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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 14, 2013 - 02:07am PT
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Mystery Nut - Colorado Nut/Clogwyn/Gendarme
This is the nut I am trying to identify.
John Markwell made a hex similar to this in 1965, called a Markwell Hex. Sometime later (years?) the hex was called a Gendarme Hex.
Gendarme Nuts -1971/1972 - Steve Richards, John Markwell, John Livingston.
I have yet to find proof that a Gendarme Hex was mass produced and sold previous than 1969. John Markwell opened a climbing shop and started manufacturing Gendarme Nuts in 1971/1972, which were sold to the public. This Gendarme Hex was supposedly available, being sold to the public predating Dolt Saddlechocks in 1967. If true then John Markwell is credited for being the first to manufacture nuts (Gendarme Hex) in the USA.
 Below is the 1969 Holubar Catalog.
This 1969 catalog shows that the mystery nut is a Colorado Nut. The Colorado Nuts listed are numbered in inches, which is exactly what is stamped on Colorado Nuts. The hex shown in the catalog photo is 1 1/2 in size which is the same size as the 1 1/2 Colorado Nut. Colorado Nuts were first manufactured in 1968 in the full range up to the 1 1/2 size. But the 1 1/2 Colorado nut looks different than the catalog photo. So if Holubar was ordering hexes from the Colorado Nut company, and its obvious that nuts look different, where did this nut photo come from and why is it in the catalog?
Below is the 1970 Holubar Catalog.
This 1970 catalog shows that the mystery nut is now a Clogwyn Nut, with a listing as Hexagons. The Hexagon listing is in numbers not in inches, so Colorado Nuts I guess are completely removed. There does however exist a photo of a Colorado Nut with a #5 stamp. Hence another mystery. So now Holubar is selling Clogwyn Hexagons up to size #7. Size 7 is 1 1/2, same as the mystery nut. But Clogwyn Hexagons look different than the Hex in the catalog photo, but yet again the photo of the mystery nut is still there, rather large picture, rather obvious, but Holubar does not sell this nut…..?)
--Below is the 1971 Holubar Catalog.
This 1971 catalog shows that the mystery nut is a Clogwyn Hexagon. But now the listing for Hexagons does not include the #7 size. The listing stops at 1 1/4, but the mystery nut in the photo is still the possible Gendarme Hex, which is 1 1/2. Why did Holubar stop selling the Hexagon #7 anyways? So my question is, is this mystery nut a Gendarme Hex? Why would Holubar not identify it as a Gendarme Hex since it would have been an obvious different hex, with similar size, to the sets they were selling. These days many catalogs sell many of same item stuff (ex: sets of cams to choose from), but back in the late 1960s, it was one of each item stuff.
Always an Adventure! Happy Holidays! -------Marty
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 04:15am PT
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The main difference between your mystery hex and the others
is the diameter of the long hole - it is small and not countersunk.
Most of the nuts in your color photos have larger diameter holes,
or the hole is countersunk.
The Holubar catalog uses the same photo in different years to
sell different brands, so it is not very definitive.
Better would be to have an ad made by the company who made the nut.
[Edit:] based on the posts and photos below, it seems clear now that it's a prototype Colorado Nut.
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 14, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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It could be a Colorado Nut. Early on, in particular, we experimented with a lot of variations in hole size, location, countersink configurations and depth, etc.
From the photo, it doesn't look like there are band saw marks on the cut ends, which many of our early prototypes had before we started cutting the hex stock with a carbide toothed cutoff saw. Later production models were sanded on the ends, the sling holes countersunk with a radius countersink, then tumbled to a bright finish. The holes in the sides were replaced by a larger hole drilled in the end.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Dec 14, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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Did you stamp “Colorado Nut” on your early prototypes, or did this logo come later?
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 14, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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It's been over 40 years, so my memory is a bit foggy, but this is what I remember.
We started making nuts in the basement of a house in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Denver in 1967 or 68. We moved the shop to Eldorado in 1970, then out to Marshall in 71 or 72. Most of the production runs were done in Eldorado.
We made a series of prototypes without numbers or inch designations. We basically drilled holes in anything that would fit into a crack.
We used number stamps until we had the inch stamps made.
We did not have the equipment to drill the large hole in the ends of the 1 1/2 hexes, so we had that work done at Triton Tool in Boulder.
At one point, we had a dozen or so dealers selling our gear. We decided to suspend operations for several reasons.
We weren't sure what our liability was if something broke.
We were getting enough orders that we needed to spend 8 hours a day on the drill press or cutoff saw, and we weren't sure if that was what we wanted to do for a living. We weren't making all that much money, anyway.
It became clear that evolving designs were superior to our hexes and I-beams and it would require a considerable investment in tooling and custom extrusions to keep up with the rest of the industry, which was quickly becoming saturated with new designs.
When we informed our dealers that we were suspending operations, basically because we were too successful and it was too much work, they were a little taken aback, but quickly got over it and were well supplied by other companies that came along.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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Thanks for the details, Billy!
I posted a shot of a Gendarme Hex without the lightening holes here.The edge finishing details match the Gendarme wedges to my satisfaction based on the source. I got it along with another Gendarme nut in an auction lot.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1397992&msg=1878381#msg1878381
In the absence of a stamp makes it a matter of matching the finish details, taper and dimensions against known entities. The points on a Gendarme Hex aren't ground away like the Colorado and Clog versions.
Check your nut against a Clog wedge the same approximate size. By the center hole size and length I think that is likely a Clog hex (as shown in the catalog shot) but it all has to match to your liking.
The Colorado Nuts are fabricated to overlap by increments of 1/8" one to the next and the lengths usually are set to fill in the sizes between the standard hexagonal stock dimensions. I don't know if Clog tried to keep to this scheme.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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With their wide flare Gendarme wedges work really well in Eldo.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
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Markwell used the taper from the classic MOAC nut and simply reduced the height to produce the classic Gendarme wedge shape.
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pimp daddy wayne
Gym climber
Manchester, VT
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Dec 14, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
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This is awesome
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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Those Seneca Rocks Museum shots are pretty fish-eyed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Billy- How much did you guys vary the taper on the end cuts for the hexes during early production?
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 15, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
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I don't recall the angle, but we settled on something that seemed to work well in cracks around Boulder, the Platte, and in the Park. Strictly trial and error.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
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The reason that I ask is to help Marty nail this down by matching the end taper on his mystery nut if you guys were reasonably consistent on that detail during production which seems likely to me. Two Colorado hexes with the same end taper should yield a straight run when opposed and in line.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Dec 15, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
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Markwell's stoppers were really good!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Dec 16, 2013 - 03:30am PT
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great story fort mental
love that scrap heap pic up a few posts.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:43am PT
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What this country needed Back Then was a nut that you could auto-click to enlarge or smallen.
Who and when whill whee see a camming device museum?
Whoo-hoo, start collecting, boys, girls, and mystery nuts!
I hope there's lots of Good Stuff in all your stockings, too, lads & ladies:
Nuts, orange webbing, and cams, lots of cams, eh? Maybe even new shoes in the stocking?
Ed Hartouni & Peter Haan, especially, have a Wide Christmas!
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Dec 16, 2013 - 09:04am PT
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I love this thread. ")
So much to learn, I'm just really diggin' it.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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So Billy,
Have you been lurking since July and decided to chime in on a relevant post or were you alerted to this thread? Just curious.
I'd like to check out that junk pile at Sibleys but am afraid to stop by as every time I se him he asks if I'll help put a new metal roof on the shop....
Cheers Billy ... etal.
Prod.
AKA Guy Kenny
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 16, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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That scrap heap hurts just a bit... Been trying to get ahold of some of the I-beam chocks for years, ever since climbing with one crazy bastard who had one he bootied. That thing was magic on almost every pitch.
To see a whole grave yard full of your own white whale just hurts a bit...
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