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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Nov 21, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
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Epilogue: just months after making this video, Ammon McNeely cratered while base jumping and had to tie off his foot with the parachute cord to avoid bleeding out. Now, for the almost first time, we take you live to watch the accident ...
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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I thought it was well done, kept my interest, and flowed nicely. It covered what has made the FAists notorious. But, what has always been of interest to me was not talked about, really. That a route so artificial in design... (and we could talk about AID in general ad nauseum at this point) and on such an iconic, revered, and majestic cliff that had such an amazing climbing history... should have quite justifiably have been strongly discouraged. An educational and reasonable dialog with the FAists seemed highly recommended, to me. But, the threats... (which are for sissies, but I haven't met too many climbers who are actually fighting tough guys (thank goodness), a solid overhand right would have made all those big talkers back down real quick like me thinks, but Mark and Richard were not exactly fighting tough guys either, hehe)... and pooping was the stuff of ladyboys. It made those people look foolish and their potential justifiable viewpoint look dubious, at best.
One other interesting point in the film, to me, was Mark Smith's comment about his reflection of his actions. By reading him online over the years he seems much more reasonable than Richard. Much less emotionally and personally attached. He doesn't come off like this route defines him as a person the way Richard does. And, yet... and yet he says he can't think of even one thing he could have done differently to avoid the controversy. What's that saying? If you still see things the same way you did 30 years ago, you just wasted 30 years. Or something like that. haha
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Nov 21, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
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Well Rudder, I appreciate what you're saying, and as I've considered all of this, a certain amount of it mirrors my own opinions. Though I would caution you regarding a judgment that Mark Smith wasted the past 30 years... You'd have to know him, see the good he's done, understand the impact that he's had on others. Having known him for several decades, if I am similar to who he is now when I reach his age, I will consider myself to have lived a well lived life indeed.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
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I've read that through the years, which is why I was surprised by his remark...
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 21, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
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Gollum vs. dweezil(s). The dweezils come off better.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2013 - 01:19am PT
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Rudder, I find your last lengthy post to be mostly a lot of unfounded speculation.
That a route so artificial in design...and on such an iconic, revered, and majestic cliff that had such an amazing climbing history... should have quite justifiably have been strongly discouraged Ah, yes. Iconic, majestic, even revered. Yes, yes, such a noble cliff must not be defiled by, gasp, an artificial line. Well, why did Toni Yaniro make a serious attempt up the heart of the slab back in the late 70's, leaving a bolt at his high point 200 ft off the deck? Tony, of course, was an insider, probably the first person to lead 5.13. So for him it's fine. But for those two inexperienced kids, Jensen and Smith, it is, well, "strongly discouraged."
the threats... (which are for sissies ... a solid overhand right would have made all those big talkers back down real quick like me thinks, but Mark and Richard were not exactly fighting tough guys You have no idea what you are talking about, not a clue as to what happened, and what could have happened if it had played out differently.
One other interesting point in the film, to me, was Mark Smith's comment about his reflection of his actions. By reading him online over the years he seems much more reasonable than Richard. Much less emotionally and personally attached. So, Rudder, what do you think about Rosa Parks? Let's see. She boarded that bus knowing what she was going to do, that she was going to take an open seat on a bus that would fill up. That she would be asked to move. That she would refuse. That she would be arrested. That she would be jailed. Doesn't that seem a little strident, a little controversial, a little unnecessary? Could she not simply have written some nice ladylike letters to the editor of the local paper. Or maybe even stretch herself a little and join a quiet march for civil rights. You know, be a little bit more like her sister and not create a stir? Who was the better person? Those who passively took it, or her?
At our core, Richard and I hold a very similar view. Our inward workings do not diverge as our outward personas might lead one to assume. In the end, it's been Richard's persistence to respond to the incredible flak, misstatements, and at times outright lies that has brought people into this discussion, a discussion that ultimately lead to the SA. Was the SA a good thing? Was it a good trip for Ammon and Kait? Is there any value in the film? Well, you can thank Richard that any of those things exist. I'm not much more reasonable. Rather, Richard is much less willing to be demeaned and dismissed without self defense. I don't see that as a negative.
And, yet... and yet he says he can't think of even one thing he could have done differently to avoid the controversy. What's that saying? If you still see things the same way you did 30 years ago, you just wasted 30 years. First you laud me for WoS not defining my life (unlike that bad boy Richard). Then you trash the life that you lauded because of my perspective regarding WoS. Quite amazing logic.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 22, 2013 - 02:25am PT
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Are you comparing yourself to Toni Yaniro? Really? ;)
And comparing yourself to Rosa Parks? Seriously? haha A slab climb compared to the plight of a race of people who were forced into slavery for centuries and did not have equal rights in this country until 1966? Alrighty then...
I'm not much more reasonable.
Evidently...
Oh and I apologize for using an expression that was meant to suggest we should develop a more seasoned outlook as we grow older but could be taken to mean something else. I've always thought you and Richard were good people, at least from what I've read of you. But, I was still surprised by your remark in the film. I mean even when I do something really well in my life, a project let's say, I can always think of a million things I could have done better.
As for Ammon... he brought a whole lot of credibility to the situation... which is nice. :)
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2013 - 02:42am PT
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Tony tries slab. That's fine.
Jensen/Smith tries slab. That's to be strongly discouraged.
Conclusion: Smith equates himself with Yaniro.
Really?
Smith: People that make us feel uncomfortable often are people that make a difference, consider Rosa Parks.
Conclusion: Smith equates Jensen with Rosa Parks.
Really?
when I do something really well in my life, a project let's say, I can always think of a million things I could have done better. What I intended to convey, in quote from the film to which you refer, is that from the time when we showed up in the Valley until we finished the route, we did everything within our power to avoid confrontation and controversy. You have extrapolated my statement far beyond what was meant. In your defense, perhaps my statement, which is taken out of a long interview, loses enough context to lead to your conclusion. Of course I would do some things differently in the larger context. But I don't think that, from the point we arrived to do the climb, we could have done anything to prevent the confrontation.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Nov 22, 2013 - 03:35am PT
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Oh, howdy Mark. ;)
Listen, I was wondering, if I used a smiley face at the end of my sentences every time I made a demeaning statement, would you find the sincerity of those emoticons dubious? ;)
It seems disempowering to imply that it is unreasonable to be personally or emotionally attached to an important event in your life, or to argue on your own behalf, especially when ignoring the issue has not worked in your favor.
Of course I would do some things differently in the larger context. But I don't think that, from the point we arrived to do the climb, we could have done anything to prevent the confrontation.
I also get a vibe of "blaming the victim" from folk who imply that you and Richard could have or should have been responsible for these guys not harassing, vandalizing, threatening, or attempting physical injury to the two of you. I don't know if that was Rudder's intent in this case, though I do see it happen frequently in these threads.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 22, 2013 - 09:47am PT
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But I don't think that, from the point we arrived to do the climb, we could have done anything to prevent the confrontation.
That's what I picked up from the film... that's the part that surprised me... that you would still think that.
This is the right thread and forum for making comments about the film, right? Just checking. ;)
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 22, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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There's trouble everywhere in life, but much of it can be avoided. Mark says that it was impossible to avoid. Sounds Grossmanish. And surprised me because of my speculation about Mark based on what I've read online. If Richard had said it I wouldn't have noticed. But Mark now says he's really actually like Richard. So okay, if I had known that I would not have been surprised.
outrageous? I guess you're suggesting my comments are more evocative than the story. But I've always found the story interesting. I've always thought it was a lot more than just a couple of guys minding their own business that were harassed. That would be a pretty boring story and that would make my comments merit-less .
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Nov 22, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
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I raise my toast made with Grainiac bread to you! :) And if you haven't tried Grainiac bread yet you are missing out. It actually is outrageous! :)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 22, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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Does anyone else think there is a "tempest in a teapot" element to this whole story? Such drama, so many recriminations......it is only a rock climb gentlemen and one of many on El Cap.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 22, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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Jim, you hop onto WoS threads now and then to say the same thing. It's pretty transparent.
ALL of climbing amounts to a "tempest in a teapot," even all of yours. So, every time you float your "lofty" line, keep in mind that none of your own ascents matters in the slightest. Your chosen sword cuts all ways. So, nothing to see here, nothing to talk about, nothing to care about... none of it really matters, and that includes you.
Apparently WoS mattered to Ammon, Kait, Jeff, etc. Should it not have?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 22, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
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WoS is a tempest in a teapot.
Cerro Torre is a bit more important.
(Don't freak. I thought the shitters were wrong)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 22, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
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I hope i am always transparent madbolter 1, that's why i don't have an avatar. Get your point though, it is important to them, i'll just keep my nose out of it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 22, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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"...more important..."
LOL None of it is "more important" on even a sliding scale. People have their preferences. End of story.
Oh, and we're all gonna die.
Oh, and 100 years from now (probably much sooner), nobody is gonna care about any of the "glory days" any of us have had.
Regarding all of the other opinions, Kait said it best (most important line in the movie): "Four people know what's up there; four people know what that route's about."
All the rest are talking heads.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Nov 22, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Oh, and we're all gonna die.
Oh, and 100 years from now (probably much sooner), nobody is gonna care about any of the "glory days" any of us have had.
But we'll care what we did. And God will care what we did.
Living a meaningful life means deciding what, on a sliding scale, is most important to us, and living congruent with that.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 22, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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P5 Klaus, or so it is said in one of the 5,000 post on 29 different threads on the matter.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 22, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
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What?? a bunch of hotshot motivated young guns got in a competitive turf war. Some of the folks might have been a bit threatening, rude or snotty....
LOL the only thing different about this than what happens almost everywhere in so many different "hoods" is no one got hurt.. just a bit of sh#t slinging (that's odd but certainly not unheard of).. several embarrassed individuals grew up and became at least semi-reasonable adults eventually.
Most of us grow up a bit as time goes on.
Guess I ought to get this film though..it's an interesting story if nothing else.
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