either.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Depends on the species?
Bird hunting 0-100% depends on where and when
Lion Hunting- very low for me (not much of a lion hunter)
Bears- 50%
Feral Hogs- Illegal in Tenn!!! (we trap them over bait)
Foxes- I let neighbors hunt them (hunt being they chase the foxes on horseback and don't actually kill the fox)
Squirrels- easy to tree and find, usually just tree them because my pup (Starlette) has so much fun doing it!
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Q-Ball, yes, dogs are great companions. But to me there seems to be a disconnect between hound-using hunters and the primeval past. Have you no appreciation of the times before, the times when we sought the trees to avoid being ripped slowly to shreds by hungry packs of canids? Cannot you hear that distant past and allow mercy to a treed animal?
I am tempted to ask about your weight, about whether or not you think that the shooting part should be a hell of a lot easier too, but instead I will gloat, smug in the certitude that I know better than to take candy from a baby.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Thanks, I was mostly talking about bears and 5 outta 10 is pretty good. That's nearly half the time. You can't use dogs on pigs, but can bait and trap them? That's weird, CA you can still use dogs on pigs and no one gives a sh#t about them, almost no regulations.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Brave cowboy- yes it is a hell of a lot easier with dogs, that is why they are used.
When was the last time you smelled a grouse? My dogs do all the time, and it fills my freezer because of their help!
And I weigh 125, yeas I am a skinny son of a b-cth! Thanks to my pups!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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I grew up amongst rednecks and their coon dogging ways. Drunken rabble slaughtering poor little marsupials for sport. F*#king retards.
i love you too!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Things I should have told my brother:
My brother was at the dinner table recently venting his outrage over the multiple bullet clip ban for assault rifles…. (don't quote me, but it was something along those lines). He got a rifle from my grandfather when my grandfather died. The rifle supposedly has some kind of magazine that came stock from the manufacturer that is now considered unlawful.
I felt like laughing in his face but because of his 'close to the deep end of' rednecktitude I just kept asking what the five shots on a hunting rifle were for? My thinking is/was that if a guy couldn't get what he needed in a single shot…. maybe hunting is not his thing? but maybe that's just the perfectionist in me telling myself that I'd get good enough to shoot sh#t with a single shot…. I can't expect someone with caveman qualities to understand why that may be of benefit to all concerned.
No, I get it… You don't have as big a dick now that your bullets are being taken from you… Your life is diminished somewhat because of having fewer bullets. Maybe you've been unfairly targeted for this banning of only your toys and none of the other kids toys.
YOU SAY YOU ARE A MAN BUT YOU ACT JUST LIKE A LITTLE BITCH-ASS WHEN YOU DON'T GET YOUR WAY.
I almost went so far as to suggest that he form a kind of special interest group for multi-rounded rifles so that your voice can be heard by our lawmakers.. but, oh, wait…. you already have one of those… and they do already have the ear of congress…. and still your balls have been detached.
This shows that the less a man feels the more an animal he becomes.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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I know a man that hunts (and is successful) bobcats, without dog or cage, bait or snare, by virtue of skill, patience, and cunning.
I also know a man that runs down coyotes on snowmobile, shooting them from 10 feet away, laughing about his laziness.
Stylistic differences, really. You know, like rap bolting versus actually putting in the work to go ground up.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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This just in- Tennessee has just started having a problem with feral hogs. You can use bait, traps, helicopters but no hounds! I think the state is worried that people will run deer. But it may be simple politics from folks that are not familiar with wildlife and controlling their numbers?
As for bears, TN has a short season but with good pups you can find them
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WBraun
climber
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Man is the most dangerous animal on the planet until he becomes a human being ......
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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^as usual, Werner says everything without saying anything.^
dammit man, I do not know what you mean by the sound of one hand clapping
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this just in
climber
north fork
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When hunting legally there is a real benefit to the ecosystem and hunters help fund conservation more than any other group. Having said that, humans have no breeding limits besides in China. Maybe Donini's idea should be put into play.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Brave Cowboy- I agree, most folks here sit in a tree-stand to shoot a deer. I prefer to wander around the woods.
I don't get mad at folks that have certain preferences in hunting styles as long as they follow the law. I guess we can agree on that.
As with dogs, it is about watching them work from all the folks I know
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Ron, are you really bagging on the farmer down the way that grows my good grassfed beef and buffalo as dishonest?
And on what level is bear-baiting pure?
I think that the comparison with the free solo is tenuous as well. Hands on rock only for progression should equate to hands on flesh/primitive weapon for killing. Do you hunt with an atlatl? Do you hunt with a hand-made blade? Or do you hunt with a chemically propelled metallic slug mined in China?
You are an aid climber calling yourself a soloist.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Dingus, a few hogs from a month ago. They tear up the environment as much as I do! I hope we can keep the numbers down.
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perswig
climber
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This question is coming up for referendum (again) here in Maine this year.
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/08/07/politics/groups-join-in-effort-for-new-maine-bear-hunting-referendum/
http://savemainesbearhunt.com/
http://www.sportsmansallianceofmaine.org/bearref.html
Unfortunately, the debate often devolves into all-or-nothing polarity, claims of nonresident political funding, and anecdotal negative bear/human encounter tales. On an individual basis, I get the feeling non-bear hunters (and maybe Wardens?) here generally feel sheepish about the methods but very cognizant of the employment and financial aspects of the Maine bear hunt as it applies to the economically-challenged northern parts of our state. That being said, I'm wondering whether, like the deer herd, bear populations might be moving south into the more urban part of the state, which could substantially change the equation.
Bear fat makes really good pie crust.
Anyone read Zane Grey's essays "Roping Lions in the Grand Canyon" and "Don, the Story of a Lion Dog"? (I'm betting Piton Ron has...).
Dale
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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NEWS FLASH!!! Humans no longer depend on hunting/gathering for sustenance. That said...sustainable hunting for meat is far more acceptable than trophy hunting. Trophy hunting, especially for non-edible apex predators, is reprehensible.
edit: WOW.....that leopard must weigh nearly 35 pounds!
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Brave cowboy- Bear baiting is legal in many states.
being pure, what does that mean? If you want to legally kill a bear?
If you are simply against bear hunting just state that. The end of any successful lawfully conducted hunt is a dead critter. So why does the method seem so important to you?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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How do you anti-hunting carnivores like your high-density feedlot raised cheeseburgers? I wish I had a meat tree growing in my backyard
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Dingus- you have shown all your cards with the last statement on Hogs. If you are simply anti hunting just say it.
Or maybe you are just ignorant?
PS- Dingus, I hunt Poachers all day long and all night
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Q-Ball, I was addressing Ron A, and he chose to ignore my response to his suggestion that hunting is the one true pure path to meat. Thanks for your response but I was really curious as to where Ron was going there.
EDIT: Ss Conglom, dood, the cows I eat grew up in a field across the street from where they are processed. I know more about the meat that I eat than you do about the animals you kill.
Ron said:Baggin on hunters is like baggin on the free solo climbers.
Hunting in the ONLY honest meat procurement on this planet. It is the ULTIMATE and honest way actually. Much like the free solo.
Many cant or wont do either of those by choice or by the lack of skills.
To which I replied: Ron, are you really bagging on the farmer down the way that grows my good grassfed beef and buffalo as dishonest?
And on what level is bear-baiting pure?
I think that the comparison with the free solo is tenuous as well. Hands on rock only for progression should equate to hands on flesh/primitive weapon for killing. Do you hunt with an atlatl? Do you hunt with a hand-made blade? Or do you hunt with a chemically propelled metallic slug mined in China?
You are an aid climber calling yourself a soloist.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Brave cowboy- No worries!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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People here are simply expressing their feelings about what TYPE of hunting becomes unacceptable for them. Face it, if you eat meat or wear leather, something died.
How did it die? THAT is what you,re arguing about. WHY did it die. I guess those two questions matter.
If you,re al going to sit around and pretend it,s more admirable to raise a cow for the purpose of slaughter than it is to chase a bear with dogs and then eat it, then you can kiss my ass.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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I think that I can also thank the folks that cut out huge numbers of apex predators for all of those f*#king deer in the road when I drive to Gunnison.
And Ron, I'm not the one claiming a free solo ascent here, I admit that I aid the sh#t out of my meat intake. I'm fine with it. I'm not the faker here.
EDIT: If you folks cleaned up all of the offal and rib meat mess out there then you would not have the 'coyote problem' to such a massive extent as you often perceive it to be.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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oh, and for a nice level playing field i suggest you go strangle your next burger with your bare hands. maybe post up a video here for us, yeah?
lol
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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^aid-hunter^ poseur as soloist.
do it like this guy and then I will agree that you are the purist you present yourself to be, Ron.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1023312/posts
^couldn't find that story out of the hunting mag from years ago about the 65 year old man killing a Kodiak bear with a 3 1/2 inch blade hand to hand. the clincher was that he knew (guessed?) that most bears are right-side dominant in the tooth-and-nail fight.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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im going climbing too, then having elk for dinner.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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I am having deer and a few doves for dinner. Anyone have favorite recipes?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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hawhawhaw, when your piece outweighs your prey, you know that you are a man.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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butterfly a deer tenderloin and fry in butter until lightly browned. You'll never want to eat venison any other way after that. Cream of mushroom soup over steaks then put in a crockpot on low is also the way to go. I butcher my own, so i can cut them up anyway i choose.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Enjoy your low calorie elk burgers! I know you didn't shoot your elk out of a tree.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Like I said earlier, I don't consider treeing an animal hunting, because the dog is doing the hunting. It is legal in many states and there's nothing wrong with following hunting regs. Just not the way I would do it.
I always love the use a knife statement, how is fighting a bear with a knife a fair fight? Also, guns are almost always viewed as cheating by anti-hunters. Well this last spring I shot a turkey with an arrow, was on a hill and it flew off down the hill and proceeded to die slowly. It took us about 40 minutes to find it and end it's misery. My brother used a shotgun and killed his instantly. Sure his was a lot easier, but which was more humane?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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this just in: the disconnect between those that hunt and those that don't is a vast gulf, hence fighting a bear with a knife, or the humaneness of a well placed bullet vs. a poorly placed arrow.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Didn't read the whole thread, but I just want to share my opinion. As a quick note, I don't care about the using dogs issues. I honestly don't think it has really made much difference in the numbers of bears harvested.
Hunting and Fishing are both in severe decline. There are a number of reasons for this:
 Cost My 2014 fishing license plus stamps/cards for fisheries I will use was nearly $100. My 2013 hunting license plus stamps/cards/tags was over $100. This is on top of the ~$100 I paid to get recertified since they wouldn't accept my Washington License that I got in the 80's. This isn't much for me, but it is for a lot of the people who hunt for a primary source of food for their families. My guess is a rising number of poachers and under reporting true harvest #s due to cost.
Public Land Hunting Sucks! You would not believe how little public hunting is available. It is often unclear where it is, what the special regulations for that area are etc.. It is not impossible to find good public hunting area, but it usually takes a 3-4 hour drive with another 2-3 hour hike to clear the beaten down areas. Too boot, you have to leave your car / truck vulnerable to tweakers who will break your window to see if you have quarters in your center console. I have had my truck broke into probably 10 times over the last 20 years between fishing, hunting, and climbing. It gets old :(
No Baiting in CA Think of this not from an ethical issue but a competition issue. Hunter in middle of nowhere = no bait. House ='s all the bait the bear wants. Our bears are trained to co-habitat with people for the free food. I truly believe there are less and less "wild bears" every year. This is backed up anecdotally by the higher number of bears killed by DFG as nuisances. If a bear is near a house, it is almost assured to be a hunting restricted area.
Meat Fewer people see bears as "food". I have eaten bear all my life coming from eastern Washington. My wife and kids wouldn't touch bear if I covered it Prime Rib.
I don't think a decline in hunting and fishing is a good thing to be honest. It is one more step to the complete dependency of the general population on an unsustainable consumerism model.
I grew up fishing and hunting in and out of season because literally that's how poor my family was. If we didn't get a deer or other harvested animal, it meant the family went without meat until we did. The majority of people making decision and posting on internet forums are so disconnected from the realities of people who don't live in an urban area. It is rather frightening to be honest. Urban California is not reality, it is a consumerism at its finest and it is slowly sucking the soul out of us as a people.
You don't have to be a redneck to hunt and fish. You don't have to be unethical or "mean" to harvest an animal. It certainly doesn't make you any less compassionate because you hunt. What hunting does teach you is a very upfront and personal lesson in the emotional and physical cost of a taking a life and justifying it against your need. In today's day and age we need to encourage activities that get the general population, particularly kids, out of their cities and into the wilderness. The less people who identify with activities in the outdoors, the more we are at risk of losing those places entirely.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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So much ignorance on both ends of this subject.
Running dogs in Cali is mostly done by guide services. It increases the success rate for those who don't have time or ability to hunt bear themselves. However, it's almost astronomically expensive and you will pay for your convenience, which ironically like it or not pumps tens of millions of dollars into the economy annually.
Now reguardless of my opinion on hunting with dogs, if you think that it's an easy affair, like shooting monkeys in a cage, you're obviously ignorant of the whole thing and just talking out your ass. But if you think the dramatically decreased numbers of bears taken annually as a result is a good thing, you're just blissfully ignorant, which is no surprise coming from the typical California populous.
It shows you know nothing of wildlife management and the absolute nightmare environmental impacts that it will have on the bear population in Cali. And you think shooting them in a tree is cruel? Not to mention taking away a big chunk of the revenue currently used to fund conservation and wildlife management and replacing it (yet again) with the almighty fleeting taxpayer dollar. Typical dumbass Californians, feelings before common sense and judgment before information.
And if you must know, I think running dogs on bears is a retarded game reserved for the rich and those with way too much time on their hands.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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It ain't free solo hunting if you don't use only a knife Salamanizer, Ss Conglomerate. You folks missed the nature of the mano a mano discussion. It's aid.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If people hunt for bear they should eat the whole animal and use the pelt.
I have no interest in bear meat, but if people hunt legally with dogs then I don't object, although I don't consider it good style.
The way I see it, with hunters contributing more $ towards conservation than all the left wing bleeding hearts, I'll overlook poor style. Hunting regs overall have been a success story. In many cases endangered species have made comebacks as a result.
I will however agree with donini that redneck season might be fun. Sure wish we also had "tourist season" in the spring so we could thin the herd before they overgraze.
I can't believe that Dingus is so out of touch as to believe feral hogs aren't a problem. THEY ARE A HUGE PROBLEM!
Hunting them on the ground solo is SCARY sporty even with a powerful weapon. You don't get much time before you become the prey.
I've considered going to Texas and hunting them with a Rock River from a helicopter. Looks like great fun (and they have ground crews that finish off wounded animals so it is relatively humane).
This is a case of doing great benefit to the public.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Actually, hunting pigs with a knife is specifically illegal in Cali. Sorry TBC.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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A lot more Californians hunt than you may think.
Shoot-Shovel-&-Shut-Up is practiced around here, with no limits and no tags to fill.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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DMT probably knows they are a problem, but when compared to humans they don't tear up anything which was his point. Pig hunting is my favorite and you definitely are vulnerable on the ground. I'm eating pig burger tonight.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Jonnyrig, I know, it is such a bummer that more states do not permit trad-hunting. I mean, I think that an atlatl or other primitive weapon would be way cooler. For some reason though (humane kills, easyness) it is not in style or legal. And, for the record, I think machine guns aginst hogs is actually fairly legit. I think the primitive weapons are more suitable for native prey.
I might just have to go out and poach me some little critters to get on level ground with you folks, huh?
This dude loves hunting hogs with the full auto. You guys could go together, TV.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well that guy has a good reason for full auto. How are you going to run away with your pants around your thighs?
Dingus, you come hunt the "little piggies" in the thick tamarisk forests along the Virgin by Bunkerville, and then tell me how there is no danger.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Yeah. Thats it. Go for the sarcasm.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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you don't wear your pants like that when you go shooting TV?
It is very interesting DMT that for all the pig-shooting bloodthirsty culture I hear about in this country, I have yet to encounter a man-mauled by pig story.
Awright, enough of this yargle-bargle. It is sunny. Let's go climbing.
EDIT: Ron A, deep down, you would dig it if I were into the c*#k, you know it. I think I might just have to buy you a Pink Pistols membership, so you can embrace the gun-loving big bear that you have locked up inside.
The proof is in the pudding, Ron A: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8772014 Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angry-straight-male
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Have either of you ever been pig hunting?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Yo, N. Fk, I spoke to this a bit above:
I might just have to go out and poach me some little critters to get on level ground with you folks, huh?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Whadda herd of pigs in the woods, including the Pig of the Woods, diggin' up last year's crop of mouldy acorns.
Buncha pork-eaters.
Hey, I'm smiling. I got me some popcorn. :0)
And Wayne called. He's bringin' donuts.[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.whiteoak.org/historical-library/fur-trade/voyageurs/
Headin' oujt for brunch first. And some serious football.
In the Trophy Room!
Which is Dingus, which is Ron, and who et Al?Yeehaw and I'm off to the rodeo!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Some Californian's can hunt....Nancy Pelosi, allegedly, bags her limit every time she goes quail hunting.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Then we DO agree as I said they were retards.
On many things... of course we do!
But no offence, listening to you talk about hunting is like listening to a tourist tell you all about those climbers up there while sitting at El Cap bridge. To those with the same knowledge base I'm sure it sounds interesting, but to those in the know, it's almost embarrassing.
I'm with Toker on this one as usual. It's unsporting, but the alternatives are worse than looking the other way.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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DMT, that makes me respect your view more, even though I disagree. I have two friends who have had to jump outta the way of a charging boar. They are tough, crazy, and unpredictable.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Please, look both ways at deer crossings, Sara Palin may be laying in abush.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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That's absolutely true Ron.
I'm a NEWB myself. I'm running like 0-15 or something like that on deer. But I made my own bow, I make my own arrows, string, mocs and it takes me like 15 hours to get close enough to make a shot.
Edited to add: F-this, you BEWBS argue amongst yourselves... I'm going climbing!
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this just in
climber
north fork
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In the scenario you describe they're scared to death, cornered and fighting for their lives. Blaming the pigs for being hunted or thinking they are crazy for defending themselves is a sad misconception.
I agree. I hunt them for the meat and wouldn't hold it against the animal for that reaction.
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John M
climber
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there are some good posts on this thread. I have enjoyed hearing the hunters prospective since I don't hunt. I like the comparison of aid hunting to trad hunting to sport hunting. Its about style, but in the end, something dies. I eat meat, so I don't have a problem with hunters. I do tend to dislike as#@&%es with guns though, but then I dislike as#@&%es period, guns or not. I understand the reasoning of taking a mature animal, rather then a youngster. And I understand that most hunters feel this way, or at least appear to. Like anything done in this life, there are dickwads and then there the real folks. I appreciate this conversation because of the real folks who have shown up.
You had every right not to be near the pig. Don't blame the pig for you getting in its business. You got scared and killed it. I bet the owner of the pig was pissed!
Though maybe Dingus could ease up on the trolling.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Hunting birds with dogs is different. Either you are using them for fetching, or you are using them to flush. Still got to hit a flying bird, still got to know how to get to where the birds will be.
That's hunting.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Wild boars are not native and along with other non- native species like wild horses and burros are very destructive to the environment......fire away. That goes for horses and burros too.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Jan 5, 2014 - 08:03am PT
Using dogs isn't hunting....who can't shoot a treed bear?
Using dogs to tree bears and mountain lions so that there owners can casually shoot them from close range is the moral equivalent of using chemical weapons on civilian populations.
Jim, I totally agree.
A few years ago, this guy wanted to hunt bear on my timber lot with his dogs,
and the radio receivers dangling around their necks.
He was quite persistent but I always said NO.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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So here is the Leopard:
It is listed as Near Threatened on the IUCN Red List because it is declining in large parts of its range due to habitat loss and fragmentation, and hunting for trade and pest control.
I think there is a very reasonable case for the hunting of abundant species, and for pest control (pigs), and non-native species eradication.
But species that are in trouble????
I note that the killing of a leopard was by one of Rong's heroes.
Hmmm.
This is the killer mentality, which is only satisfied by killing something.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If I could bring home 100# of porterhouse and rib eye, I'd kill as many of these the law allows.
I'd look for one with horns, because it'd be easier to drag back to the truck.
But I just don't like deer meat. If I wanted something tough and lean that needs a lot of working with to make edible, I'd pick up some cheap carne asada at the carniceria down the street.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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and I'll bet he killed it on public land. You know, the place where the animal is no longer found.....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Every year, an unlimited amount of lion tags are issued. less than 2% get filled.
Gosh, Rong, how many exactly is 2% of unlimited??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I could see hunting and eating wild horses. The french have some good recipes.
But,.. sorry, I got a rule against eating ass.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I've seen cattle walking around loose on the slopes north of Holcombe Valley.
I imagine they belong to somebody, but I can see shooting one and packing it out in quarters. Non-native animal on public land.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Is that how it's done? Shoot it on first sight, and pack it out?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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A couple of years ago I walked into a certain lodge up in the southern Sierra during bear season expecting to sit down at the bar and enjoy a cold one. The bar was crowded with guys in camo, and they has some sort of small electronic devices. Greetings and a short conversation informed me that these guys were in the act of bear hunting, from the bar. They had GPS on their dogs, and some way of being able to tell when the dogs had a bear treed. In this event they would exit the bar and go get their bear, assuming it wasn’t too far from the road.
I was completely flabbergasted, and it pleases me greatly that this sort of thing is no longer going on.
I also hope the bear population remains stable, a rapid increase could lead to more unsatisfactory interactions between bears and people. As it is today in areas like the Sequoia National Forest and Domelands the bears have not taken up the practices of their neighbors to the north.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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For the years Charming Dawn and I lived off-grid up past Mammoth Pool we endured 5 seasons of bear hunting by dog pack.
Surprising to us was how many of the hunters were from out of state - mostly being from the South having driven for days with their dog pack crated in the back of a pickup truck. Few of the probably 60 or so hunters we talked with over those years were from California.
I do have one question tho - given that hunting is obviously down and therefore so are the numbers of killed bears - will we be arguing 10 years from now about what to do with the explosion of the bear population?
I can't help but believe that without the culling of the herd that past hunting practices providing that there will naturally follow an uptick in living bears.
Tahoe area homes have been trashed by bears the last 2 or 3 years - will the rest of the mountain communities have a similar problem as more bears survive and search for food?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Every local tribe i know has poached cows.
They must have huge pots to do that!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Tribes aren't the only ethnic groups that poach...ask the Wagners of North Fork how many of their free range cattle they lose to the Fresno Hmong.
Not just cows... I've watched these scumbags net across five or six streams north of Little Chiquito campground and then drive every trout, craw dad, turtle and what have you into the nets.
Three years ago they were so bad a couple of PTSD ex-mil locals lit up the a-holes one night. No fatalities by design and aim...but we got their f*#kin attention.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Cool story Ron - that's why the old goobers who taught me to hunt in the Dark Corner of the Southern Appalachian always carried a flask of "Buck Cure"!
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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I used my land as wild life sanctuary from the hunters. The animals, especially the deer, knew it was safe, they learned fast, we always had plenty of different kind of animals there. Pretty cool to walk there.
Unfortunately I took out a wild boar with my car once. They're HUGE. And heavy solid. I've also walked among boars by mistake once, and they leave you alone, as long as you don't get in between the piglets and their moms, nor make any rash movements. Honestly, I was scared as hell, but one must keep that under control, because they smell fear. Like any wild animal.
Nowadays I don't walk into cornfields, boars likes to be in them. I have very much respect for them.
I don't mind hunting, I come from a hunting family, but I think it has to be fair. Trophy hunting of endangered species? You've gotta be out of your minds. Hunted meat shall be eaten. Exception sick animals of course, like when the foxes had foxscab. Poor things.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Last year I was visiting friends and family in Wyo. My buddy ran up to me and said "Hey, I just shot a bear off my four wheeler!"
I thought great, why the hell would you do that?
He said "No, I had been out bear hunting and walking back a bear was on my four wheeler!"
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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while y,all were still goin at it...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Every local tribe i know has poached cows.
N.E. AZ term for range cattle Slow Elk
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Nice, JRig!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dogs have been trying to teach their human pack mates how to hunt for tens of thousands of years.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Last year I was visiting friends and family in Wyo. My buddy ran up to me and said "Hey, I just shot a bear off my four wheeler!"
I thought great, why the hell would you do that?
He said "No, I had been out bear hunting and walking back a bear was on my four wheeler!"
Hahaha! Good one, but I've got a story that evens that score.
Friend of mine was out hunting bear with his dad all day. They saw a bunch of signs but alas, no bear. They head back to their Jeep after dusk and while they were gone, a bear had ripped the passenger side door nearly off the hinges, destroyed the interior, ate all their food and left a huge pile of sh#t in the back seat.
Should have stayed closer to the cooler.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Salaman... Awesome story!
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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i like bacon
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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and cheeseburgers bump...
gall bladders not so much
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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^^^ so do Dogs - but Dingus has an issue with that!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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During WWII dad was a USMC MP assigned to a remote location on the N end of Oahu. They'd do frequent patrols both via jeep and horseback of the back paths and roads looking for infiltrating Japs and anyone else that wasn't supposed to be there.
Now troops in the pacific that did get fresh meat subsisted on a diet heavy with mutton imported from NZ and Australia. not tender lamb, but grizzled old sheep that no longer produced wool.
His unit had a good navy cook, but they were burned out on a diet of mutton and fish, (mostly acquired via hand grenade fishing).
On one patrol they saw the brush moving and got out to investigate the cause. it was a rather large boar. The prospect of fresh pork was too much to pass up.
now dad was armed with a Thomson SMG with a 50 round drum. The pig was at close range so he had it on single shot and put a .45 round right between its eyes. The pig just grunted and started after them. Dad jumped in the back of the jeep and his driver hit the gas with the pig in hot pursuit. Switching to full auto he unloaded the full 50 round drum on the presumptive porcine.
When they butchered him the skull was over an inch thick and the fat provided several inches of body armor. The Between the eyes shot produced a mere flesh wound and most of the rounds tunneled and tumbled thru the fat layers doing no mortal damage.
He beat the pig to death with a Tommy Gun!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Are you OK with using dogs to hunt birds?
Find them and flush them isn't much different from find them and tree them.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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i got a dog from the pound. prolly cost a pretty penny before we found him. they called him bently. square head, beefy haunches, all lab, and LIVES to chase anything that runs or twitches.
its his nature, maybe one day, ill go vegan. him, not so much
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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TGT:
Just wondering, if you call a pig Wilbur, or a Jap, or any other, san, is there a diff?
Surely, times now weren't then.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mr Milktoast writes:
"I don't hunt anymore chaz. Do you?"
I used to hunt rats, using dogs. But the rat problem around here is about licked. I haven't seen one in a couple years. Same with the ground squirrels. They're not a problem anymore, but I probably killed a hundred of them driving them out of here.
I was wondering how you feel about other people using dogs to hunt birds. The times I've seen it done, it looks like an art form.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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cheeseburger bump...
slow elk bump...
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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The vitriol makes one wonder if DMT had hisself a "Deliverance" moment while out hog huntin with some "Uncle".
Cause it shore seems his hole is still got a twitch.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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If it wasn't for the pups, I would have never found these birds!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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No worries Bra - just wondering how the Tennessee got squeezed out of you.
I been in Cali for a few lifetimes myself but still get a South Carolina thrill when the dogs go on the call.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Maybe Tennessee squeezed him out?
Some folks find it hard to believe that some poor folks still live in the mountains and don't rely on the feds. And they are happy and don't ask for anything. (except to lawfully pursue game)
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Those shitstains in Albania and Egypt aren't hunters or falconers. They have no respect for their quarry, no respect for their winged hunting partners, and are the equivalency of trust fund sh#t heads with too much time on their hands.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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The dogs look better than the humans in that picture...
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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found a dog walking down hwy 108, looked like Afghanistan, all bombed up and depleted,
been walkin 3 days with a shock collar on him, got out of range of the transmitter,
made me sick to see a dog treated this way, frickin collar weighed 3 lbs,
you want a bear then find him yourself, jus sayin...wtf, over?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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MH2
climber
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You can't go by appearances.
Typical prey: rolls of toilet paper.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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In my opinion, hunting should be all about need. Do you need to kill a bear to survive? My guess, and yes it's a guess, is that the majority of those who hunt bear, with or without dogs, aren't going to consume the animal. Bear is a tough meat, I've eaten it a few times.
If anyone hunts without consuming their prey, they are selfish humans.
And, if anyone wants to chime in snidely about my vegetarian eating, you're out of line. I'm an omnivore who mostly eats veggies and some meat. Meat from hunters who are my friends, or farms near my house.
I'm also guessing that Ron and others will say that treed bears are eaten by most hunters, but I just flat out don't believe you.
I know hunters, I live in an area where real hunters do so for food, and they don't want the bear tags, because there is better game to spend their time tracking and killing.
If you want to hunt and kill because you like it, just say so, but spare me the childish nonsense of justifying it in disingenuous ways.
Me? I prefer to shoot my guns at inanimate targets and let nature carry on without me interfering.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Hunters killed 1,002 bears in California in 2013, a 48 percent decline from the number killed in 2012, according to the Sacramento Bee
Hunters take 3,000-4,000 bears every season here in our itty bitty state of West Virginia.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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my family hunted. i grew up hunting. our best dogs were blue ticks. always had a coonskin drying on the chicken house.
the only thing worse than having to feed, clean up, and pluck chickens, is doing all that only to have the damn coons break into the hen house and kill all the chickens.
dog craft is not a simple thing. not all dogs can hunt. not all dogs who can hunt, train up well. and a jillion gps collars wouldn't have made it any easier to track and trail in the big muddy flats at midnight.
yes, there's a lot of retards hunting coons. there's a lot of tards on this site. and even more at the crags. but neither has made me lose my basic respect for good dog craft or good rock craft.
i can't offer any knowledgeable comment on the bear hunting deal-- i've never bear hunted, and i'm not up on the literature. i do know that hunting bear with dogs goes back centuries in europe, and that bears (grizzly aside) aren't on the endangered list here in cali.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Hunting can lead to a lot of the same mental failings as climbing. For example: A Climber really wants to get to the top of a hard route and wishes there was just the tiniest foothold where there isn't one, A Hunter really wants to get his animal and wishes he just had the tiniest clue about where it was.
Obviously this is silly, if there was another foothold it wouldn't be a hard climb, if you know where the animal was you wouldn't be hunting, you'd be a wild deer/bear/whatever rancher.
Climbing fortunately forces people to recognize that hoping for things to be easier is stupid, hunting often embraces that hope and promises ways to make the hunt easier, which people obviously snap up in droves.
Both sports are largely about the sportsman battling with his self-doubt and sticking to his reasonable goal and his well thought out plan even under difficult conditions.
I can tell you that there are thousands of dedicated, challenge-accepting, nature-appreciating hunters in Cali. Of course, there are many more who would prefer to set up bait fields right next to the road.
Anyone who tells you they hunt only for meat is truly missing the point, it'd be like saying you climb to get to summits.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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If you really need the meat for your family i do not give a hoot how you get it. a spot light and .22 is the most economical. hunting to put a head on your wall is pretty fcked up.
+10 for JD
There should be a season to use dogs for hunting rednecks.....accept their too drunk and fat to climb trees
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Id say if you just need meat, buy a cheap shotgun and go coot hunting. limit is 25 a day and they wont even bother to fly until at least 15 are shot.
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dirtbag
climber
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Alright Ron, that is cute!
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dirtbag
climber
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I don't know any bear hunters, but I certainly know that is true for waterfowl hunters.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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DMT, ya got any more of them there pictures?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Tradman for the win!!,
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Cute pic Ron
What a good girl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Agree with you 100% DMT except if someone really needs the food for their family whatever it takes to fill the freezer...
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Quote While i do respect the stalking, one can stalk with a gun as well.
You can also stalk with a camera and knot hurt anything.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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No, how about crawling on your belly for 300 meters to crest a knoll and hit a target that's not alive? Maybe you eat everything you kill Ron, but many don't, and that's wrong.
And culling the herd, flock, or whatever? What happened before humans were armed? Yes, some animals were killed, but they didn't destroy or decimate our ecosystem obviously.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Merely an assumption on my part, as I stated upthread.
This is regarding the killing of bears, as per the OP.
Read what I wrote first please. :)
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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more rear end pics please DMT… :)
scott
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I feel like DMT and I are on the same page here.
Cheers, dude. Hope your back is returning to normal.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Anyone ever do some snipe hunting? Do they use dogs for that?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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My mom was a secretary at Safari Club International. None of us hunt shite, it was just a decent job for her. I used to go to the conventions as a side job sort of thing in college, they are huge expos of everything related to hunting. I helped with the auctions--they would auction like $100,000 shotguns, wildlife art and extravagant safaris. Me and another guy were in charge of organizing the live auctions and getting all the crap to the various venues and then taking it out on stage during the auction. Guns, huge taxidermy pieces, art, etc. I remember cruising around Las Vegas in the back of a U-Haul with a stuffed rhino... Crazy! I saw G. Bush senior speak a couple of times and Stormin' Norman as well, it's a high rolling crowd.
Anyway, at one of the conventions the President of Botswana spoke and said hunting basically saved the animals in his country because it gave what are viewed as dangerous interlopers an economic value they otherwise don't have. Now the guy obviously knew his audience but that's what he said.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Did you read it, Ron? I think that Heather did a good job discussing many of the common talking points that hunters use to justify their "sport."
My guess is that you didn't read it...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I don't see why it matters so much to you Dingus what others are doing. Hunting with dogs or without. Same same so what? Fill out a "my butt is butt hurt" form Dingus and find someone who cares what you think about hunters.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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It's like "kill em all!"
The natives hunted the buffalo for 13,000 yrs and then our relatives came and killed them off for "sport" in short order . I quess that is why they have to have game wardens. Now you can only have a little bit of fun and only kill a few!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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I need 2 forms...One for each cheek...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Ron...that might be because every other Orange countian has relocated to Carson/Minden and all points in between...nice cheeks ding-us...rj
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g-tech
Trad climber
Oakland!
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So many awesome comments! This site really needs a like button...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Ron....Speculating as usual but i'm guessing the local chamber of commerce assert undue influence on law enforecement to take it easy on the tourons and slap their hansy's...
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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fukcing poachers give honest hunters who hunt for food a bad name
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Wild pigs don't 'tear up' anything.
Actually, they do tear stuff up.
About 20 years ago I worked for the National Biological Survey on the slopes of Mauna Kea on the big island of Hawaii. I was a field tech setting up mist nets, catching and releasing birds after tagging them, etc. The whole point was to get some science-based understanding and policy decisions to stop the native birds from going extinct. It turns out the culprit was a combination of things:
1) Non-native birds brought avian malaria. Native birds had almost 100% mortality rate when they catch it
2) Mosquitoes are the transmission vector, but they were not adjusted to the higher altitudes on the island. Every year the mosquito range expanded higher up the mountain into colder regions.
3) Polynesians brought pigs to the islands thousands of years ago. These pigs bred with European boars introduced in the 1800s, and these now wild pigs love to dig up Hapu'u fern trees and leave this cesspool in it's place where mosquitoes love to breed. It enables the mosquitoes to more easily adjust to the higher altitudes because there are few other places where water pools long enough to let the mosquito lifecycle continue.
So now-wild pigs, which exist there only because of human introduction, are a direct part of causing the extinction of native Hawaiin birds. Of course, birds are also affected by introduced predators like rats, mongooses (introduced in an attempt to stop the rats!), feral cats, etc.
The funny thing is the wildlife/conservation folks wanted to kill off the pigs, and the hunters wanted to keep them around for sport! The hunters claimed the ancestral customs and lifestyle as the basis for blocking the removal of pigs. I haven't kept up with it to see how it resolved, but it looks like the restricted access forests where we used to work are now opened up as some sort of park.
Amazing birds in that place:
I'iwi, apapane, akepa, akiapola'au, common amakihi, elepaio, oma'o, 'alala
Just found out the 'alala is now extinct in the wild. There were 7 known in the wild when I worked there. When the polynesians came to the islands, about 50% of the bird species went extinct. They would kill tens of thousands of birds and just pluck the brightest couple of feathers in the chest to use for the bright red or bright yellow cape to adorn the king. Then when europeans came with various introduced animals and diseases, there was another mass extinction... maybe 98% of the bird species?
This was a pretty big digression, but the original point was yes, pigs do tear stuff up. And so do humans.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Quote from previous page:
"The natives hunted the buffalo for 13,000 yrs and then our relatives came and killed them off for "sport" in short order . I quess that is why they have to have game wardens. Now you can only have a little bit of fun and only kill a few!"
In my studies I learned that it was a government program to kill off the buffalo because they knew buffalo were essential to the way of life for the Plains Indians. I believe it was the famous Indian murderer Kit Carson who came up with this idea.
I know there are many anti-gun / anti-hunt fanatics on this forum. Hopefully some of you anti-gun nuts will realize that it is responsible hunters who follow the laws and regulations, who pump hundreds of millions of dollars annually in to the economy, any who pay for a large portion of wildlife conservation.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I spent long days chasing bird calls during that Hawaii job, but the reward for me was a binocular sighting and being able to write down the color of the bands on its legs, or none if there was no band. The time spent chasing it down was very nice, sort of like climbing, to have a goal driving your interaction with nature to give it an extra layer of meaning or purpose (albeit one we invent for ourselves).
Shooting the prey at the end would not be cool just for the sake of completion or any sort of "rush" from killing. But I would definitely go hunting for the sake of getting myself food. I think that process leads to a greater respect for the lost life that is the cost of me enjoying meat.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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NutAgain, great point.
All of my friends who have been lifelong sportsmen (i.e. hunters / fisherman) have tremendous respect for the animals they harvest. And that respect continues to grown and build (for me anyway) each time I open the freezer for an elk steak. It is a wonderful gift we have the opportunity in this great country to manage and harvest wildlife for sustenance. And we have millions of responsible sportsmen to thank for this privilege.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Hope to not sound like Dingbat here, but seriously, why are they called "Sportsmen"? Blasting an unarmed animal...Sportsmen? Sportsmen? The Meh on my Mehmeter is rapidly changing I fear....
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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people obsess over the meat. hunting is about the entire experience from planning to eating. it is hard to understand unless you try it. Trying to sustain yourself by hunting in California would result in starvation unless you poach or eat lots of coots, i guess maybe with the exception of areas with lots of hogs.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Yes, it's all about the experience. A year(s) of planning and dreaming and physically scouting the areas. Learning about the animals, their habits, looking for sign (tracks / rubbings). On the few big game hunts I've been on in NAZ, folks take it fairly seriously. Spend some rounds sighting in your scope, investing in camo clothing, good binocs and all sorts of warm weather gear.
It is sort of like those rock climber folks, who make big dreams of climbing some huge formation or boulder, and plan and train and study before their objective. Achieving the summit is the goal, but the whole process is an important component of the experience. I've known some climbers to fail dozens of times on a single objective only to keep trying and trying.
And then on the hunt you still have to find the critters who aren't exactly dumb. Whatever animal it might be, you are in it's home, walking around, making all sorts of noise and stinky smells and most animals split out the first chance they get. The success rate for most big game hunts in NAZ, where elk are quite prolific, is something like 20-30%. In other words the overwhelming majority of men, women and kids who spent all this time and money and time off work, don't even score an animal. To put it another way, hunting (or fishing) is not as easy as most folks believe as a result many sportsmen come home empty handed.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Maybe that's why it's called "hunting", and not "killing".
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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As for hunting buffalo for 13,000 years, hmmm, .. maybe not so much.
First the indians burned down the great forests to produce the "Great Plains", then the population of buffalo began to climb, eventually to at least 65M, but the only way to kill them was to drive them off cliffs, rare in the Great Plains.
In truth it required the reappearance of the horse (1521), but then it took centuries more before the horse cultures of the Plains developed and acquired the ability to hunt buffalo.
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WBraun
climber
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Californians are very good hunters at the malls .......
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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I've never eaten any hunted game. No need these days although I've always wanted to go give it a shot. Har har. Not sure my spoiled by convenience palate would like it though. Homemade prosciutto and bacon sure sound good though. Cause I love me some bacon. Oink!
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Good one Michelle!
TV, interesting points you brought to the table.
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whitemeat
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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I can hunt pretty good
for gear that is...
found this at the bas of SE face of the captain the other day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Hey that's my stuff.
If you look at it with a high powered electronic scanning microscope you'll see my name somewhere on that sh!t ......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Those two guys on the left look dumber than the hounds.....i'll bet their nightime dress is all white.
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Einstein
climber
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Dingus obviously doesn't have a clue what is going on out in CA so ignore his inflammatory B.S.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Just had some wild pig spaghetti. Delicious and I'm grateful.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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If I remember, the extinction of giant sloths, mammoth, and a couple other varieties of north american mega fauna coincided with the appearance of humans in the hood. Maybe same same in Australia. Just sayin. Now if they had AK's...... "stupid" hungry humans
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dingbat (fill out the butthurt form Dingbat) has me partially sympathetic. "Sportsmen"? What the heck?
Ron said: "Couch, Chukar are hardly un armed. Hearing far better than ours, eyes far better than ours and legs far stronger than ours. Then add wings. They laugh at hunters every day of the season. werd. First chukar hunt is for food and sport, after that REVENGE is the strongest motive. "
I was doing some walkabout in Hawaii, big island, no folks about. I hear a Chukar....WTF? I follow it ducking under brush, walking over pahoyhoy lava rocks..(like the dog said when he wiped with sandpaper: rough). I finally get a sighting and am close enough to blast: Chukar. Real Chukar, a whole flocking flock of the suckers. Same brand as around here Chukar.
WTF?
Turns out that some jackalope had introduced them and they thrived. They get hunted. Cue non-Nutjob rant. Sad to see it occurring. Real real sad.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Killin' sh#t.
What fun.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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GPS collars on dogs is the new preferred technique for hunters. Who needs sport, when you can just let the dog and technology do all of the work. Totally lame on so many levels. . .
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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So... in Tennessee
We were the only place turkeys were still found in the 60's. As for deer, it used to look like a football game rush hour opening morning trying to get to the cumberland mountains (we would allow deer hunting and opened the gates for the season).
We also have participated in the Elk and Black Bear reintroductions to this mountain range.
So what is the argument on modern man decreasing wildlife numbers while following the laws?
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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DMT thread drift post:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Just messin' with you DMT. You're all square in my book. Still, I'd bet 5 dollars, you once sported a mullet or two, and you probably scare your daughters with the pictures. If you post one up here I'll buy you a cheeseburger and a pitcher if you are ever in this neck of the woods.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Maybe I'm trying to be too pragmatic. The point of hunting ultimately seems to be killing things. If using a dog means you get there more efficiently, and more sustainably, more power to you. Still, we've gone from hunting for need, to hunting for sport.
I venture that there is a part of us all that digs the trophy, and chicks (at least at one time, or in some places), dug the manliness of it all too. Glad to hear that you got out of the woods, but I wonder if humans will generally.
It seems like there is a bit of the dog in all of us, but then we can make choices too. Finally, I'd rather see your cousin chasing bears with his dogs through the mountains, than mountains with their tops missing. Hopefully, there are issues on which we all can agree.
edit: sorry for the mullet comment
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Dingus- I usually wear a t-shirt, usually natural/subtle colors. Sometimes it is GO VOLS color
As, Greg Brown once stated, "scientifically clean just like they came out of o'll LL Bean".
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I prefer to hunt bare. With a sharp stick in one hand and a rock in the other.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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And yes, used a 25-35 from 1890 to dispatch most of them. My uncle bought it from an Indian in the early 50's.
I don't use it often because the shells are hard to find!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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We also have a lot of people who really enjoy their meat. They go down to the store and pick it up in neatly wrapped little packages that look nothing like the animal they came from. They take it home and grill it up and think nothing of the fact that it was once a living thing.
How convenient it is not to have to face up to the animal you're eating.
Shoot one, maybe have to finish it because the first shot wasn't perfect. Then gut it. Drag it off the mountain, butcher it. Tell me there wouldn't be more vegetarians.
Old rifle? Check. Grandpa's 30-06, pump action. Neither the best action, nor the most accurate configuration compared to modern arms. 357 single action wheel gun as backup, cause last year the 06 failed to fire twice. Binoculars? Sure. $35 at Big5. Boots? Second-hand from someone they don't fit anymore. Tent? Yeah... tarps and PVC, with a home-welded woodstove cause I couldn't afford to buy one. Camo? Yeah. A 7 year old jacket, and cheap cotton pants from Walmart. In weather that was at least -20, cause it froze the -20 gallon of washer fluid.
Let's see, how else can I meet the ever-increasingly-difficult-to-meet criteria of ethical hunting?
Cow tag, cause I want the meat. No trophy there. Total cost of hunt, including license, tag, gas, food (half of which was given to me because it was about to expire), less than buying half an organic cow.
Two days hunting, spot and stalk within range on top of a ridge two miles from camp, half a mile uphill from the road, then drag the whole damn animal down the mountain half a mile to the road through sage and snow, had to put a camp stove under my engine for half a day and jump it off the 2nd truck to get it started.
But hey, I didn't use a dog. So maybe I earned it, or maybe I'm just a heartless bastard out hunting for sport.
Hell, I don't know why it even bothers me, these threads...
I guess because of the general loathing you guys seem to have for hunters in general. The idea that you think they all fit into the same category. And then you go buy a slab of bacon. Yeah. That's it.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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I have read that some folks are scared of hogs, "that they are dangerous".
I have been treed once (I was 6 years old) not sure why grown men still consider them a threat?
I just see them as an environmental threat.
Help me wipe them out!
I do make sure I have a tree to climb when I shoot into a herd that is very close!
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jonnyrig- don't take any of this nonsense personal, but keep talking!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Well, hell... the less I say the better probably. Less talking, more climbing.
Why? Because some people would be happy as a clam to outlaw it. After all, we're only doing it for fun, right? Couple hundred pounds of meat in the freezer got nothing to do with it...
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Come on dude... who would care if we were out trapping roaches to coat 'em in chocolate and deep fry 'em with the twinkies?
Nobody.
But, now, take a cute furry mammal... BLAMO! Cruel.
Charismatic megafauna. People get all worked up over 'em.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Sarcasm.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Dingus-
I view it as a sport that i have cherished with my father for 30 years.
We chase dogs around all day, sometimes we get a critter and somedays we don't.
At the end of the day I am sitting with my dad (who is in his 70's) and hearing stories about his passion. Watching his dogs run.
I would not trade any of these times for anything.
Watching the sunset over the Wolf Creek Range, and saying "hell", I think they dropped into Mission Coulee! Here we go again!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Yeah... keep yer mouth shut if ya know what's good for ya. Nice.
I think people would get offended at pictures of dead critters, so, for the most part I don't post them.
Anyway, time for me to sign off. Gotta work in the morning.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Both jonnyrig's and DMT's long posts each had a lot of truth and heart in them. Thanks for those.
Life feeds on life and there has always been a food chain as long as critters have been around. Whatever you choose to eat or however, enjoy the fact that you're eating. Treeing animals is weak in my view, but who the f*#k am I. See y'all in the morning.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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The territory I grew up on chasing dogs and hoping for birds!
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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R wedgee? what?
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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We're going to have another referendum on banning the current practice hunting bears with dogs or over bait here in Maine. The ban failed with a 47-53 vote in 2004. Of course it's portrayed by the baiters as "people from away" trying to "change our way of life". Here in Maine the rednecks really resent people from the southern part of the state and the coast, many of which they denigrate for not being "native". I will admit I occasionally bash the "summer people" that have driven real estate prices up here on the coast for us year-rounder non-trust-fund people (although I try not to complain too much when I can sit at my desk at work and literally see a National Park outside my window; I see the appeal of this place), but I don't really care about bear hunting.
We have a camp in an unpopulated area (10 miles or so from the nearest public road, accessible by a network of private logging roads that crisscross the unorganized territory of Maine), and I know bear hunting is important to the livelihood of a few of the people trying to make it year round near there, but I find baiting distasteful. On the way to camp you drive down a state highway that, for the east coast, is desolate. There is a hunting lodge in the middle of no where that offers guided bear hunts, and during hunting season the driveway is full of vehicles from Massachusetts. For some reason, people think that driving up into the wilderness and being lead to a tree stand that has been baited for weeks by a local guide and shooting a bear looking for another free handout is an adventure. Posing for their hero picture with the dead animal is probably the ultimate goal; what to do with the meat is an afterthought I suppose.
I stumbled upon one of these active bait sites while walking through the woods near camp one day. I rarely see bears when I'm out and about; there is a lot of woods here and they are quite timid. But I did not feel at all comfortable sticking around the bait site for long. The food was gone for the day, but there were lots of signs of a lot of bear activity. The ground was deeply trampled and eroded around the bait bucket, which was chained to a nearby tree.
Some people seem to think that the ban will pass this time. Most of the people I know, many native Mainiacs from the "real Maine", find hunting over bait and trapping distasteful. I think hunting with dogs is slightly more palatable to some people. Although I am not really close to many avid hunters, so I suspect many deer/bird hunters will support their bear hunter kin (who are relatively small portion of the hunting community here).
It will be interesting. Of course the hunters try to scare non-hunters with the claim we will be overrun with bear if the ban is enacted. I've read that the estimated population here has grown from around 23,000 bears to 30,000 over the last 10 years; yet my encounters are no more frequent. Maine has a sophisticated team of wildlife biologists and it is certain that if the ban passes the hunting success rate will plummet, which will basically nullify their current bear management plan. Of course the department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife receives a portion of its funding from the sale of hunting licenses, so I'm sure there is pressure on the biologists to support these hunting practices as part of a management plan.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I'm just not convinced that raising pigs in small pens and killing them in an industrial killing machine is a better thing like Dingbat apparently does.
But I do get my Bacon from the fridge, so I'm not going to go all whack about it on the internet.
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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Dingus, Baxter is a special place. Has some climbing too: http://brianirwinmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Beast-of-the-East.pdf They have really relaxed the winter red tape, but the prohibition on backcountry camping makes developing routes in the remote North Basin difficult.
The coast is like a whole other state. Too bad you didn't experience that too. No doubt in your youth you could have had a more authentic experience with thick downeast accents and real working finishing towns. You still get a taste, but watered down by tourists and wealthy summer people.
And yes, it can be cold. A few weeks ago a town in northern Maine (a good 4 hour drive north from me) had a high of -45 for the day. After weeks of temps that were below zero to the single digits it warmed up to the 20s for a few days and then shot to the 50s for one day yesterday before dropping back into freezing.
RE factory farmed pigs: this is why all of my pork was raised humanely on a small local farm by someone I know. With room to forage and act like a pig. Humanely dispatched by the farmer with a rifle before being trucked down the road to a local butcher. I have no problem with people that hunt deer and moose for food. This includes many of my friends, neighbors, and familly. I do have a problem with baited bear hunts, which are usually conducted for out of state tourists for fun.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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I,ve got an idea.
Those of you who think hunting with dogs is easy, go follow somebody on a couple hunts.
Bet you won,t.
Then come report back about your experience, you know, whether it lived up to your expectations.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Yall get amped about this stuff. I should probably avoid mentioning that I hunt to people, lest I be judged harshly!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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FYI
with those old black powder cartridges the first number is the bore and the second is the powder charge, so a 25-35 is a .25 calibre round propelled by 35 grains of powder.
Willie Dixon made his famous 1538 yard shot at the second Battle of Adobe Walls with a 50-90 in 1874.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Not William James, but thanks for Spoonful, Hoochie Coochie Man, and I Just Wanna Make Love To You.
The Medal Of Honor awardee's great grandnephew, Doug Dixon, lives just up the road a few miles from the Kolob Fingers.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/articles/prey-maimed-for-an-easy-hunt
Wednesday, January 8, 2014
Two men, including a big game outfitter from Mack, organized illegal hunts of mountain lions and bobcats over three years near the Colorado-Utah line and would maim animals to make hunts easier, the U.S. Attorney’s Office said Wednesday.
Christopher Loncarich, 55, of Mack, and Nicholaus Rodgers, 30, of Medford, Ore., were charged Tuesday in a 17-count indictment with conspiracy to violate to the Lacey Act, interstate felony transportation and sale of unlawfully taken wildlife, and felony creation of false records concerning wildlife sold in interstate commerce.
The U.S. Attorney’s Office, which announced the charges in a press release, alleged a scheme between the men between 2007 and 2010 operating in western Colorado on the Utah border.
Loncarich outfits and guides hunts for mountain lions and bobcats in the Bookcliffs range.
Authorities allege Loncarich and his assistants trapped the cats in cages prior to hunts, then released them when their clients were nearby. Loncarich, Rodgers and others would stay in touch via radio to ensure their clients were taken to the location of the release.
Loncarich and others would sometimes shoot cats in the paws or legs, or attach leghold traps, toward making the hunts easier, the U.S. Attorney’s Office said.
Many of the paying hunters did not have proper licenses to hunt the animals, which were brought back to Colorado after kills. Records were allegedly falsified to Colorado wildlife authorities, who approved transporting the cats to the hunters’ home states.
To date, four assistant hunting guides have pleaded guilty in connection with the scheme, federal prosecutors said.
Marvin Ellis, of Grand Junction, was ordered last June by U.S. District Judge Philip Brimmer to serve three years probation and pay a $3,000 fine stemming from his guilty plea to conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act. As a condition of probation, Brimmer prohibited Ellis from any “hunting activities/hunting groups,” while ordering him not to kill any animals while on probation.
The U.S. Attorney’s Office on Wednesday did not release a copy of the grand jury indictment in the investigation. It wasn’t immediately clear if Loncarich or Rodgers were in custody, or free on bond.
Attempts to reach Loncarich at his Mack home were unsuccessful.
Ron Velarde, Northwest Regional Manager for Colorado Parks and Wildlife, said the case was among the worst he’s seen over a four-decade career.
“When people go outside of established laws, they jeopardize wildlife populations but more importantly the public trust in hunting to be part of the responsible management of wildlife,” Velarde said in a release.
The case was investigated by U.S. Fish and Wildlife, Colorado Parks and Wildlife and the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.
http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/articles/hunter-used-poison-for-20-years-shameful-judge-say
One of four South Carolina men who used poison arrows to hunt deer, elk and bears told an investigator he’s been using the illegal equipment in Mesa County for at least 20 years, taking
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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I think that vaginas everywhere are offended by that comparison Stinkeye.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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epithets about vaginas imply that you like dick. jes sayin'.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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^winding up for the whiff?^
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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So here in the Santa Cruz mtns, the Bay Area Puma Project hunts Felis Concolor with dogs. When they've got him/her treed they move the dogs back and shoot it with a tranquilizer dart. Poor ole Felis falls out of the tree, gets a radio collar, has his teeth checked, gets measured, has to give up some blood and a hair sample.
Then everyone moves WAAY back with the dogs. As the lion awakes he snarls and bares his teeth at the dogs and then totters away the other direction into the forest.
At least that's how it has played out so far.
http://www.bapp.org/field-activities
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Without question, hunting season is my favorite time of the year. There's no shortage of "hunters" out shooting one another, themselves, and pretty much anything else that either moves or doesn't.
My all time favorite was the big brave hunter in some form of tree stand so he could kill Bambi. He didn't set it up properly and it collapsed on him and fell to the ground and broke his leg. Since he was alone, nobody came to help immediately. Meanwhile he's lying there and a bear came along and tore the sh#t out of him! He survived, but it wasn't pretty.
Go nature!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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What part of "the prey walks away" don't you understand?
BAPP don't use any traps or snares. They did at first and then figured out the dogs were much more humane because the lion can easily run up a tree and isn't injured.
That's my point exactly. Dogs have a limited place in the humane treatment of wild animals.
I've got no quarrel with shooting game for food as long as it's consumed.
But using dogs to hunt is wrong in my mind.
As for needing dogs to hunt the fearsome nuisance boar. We had a wild boar infestation a few years ago. Damned Cal F&G wouldn't let us hunt 'em! Meddlesome bureaucrats.
So we hired a licensed trapper, built a dozen iron traps and placed them in strategic locations. Over a course of about 8 years, nearly all the boars were trapped, killed and the meat went to charity. The boars are now so scarce they're not a problem. I suspect Felis Concolor, coyotes and bobcats keep them in check. I'll bet piglets are mighty tasty.
Hunters with dogs wouldn't have been nearly as thorough chasing the boar all over the wilderness.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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How does one hunt birds without a dog, High Traverse?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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bipedal locomotion is pretty effective
speaking of Otis Rush and bloodlust
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ron, remember this sh#t, you are Willy F*#king Wonka out there. You make the chocolate and it is your factory. Will you be Otis or will you be Jesus? Remember the maimed animals, the poisoned wild things, and remember that the same choice is theirs as well. Think about that next time you are out there, the eyes upon your back. Poison begets poison.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Chaz
By waiting. With bird calls. With patience. And then with walking. Yeah, Tom takes a dog when he's hunting water fowl. To retrieve the dead birds. He doesn't take a dog to flush land birds. He walks and he's in his late 70s. His dad used dogs to flush game and to tree bears. Tom used to. Hasn't in years and yes, his last bear he got without a dog.
Have you ever hunted turkey? With a dog?
Tell us about it.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I was trying to think of a bird that can be hunted without a dog, and turkey was all I could think of, too. I doubt you would even see a turkey if your dog was around.
Everything else requires a dog to find it or retrieve it, or both.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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I do appreciate the fulfillment that the dog gets from the teamwork and service. I do.
Still though, I guess to me it sounds like you are lazy when you say that no birds besides turkeys can be hunted without dogs.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Ron
you exaggerate
NV populations would be such that there wouldnt be a game animal or livestock left I see the deer population wax and wane up here on my mountain. When Felis Concolor is around, there are few deer. Most move away, a very few are killed.
It's the natural ebb and flow of wild populations. When there's less prey, predators have smaller litters or fewer of the newborn survive. Then the rabbits or deer repopulate.
I figure you know this.
The deer and ground animal population has plummeted here because of one poor followed by two really bad rain years. There are VERY few coyotes around this year. They've been replaced by a couple of foxes. Which, judging by their scat, are currently climbing fruit trees to get food.
There are more mt lion sightings in the area. I expect because they too have to range further to get enough to eat.
The usual great horned owls are gone. I had one or two every night for years. Often 4 or 5 at night down the canyon. Haven't seen one in 6 months. Haven't heard one since about Thanksgiving. I doubt lions get them. Even the quail are scarce, not likely lion prey.
I walk my dog early every morning, a couple of times in daylight and late every night. I see the animals' scats (which is how I know the foxes are eating mainly fruit). Plenty of lion scat around. I have a pretty good idea of the local animal census as do many of my neighbors.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Everything else requires a dog to find it or retrieve it, or both. Not for Tom to find or chase down. Nor for a couple of other avid hunters I know. Sure, to retrieve, especially from water.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Somewhere, there's a guy who doesn't use a gun.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Funny Ron, with all the missing pets around here, you would think that no one goes out into the desert with their varmint guns and camo and little boy machismo to blow away 'yotes. Or traps and maims and then 'hunts' the feline predators. But they do. And still the pets go missing.
Seems to me that someone so fixated on killing sh#t might just keep loosing rounds whether it is a house cat or a wildcat. Seems to me that perhaps the predators that are the sickest and most threatening are not the native 'yotes and big cats. Seems to me.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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What if they just said "OK, go ahead and use the dogs, but instead of shooting a bear in a tree, you have to shoot yourself in the foot".
The hunter can then go on home and tell how he kicked some bear's ass and got the sore foot to prove it.
I met Wille Dixon and I can assure you he never hunted a bear in his life.
Willie Dixon on safari wiht Hooker and King, note no gunzz.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Seems to me some of you just have an anti-hunting bug up your a*#.
Whatever. I'm out. I don't give a sh#t what you think any more.
Thanks for convincing me not to give a f*#k.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Jan 10, 2014 - 01:05am PT
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some can, some can,t. but if ya can,t argue about it, then it,s just not entertaining. no more argument outa me. fame em or flame em, it,s just not worth it anymore.
kisses? nah... already had a chick with stubble. yuck.
just keep cookin, it,ll all be fine.
try strawberries sauteed in syrup and add a bit of instant coffee crystals to it for yer next batch o french toast. and it,s meat free.
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Harvey Manfrenjensen
Big Wall climber
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:34am PT
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Stop projecting Dingus
It's not subtle
Just embrace your inner redneck
You know it to be true
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:24am PT
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Well Sonny wasn't treed with dogs.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jan 10, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
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WTF
could've been worse...think nettles!
And now back to your usual programming.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jan 10, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
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People hunt with "good" dogs, because it works. Dogs hunt with people because they get fed, and we've been able to exploit some of their behaviors. (Dogs can pretty good at manipulating us too).
It seems like we've always exploited available technology. The technology just keeps getting "better".
[Click to View YouTube Video]
My uncle said that my grandfather and his friends used to hunt wild pigs on Hawaii with knives. He said my grandpa was usually the first to jump in.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Killing things is inherently violent. Also, bacon and cheeseburgers taste good. I just heard about a new study that shows removing top predators from a community has dramatic effects on other organisms, and even the landscape. Perhaps another question is, what kind of world do we want to live in (leave for our kids? That is my final answer/question/post.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
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they keep pulling me back in.....
maybe there is lots of prey because there are fewer predators. please see post above
just saying'
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
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Who else but the Eagles (and other raptors), Coyotes and Foxes would clean up the mess?
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
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Ron--
The singular form of "species" is "species."
One species, two species, several species.
Specie refers to coinage, not life forms.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
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Ron,
I'm not picking on you. It is species, singular or plural. Also, some hunters are conservationists. Ducks Unlimited has done a lot to increase waterfowl habitat. Rangeland grashopper not so much. Still, unfortunately, until something has an economic value, people often don't give a rat's ass about it.
We believe what we believe.
From some rag called Science :
http://www.registerguard.com/rg/news/local/30976823-75/carnivores-populations-ripple-science-ecological.html.csp
Also, google keystone predation, otters, starfish, for some classic, elegant research.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
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Californians suck so bad at hunting that deer have to commit suicide. From Mammoth Pools DMT.
The lake was partly frozen over and this buck and another attempted to cross, but failed. My buddy found their fresh corpses a week and a half earlier. We spooked a Golden Eagle feeding on what little remained.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
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Maybe Californians can't hunt because they're all out at sea, where the real hunt is.
Kirk Douglas certainly was. Suckit!
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jan 14, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
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Saw some fresh tracks Saturday at 8000'. It was dropping to lower elevation and I was thinking it's a bad year when the bears aren't hibernating. We need winter. The bears here aren't acclimated to humans.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 14, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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I doubt the bears here in SoCal ever hibernate.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 14, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
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In the process of filling out my cow elk tag for the Fall lottery hunt and came across this in the Arizona Game and Fish online application. I think it helps explain how honest sporstmen (and women and children) provide so much support for wildlife conservation in this country.
"Thank You hunters and recreational shooters
Arizona’s rich outdoor heritage is enjoyed by all — thanks to hunters like you, whose purchase
of hunting and recreational shooting equipment supports wildlife management
and habitat enhancement in the Grand Canyon State.
When you purchase a rifle, ammunition, archery equipment, and other sporting gear,
you pay a federal excise tax and import duties.
Since 1937, this money has been collected by the federal government and
redistributed to the states using a formula based on hunting license sales and
the state’s land area. In 2013, that meant more than $13.2 million for game management in Arizona. This money paid for game surveys, hunter education classes, wildlife water catchment construction, wildlife research and shooting range development and operations, among other projects.
Hunters like you are part of the largest and most successful wildlife conservation programs in the world...thank you."
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Jan 14, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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I don't get the Kirk Douglas reference.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jan 14, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
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There's elf in the Rockies?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jan 14, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
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Haha, nice edit.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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Down here in LaLaLand when the going gets tough the tough go hot-tubbing.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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I know plenty of visla, gsp, and pointer owners that have picked buckshot out of their dogs hunting in Imperial Valley. I'll never go there; my shorthair is part of the family. Most the people I know do trips out of state, including the former #1 field GSP in CA. I've had more success lately taking my gsp to AZ to visit my dad. Too bad the Quail #'s seem to be down over there last two years.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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I just ran some Duck hunters off my place yesterday.
I loved their excuse , "I didn't think anyone owned this"
They were nice folks though.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
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"I didn't think anyone owned this"
They must have been members of Ducks Uninhibited By Thought.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
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I know this forum is filled with hate against gun owners and hunters. Here is some curious information lifted from the Arizona Game and Fish website. My hopes in introducing these statistics is that some of the anti-sportsmen might open their eyes to the value of responsible resource management. Surely sportsmen spend far more on conservation then climbers.
The Economic Importance of Hunting and Fishing
Fishing and hunting recreation generates spending that has a powerful effect on Arizona’s economy. More than 255,000 anglers spend an estimated $831.5 million on equipment and trip-related expenditures annually. Hunters, more than 135,000 of them, account for an additional $126.5 million in retail sales. This combined $958 million in spending creates an economic impact of $1.34 billion to the state of Arizona. Furthermore, this spending supports more than 17,000 jobs, provides residents with $314 million in salary and wages and generates more than $58 million in state tax revenue.
*note this does not seem to mention all the licenses and tags we have to purchase
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:32pm PT
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No problem, Ron.
It is almost crazy how rabid some climbers get about the concept of hunting.
In my opinion some climbers do far more damage to natural areas than most hunters - building trails, trundling boulders, "gardening", grid bolting, etc. It is a sport in which people proudly proclaim themselves to be "dirtbags" (camping illegally in parks, dumpster diving, climbing on private property, illegal trail construction, etc). I know lots of climbers who will do anything to save a dollar. In contrast, all the hunters I know go to work (i.e. have jobs) and have no problem paying all the fees necessary to get the privilege to hunt / fish.
I know there are rotten apples in every bunch and the last statement was a sweeping generalization, just want to point out some differences in the two pursuits.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
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That was my point. I don't think very many members of Ducks Unlimited would
use that lame of an excuse. I know quite a few of those folks and they
are all very considerate.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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I'm on a roll, but will stop after posting a little more data about hunting:
Hunting Quick Facts
Americans spent more than 282 million days hunting in 2011.
Sportsmen contribute nearly $8 million a day that goes to support wildlife agencies and conservation.
As of 2012, hunters and target shooters have paid more than $7.2 billion in excise taxes through the Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act since its passage in 1937.
Hunting supports more than 680,000 jobs each year in the United States.
Hunters spent a total of $38.3 billion last year that had a total economic multiplier effect of $86.9 billion across the U.S. economy.
Hunting overall brought in more revenue ($38.3 billion) than Google ($37.9 billion) or Goldman Sachs Group ($36.8 billion).
If hunting were a company, the amount spent by sportsmen to support their hunting activities would place it number 73 on the Fortune 500 list.
Educate yourself here:
http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/HuntingInAmerica_EconomicForceForConservation.pdf
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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It doesn't matter if you have 1 acre or 100,000 acres, people will try to do what they shouldn't on it.
Just a personel reflection on patrolling landholdings.
The few bad guys get gates shut for the rest of us.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 14, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
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Excellent point Q-Ball: "The few bad guys get gates shut for the rest of us." There are some serious losers in the climbing community, just as their are in the hunting community.
Some random musings between the two pursuits, minutes ago while splitting firewood:
If I came on this forum and said, "Hey I am looking for information on how to pull off climbing the Totem Pole" (a tall, slender spire which is technically off-limits to climbing as it lies on the Navajo Nation). On this forum you would likely get dozens of replies, filled with tips, photos, trip reports and all sorts of beta to successfully nab this beauty of a spire.
On the other hand, if I went to a hunting forum and said, "Hey, there is this beautiful bull elk I saw over in Unit 7W, and I'm wondering if anyone has tips on how I can pull him out of there tomorrow without being caught." You would probably be banned from the forum and in all likelihood (hopefully anyway), you would have a law enforcement officer at your door the next day asking you a few questions.
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