rappel with butterfly knot??????


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'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Dec 10, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
I'm with Malemute - great knot!

The Butterfly would work, but man oh man, is it ever hard to tie into two pieces of rope as you have shown! It would be easy to blow it, I would think.

And j-tree poached my Tech Tip! ;)

Ice climber
great white north
Sep 12, 2018 - 04:12pm PT

where barrel knot = double overhand bend DOB

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Sep 12, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
Dam by the time I got done reading that article I couldn't tell which knot he is NOW endorsing. He made a mistake earlier in writing, that is clear and he owns up to it and attempts to now clarify the situation. But he includes the original "mistake" post he wrote and by the time you finish reading you might be just as confused as I.

Here we go again, round and round, how do we choose a rappel knot? Maybe 140 meter ropes are the answer.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:37pm PT
the way I see it
if your rappelling you've done something wrong...

Haha, like most I hardly ever rappel if there's an alternative.
I like to keep it simple, have generally used a fisherman's and haven't been bitten by a snag, but good points by Malemute on the DOB
Blue Mountains Orangutan

Sport climber
Sydney, Australia
Sep 12, 2018 - 07:45pm PT
I've still got no idea what the problem is with the EDK. Yes it looks like it will kill you but we know it doesn't, it's simple to tie, doesn't get caught up, easy to untie. I can't see any reason to use anything else for similar sized ropes. Just dress it well. I also find it weird that climbers tie a backup EDK, it just makes it more likely to get snagged and if you dress the first one well it's pointless.

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 12, 2018 - 09:41pm PT
I've switched over to an even more compact solution then the one I posted earlier. If this was tied with ropes of different diameters, it should be arranged so that the thinner rope is the blue rope, for the same reason explained in my earlier post.

The tails are pictured shorter than they should be for compactness of the illustrations. Testing was done with 100mm tails, 200--300mm recommended for field use.

Tucked EDK from p. 38 http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/01...
Tucked EDK from p. 38 http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/01_Knots.pdf
Credit: rgold

Ice climber
great white north
Dec 26, 2018 - 03:40pm PT

A comparison of EDK vs figure 8

more at https://www.youtube.com/user/rdelaney65/videos

also see https://www.youtube.com/user/alanleeknots/videos

A long way from where I started
Dec 26, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
So, what is the downside of the EDK?

As far as I can tell from this short thread, and many other discussions both online and IRL, and years of using it, there is no real-world problem with it, and a lot of advantages.

Yeah, sure, it's hard to accept that something that simple is the best choice. Shouldn't we be using something esoteric instead of what your toddler is learning to tie his shoes with? But really, is there any reason to use something else?

Dec 26, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
So, what is the downside of the EDK?

As far as I can tell from this short thread...

Hmm, subconsciously answers own question?
Long tails and a stopper OH on one strand.


Ice climber
great white north
Dec 26, 2018 - 08:56pm PT

An Analysis of the Structure of Bowlines

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
It must be about 18 years ago, I was climbing at The Gunks with Chick Holtkamp, Bob Yoho, and Dick Williams. We were setting up to do the rap off the top of the McCarthy Wall and Williams threw the ropes together with that butterfly knot. I'd never seen it used for rapping, and dared look at it askance. I don't remember his exact words, but he made me go first. It held.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 26, 2018 - 09:16pm PT
Knots aside,
Wonder what became of Whitemeat?

Kid was getting after it hard a few years back,
then poof,
gone from ST radar.

Hope he's well,
carry on...


Trad climber
Dec 26, 2018 - 11:15pm PT
I understand learning new knots. But why add a funky knot that is not mainstream? I hate it it when someone does this on rappel. Most accidents happen with a rappel. Why make all these variations?

Are you trying to be trick? The standard knots have worked for me for 3 decades.


Dec 27, 2018 - 12:06am PT
Link often referred to with data from testing flat overhand and flat figure eight:

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 28, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
KISS I have been climbing 37+ years and I only know about 6 knots. so far that has been just fine.

Mountain climber
The Ocean
Dec 28, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
Whatever happened to whitemeat?

Trad climber
Chamonix, France
Jan 20, 2019 - 03:46am PT
Whatever happened to whitemeat?

Yes, I've wondered this too. Anyone know?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 20, 2019 - 10:48am PT
I wonder if anyone has tested a double fishermans knot with a tail pass through the center on each side to make it a bit easier to untie. Using a knot that loads in line and will accommodate two different diameter ropes is a plus which is why I use it generally
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