OT: Next Confederate Flag I see = Free trip to Hospital

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Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
I've done a lot of reading on it, and seen several movies on American Slavery - last night I watched 12 Years a Slave.

It was very difficult to watch.

I think it's good to be reminded how terrible we can be as human beings, to each other. I can't even imagine doing those things to another person, or being on the receiving end. Even so, it was a way of life for a very long time, and slavery in some forms continues today in different parts of the world.

I'm amazed what we allow to pass as remembering "heritage"...whatever the f*ck that means.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
It is the flag of people who enthusiastically attacked and killed American soldiers.

If they were brown skinned and had a different religion, we'd call them terrorists.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
That oughta solve it.

DMT
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
My understanding is that lower-functioning individuals often respond best to losing teeth.

You don't find much lower-functioning maggots than a racist.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Confederate flag is nothing. Here in The 909, you're liable to see what I saw at the grocery store the other day: A gal with a saucer-sized Swastika tattooed in the tramp-stamp position.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
"Don't tread on me!"

"I have every right to say anything I want to say!"

"I have every right to do anything I want to do!"

"I have every right to have any gun I want to have!"

"If you don't like this, you are a commie-loving liberal!"
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Have to agree on low life racist maggots. But right or wrong the confederate flag means more to lot of southerners than a legacy of racism. I don't think it can be beat out of them but I hope you try!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:45pm PT

I'm still trying to figure this one out.

Curt
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
Oh, they definitely have the right to wear/fly one.

I would submit that I also have the right to store my #4-Camalot fists inside oral cavities as well.

EDIT: Dingus, please enlighten us as the secrets of what it might mean to them that has any tangible worth.

If you can, that would be most excellent.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Most of the men that did the dying on the Southern side never owned a slave, and yes, they're Americans too.

I agree racism is way wrong.


I would submit that I also have the right to store my #4-Camalot fists inside oral cavities as well.

Actually, one is considered free speech, and one is considered assault.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Pride of the underdogs. Understand that most who fought were not slave holders and were not fighting for plantations' rights. The subsequent 50 years of carpet bagging 'reconstruction' built a multi-generational antipathy. Racism crept back in with the 2nd ku klux klan. Racism is there now and somewhat prevalent. So too is it here in CA though its less overt here.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
A gal with a saucer-sized Swastika tattooed in the tramp-stamp position.

Maybe she's a Hindu.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Most of the men that did the dying on the Southern side never owned a slave, and yes, they're Americans too.

I agree racism is way wrong.

...

Actually, one is considered free speech, and one is considered assault.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between owning a slave and fighting for that right, or not owning one and fighting for that right. It's a mentality that is not justifiable. I've yet to hear a reasonable justification for "pride" in fighting for a portion of our nation that stood for such terrible practices.

One is considered assault? Oh, I didn't know that. Gracias.
Deekaid

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
why tell us? go do it
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
The Southeren Flag has nothing to do with Racsitism per say, it's not about slaves it's about Rebellion . standing up to what was perceived at the time as Ecomomic Slaverey of the South by the North. It's about Southeren Pride. . .
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 8, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
It was about the freedom to enslave others.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
150 years after slavery was outlawed ,political interest groups are still ginning up and inflaming a new Civil War of sorts.

I've yet to hear a reasonable justification for "pride" in fighting for a portion of our nation that stood for such terrible practices.

The fact that Jim Crow laws and widespread segregation and discrimination existed in the 1940s did not prevent many brave soldiers , black and white and Latino and Asian, from fighting and dying for their country in WWII .
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
I'm not sure I understand the difference between owning a slave and fighting for that right, or not owning one and fighting for that right. It's a mentality that is not justifiable. I've yet to hear a reasonable justification for "pride" in fighting for a portion of our nation that stood for such terrible practices.

Perhaps you should read up on the issue. Some people like to oversimplify the issue. Kind of like blaming Obama for all federal debt that has accrued during his presidency.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
The whole ending slavery thing came up with Lincoln all after the wAr began. I don't care if you westerners don't get it. Those who did he fighting were not fighting to uphold slavery. They were fighting for their country and to this day many southerners take pride in that. Twist it any Y you wish. My experience is low brow people ENOY violence and threatening people.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
http://www.historynet.com/americas-civil-war-missouri-and-kansas.htm


The Kansas/Missouri border wars...^^^^^
Deekaid

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
itg troll
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
For anyone who might be interested:

http://dixieoutfitters.com/p/franchise-stores
Deekaid

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
uh oh, sketch ...it is small but it is there ...prepare for itg knuckle sandwich
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
This one is worth a read!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/black-woman-recalls-day-saved-alleged-kkk-member-mob-article-1.1501050

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Racism is there now and somewhat prevalent. So too is it here in CA though its less overt here.

I don't know about that. When I go back to southern Indiana, which is the South, not mid-west, I notice it's now much more integrated than what I see here in LA.

And slavery had a lot to do with the Civil War.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Check out footnote 1 to In re Brown,180 B.R. 325, 1995 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 4871, (U.S.D.C. S.D. Ga. 1995)

[I added the boldface and italics in that footnote]

OPINION BY: B. AVANT EDENFIELD

OPINION


[*325] ORDER

The Browns filed this appeal from an order of Chief Judge Lamar Davis of the United States Bankruptcy Court. Appellees have filed a motion to dismiss, which the Court now grants.

Pursuant to Bankruptcy Rule 8007, the Record on Appeal was docketed with this Court on November 10, 1994, obligating Appellants to file their brief within fifteen days. Bankruptcy Rule 8009(a)(1). Appellants filed their brief on February 3, 1995, more than two months later. They missed the deadline. 1 Although the Court readily grants extensions [**2] of time if counsel is faced with a family emergency, here (a) Appellants' counsel never asked the Court for an extension [*326] in light of his father's illness, 2 and (b) that unfortunate occurrence cannot account for missing the deadline by nine weeks.

FOOTNOTES

1 The word "deadline" was coined by Union soldiers held at the Andersonville prison camp during the War of Northern Aggression. Confederate guards summarily executed any prisoner crossing a preordained line on the camp grounds; thus, the term "deadline." See McKinley Cantor, Andersonville (1955). While the Court does not contemplate as harsh a rejoinder to Appellants' counsel's crossing of this Court's preordained line, it will still be, well, "fatal" to his claim. See also Burns v. Savannah Airport Comm'n, CV 493-240 (S.D.Ga. Oct. 21, 1994) (making remarkably similar observations).

2 Counsel first asked for leave to file his brief on January 26, 1995, two months after it was due. The Court hopes it is not unduly troubling anyone by kindly requesting that motions for extensions of time be filed before the deadline for filing the materials in question.


[**3] Normally the Court would end here, but Appellants' response to Appellee's motion to dismiss requires the Court to pursue some necessary clarifications on the subject of inexcusable--as opposed to excusable--delay. FIRST: Blaming the United States Postal Service DOES NOT CREATE EXCUSABLE DELAY. SECOND: Blaming the lack of resources that plagues many sole practitioners DOES NOT CREATE EXCUSABLE DELAY. THIRD: Blaming the flu DOES NOT CREATE EXCUSABLE DELAY. FOURTH: Blaming the Court for "extended holiday breaks" DOES NOT CREATE EXCUSABLE DELAY. 3 FIFTH: Blaming clients for as of yet only paying "a small portion of the fees incurred in prosecuting this action" DOES NOT CREATE EXCUSABLE DELAY.

FOOTNOTES

3 The Court was closed for one weekday during the month of December, 1995: the day after Christmas.


The Court sincerely hopes that the above enumerations further guide members of the bar along the path of trouble-free litigation. Appellee's motion to dismiss this appeal [**4] is GRANTED.

SO ORDERED this 28th day of February, 1995.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
That's interesting, John...but what's your point, exactly?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
Congratulations, sketch. You have much to be proud of.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
They were fighting for their country


Most of them were fighting for their state.

They already had a country, but they just didn't like where it was going, with an abolitionist in the White House and all.

This whole human rights movement was not gonna be good for business.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Apogee, my point is that in 1995, a United States District Judge (in some ways the most powerful federal position) referred to the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression." Admittedly, the entire opinion was written with his tongue firmly in his cheek, but even that humor discloses an attitude.

While I agree with Gary, both that racism is at least as prevalent in LA as it is in "the south" and that slavery was a very significant factor in the Civil War ab initio, there was still a feeling among non-slaveholding southerners that they were being exploited and invaded by the north.

John
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
I think it's good to be reminded how terrible we can be as human beings, to each other

dr heal thyself
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Most of them were fighting for their state.

They already had a country, but they just didn't like where it was going, with an abolitionist in the White House and all.

Dave, I think you're correct that they were fighting for their state, but most thought of their state as their country. Robert E. Lee's words were that he owed "a duty to my country, Virginia."

And Sketch, while I agree that the rebel flag has a meaning different from racism for many, it has the meaning implied by the lynching in the picture Gary posted for a great many as well. Under the First Amendment, we protect offensive speech, but the fact that speech is protected does not make it inoffensive.

John
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
I thought the Confederate Flag was symbolic of the Dukes of Hazard and the General Lee.

Racism sucks.....so does any type of "ism"

Unfortunately, I see our country becoming more divided along race and or religious lines.

Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Had to go train some folks - interesting responses in the interim. Thanks for chiming in - even the fools.

why tell us? go do it

Great point. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any between 11pm last night when I left the movie, and this morning when I found my computer. Rest assured, I would have swung for the fences, had I.

The fact that Jim Crow laws and widespread segregation and discrimination existed in the 1940s did not prevent many brave soldiers , black and white and Latino and Asian, from fighting and dying for their country in WWII .

Not sure you got what I was saying. I don't see any reason to have pride for fighting for the south in the civil war.

Perhaps you should read up on the issue. Some people like to oversimplify the issue. Kind of like blaming Obama for all federal debt that has accrued during his presidency.

Aren't you in the wrong thread? I do "read up" on the issue. I love those that try to dress it up as anything other than what the underlying issue was: owning slaves as a means to economic prosperity.

My experience is low brow people ENOY violence and threatening people.

The reality is several-fold: Education is abysmal, which leads to ignorance on most matters - including race relations. In addition, there aren't enough harsh consequences for actions in our country (unless you're black). I'm just doing my part, which is all I can do - also stoking discussion. When you do not act for things that are just, there is no justice. Some of us have spines, but I know it's not for everyone. I used to shout-down the Klan when they'd hold public rallies when I was younger in Ohio.

Probably the most interesting part of this whole thing, is that none of us can really understand what happened back then (unless the one black rock climber is lurking).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
This whole human rights movement was not gonna be good for business.

That was only true for a select few plantation owners. Overall it should
have been very good if it hadn't have been for the carpetbaggers and
a few other minor inconveniences like not being able to vote and such.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Yes, I do.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

sorry.

But it's not based on sleazy behavior, like posting an offensive lynching picture. I'll leave you to that kind of misguided pride.

Let me guess - you're going, to...rise again?

All the viagra in the world couldn't make that happen
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
That was only true for a select few plantation owners.

Oh no, Lincoln was gunna take yer job and destroy every hard-working white man's way of life.

The Koch Brothers ... er ... I mean, the plantation owners said it, so it's gotta be true.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Let me guess - you're going, to...rise again?

All the viagra in the world couldn't make that happen

You're not really as stupid as you seem, are you?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
You're not really as stupid as you seem, are you?

Wow.

You've got some giant testicles - you ask ME that ^^^

after you post this?

the tiny penis is strong with this one
the tiny penis is strong with this one
Credit: Burch3y
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Whoever controls the media, controls the mind.
-Jim Morrison
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Wow.

You've got some giant testicles - you ask ME that ^^^

after you post this?

You're just trolling, too?

My mistake.

I thought you were serious about all this silliness.
Deekaid

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
too bad you didn't see one because you would either be arrested or in the hospital yourself and we would not have to endure this thread.

don't get me wrong I fundamentally agree with you I just cannot stand internet sh#t talking as it pertains to kicking someone's ass

and speaking of enduring I am out of this troll thread
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Let's start off a thread about a sensitive subject with the threat of violence and see where it goes, shall we?
beaner

Social climber
Maine
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Here in Maine, especially outside of the greater Portland area, it isn't that uncommon to see some stupid redneck with a confederate flag bumper sticker. This is despite the fact that this as#@&%e most likely has ancestors that fought against the Confederacy in the Civil War (Maine contributed the most soldiers in proportion to its population). I don't get it. I guess that's why they call us the "deep south of the north" (southern and coastal Maine are quite liberal, the rest of Maine is not).

Confederate flag is nothing. Here in The 909, you're liable to see what I saw at the grocery store the other day: A gal with a saucer-sized Swastika tattooed in the tramp-stamp position.

I was sitting my my car in the parking lot at Trader Joe's / Eastern Mountain Sports in Portland Maine. My young son had fallen asleep, so my wife had gone into TJ's while I waited. Two dudes came walking down the side walk, one was shirtless, pretty ripped, and sporting a huge swastika tattoo on his chest -- like Ed Norton straight out of American History X). Dude grabs a button-up shirt that was hanging off his belt and throws it on before heading into Trader Joe's. A little while later I see him and his buddy come out. As soon as he was out the door he started unbuttoning his shirt and had it off by the time he hit the sidewalk. I was pretty shocked and disgusted. I've grown up in Maine and never really though of Neo Nazis as having much of a presence.
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 8, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
joke time

http://www.f*#kthesouth.com

^^funny shit!^^
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Not a troll thread.

I'm in the habit of actually posting what I mean.

Strange concept? Probably to the man-boys that permeate the online forums.

I will admit the title is a little over-the-top, but there is no silliness here.

There's nothing silly about racism, or those that try so hard to make excuses for the symbols or remnants.

Guess what guys? Critical thinkers don't buy it.

In this particular film, there's a scene where the main character hangs by a noose just close enough to the ground for his toes to touch, to keep him from choking, and nobody cuts him down for ages.

I could feel the BP rising as the time ticked on - we're distracted by so much and forget how twisted and wrong so many "people" on this planet are. Unfortunately, the most violent are typically associated with those twisted beliefs.

I'm suggesting we change that. Sorry if that rubs the closet-racists the wrong way. You'll have to forgive me if I don't give a sh*t.

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
Your thread title, like so much of what's posted in off topic/controversial threads, is way over the top. Unfortunately, posters who make these over the top posts often think their statements are completely appropriate... undeserving of criticism or mockery. That's flawed thinking.

If you want to have a serious discussion, don't start it with inflammatory nonsense.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
I seriously question the pervasive stereotype of racist Southerners. I aver
that an equal percentage exist in Yankee Land. I suppose we should consult
with the Southern Poverty Law Center on this.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 8, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Lynyrd Skynyrd rocks. Racists suck. Skynyrd rocks the suck.

Burch, you don't want to be like this guy, do you?

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/03/26/88817/bumper-sticker-violence/

I suggest you engage them in a conversation, tell them Jesus was black and sucked cawks for a living. That should give you everything you need to defend yourself.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 8, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
I have zero tolerance for racism.
this just in

climber
north fork
Nov 8, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Intolerance for intolerance.
Club

climber
Birmingham
Nov 8, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Burchy Buddy,

I know you are emotional right now. You have been to a movie that was made to touch you that way. And that's OK. But please, now that you're interested in the topic go get some huge volumes of good books that cover that whole historic period of our incredible nation.

Oh and by the way, #4 Camalot is tight hands for me.

Martin
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 8, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Intolerance for intolerance.

In this case, yes. Without a doubt.

Edit; To be clear, I'm not condoning violence. I'm not a violent person.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 8, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Yay! Fight racism with violence.
Psilocyborg

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Oh when will we learn we cant beat anything out of anyone.
Psilocyborg

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Racism is almost dead. Predudice is a human trait....and isnt going anywhere. See any comment on this forum with the word redneck in it.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Racism is not dead. It's just not as out in the open, like it used to be.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Your thread title, like so much of what's posted in off topic/controversial threads, is way over the top. Unfortunately, posters who make these over the top posts often think their statements are completely appropriate... undeserving of criticism or mockery. That's flawed thinking.

If you want to have a serious discussion, don't start it with inflammatory nonsense.

I'm really starting to understand that you're an idiot. My initial post is not over the top. Over the top thread titles = more clicks, at a minimum.

Again - aren't you supposed to be penis-sword-fighting over in the Global Warming thread?

I seriously question the pervasive stereotype of racist Southerners. I aver
that an equal percentage exist in Yankee Land.

I agree with you in a way - Overt shifts to Covert as you head north. Covert - hard to detect and deal with directly. Overt - get ready because you need to be kicked in the gizzard.

I know you are emotional right now. You have been to a movie that was made to touch you that way. And that's OK. But please, now that you're interested in the topic go get some huge volumes of good books that cover that whole historic period of our incredible nation.

You are right - the movie reminded me, yet again, of what animals we were as a nation to a particular group of people. It's one of many terrible things humans have done as we've moved along on this rock. Thank baby Jesus we have books/songs/movies/etc to refresh our sensibilities. I was recently refreshed - it doesn't detract from the topic.

You're doing two additional things here...#1 Assuming that you have any idea of my breadth of knowledge on American History (and the inception of my interest in the horrors of Slavery), and #2 Postulating that somehow my assertion that a confederate flag symbolizes, at its core, the attitude that supported and fought/died for the right to keep slaves, will be smashed to bits if I just do a little more research. Wrong on both counts, I'd say.

Oh and by the way, #4 Camalot is tight hands for me.

I'm sorry - must be tough to find gloves that fit, but nice and big to hold on to your heritage.

Racism is not dead. It's just not as out in the open, like it used to be.

It's still plenty in the open - interracial couple I know in Texas told by others in restaurants that they are "disgusting", as well as menaced with rifles on a freeway there because of it. They have a beautiful little girl, and he's said that he keeps his cool because he worries about keeping her safe.

I don't have any children yet. It's my job to make up for the punches that guys like him can't throw.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 8, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
TEARS

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 8, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Funny.....Nearly all Germans avoid connecting with their Nazi past with a vengeance....as they should. Many Southerners glorify their Confederate past....as they shouldn't.
Club

climber
Birmingham
Nov 8, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
//#2 Postulating that somehow my assertion that a confederate flag symbolizes, at its core, the attitude that supported and fought/died for the right to keep slaves, will be smashed to bits if I just do a little more research. Wrong on both counts, I'd say.//

I don't think it will be smashed to bits. I just think you will find more perspective.

but nice and big to hold on to your heritage.

I don't suppose it matters to you I'm African American.

Martin Colter
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 8, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
you can always make steam come out their ears when after they start their "it was about states rights!!!" slobbering,

calmly ask them if theyve read the secession ordinances which started the confederacy...

"whats that???"

why its the souths declaration of independance you goon

the only mention of "states rights" in it was your hero's BITCHING about northern states ENFORCING STATES RIGHTS!!!

ie, NOT obeying the laws of southern states in their own territories


the south left the union cuz they were butt hurts that the north was standing up for states rights dumbass


be sure you have a good stick in your hand right them so you can drop em as they start fumbling for their damn concealed carry...

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 8, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Things grow so well in the US because of the blood-soaked soil...
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Nov 8, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
#4 camalots is tips locks for me.
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
someone was just telling me
that folkss would take their
lunches to an overlook of the
battle fields and spectate
the civil war engagements.

like a lunch date,
"hey, let's go watch some bloodshed!"

burchy those kind of fist fights
haunt the conscience. they sound good
at the onset of the conflict,
though afterwards it is usually
clear to me that i should have
and would have been better heard
if i chose another means to
convey my message.

this realization doesn't mean i'll cease
my immaturity.

i've worn and will wear again
some dandy asse hats.

Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
I don't think it will be smashed to bits. I just think you will find more perspective.

More perspective, no doubt. Perspective that definitively shows that succession and the ensuing war WERE NOT primarily based on the desire to perpetuate forced servitude...I doubt it.

I don't suppose it matters to you I'm African American.

Burchy Buddy

I'm going to have to say I don't believe you. Brothers don't say "buddy".
mooch

Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
A gal with a saucer-sized Swastika tattooed in the tramp-stamp position.

Maybe she's a Hindu


Maybe she's Navajo.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
Ok class, American History 101...remember it?
The Civil War was about the states rights to self determination, in effect to secede from the union and go it alone. Slavery didn't become the motivating issue until 1862 when Lincoln emancipated the slaves IN THE REBELLIOUS STATES only. He did so in order to cripple the rebels war efforts.

As for the swaztika...aka the running wheel, stolen from the Hindus where it's a symbol of good luck or auspiciousness.

You probably don't want to go to prison for assault without having your facts straight eh?
mooch

Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
Hmmm....the Hindu's? Chicken or the egg?


http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/native-american-symbol-whirling-log-swastika/
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Ok class, American History 101...remember it?
The Civil War was about the states rights to self determination, in effect to secede from the union and go it alone. Slavery didn't become the motivating issue until 1862 when Lincoln emancipated the slaves IN THE REBELLIOUS STATES only. He did so in order to cripple the rebels war efforts.


You probably don't want to go to prison for assault without having your facts straight eh?

You must have gone to a different history class than I. The one I went didn't mince words and included all the facts. Slavery wasn't a motivating factor?...orrrrrr, the North's attitude towards the institution of Slavery (as South Carolina put it) along with their reluctance to comply with fugitive slave legislation put forth by the South, were MAJOR factors.

I'll just assume you're trolling, because even a toddler with google can find this out in about 2 seconds. Hilarious.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
"Maybe she's Navajo"

so here parents were stolen from their parents by christians for the express purpose of torture and sexual assault...

go figure
Club

climber
Birmingham
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
I'm going to have to say I don't believe you. Brothers don't say "buddy".

OK look Boy. I tried being polite with you. You came into this swinging. Why don't you come down to Kolivar district and check out my pigment.

MC
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
OK look Boy. I tried being polite with you. You came into this swinging. Why don't you come down to Kolivar district and check out my pigment.

MC

Look.

If you are indeed, a black man, that also rock climbs, and also uses the term "buddy"...I am impressed and pleased to make your acquaintance. You are one in 6 billion.

You'll have to forgive me if I think you're jackin' with your three-post (only on this thread) new account with no pictures/trip reports.
Psilocyborg

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
This thread just got even wierder. Burchy, if you think you are above all the other stupid people out there, think again
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
We'll take it to all kinds of weird, if that's how we gon' play it.

How am I above anyone? I'm the lowliest man here, by far.

Does wanting to stomp out overt racism make me above someone?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Id say look to your own posts for some "overt racism" Burchey...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
America has mostly moved beyond "overt" racisim. Unfortunately, the insidious racisim we now see will be very difficult to stamp out.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
Jim, you're probably right - it will never be gone completely, we're hard-wired to gravitate towards the similar, but fortunately we're equipped with reasoning minds to overcome that slight bit of nature.

Ron - I do believe you are dumber each and every day. We're impressed.
Buttttttttttt, because I need a good laugh - please give one example.
gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
http://www.whsv.com/news/headlines/Is-the-KKK-Active-in-Churchville-230572121.html


Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, eh?
:-/
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
"Bros dont say Buddy"??? Really Burchey?? Stereo typing are we?

You remind me of harry reid-tard sying he doesnt know why ANY hispanic in the country wouldnt vote dem.

Now ill let you extrapolate,, transmogrify and examine those statements and how they point directly to pre conceived notion and stereo typing...
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Ron, some day when you actually spend time with people of other races, you'll find that there is a lot of ribbing about the differences in race, which really boils down to culture. Slang, eating habits, hobbies, etc. Try it some time - I'm assuming you haven't, since you're either ignorant of such a thing, or feigning for the ALL TIME BEST TROLL EVAR.

Buddy, Awesome, etc are douchebag white boy terms - something like you'd hear me saying, for example.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
"Bros dont say Buddy"

Strange, my daughters black coach calls me buddy all the time.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Never mind,
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Thanks for further illustrating what's wrong with these OT threads. I made a civil, relevant post to you... and you respond by being an assh0le. Are you a drama queen in real life?

Seriously, what kind of backwards assh0le sees a movie... about events 150 years ago... and decides he's wants to publicly brag about putting someone in the hospital... over nothing?

You know... I've met some narrow-minded, ignorant assh0les in my time. You'd fit right in with them.

You sure have me pegged. Super narrow minded for sure. Ignorant as well. And what gives? I got angry watching a white-man rape, and then shred the flesh of a beautiful black woman (his property) with a whip...I should be shunned and pissed on for being upset that backwards morons still walk around with t-shirts emblazoned with the banner of that ethic and era. What a jerk I am!

Keep the hits coming, Sketch. If you truly agree (and I can't tell because of your hilarious joke flag posts and such) that there's nothing wrong with standing behind that terrible X, I'm not sure there's much more to be said to you. I'm hoping that's not the case, but I've been let down before.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
Historiography is a funny thing. Spin is always baked in. And the winners write the history...
Personally I've always been suspicious of mainline historical explanations for this reason. And in the 70s, when I was studying history various revisionist interpretations of the civil war were floating around. The marxist 'its all about economic domination dummy' line seemed plausible enough but I never really looked into much. But just now I found this website. At least on first blush it seems to disprove the economic interpretation... and support the slavery interpretation. Of course the real world is complicated....

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=92

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
Mannn,, 55 yrs old and im getting preached by a wanna be redneck youth LMAO!


This isnt going well for you Burch. Ive been to many southern states and hung with many Black Americans and even some Real Africans. I too found them capable of a full vocabulary as Survival mentions ,, including "buddy",, "Pal" AND "Doood"- can you believe it!!!!!!!!
And heres a real mind blower for you,, some of those Black Folk i hung with ALSO has confederate flags. Yaaahhh wrap yur head round that one!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
"Are you a drama queen in real life? "

Pot - Kettle - Black
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Django said it all
Ya get it
Or you don't
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
Rockermike, thanks for the link - I'll check it out.

Ron - it would appear, per normal, that the simple minds with nothing substantial to say, are hyper-focusing on one tiny thing.

Are there black people that have said the word "buddy" before?

You bet.

Are you seriously hanging your hat on that one thing I stated?

I don't put a lot of weight to claims made by anonymous 2-post avatars, and that's the core of that. If that gent was actually black - GREAT! We need some balance for all the narcissist crackers on the taco.

Hyper-focus on non-issues if you like. Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation. I know you can't help it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
Well to me, it appears you have accidentally divulged a bigoted stereo typing and not as a troll but just plain ol slipping of the fingers as you typed.


"Black people dont say this or that" was about all i needed to instantly see that. Just like your OP of wanting to "fight" owners of confederate flags. And you have no clue why they have those flags in the first place other than some preconceived stereo typing of anyone having a confederate flag is some KKK racist type. Did you graduate from Berkeley by chance?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
Well to me, it appears you have accidentally divulged a bigoted stereo typing and not as a troll but just plain ol slipping of the fingers as you typed.


"Black people dont say this or that" was about all i needed to instantly see that. Just like your OP of wanting to "fight" owners of confederate flags. And you have no clue why they have those flags in the first place other than some preconceived stereo typing of anyone having a confederate flag is some KKK racist type. Did you graduate from Berkeley by chance?

Back away from the bottle???
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Epic.

Ron F*#king Anderson chimes in on something,

Bow down to his knowledge.

He knows more about everything than everyone else.

Seriously, bow down. Ron wants to be king of ST.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 8, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Hardly brandon,, that would be like wanting to be the king of the leppers and loonies colony.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
You maggots have fun - I'm off to the TREE.
okie

Trad climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
This California yuppie is really worked up over that flag, huh? Wonder how much his boss pays him to go off ranting on the Taco.
He's off climbing now with his skinny cord and rack o' draws so the bloody fight for righteousness will have to wait until he's back on the clock after the weekend of playing.
Southern Man didn't need that carpetbagger Neil Young around...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 8, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
some of those Black Folk i hung with ALSO has confederate flags.

Yeah, I bet they has.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 8, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Trollin' is easy anymore here on the Taco. With all that medicine floating around , you'd think things would be a lot mellower, especially among(st) humpers of rock
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 8, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
The Civil War was about the states rights to self determination

In particular, their perceived right to F*#KING OWN other human beings.


That "states rights" euphemism is the biggest copout in American ... nay ... world history.

Goddamned right I'm a Califonia yuppie, off the clock and climbing this weekend.

But I was born a Pennsylvania Yankee...and my great great grandaddy marched with Sherman. Carried a torch when they burned Atlanta.

Not kidding!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 8, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
I wonder if the Johnny Reb soldier even thought about that kind of sh#t when he was blasting away at his cousin from 4 counties north of the farm. Ass end of a mule, butt end of a rifle.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Nov 8, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Burchey....

If you are still planning on moving to Asheville NC, I suggest you best prepare yourself for one bigass rude awakening. That there REB flag will be a regular sight on many back windows of them old rusted Ford/Chevy pick em ups with the shotgun and/or 30/30 etc hanging on the inside around them neck of the woods.

Seriously.


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 8, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Earlier in the month, I spent a day at Antietam. Truly a spiritual place. The cornfield, the bridge, the sunken road...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Ron retorted
And heres a real mind blower for you,, some of those Black Folk i hung with ALSO has confederate flags. Yaaahhh wrap yur head round that one!

Ugh, this thread Just.....ugh.
Gene

climber
Nov 8, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
I’m going way OT here for your Eastside history lesson.

During the Civil War, Lone Pine was a Confederate community. Independence was Yankee. Back then, the CSA Alabama, a Confederate raider, was reeking havoc on Yankee shipping. The good folks of Lone Pine named that hilly movie set east of town after the CSA Alabama.

In June 1864, a Yankee ship defeated the Alabama outside Cherbourg. That scurvy-ridden Union boat was the Kearsarge. Hence today you will find outside of Independence Kearsarge Pass, Kearsarge Peak, Kearsarge Lakes, Kearsarge Pinnacles, etc.

Bet you didn't know that. Carry on.

g
Tarzan

Trad climber
Vegas
Nov 8, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
If that whole war thing was to free slaves, and 500,000 white people died to free them, why haven't they done more with that opportunity? I spent a year in Fredricksburg Va and those blacks flat Hate white people. You get a burger in a drive thru and you can bet somebody black spit in it. Don't make sense. My people rode a boat away from the British from Ireland..got here then died to make Lincon a hero and they treat me like I still owe them something??? Super confusing.

Also, I heard Tavis Smiley say blacks are worse off since Obama than before?? How the f*#k can that be??
ddsstyle

Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Nov 8, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
"During the Civil War, Lone Pine was a Confederate community. Independence was Yankee. Back then, the CSA Alabama, a Confederate raider, was reeking havoc on Yankee shipping. The good folks of Lone Pine named that hilly movie set east of town after the CSA Alabama.

In June 1864, a Yankee ship defeated the Alabama outside Cherbourg. That scurvy-ridden Union boat was the Kearsarge...."



sources? not that i dont believe you, I just want to read more
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 8, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Burchey...Or you could join Chiefy down in Chalabama where football's still the roughest sport around...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:00am PT
DDS style...supposedly the mason dixon line if extended , separated Lone Pine and Independence or as a friend calls it , co-dependence...
Gene

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:16am PT
sources? not that i dont believe you, I just want to read more

The skipper of the Alabama is my great uncle X 5, Raphael Semmes. One of my most prized possessions is Uncle’s sword which was given back to him by the Captain of the Kearsarge after the Alabama struck its colors.

Alabama Hills: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama_Hills

USS Kearsarge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(1861);

CSS Alabama: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Alabama

Kearsarge Pass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kearsarge_Pass

Kearsarge Peak: http://www.summitpost.org/kearsarge-peak/151874

Cool, huh?

g
ddsstyle

Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:20am PT
yea it is a trip. i am gonna see if they have anything in the Eastern California Museum in Independence.
Gene

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:21am PT
Let me know what you find. Thanks.
ddsstyle

Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:29am PT
will do
MisterE

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Nice troll, Reb.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:42am PT
I was born in the South and grew up in a border state; the Stars and Bars should be buried and done with!

Nostalgia for what never was is known as propaganda when kept alive for political currency.

Appomattox should have settled the deal. We need another Sherman...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:54am PT
That's good stuff Gene!
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Nov 9, 2013 - 02:47am PT
I was under the impression that the war originally occurred over whether or not states have the right to secede from the Union. As stated up thread, the slavery issue came to bear after the war had begun. It was a major factor for sure, but hardly the only one.

You want a real example of glorifying slavers and mass murderers, look into the life history of Mr. Chris Columbus.
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:21am PT
I don't get that intelligent people in South Carolina put up with that Rebel Flag incorporated in the design of the state flag. In the battle of Gettysburg alone, 53,000 men died. The south lost 28,000 and the north lost 23,000 in a three day battle. That rebel flag represents 200 + years of human suffering under slavery-The North won the war- someone should tell South Carolina, and in deference to the men who died and the men that won the war-they need a new design-history lesson.. right..South Carolina's flag is offensive to say the least, and racist.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:28am PT
Alabama Hills is choss.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:23am PT
"If that whole war thing was to free slaves, and 500,000 white people died to free them, why haven't they done more with that opportunity? "

cuz we didnt free them,
only changed their ownership
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:42am PT
I was under the impression that the war originally occurred over whether or not states have the right to secede from the Union. As stated up thread, the slavery issue came to bear after the war had begun. It was a major factor for sure, but hardly the only one.

Details... schmetails.

Nobody cares that ending slavery wasn't a Civil War issue until more than a year after fighting began.

Manamachen - I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding the SC flag. It's a white palmetto tree and a white crescent moon on a blue background.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:13am PT
The Confederacy fought the Civil War so that a few southern aristocrats like Robert (religious fanatic) E. Lee could maintain their famously privileged lifestyles. The fact that this lifestyle could only be maintained with the dehumanization of an entire race of people somehow slipped thru their "christian" moral filter.
The war could only be fought on the backs of poor whites who were nearly as far away from the genteel lifestyle of their generals as the slaves who made it possible.
An interesting parallel today is the way the Republican Party gets poor whites to vote for policies which are clearly against their best interests.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:15am PT
Tarzan spewed
f that whole war thing was to free slaves, and 500,000 white people died to free them, why haven't they done more with that opportunity?

ugh this thread. THIS F*#KING THREAD!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:21am PT
^^^Did he actually say that?

He did say that.


Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:22am PT
I was under the impression that the war originally occurred over whether or not states have the right to secede from the Union.


It was about slavery.

How it started:

 Southern states were concerned that slavery was going to be eventually outlawed by the federal government. They saw a trend in recent legislation limiting the expansion of slavery in the new western states, and with the growing abolitionist movement. So they figured it was only a matter of time that slavery would be outlawed completely by the federal government.

 Lincoln was elected president in a somewhat unexpected victory (3 way race.) The Republican party was founded on an anti-slavery platform, so the south saw this as a huge warning sign.

 Southern states decided they didn't want to be part of a country that would not allow slavery, so they just declared themselves part of another country (secession.)

 Lincoln said that secession was not legal per the Constitution (at the time it was unclear if it was.) US federal troops remained in southern bases, but took no action.

 Confederate soldiers from South Carolina attacked the US federal base at Fort Sumter.

 Lincoln mobilized the US Army and went to war, with the goal of keeping the southern states as part of the United States (the Union.)

The war was legally/technically about the right to secede, and Lincoln never argued that "we must go to war to free the slaves." Since slavery was still legal at the time, Lincoln had no legal justification for going to war over slavery.

But there is no doubt that the primary reason the south wanted to secede was so that they could continue slavery.

[edit: misspelled secede a bunch of times ... same mistake I made in high school! ]
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:38am PT
secession...sorry couldn't help it. There was a clue in the post you cited.

I decided to check back in...train wreck. Stamping out overt racism by posting threats on a rock climbing site. I still say troll. Designed to inflame.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:50am PT
Thanks Dave, for correcting the ignorant crap that Sketch wrote.
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Burch3y. . . with threads like this you have the audacity to say you're not a troll?

You are the definition of the word!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Chris Mac's next This Week on Supertopo email:

-Ammon Get Well Thread: Wish him well!
-Salathe Soloed in 20 Hours: Holy crap!
-Racism Honeypot Thread: Turns out climbers are bigoted as#@&%es!
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 11:18am PT
you mean some climbers or are you including yourself?
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Thanks Dave, for correcting the ignorant crap that Sketch wrote.

Nice projection.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
It's not my fault you're ignorant. It's your fault.

Now go learn something.
Magic Ed

Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
We should all be like Panda Bears--black, white and Asian.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
BTW a few weeks ago near La Verkin Utah I saw a landscaping business truck that had two confederate flags on it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
California had PLENTY of confederates during the war. LA,, SACTO and many other major towns were PRO CONFEDERATE..That AFTER wiping out the local villagers.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 9, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
Wow, the US Civil War wasn't about slavery?

And physics based models that can't predict the future with 100% accuracy are useless... or worse, tools of a vast liberal conspiracy?

sketch is a certified fukwad. One of the dumbest of the dumb asses. Sounding more and more like blahblahblah, TGT, or skipt.


La Verkin is full of some of the worst racists around, rivaling northern ID/MT. I spent a summer there as a yoot. Fuk those guys.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
The Confederacy fought the Civil War so that a few southern aristocrats like Robert (religious fanatic) E. Lee could maintain their famously privileged lifestyles. The fact that this lifestyle could only be maintained with the dehumanization of an entire race of people somehow slipped thru their "christian" moral filter.

Interesting bit of fiction about Robert E. Lee. How many slaves did he own? What was the name of his plantation? You seem to be implying he played a role in secession from The Union. If so, that's total BS.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
It's not my fault you're ignorant. It's your fault.

Now go learn something.

You claimed I posted ignorant crap. What specifically were you talking about? Which statements?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
History is exactly that. Now consider for a moment how in the fact that the USA has LED the world in fighting racism Since that civil war. Where would the African race be today if none of that would have ever taken place?
Would we have a half black president today? Would civil rights be anywhere near what they are today?

I think it was one of Lee's close generals that said the greatest mistake was ever bringing slaves to America in the first place. So where would we all be NOW had it not been for the happenings of the past?

Then consider that Mexicans enslaved Indians, Indians enslaved whites so on and so forth. I believe it was African folk selling other African folk as well. It WASNT an "American" thing. Which is also why it didnt last.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Donnini's got the religious component bass ackwards.

The antislavery movement began in and was driven by church denominations in the northeast and west.


California had a large Copperhead contingent, so much so that a garrison was placed at Tejon Pass to keep them bottled up in the south. Some of the buildings are still there.

El Monte was a Copperhead hub and the sentiment lingered into the late 1970's with a strong American Nazi party presence.


If there'd never been slavery, there'd never have been a civil war.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:20pm PT


There's more than one flag you should look out for...



Although, the Japan/Korea/China trifecta hate eachother so intensely that maybe they can just deal while we all get really cool designs on our T-Shirts. Ain't no "it's a small world" out East.

And who is doling out these hospital trips, 'ol noodle-arm burch? Lol. Better pray the proud redneck didn't take High School Wrestling bub.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
sketch is a certified fukwad. One of the dumbest of the dumb asses.

Same old mechrist. Unusually high noise to signal ratio.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
White People are so pathetic. Even though a symbol of 'pride' and 'heritage' reminds MILLIONS of others of their oppression and role as second class citizens, ain't no budgin'! IT'S MAH FLAG YOU CAN TEAR FROM MAH COLD DED FINGERS!




So silly. You just have no idea how silly it looks. Please, carry on, and continue to be the laughing stock of the first world. Gives me something to read on a Saturday morning while sipping coffee.

Millions of your brothers and countrymen/women absolutely hate it, but sure. Fly it high and proud, because f*#k them.


elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
I suppose that the US flag is in the same class as the confederate flag in the eyes of many people in SE Asia, and other parts of the world.. we were invaders, baby killers, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocent people. It is instructive to look at the flag thing... any flag really.. (as the victors write the history in the context of their ideals).. in the eyes of the solders who actually fought in the wars under the various banners.

To the fighting solder war is not about the grand themes of the conflict, but about the brotherhood of those in battle with them. Soldiers don't fight for political reasons. They fight to stay alive and to keep their brothers in arms alive. No matter the politics. If one looks at the qualities of hard fighting soldiers, no matter the side they fight on, one can't but admire the qualities of courage, sacrifice, selflessness, determination and the willingness to die to save one's friends, under the most horrible of circumstances. I admire great soldiers, and fighting men in general, no matter on what side they fought. I am a graduate of the Virginia Military Institute, the institution which produced many of the commanders of the Southern Armies. Stonewall Jackson was an instructor there before he served and died in the service of his country. It is easy to look at such people from our present enlightenment. However, that is not an accurate view.

People should be viewed as they were in their own time. Jackson overcame many difficulties with intelligence and determination and his tactics are still studied in military schools today... one can say the same for Lee, Longstreet, Grant, Sherman, Romel, Patton... the list goes on and on. As Tennyson(thanks Crunch!) said in the "Charge of the Light Brigade", words to the effect... "ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die". That is the code of the soldier... other people get to weigh alternatives and whether the cause is just... "ours is but to do and die."

At VMI we remember the men who fought with honor, courage, and sacrifice, no matter the side they fought for. For me the confederate flag is a reminder of those men, and a way of honoring their sacrifice... it is not, for me, an endorsement of slavery. Like some have mentioned above,the men who fought under that flag were, most often, just simple men who had nothing to do with slavery and were, for the most part, drafted into service or went with the idea that they were protecting their homes from northern armies who invaded their homeland. The North invaded the South, you may recall. Education levels at that time in history were lower that we now can imagine.. the common man was largely ignorant of most things unrelated to how he was going to eek out a living for his family, in an age of manual labor. So I suggest here that nothing involved in the entire conflict was so simple as many of you seem to think... wars never are!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
About 90% of the southern soldiers NEVER OWNED A SLAVE in their lifes. Most only were richer than slaves by the fact they had a skeewarrel shootin rifle.
If Richmond Virginia wants to honor those that fought bravely then they should. Meanings CHANGE just like America did post war.

Silver lining is: From that war came the largest stride in human rights ever.


Many "groups" called for the Washington Redskins to change their name recently. Even though the vast majority of local Indians seemed totally un-bothered by that. Even thinking its a bit of an Honor. Me thinks this PC crap is yet another avenue to keep the fires of prejudice alive and well.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Interesting bit of fiction about Robert E. Lee. How many slaves did he own? What was the name of his plantation? You seem to be implying he played a role in secession from The Union. If so, that's total BS.

Wow, did shitch just imply Lee was not of prominent plantation stalk? He would have owned slaves and a plantation... if it weren't for his father's poor investments. But don't let reality skew your fantasy world fukwad.


From that war came the largest stride in human rights ever.

The US Civil War wasn't about slavery and the Federal Govt has no right to tell the states what to do? But on the bright side we made strides in human rights because of the Civil War? The naming of a football team and the Civil War are just examples of PC bullshit gone too far? Jesus you fuking idiots crack me up!!!!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
What bullsh#t. The confederate flag is for douchebag racists. The southern generals were traitors fighting to keep their status quo. All those states rights, northern aggression, etc. arguments are just an ignorant mask for rank racism.

My ancestors were Irish conscripts who fought for the confederacy , we have old confederate money and other stuff from the war. Whatev, I'm just glad they somehow managed to survive so I could be born and judge them!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
At some point "PC Crap" isn't about isn't about giving up things you love but about being a good person.

The National Congress of American Indians has asked that the team change it's name - I don't think anyone should be legislated to make ANY changes. Want a bible on your store front? Cool. A confederate flag on your truck on the way to the redskins before the clan rally? Go for it. But you are a dick, and I hope to the God you pretend exists that your kids grow up hating you and swing the other direction ;D
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
quick thread drift here... Mr Davis I know you are enamored with MMA but implying that only people with large arms and a wrestling background can fight is pretty naive
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
When i was in Georgia, i asked a new USFS friend why he had the stars and bars flying. He chuckled and told me,,"it aint about slavery - its about being proud of MY state TODAY and not wanting them idiot yankees to come down here and RUIN it." I laughed - telling him i could dig that. Sam is about as Black as Black gets. And some of you guys are just hilarious..
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 9, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Arguing history with climbers?

Would any of us argue climbing ethics with a noob who just saw Cliffhanger?



As the human race becomes more and more hybridized the issue of race will become moribund.

But here in Washington County, "Utah's Dixie", the stars and bars are ubiquitous, and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a closeted racist (and many don't even bother to hide it).

I live in a town that passed an ordnance banning the flying of a UN flag!
Plenty of Confederate flags though.

Burchy should climb here,...
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
Wow, did shitch just imply Lee was not of prominent plantation stalk? He would have owned slaves and a plantation... if it weren't for his father's poor investments. But don't let reality skew your fantasy world fukwad.

Your claim is conjecture.

What I said is true.

It's pathetic that you get so angry about factual, accurate statements.

Are you really that insecure?

There's nothing like a thread about racism (except maybe gay marriage or abortion) to bring out intolerance and hate among so called liberals.

Too funny!
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Washington, Jefferson, and others who were the founding fathers, owned slaves and wrote a constitution that didn't count them or women as citizens able to vote... how come all the haters who have shown up on this thread are not hating on them???
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
I suppose that the US flag is in the same class as the confederate flag in the eyes of many people in SE Asia, and other parts of the world.. we were invaders, baby killers, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocent people. It is instructive to look at the flag thing... any flag really.. (as the victors write the history in the context of their ideals).. in the eyes of the solders who actually fought in the wars under the various banners.

To the fighting solder war is not about the grand themes of the conflict, but about the brotherhood of those in battle with them. Soldiers don't fight for political reasons. They fight to stay alive and to keep their brothers in arms alive. No matter the politics. If one looks at the qualities of hard fighting soldiers, no matter the side they fight on, one can't but admire the qualities of courage, sacrifice, selflessness, determination and the willingness to die to save one's friends, under the most horrible of circumstances. I admire great soldiers, and fighting men in general, no matter on what side they fought. I am a graduate of the Virginia Military Institute, the institution which produced many of the commanders of the Southern Armies. Stonewall Jackson was an instructor there before he served and died in the service of his country. It is easy to look at such people from our present enlightenment. However, that is not an accurate view.

People should be viewed as they were in their own time.

Disagree. As time moves on, this becomes near impossible. When wars end it is the duty of the survivors to try to make sense of what happened, to learn and move on, hopefully prevent more bloodshed.

As Longfellow said in the "Charge of the Light Brigade", "ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die".

These lines illustrate just how reputations change (or how reputations are deliberately twisted to serve new purposes). You have the wrong poet, and the words are not quite right. They were written during the Crimea War and much celebrated at the time in the UK, during the height of Victorian pride and power. Which of course, led to hubris and the fighting of a war, a few decades later, fought with staggeringly cruel incompetence by the privileged, wealthy, upper-class officer classes of Europe.

After the First Word War war, the sentiments behind Tennyson's poem--and his entire reputation, really--were trashed. After that war, it became very clear that the surviving solders of Germany, France, Britain, America etc--who had fought with extraordinary bravery in horrific conditions--had far more in common with each other than they ever could have with the generals and aristocrats (and war-glorifying poets).

Which is true of all wars.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
No Hater here. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that version of confederate heraldry.

I don't emotionally connect it to slavery. I emotionally connect it to the Dukes of Hazard. A show I loved as a kid and to this day find better than most. As a once dirtbag climber I can relate a bit to that theme song.

Just'a good ol' boys
Never meanin' no harm.
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born

Staightnin' the curves
Flatnin the hills
Someday the mountain might get 'em
But the law never will

Makin' their way
The only way they know how
That's just a little bit more
Than the law will allow.

But I hate racism and the evils of slavery. If for a truly large number of people it is a symbol of racism. If some people use it to flaunt their racist views. That changes things a great deal.

What good there might actually be in the history of that symbol may be destroyed by those who use it to bully.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Nov 9, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Did somebody say "CONFEDERATE??

http://confederate.com/x132_hellcat_combat









AMERICAN V-TWIN POWER!
Psilocyborg

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
A flag simply is. It only has the power and meaning you ascribe to it.

It is like when the world was flat....then it was round
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Once upon a time,, a pirate flag was known for slavery, thievery murder and mayhem. Now days Climbers fly them proudly from El Cap.

Meanwhile some gangs frequently use the RAIDER symbol from the NFL league.



edit: Question to Burchey,, since you obviously see enough of these to become upset, you must have engaged your OP threat no? And,, how was that trip to the hospital? guffaw..
Anastasia

climber
Home
Nov 9, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
That is way too extreme!!!

Since I do spend time in the South let me just say this...

Confederate flag isn't a white power symbol. Not for many that do hang it up.

It's Southern Pride and about the South being "a different place." Different meaning the rules of Southern hospitality, how neighbors stick together and a suspicion of the law since it had a habit of being corrupt. It is why the T.V. show, The Dukes of Hazard had it on the General Lee (their car.) It's about black peas and grits, girls in jean shorts and drinking ice tea/moonshine in the shade.

Maybe that is the romanticizing of it... That is true... Yet it is what it is... I don't immediately think of White Power when I see a Confederate Flag. Now when I see a Nazi flag, now that sickens me deeply. Now that disgust me. Confederate... Well, remember... President Lincoln didn't emancipate the slaves until late in the war. So... It wasn't purely about slavery, it was about money and power. Plantations against the industrial states and who will have the overall say about how things are run. The war against slavery is also a bit romanticized, idealist, and not accurate.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
i go to look up "guys with black eyes" as i was going to post a joke Burcheys way..~~~~~~~There were more images of guys in EYE liner and eye makeup than actual "black eyes" as i would think of them, which were actually RARE in the google images... cheezus- freekin- rice....NO WAY IN H*LL i was gonna search "facial hematoma"....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Ron said
About 90% of the southern soldiers NEVER OWNED A SLAVE in their lifes.

Hey look I never actually owned a person I just killed other people to preserve the right to own people, ok? Don't act like I'm the bad guy.


Ron continued
Silver lining is: From that war came the largest stride in human rights ever.

It's true! Freed slaves were immediately given the right to vote, live where they liked and receive equal treatment from their police and government.

Ron invented
Many "groups" called for the Washington Redskins to change their name recently. Even though the vast majority of local Indians seemed totally un-bothered by that. Even thinking its a bit of an Honor. Me thinks this PC crap is yet another avenue to keep the fires of prejudice alive and well.

Hmmmm yes there's nothing people like more than having a sports team named a racial epithet used to dehumanize them. That's why I have a special place in my heart for the Harlem Honkies and their amazing mascot, Giant Head of Mitt Romney. I especially like the way they dress him in pleated pants and do that rhythmless, jerky dance to '"Play That Funky Music" at halftime. It just makes me feel like I'm a part of the game! Of course those jerks from the PC police keep the flames of prejudice alive and well by questioning whether or not this is just playing to a racial stereotype but we all know it's just that they're mad that white people suck at basketball.
Psilocyborg

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Anyone who thinks the civil war was about freeing black people from slavery is naive. That just isn't the way the world works, and especially isnt how america works
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
you guys do realize that burchy the one man army against racism is gone leaving you all to tear at each other to his eternal delight.

i am positive he could easily find some skinheads to take retribution on...i don't think he tried very hard.
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
and all the sh#t that people have come up with as racial slurs against white people has never bothered me in the least... honky what the hell is that anyway?
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
Do you know who we (USA) bought many slaves from? NATIVE AFRICANS
Point is- at that time most countries and cultures participated and it was a tribal thing not racial. The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism. I am sorry you aren't able to comprehend that. I hope your ignorant views do not permeate the rest of society.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Christ, what a bunch of idiots....

Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Dirtbag- It is hard to argue with facts
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
The argument that the confederate flag symbolizes something other than racism is circular, because the supposedly non-racist reasons offered up, i.e., the "culture" or "heritage" it signifies, are themselves racist.

Saying slavery was not the root of the civil war is profoundly ignorant.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Do you know who we (USA) bought many slaves from? NATIVE AFRICANS


It's true! White Americans didn't WANT slaves but they were forced upon them by Africans and then they came back to America with them and we're like "well crap what are we going to do with all this excess of human suffering I guess we'll grow stuff."
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Do you realize that slavery is illegal in most countries, including the USA? Because a facet of our (that includes you) history involved slaves, we can't fly a flag that has differing connotations from your ignorant opinion?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Were any of those countries established by seceding from other countries because they wanted to keep slavery legal?
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
High Desert DJ- are you confused that Africans sell Africans? It is still happening for your information.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
And Americans are selling Americans. You seem to be confusing knowing a fact and having a sense of morality.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Slavery is illegal in America. What is your point that people are still enslaved here?

"Although this exploitation is often not called slavery, the conditions are the same. People are sold like objects, forced to work for little or no pay and are at the mercy of their "employers"."

— Antislavery Society, What is Modern Slavery in Africa
Chugach

Trad climber
Vermont
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 8, 2013 - 09:13am PT
I've done a lot of reading on it, and seen several movies on American Slavery - last night I watched 12 Years a Slave. It was very difficult to watch. I think it's good to be reminded how terrible we can be as human beings, to each other. I can't even imagine doing those things to another person, or being on the receiving end. Even so, it was a way of life for a very long time, and slavery in some forms continues today in different parts of the world. I'm amazed what we allow to pass as remembering "heritage"...whatever the f*ck that means.


Oh grow up. You saw a movie and now you need to threaten violence on Supertopo? It's a symbol. Are you going to beat up a Tibetian Monk because they often wear the Swastika, an old sandskit symbol? Gonna burn a church because of their past sins? Dousche bag.

Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
I cannot post any links because I am on my phone and don't know how to do it... but if you google the meaning of the Confederate flag you might find it pretty interesting... one in particular called trainweb .org
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 9, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
Confederate flags are an important symbol. In this day and age, they give fair warning to stay away from the racist, backwoods, dipshet fuk who waves it, thus strengthening the gene pool by avoiding the high risk of congenital retardation.
jstan

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Ron said
About 90% of the southern soldiers NEVER OWNED A SLAVE in their lifes.

They never did own a slave in their lives.

Simply by letting someone convince them they were absolutely and totally RIGHT about an artificial issue (state's rights), they sacrificed lives, arms, and legs in an attempt to insure corporations ( plantation owners) they would not lose an investment of ten billion or so. And lost ten times or so as much in the effort.

In today's america this tactic is called, "externalization". Get someone else to pay your bills.

Sound familiar?

Anyone who feels they are right, absolutely right and without a doubt, has taken up residence in La La land.

The killer is that in the Jim Crow economy that followed plantation owners had the opportunity to pay less for labor than they did when they actually owned the slaves. When one died from starvation there was no capital loss. Just the need to go get another one.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
It is interesting that no one can make a response to my comments! Do you have no rebuttal to my facts?
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
NORTON "of course you can", fly the flag

Then why are you upset?
Chugach

Trad climber
Vermont
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Deekaid -
Nov 9, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
and all the sh#t that people have come up with as racial slurs against white people has never bothered me in the least... honky what the hell is that anyway?


White folks roll into the hood to buy drugs or sex and honk to get the sellers off their porch. That's what I always heard.

jstan

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
I post this so that we might get onto a subject that we all can treat entirely unemotionally.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
JStan How about the north ridge on the Grand Teton, it has been a few years. I hope they better snow this winter. It was sketchy on the upper two pitches last time i made a go at it.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Slavery is alive and well in our modern globe.

Slavery abolished in America or any other nation state ? That question is best answered by the Ho's.

Pimpin' is hard rapped the piece of sh#t gangster who managed to rhyme rhythmically and elevate his BS to being "Art". (the tunes are catchy though...)

Canada has a "Guest Worker" program that allows donut and hamburger franchisees to import people from around the word for 6 months of servitude and then, back you go ! Guess what ? No complaining !

Strippers, Prostitutes, dishwashers, gardeners, construction workers, farm hands in the Fraser Valley, (who are free from the government jackboot concerning decent living and working conditions because they are contractors without a contract)Nannies pushing strollers.

The list goes on but the one constant is the economic model of getting something for nothing.

Americans are comical in believing the hero Abraham Lincoln was the last example needed concerning vanquishing domestic slavery.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
What I said is true.

And for all the wrong reasons. Don't let reality deter you... keep spraying your deliberate misinformation far and wide.

jstan

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
I do believe this thread may now start to get traction.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Any advice on the last couple pitches on the north ridge of the Grand? I never found any anchor points except for a weighted chicken-head over slabs and warm snow!

If I flew the stars and bars would you help or ignore?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Just worry about inconveniences while mountain climbing Q-Ball and your Irony will shower us all with enlightenment.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 9, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Anyone who thinks the civil war was about freeing black people from slavery is naive. That just isn't the way the world works, and especially isnt how america works

x30

Of course that's what we learned in "school", and few people have the capacity for critical thinking. Instead they want to send people to hospitals for flying a flag. Which is why the real enemies of this country will never be removed.

Same as it ever was...
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
I wonder if those flying this antiquated flag of a defunct and foreign nation would object to the Mexican flag. Not only is that flag still viable, they too held a large portion of this nation. Their culture and heritage is interwoven with ours. Viva Mexico!

I wonder what the difference between a Union Jack on a Mini Cooper and a Mexican flag on a low rider might be?
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
I'm down in Alabama. I grew up with the confedeate flag. I never associated it with racism, but I am very aware that that is what it became. That pisses me off because to me it represented the right to fight for the right to be southern. If I have to explain that you will never understand.

I had a grandfather in the clan. I never agreed with him.

I never saw overt racisim until I visited Boston in 1979. Then I saw white people heckling a black man. I was appaled that that could happen in america.

Maybee that is why it took me so long to realize the flag stood for racisim to so many people. I quit displaying it when I found out. It was never a legal flag anyway.

Thanks for letting me vent my southern spleen.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
In short, everyone is entitled to an opinion (silly constitution stuff). But why are many adamant at my right to free speech. Just as you are proud to be from California, I am proud to be from the Southern US. I am sorry that bothers you. My White, Black, and Native American friends are not butt hurt by a flag that does not affect them.

We all have equality to live and pursue our life. THE CIVIL WAR IS OVER!
Matt Thomsen

Big Wall climber
Places
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
To all the haters... Come to the dirty south and check it out in person. You will meet some of the nices people you will find anywhere, and they may be flying the flag. They are proud people, and the rebel flag is a symbol of the south. As a northern moving to the south, it took me awhile to get use to it. I even had arguments with friends about how wrong ithe flag was, but I slowly learned that it NOW, has nothing (with a few exceptions) to do with hate.

So don't live in the past. Let's move on. I don't think any body on this site has ever owned a slave, and I don't think anybody thinks it was right.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:38pm PT

x30

Of course that's what we learned in "school", and few people have the capacity for critical thinking. Instead they want to send people to hospitals for flying a flag. Which is why the real enemies of this country will never be removed.

Same as it ever was...

Another stupid, neo-confederate fook..


Jeezus christ, learn some history. It started because places like South Carolina were scared shitless that Lincoln would free their slaves (even though he did NOT support such a thing when initially in office). So rather than wait until what they believed would be inevitible emancipation, they bailed.

And yes, that stoopid loser flag has a very dubious history. Most present-day waivers are simply ignorant rednecks who probably don't give it much thought, not worth an ass-kicking . But it was revived as a symbol in the south in the 60s to protest what they viewed as renewed federal encroachment on what they believed was their God-given right to lynch niggers.

It's a stupid, ignorant, divisive symbol. I'd like to piss on every one in existence.
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
the talking part is done
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
Dirtbag- I feel sorry you feel so hopeless and incomplete. I hope that you will someday find peace and happiness living in the most fortunate land ever!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Dirtbag- I feel sorry you feel so hopeless and incomplete. I hope that you will someday find peace and happiness living in the most fortunate land ever!

Yes Q-idiot, I am happy to live in the most fortunate land ever, the land that stomped the sh#t out of the Confederacy.

Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Dirtbag; are you mad that we are still the same country. If you feel the south is so bad, why try and keep it?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Hey Q-uidiot, where have I dissed the south?

Show me.

All I have done is dissed that stupid, backwards ass confederate flag.
Nemesis

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:04pm PT


Okay big mouth, show me what you've got!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
Norton,, in 2013,,,this flag stands for independence and pride in the South. And they have just as much reason for pride as any other state in the union. I know many southerners and they are absolutely awesome folks.

If you want to be stuck in the 1800s i guess thats up to you. Next time you see a biker on the road sporting a rebel decal,, be sure to pull up next to him and give him yur mind..
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Dirtbag- I never intended any kick on the face. Sorry for the misunderstanding. How has the Confederate flag hurt anyone? Simple question.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Why does the color of ones skin move you? I only see capability for the job.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
not who decides whoms allowed training eh?
VERY white of you...




How Black People See White Culture - Darkest Austria


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8--cZEq-vwU&feature=player_embedded
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Simple, I don't see color. Why do you factor that in?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
becuse not seeing color is just an excuse the dishonest use to hide their taste for blood

your read this before?


White Whine: Reflections on the Brain-Rotting Properties of Privilege


To truly understand a nation, a culture, or its people, it helps to know what they take for granted. After all, sometimes the things that go unspoken are more powerful than the spoken word, if for no other reason than the tendency of unspoken assumptions to reinforce core ways of thinking, feeling and acting, without ever having to be verbalized (and thus subjected to challenge) at all.

What’s more, when people take certain things for granted, anything that goes against the grain of what they perceive as “normal” will tend to stand out like a sore thumb, and invite a hostility that seems reasonable, at least to those dispensing it, precisely because their unspoken assumptions have gone uninterrogated for so long.


Thus, every February I encounter people who are apoplectic at the thought of Black History Month, and who insist with no sense of irony or misgiving that there should be no such thing, since, after all, there is no White History Month: a position to which they can only adhere because they have taken for granted that “American history” as told to them previously was comprehensive and accurate, as opposed to being largely the particular history of the dominant group. In other words, the normalcy of the white narrative, which has rendered every month since they popped out of their momma’s wombs White History Month, escapes them, and makes the efforts of multiculturalists seem to be the unique break with an otherwise neutral color-blindness.

Sorta’ like those who e-mail me on a semi-regular basis to insist, as if they have just stumbled upon something of unparalleled profundity, that there should be an Ivory Magazine to balance out Ebony, or that we need a White Entertainment Television network to balance out BET, or a NAAWP to balance out the NAACP. Again, these dear souls ignore what is obvious to virtually all persons of color but which remains unseen by those whose reality gets to be viewed as the norm: namely, that there are already two Ivory Magazines: Vogue and Cosmopolitan; that there are several WETs, which just so happen to go by the names of CBS, NBC and ABC; and that the Fortune 500, U.S. Congress and Fraternal Orders of Police are all doing a pretty good job holding it down for us white folks on the organizational front. Just because the norm is not racially-named, doesn’t mean it isn’t racialized.

Likewise, the ongoing backlash against affirmative action, by those who seem to believe that opportunity would truly be equal in the absence of these presumably unjust efforts to ensure access to jobs and higher education for persons of color. We are to believe that things were just fine before affirmative action, and that were such efforts abolished now, we could return to this utopic state of affairs: to hell with the persistent evidence that people of color continue to face discrimination in employment, housing, education and all other institutional settings in the U.S.

So if the University of Michigan gives applicants of color twenty points on a 150-point admission scale, so as to promote racial diversity and balance out the disadvantages to which such students are often subjected in their K-12 schooling experience, that is seen as unfair racial preference. But when the same school gives out 16 points to kids from the lily-white Upper Peninsula, or four points for children of overwhelmingly white alumni, or ten points for students who went to the state’s “top” schools (who will be mostly white to be sure), or 8 points for those who took a full slate of Advanced Placement classes in high schools (which classes are far less available in schools serving students of color), this is seen as perfectly fair, and not at all racially preferential.

What’s more, the whites who received all those bonus points due to their racial and class position will not be thought of by anyone as having received unearned advantages, in spite of the almost entirely ascriptive nature of the categories into which they fell that qualified them for such bonuses. No matter their “qualifications,” it will be taken for granted that any white student at a college or University belongs there.

This is why Jennifer Gratz, the lead plaintiff in the successful “reverse discrimination” suit against Michigan’s undergraduate affirmative action policy, found it a supreme injustice that a few dozen black, Latino and American Indian students were admitted ahead of her, despite having lower SATs and grades; but she thought nothing of the fact that more than 1400 other white students also were admitted ahead of her and her co-plaintiffs, despite having lower scores and grades. “Lesser qualified” whites are acceptable, while “lesser qualified” people of color must be eliminated from their unearned perches of opportunity. This is the kind of racist logic that people like Gratz, who now heads up the state’s anti-affirmative action initiative with the financial backing of Ward Connerly, find acceptable.

This kind of logic also explains the effort of whites at Roger Williams University to start a “white scholarship fund,” on the pretense that scholarships for students of color are unfair and place whites at a disadvantage. This, despite the unmentioned fact that about 93 percent of all college scholarship money goes to whites; despite the fact that students of color at elite and expensive colleges come from families with about half the average income of whites; despite the fact that there are scholarships for pretty much every kind of student under the sun, including children of Tupperware dealers, kids whose parents raise horses, kids who are left-handed, kids whose families descend from the founding fathers: you name it, and there’s money available for it.

While there are plenty of whites unable to afford college, the fault for this unhappy reality lies not with minority scholarships, but rather with the decisions of almost exclusively white University elites who have raised the price of higher education into the stratosphere, to the detriment of most everyone. But to place blame where it really belongs, on rich white people, would be illogical. After all, we take it for granted that one day we too might be wealthy, and we wouldn’t want others to question our decisions and prerogatives come that day either.

Better to blame the dark-skinned for our hardship, since we can take it for granted that they’re powerless to do a damned thing about it.

Whites, as it turns out, take most everything for granted in this country; which makes perfect sense, because dominant groups usually have that privilege. We take for granted that we won’t be racially profiled even when members of our group engage in criminality at a disproportionate rate, whether the crime is corporate fraud, serial killing, child molestation, abortion clinic bombings or drunk driving. And indeed we won’t be.

We take it for granted that our terrorism won’t result in whites as a group being viewed with generalized suspicion. So Tim McVeigh represents only Tim McVeigh, while Mohammed Atta gets to serve as a proxy for every other person who either has his name or follows a prophet of that name.

We take it for granted that our dishonesty will be viewed in purely individualistic terms, while the dishonesty of others will result in aspersions being cast upon the entire group from which they come. Thus, Jayson Blair’s deceptions at the New York Times provoke howls of indignation at any effort to provide opportunity to journalists of color — because after all, diversity and quality are proven by this one man’s exploits to be incompatible — but Jack Kelley’s equally egregious fabrications and fraud at USA Today fails to prompt calls for an end to hiring white guys as reporters, or for scrutinizing them more carefully, or for closing down whatever avenues of opportunity have helped keep the profession so white for so long.

We take it for granted that we will never be viewed as one of those dreaded “special interest” groups, precisely because whatever serves our interests is presumed universal. So, for example, while politicians who pursue the support of black, Latino, gay or other “minority” voters are said to be pandering to special interests, those who bend over backwards to secure the backing of NASCAR dads and soccer moms, whose racial composition is as self-evident as it is unmentioned, are said to be politically savvy and merely trying to connect with “normal folks.”

We take it for granted that “classical music” is a perfectly legitimate term for what really amounts to one particular classical form (mostly European orchestral and piano concerto music), ignoring that there are, indeed, classical forms of all musical styles, as well as their more contemporary versions.

We take it for granted that the only controversy regarding Jesus is whether or not he was killed by Jews or Romans; or whether the depiction of his execution by Mel Gibson is too violent for children, all the while ignoring a much larger issue, which is why does Gibson (and for that matter every other white filmmaker or artist in the history of the faith) feel the need to make Jesus white: something he surely could not have been and was not, with all due apology to Michelangelo, Constantine, Pat Robertson, and the producers of “Jesus Christ Superstar.”

That the only physical descriptions of Jesus in the Bible indicate that he had feet the color of burnt brass, skin the color of jasper stones, and hair like wool, poses a slight problem for Gibson and other followers of the white Jesus hanging in their churches, adorning their crucifixes (if Catholic), and gracing the Christmas cards they send each December.

It is the same problem posed by the anthropological evidence concerning the physical appearance of first century Jews from the so-called Middle East. Namely, Jesus did not look like a long-haired version of my Ashkenazi Jewish, Eastern European great-grandfather in his prime. But to even bring this up is to send most white Christians (and sadly, even many of color) into fits, replete with assurances that “it doesn’t matter what Jesus looked like, it only matters what he did.”

Which is all fine and good, until you realize that indeed it must matter to them what Jesus looked like; otherwise, they wouldn’t be so averse to presenting him as the man of color he most assuredly was: a man dark enough to guarantee that were he to come back tomorrow, and find himself on the wrong side of New York City at the wrong time of night, reaching for his keys or his wallet in the presence of the Street Crimes Unit, he’d be dispatched far more expeditiously than was done at Golgotha 2000 years ago.

But never fear, we needn’t grapple with that because we can merely take it for granted that Jesus had to look like us, as did Adam and Eve, and as does God himself. And indeed, most whites apparently believe this to be true, as suggested by the images found in most every picture Bible for kids made by a white person, all of which present these figures in such a way. A good example is the classic and widely distributed Robert Maxwell Bible Series for children, popularly known as the “blue books” that are found in virtually every pediatrician and OBGYN’s office in the U.S. In Volume I, readers learn (at least visually speaking) that the Garden of Eden was in Oslo: a little-known fact that will stun Biblical scholars to be sure.

It would all be quite funny were it not so incontestably insane, so pathological in terms of the scope of our nuttiness. What else, after all, can explain the fact that when a New Jersey theatre company put on a passion play a few years ago with a black actor in the lead role, they received hundreds of hateful phone calls and even death threats for daring to portray Jesus as anyone darker than, say, Shaun Cassidy?

What else but a tenuous (at best) grip on reality can explain the quickness with which white Americans ran around after 9/11 saying things like, “Now we know what it means to be attacked for who we are?” Now we know? Hell, some folks always knew what that was like, though their pain and suffering never counted for much in the eyes of the majority.

What else but delusion on a scale necessitating medication could lead one to say — as I saw two thirty-something whites do in the wake of the OJ Simpson “not guilty” verdict — that they now realized everything they had been told about the American justice system being fair was a lie? Now they realized it! See the theme here?

That’s what privilege is, for all those who constantly ask me what I mean when I speak of white privilege. It’s the ability to presume that your reality is the reality; that your experiences, if white, are universal, and not particular to your racial identity. It’s the ability to assume that you belong and that others will presume that too; the ability to define reality for others, and expect that definition to stick (because you have the power to ensure that it becomes the dominant narrative). And it’s the ability to ignore all evidence to the contrary, claim that you yourself are the victim, and get everyone from the President to the Supreme Court to the average white guy on the street to believe it.

It is Times New Roman font, one inch margins, left hand justified. In other words, it is the default position on the computer of American life. And it has rendered vast numbers of its recipients utterly incapable of critical thought.

Only by rebelling against it, and insisting on our own freedom from the mental straightjacket into which we have been placed as whites by this system, can we hope to regain our full humanity, and be of any use as allies to people of color in their struggle against racism

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
ElcapPics said

Posting nearly anything on the taco seems to bring out the haters and name callers... another reason that I don't often post here... it is impossible to have a civil discussion between people with different positions on ANY issue. Over simplification and slander is mostly what we get here.... sad really..."What we have here is a failure to communicate"!

No doubt. And that is unfortunate since this is a meaty and complex subject. I liked your post about it. I can also understand those who feel it is a racist symbol. The history and different perspectives are fascinating. Possibly even important.
Deekaid

climber
Nov 9, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
rsin=rokjox?
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 9, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
R-sin , Are you angry about America? Or is it Black people that make you mad? Do you wish we all were the same color? I love everyone and get confused why people care about skin color.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 9, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
this flag stands for independence and pride in the South.

Independence? Are you sure? Cuz it doesn't seem like they really won their independence... or anything really. How can you celebrate something you never had? Seems to me they just got a bunch of innocent poor people killed in an attempt to maintain a privileged lifestyle for a few... a lifestyle made possible ONLY through the labor of slaves. It was a failed rebellion, a failed attempt to maintain inequality, a failed attempt to continue living off the sweat of others. It is sad that so many continue to defend and broadcast the echos of their tantrum.

Nah, probably way more idealistic and pure... something to do with the founding father's vision... blah blah blah... [insert]patriotic hard-on jizz-fest.[/insert]
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 9, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
its just comical that you refuse to acknowledge how much welfare one has had to be the recipant of to be "ready" for a job and that the poor are systimatically denied it
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Nov 10, 2013 - 12:05am PT

R-sin , Are you angry about America? Or is it Black people that make you mad? Do you wish we all were the same color? I love everyone and get confused why people care about skin color What is your beef?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 10, 2013 - 12:18am PT
heh

lazy minds q-ball. thats all
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 10, 2013 - 02:38am PT
The red, white, and blue stands for pride in the south and everywhere else in this nation, thanks.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Nov 10, 2013 - 04:01am PT
Lynyrd Skynyrd and Nascar forever,

now chew tobaca chew tobaca chew tobaca....spit!

ricky bobby, pass the ice tea and chicken wings,

honey, can you get jimmy bob jr out of the tire swing,

dang, i feel like makin some sheeple,
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:23am PT
Q-Ball queried
Slavery is illegal in America. What is your point that people are still enslaved here?


Here let me Google that for you since I know how hard it is to find information in the 21st century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_United_States

Human trafficking is the modern form of slavery, with illegal smuggling and trading of people, for forced labour or sexual exploitation.

In the U.S., human trafficking tends to occur around international travel-hubs with large immigrant populations, notably California and Texas. The U.S. Justice Department estimates that 17,500 people are trafficked into the country every year, but the true figure could be higher, because of the large numbers of undocumented immigrants. About 300,000 children are believed to be currently at risk from sexual exploitation.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/human_trafficking
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/05/sex-trafficking-201105
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/03/super-bowl-sex-trafficking_n_2607871.html


But please, get back to your original point about how Africans selling other Africans into slavery makes flying the Confederate flag a totally not racially insensitive thing to do.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:36am PT
Because in the part of the United States still governed by the US Constitution it took a Constitutional amendment, The Emancipation Proclamation committed the north to abolishing slavery but did not actually abolish it in and of itself.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Nov 10, 2013 - 06:43am PT
The OP might want to read a few books rather than getting their history from movies...

That being said I am Damn Yankee and don't have much use fer them secessionists;)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 10, 2013 - 06:56am PT
Likewise Tradman.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Nov 10, 2013 - 09:42am PT
Here is the authentic MODERN Confederate thought process from a real Southern Reb....

http://vimeo.com/17126975
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Nov 10, 2013 - 10:27am PT
"That being said I am Damn Yankee and don't have much use fer them secessionists;)"

http://www.ditext.com/dilorenzo/yankee.html

The link above says y'all started it!
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 10, 2013 - 10:54am PT
Is the anti-South, anti-Confederate flag bigotry shown in this thread really that different from the racism of past generations?

Burchy started out talking about a free trip to the hospital and knocking out teeth. Many of like-minded posters have shown similar intolerance and hostility to those with different perspectives. And like many racists, they feel completely justified in their position.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 10, 2013 - 10:58am PT


You all know that Burch is sittin' back laughing at you guys all screeching at each other! LOL

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Is the anti-South, anti-Confederate flag bigotry shown in this thread really that different from the racism of past generations?

You have got to be fuking kidding me? You really are THAT stupid, aren't you? Because the flag you CHOOSE to put on the back of your truck is really just like the color of skin you CHOOSE to be born with... and enslaved because of.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:14am PT
Viva Mexico! The real south!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:15am PT
Viva la Raza!
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:17am PT
You have got to be fuking kidding me? You really are THAT stupid, aren't you? Because the flag you CHOOSE to put on the back of your truck is really just like the color of skin you CHOOSE to be born with... and enslaved because of.

And the hits just keep on coming!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:22am PT
sketch rivals skipt as the dumbest mother fuker ever to walk the planet.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:23am PT


Nov 10, 2013 - 07:54am PT
Is the anti-South, anti-Confederate flag bigotry shown in this thread really that different from the racism of past generations?


Are you serious.?

Oh yeah..... It's sketchy. One can never tell.

Anyway sketch, could the same question be asked about neo nazis and their swastikas?

I don,t doubt for a second that southerner s have much to be proud of as much as anybody, but I,d say the confederate flag and and what it stands for is a pretty stupid symbol to chose to represent your values..... Unless your values suck
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:30am PT
He has waged cruel War against human Nature itself, violating its most sacred Rights of Life and Liberty in the Persons of a distant People who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into Slavery in another Hemisphere, or to incur miserable Death, in their Transportation thither. This piratical Warfare, the opprobrium of infidel Powers, is the Warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain.

He has prostituted his Negative for Suppressing every legislative Attempt to prohibit or to restrain an execrable Commerce, determined to keep open a Market where Men should be bought and sold, and that this assemblage of Horrors might want no Fact of distinguished Die.

He is now exciting those very People to rise in Arms among us, and to purchase their Liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the People upon whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off, former Crimes committed against the Liberties of one People, with Crimes which he urges them to commit against the Lives of another.

Jefferson included this paragraph in the draft of the Declaration of Independence. It made it through committee and was included in the draft presented for vote.

The entire paragraph was removed at the insistence of Southern delegates who saw it as setting a dangerous legal precedent for freeing the slaves.
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 10, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Sketch! You're right- I guess I am as f*#ked up as a few other posters in getting my facts right. It isn't South Carolina's flag, it is Mississippi's
I think about 10 years ago there was some hoopla about questioning integrating the confederate/rebel design into the state flag. From Wyoming- the south looks pretty much the same-I remembered it wrong. At that time, I ran across a seated liberty dime from 1863, so I looked up the events of that year and came across the death toll in the battles fought then. It blew my mind- the numbers (Vietnam-50K, Korea-50K Gettysburg-53K in 3 days!!) so I concluded then that the north won the war- TAKE IT DOWN. Sketch- glad you didn't nail me on 28K and 23K not adding up to 53K-I did round the numbers down.
Thanks for the correction- there is already too much BS in the world. I don't need to add to it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Randisi challenged
Please cite the section where it commits the north to abolition.


Some 4 million slaves were freed in the Confederate states alone by the time the war was over. Do you honestly think that making a moral argument for full commitment to defeating the Confederacy and then allowing slavery to continue in the northern states was an option?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 10, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Countries involved in the old slave trades: Mexico, Britain , Spain, Portugal, USA, Nigeria, other African countries as well as other European countries.. Most active these days in the Slave trade is MEXICO...The cartels use them for picking poppys, making coke, meth and other drugs as well as sex trafficking. This isnt from the long past but is going on today. So for some of you screeching LaRaza, you just gave a thumbs up to modern slavery.. Gonna hate on the Mexican flag now??

Out of ALL the Slaves distributed around the world in colonial times,, the USA got ONLY 4.4% of all slave traffic..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 10, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
So for some of you screeching LaRaza, you just gave a thumbs up to modern slavery..

You are as ignorant as they come. You know NOTHING of La Raza.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 10, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
Bet 5K i know a shyt load more than YOU wessie..


And Nigeria is still #1 in the SLAVE selling in 2013.


And research how Afro-Mexicans are treated TODAY in Mexico - places like Veracruz or Yanga.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 10, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
You don't know sh#t. Viva la Raza!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Ron declared
Out of ALL the Slaves distributed around the world in colonial times,, the USA got ONLY 4.4% of all slave traffic..

Based on what time period and what are you sourcing here? Slavery has existed since well before biblical times. Slavery still exists. So 4.4% of all slave ownership of all time was in the US? In the 17th to 19th centuries? Of Africans only? What the hell is that number?

Let's assume that the number is something approaching a real number just for argument. In 1860 the US population was 31.4 million but 3.9 million were slaves. That leaves 27.5 million "free" people. The global population is estimated to be 1.27 billion people in 1860 so the US, minus the slaves, represented 2.17% of global population. So basically you're saying that the US was twice as active in slave ownership as the global mean.

Now of course all this number crunching is specious because all this "Africans sold slaves" and "the US was only 4.4% of global slave trade" adds up to a bunch of slavery apologist insanity because you guys don't dare actually admit to the United States having done some Bad Things That Deserve Criticism unless it's something horrific like try to make sure that its citizens can get affordable healthcare.

tl;dr stop trying to excuse American slavery.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 10, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Anybody mention "white slavery"?

It is redundant, since the word slave comes from the Slavs, eastern european caucasian people who were captured by moslem raiders from the Ottoman Empire.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
The Moslem slave trade depopulated the Mediterranean coasts of Spain France and Italy for more than 400 years with slave raiding parties extending all the way to Iceland and Norway.

Somewhere between one and two million Europeans ended up as slaves. The Arabs had no use for field hands and females ended up as concubines or household help, males castrated (with about a 90% fatality rate)or condemned to the salt mines.

It didn't stop until the Marines went to Tripoli.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
Viva la raza! Mexico shall rise again!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
When was it ever "up"?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Queso fresco?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
As long as it wasn't made in someone's bathtub.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 10, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
"when was it ever 'up'?"

i take it you dont count beating the west by centuries to wholesome diets, bathing and not being afraid to drink water as notable accomplishments???
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Mexico started importing tallow and lard in the 1870's as soon as it was inexpensively available.

not much of a "healthy" diet.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 10, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
FACT: Frijoles negros y arroz, cabron!

Viva la raza!
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 10, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
"Mexico started importing tallow and lard in the 1870's as soon as it was inexpensively available."

ah yes lets see... this ways how many centuries after "white" euros decimated their CIVILIZATION and raped them into subservience while selling their infants by the lb. to feed their dogs?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 10, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
So let me see if I get this right according to some of the big brains on here...

All those flying a confederate flags are probably pro-slavery and at the very least are practicing racists.

Ergo, said flag owners should be beaten/hospitalized.

Those sure are some deep thoughts.

I wonder if the Lakota in SD enjoy seeing a certain other flag everywhere around their home.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 10, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Estupido!
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 10, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
youve got that wrong fear,

they are mostly ignorant asses or blithering idiots to dishonest to know what their doing; which is lining up to support the people you describe AS IF its what a good decent person would do

they are the soaring heights of integrities lack AS nearly to the woman,
they refuse to learn anything; walking off singing that old islamofacist hymm


lalalalalalalalalalalalalala.......

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 10, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
If you want to be stuck in the 1800s i guess thats up to you.

well the last dire doom and gloom predictions said the arctic would b nothing but sand sun and beaches this year.. THIS YEAR.

Now they have rolled it forward to 2040.. Yet more out of their hineys guesstimates from models they FULLY ADMIT dont work..


One need only visit the climate change thread to see, indeed, Ron Anderson is playing catch-up from 200 years of science.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 10, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Viva la Raza, con cervezas por favor!

donchu know nothin? Civilization in North America didn't start until "civilized" Europeans got here. duh.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 10, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Hey GeeeDavis,, have you always been such a yapping lil leg humper?
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Nov 10, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
Probably the most interesting part of this whole thing, is that none of us can really understand what happened back then (unless the one black rock climber is lurking).

probably true about the not understanding; but i don't know how a present day black rock climber could make the subject more comprehensible.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 10, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
utter horseshit!

particularly concidering its the refuge of the scoundrals whom what to defer to the "theres nothing to learn here" ending
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:18am PT
You've got that wrong fear.

They are mostly ignorant asses or blithering idiots, too dishonest to know what they're doing.

Fixed it for you.

It's always amusing to see someone showing his own smarts, while attacking another's intelligence.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 11, 2013 - 09:00am PT
so they spared no welfare on your education...

funny how grammar nazi's are so proud of themselves for dodging
you must have alot of ribbons and boes
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 09:30am PT
so they spared no welfare on your education...

funny how grammar nazi's are so proud of themselves for dodging
you must have alot of ribbons and boes

Whoosh!
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Burchey....

If you are still planning on moving to Asheville NC, I suggest you best prepare yourself for one bigass rude awakening. That there REB flag will be a regular sight on many back windows of them old rusted Ford/Chevy pick em ups with the shotgun and/or 30/30 etc hanging on the inside around them neck of the woods.

Seriously.

Chief. You know...this is actually something I've been giving a lot of thought. My wife will be a mostly black woman, to add to that mix. Asheville itself is supposed to be a pretty hip town for the area, but that's all relative. We're going to visit there for a bit to feel it out first, but trust that this is on my mind.

Burch3y. . . with threads like this you have the audacity to say you're not a troll?

You are the definition of the word!

With all due respect, my understanding of a troll is someone who just says things for the reaction alone, just to get a rise out of people. Trolls are these fool avatars with 3 posts that are most likely a fake account of a known poster here that has no balls to say what they really think. I am sincere, don't hide behind an anonymous avatar, and appreciate the discussion. I also appreciate punching racists in the face. I was toughening my hands up in the cracks this weekend, nothing like a little Jtree granite to temper the hands.

And who is doling out these hospital trips, 'ol noodle-arm burch? Lol. Better pray the proud redneck didn't take High School Wrestling bub.

Lulzy.

You all know that Burch is sittin' back laughing at you guys all screeching at each other! LOL

I wish, I was actually climbing and didn't get to wince through this thread until this morning.

Some points I'd like make:

#1 I think I'll just scroll past Ron Anderson's posts from now on. I really feel bad saying anything to him. Before this thread, the depth of his stupidity never really registered. I wonder if he reads what he writes before clicking POST THIS REPLY?

#2 As much as I'd like to punch out every racist I meet, I know that isn't possible. Am I looking forward to doing my small part? You bet. Am I blown away by the ignorance on this thread? You bet, but I also know a lot of it are just morons trolling because they THINK they are clever. You aren't clever. Trust me.

#3 Santanas next to Nomads has some pretty good food.

#4 It's intellectually dishonest to state that slavery was an afterthought when it came to the civil war. Again, if you have 4 brain cells to rub together, and know how to use the internet, this is apparent. I'll assume that those of you posting otherwise are just trolling, or mentally retarded. Either way, responding to that is pretty pointless.

#5 Probably the most hilarious part of most of this, is that 98% of the nonsense posted here would not pass your lips, should we be sitting across from each other around a campfire. Guaranteed. You'd be just like the grown-men-maggots I had to tell to "shut their mouths" this weekend because they were drunk and giggly at 1230 at night in the next campsite. Not a peep after.

#6 Beyonce

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 11, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Burchey burchey burchey.. Your just one tough mudda eh..Telling old men the what for-- whilst removing every confederate flag in the country..

But,, without PICS ,,this thread is worthless. I want to see PROOF of your "good doings".. Got stars and bars do ya? Huh??? No!?? Wha???
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 11, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
#3 Santanas next to Nomads has some pretty good food.

Damn straight.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 11, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
I don't understand what you redneck defenders of slavery have against this one, especially on vet's day:




You can't really advocate flying the confederate flag without at least implicitly renouncing ol'glory... unless you are a fuking moran... oh, I see... carry on.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
I did a little research into the so called "confederate flag" and the topic of what motivated the southern soldiers to join the fight. There is a lot of information out there thus it was a pretty easy topic to research and those you interested in a less emotional treatment, than that displayed on ST, might take a moment to read what the West Virginia Historical Society had to say on the matter... surely better than all the slander and hate being spread back and forth so casually on this thread. It is of historical and not modern context. Don't dismay... it only takes a couple of minutes to read.

http://www.wvculture.org/history/wvhs1404.html
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Nice Link Tom! Hopefully some here will read it..
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Much of this is based on ignorance. The girl with the Swastica tramp stamp almost certainly would feel differently if you took her back to Auswitz in a time machine and she got to talk to mothers and daughters as they were being fed into furnaces by big slavering Krauts with square jaws, clipboards and direct orders from the High Command.

Luckily, with a little compassion and understanding show them, many people can change, but not be being beaten down further. Most people championing an outlaw approach to life are so marginalized they have little more to hold onto than their resistance. Of course some of them are just plain bad sauce, but probably fewer than we might think.

But sh#t can get ugly out there, and little is uglier than racism and Confederate pride, avatars of American stupidity and backwardness, whereby ignorance and spiritual bankruptcy are held as virtues. Truly a Demonic inversion of reality.

JL
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
heh,

smack in between articles "coal dust is good for you" and "increase in girls wearing shoes corresponds with rise in birth defects"

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
"Spiritual bankruptcy are held as virtues "



That SHOULD BE a lyric in a kick ass song.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Hey, el cap pics,

Thanks for your posts. I appreciate the thought and the reasonable tone.

Agree fully that most of the soldiers who were sent to kill each other had good intentions, on both sides.

The Confederate Flag?

More background info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Wikipedia claims that the classic, modern Confederate flag was not used much during the war years, except in battle. And limited usage for a long time after.

Wikipedia states it reappeared, in a big way, in 1956, and became used (or misused?) as a potent symbol representing the fight against desegregation in public schools. And, in the years to come, against the entire Civil Rights movement.

That was perhaps a turning point; what was once (and still is, in many minds) a more innocent, generic symbol of defiance against yankee (or any other) imperialism and over-reach became, in many other minds, a symbol associated with racism and segregation.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 11, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
"coal dust is good for you"

Well, sh#t-damn! If that's the case I'm going to start freebasing gasoline, since it is a more refined product anyhows.


"increase in girls wearing shoes corresponds with rise in birth defects"

That's why I keep all of mine barefoot.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 11, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
theres books full of them ron,
they call em hymns
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 11, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Viva el Largo!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 11, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
How has the Confederate flag hurt anyone?

Hmmm...

The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, by six veterans of the Confederate Army.

Founded of course, to promote freedom and southern hospitality.


Nope, can't see how anyone would equate the Confederate flag with any sort of harm.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Asheville, NC, is a slice of heaven and can out-Berkeley most places.
There's so many Russians there they've three grocery stores!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Largo posted
Luckily, with a little compassion and understanding show them, many people can change, but not be being beaten down further. Most people championing an outlaw approach to life are so marginalized they have little more to hold onto than their resistance. Of course some of them are just plain bad sauce, but probably fewer than we might think.

Listen people, ok? This man knows a little something about cutting black some slack.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 11, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
I had a mohawk and wore a jacket with an anarchy symbol on it when I was 13. I had no idea what those symbols conveyed to others... it was just associated with the scene that got me amped up to sk8 (D.O.A., T.S.O.L., D.K., half-pipes, skirts, and road rash).

Once I learned what that big A stood for and I couldn't change the meaning of it just by wishful thinking, I disassociated myself from it. I find it really sad that some of you "adults" are dumber than I was at 13 and insist on trying to twist the clear meaning behind the symbols you promote.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Nov 11, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Clearly a lot of strong opinions on the subject. I don't have much respect for the stars and bars, but fall short of thinking that assault is going to solve anything. I don't care who you are, there is always someone bigger and meaner, and just punching someone out does nothing to promote the validity of your argument.

The real reason I'm posting is to share a link to a story I heard on Snap Judgement the other day. Daryl Davis is a black piano player, and his story of befriending and changing klansmen is just flat out stunning. It's worth taking the 20 minutes to listen to his powerful story. It's on this page, the story called "silver dollar lounge" http://snapjudgment.org/unrequited
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 11, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Off White, nice story.

The first part reminds me of my ultra-white, racists aunt... I was playing Bob Marley, "I Shot the Sheriff."

She said... "this is interesting, but I like the original version better."

"Original version?"

"Ya, Eric Clapton's original."

She refused to believe a black man was the author of a song she liked. I gave up after 5 min.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Sounds like your aunt mistakenly thought the more popular, more well-known version was the original.

How does that reflect poorly on her?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Sketch.

Dumbest man alive?

Or all-time best troll of all-time?
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
.because Wes spent five minutes telling her otherwise and she still could not get it?

Oh?

Okay.

I missed where he explained that part of the story.

My mistake.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Sketch.

Dumbest man alive?

Or all-time best troll of all-time?

Care to have an honest discussion?

Or are you just interested in whining about how a Civil War era film makes you so mad that you have to start thread on it, complete with itg threats?

Maybe you just need a good cry.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Care to have an honest discussion?

Or are you just interested in whining about how a Civil War era film makes you so mad that you have to start thread on it, complete with itg threats?

Maybe you just need a good cry.

Inconclusive evidence to make a decision on the Dumb/Troll thing.

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Inconclusive evidence to make a decision on the Dumb/Troll thing.

No interest in an honest discussion?

What are you afraid of?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Dumb it is.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
[/url]
GLillegard

Social climber
Oregon
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Actually Sketch you didn't miss the 5 min conversation with the Aunt, as that was added after first posted. It is challenging to follow conversations when an individual edits their post without notation. Common for the Drchrist/Mechrist/Weschrist persona.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Some of you probably think the word COONASS is racist too...
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Or niggardly.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:23pm PT

Some of you probably think the word COONASS is racist too...


Sometimes slander is just easier. RACIST!!!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 11, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
I know me sumder coonass downlong da Turner bayou-mannnndo dey cook em crawfeesh witda spicies mannnnnnn be sum good stff mannnn i tell you..Sooooohot yu be breakin a sweat notime mannoooomann..


Yes,, i speak coonass. Great folk actually. Even if they do consider nutria a meal..
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
its shame to see a racism report with no detail
so what was climbing (grade)
how far was he out from belay
how many pros were used
was this a sport or trad
what was the belay device( atc, GG etc)
type of rope/age/size
your/his climbing experience level

along with bunch of other stuff
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Ron said
Some of you probably think the word COONASS is racist too...


Words aren't racist. People that try to make excuses for American slavery are.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Actually Sketch you didn't miss the 5 min conversation with the Aunt, as that was added after first posted. It is challenging to follow conversations when an individual edits their post without notation. Common for the Drchrist/Mechrist/Weschrist persona.

Thanks for the clarification.

I wouldn't expect mechrist to offer that information.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
I am surprised at you Largo... Normally you offer some kind of persuasion and logic, presented in a civil tone, to lead others to a better understanding of your views so they can be considered in a more serious way. It seems you have fallen into the irrational slander, name calling and ugliness that seems to pervade this thread... how does it feel down there in the mud Bro? An argument is never convincing that relies of such tactics. None of you, including the original poster of the thread, who have resorted to such tactics, have convinced anyone, except yourselves.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
Words aren't racist. People that try to make excuses for American slavery are.

No, you just want to find racism everywhere! You cannot debate conservatism without calling people racists! That is your only card. Welcome to Jesse and Al Sharpton's playbook.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT

I am surprised at you Largo... Normally you offer some kind of persuasion and logic, presented in a civil tone, to lead others to a better understanding of your views so they can be considered in a more serious way. It seems you have fallen into the irrational slander, name calling and ugliness that seems to pervade this thread... how does it feel down there in the mud Bro? An argument is never convincing that relies of such tactics. None of you, including the original poster of the thread, who have resorted to such tactics, have convinced anyone, except yourselves.


Put down the Malt Bevs, brah, Largo is not involved here. But maybe he should be...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
No, you just want to find racism everywhere! You cannot debate conservatism without calling people racists! That is your only card. Welcome to Jesse and Al Sharpton's playbook.


It's true! I've called you a racist in literally every post I've ever posted on this site! Especially in the ones where you're a huge racist. Funny thing about apologizing for slavery is you'll get called a racist a lot. I know it's hard but you have to stand by your convictions, bluering. Even if you're persecuted. Just keep your head up and some day, down the road, you'll be hailed as true believer by some other people who also think it's ok that America enslaved people.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Here is a link with a photo and explanation .... the first national flag of the confederacy... it only takes 5 seconds to see it... don't be so lazy!! It is an interesting read too... lots of flags were involved... seems it was not an easy deal at all.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/1national.htm

Go back a couple of pages Bluering... that is Largo posting ... no?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
An argument is never convincing that relies of such tactics. None of you, including the original poster of the thread, who have resorted to such tactics, have convinced anyone, except yourselves.

Name calling is pointless. Words do not hurt.

In addition, racism is such a deep-seated part the psyche of so many, ingrained in them by nature, nurtured by their "nurturers" either purposefully, or indirectly by neglect. I feel there are groups of people that are beyond help - this applies to a variety of afflictions, ranging from this particular topic, to extreme cases of drug addiction, to child molesters, etc. I'm not putting these all on the same level, but they are alike in ways.

If you are honest about it, truly honest, you have to admit that racism is baseless, pointless, harmful, and in need of termination.

We use violence as a means to several ends. We go to war. A policeman uses a baton on a criminal that resists arrest. Etc Etc.

Why is it different?..instead of mealy-mouthing like a bunch of pansies, we strike down overt racism as we encounter it. Of course, I know this isn't "legal". That doesn't mean it isn't just.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
Sounds like your aunt mistakenly thought the more popular, more well-known version was the original.

Wow, your experience with the real world is THAT small and narrow, isn't it?
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
The real reason I'm posting is to share a link to a story I heard on Snap Judgement the other day. Daryl Davis is a black piano player, and his story of befriending and changing klansmen is just flat out stunning. It's worth taking the 20 minutes to listen to his powerful story. It's on this page, the story called "silver dollar lounge" http://snapjudgment.org/unrequited

Great story. I wonder how many people listened to Darrell Davis's story. It's interesting to contrast his approach, dealing with card carrying klansmen, to the inflammatory rhetoric of this thread.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
good point Bruch3y (whoever you are in reality) but you left out one group in your listing above... People who think that violence is the way to settle differences.. like wife beaters, bullies, dictatorships, military oriented nations who abuse their power, ... you know... "Mealy mouthing punch of pansies"... Very scholarly, surely an effective phrase in making a convincing argument.

I am particularly offended by religious icons, placed on government land, supposedly owned by all citizens, no matter their faith, by those of a particular faith, who feel that they have the right to do so. That said, I don't have the slightest intention of tearing the icons down and beating up a few members of that religious group. We have laws and courts to settle such differences of opinion.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
We use violence as a means to several ends. We go to war. A policeman uses a baton on a criminal that resists arrest. Etc Etc.

Why is it different?..instead of mealy-mouthing like a bunch of pansies, we strike down overt racism as we encounter it. Of course, I know this isn't "legal". That doesn't mean it isn't just.

Sounds a lot like that rationale and tactics of Jim Crow era racists.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
good point Burch3y (whoever you are in reality) but you left out one group in your listing above... People who think that violence is the way to settle differences.. like wife beaters, bullies, dictatorships, military oriented nations who abuse their power, ... you know...

And the Nazis. I think they were big on using violence against those they disliked.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
good point Burch3y (whoever you are in reality) but you left out one group in your listing above... People who think that violence is the way to settle differences.. like wife beaters, bullies, dictatorships, military oriented nations who abuse their power, ... you know...

Terrible point. Use more ... next time when you think you're being clever, maybe it will help.

Your examples are not people who think violence is a way to settle differences, they are people who use violence from a position of power over someone else to get what they want.

In fact, I'm not even proposing using violence to settle differences.

I'm proposing using it to create an environment of fear in order to fight against ideas or behaviors we've deemed (by law) to be out of line.

We should be afraid to be racist. We should be afraid to mistreat others. We should be afraid to step on a bolt when nobody is looking.

There is no fear of consequence. That, in my opinion, is a problem.

EDIT: Sketch, you are rapidly approaching Ron Anderson status - i.e. not worth replying to. Congrats, you must dig deep.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
So Burch3y I gather that violence is ok if used in the manner you wish it to be used. Logic? Law? Where? Fortunately you are in a position, like the rest of us, of having no real power... all you have is your intellect to convince others of your view.... unfortunately you don't have convincing arguments and you resort to unlawful "solutions" and slander. Very convincing indeed.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
So Burch3y I gather that violence is ok if used in the manner you wish it to be used. Logic? Law? Where?

It's already used to enforce law, both domestic and international.

We have laws on the books making it illegal to discriminate based on race/religion/etc etc.

As it stands, spineless maggots hide behind "freedom of speech" when spouting such tenants - I simply suggest that they be afraid to do so.

If a bigot thought he might get clothes-lined by another restaurant patron, when he told a young couple and their beautiful mixed daughter that they were disgusting, he might think twice about it now.

It's simply an issue of the will of the majority cowering under a smaller hateful minority, unwilling to risk their own safety, or a lawsuit, or whatever to stand up for what is right.

Not the same thing, but related - my girl was walking in downtown San Diego, and a homeless man was shaking an older woman that walked near him by the shoulders and screaming at her. "Men" walked by in their suits and did nothing, and thankfully she was able to wrench away and escape - my girl stood there powerless to help (she's pretty small).

Spines? Overrated, I guess. By the nature of a lot of these posts, it would confirm that theory.

EDIT: spelling
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
EDIT: Sketch, you are rapidly approaching Ron Anderson status - i.e. not worth replying to. Congrats, you must dig deep.

I can see how you'd think Darrell Davis' story is out of your comfort zone.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
If a bigot thought he might get clothes-lined by another restaurant patron, when he told If a bigot thought he might get clothes-lined by another restaurant patron, when he told a young couple and their beautiful mixed daughter that they were disgusting, he might think twice about now.

It's simply an issue of the will of the majority cowering under a smaller hateful minority, unwilling to risk their own safety, or a lawsuit, or whatever to stand up for what is right.

Dude. You've got it wrong. Have you ever seen the TV show "What would you do?" They stage scenarios where a callous as#@&%e is abusing a stranger in a public setting. I've just seen a few segments, but every time bystanders step up and do the right thing. I tend to think it's representative of our society.

Do you have many firsthand experiences with overt racism? Have you witnessed someone telling a young couple and their beautiful mixed daughter that they were disgusting?
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
Bruch3y... you said "we have laws..." So in a society that is ruled by laws we should use those laws. Assault someone, as you suggest, and you will be just another felon sitting in jail.. I just have a hard time trying to label a guy with a confederate battle flag decal on the back window of his truck, as a racist. People have a right to put any sticker on their truck that they want... it is not for you or me to fix any particular motive to it... it is theirs' to own. As we have seen in many of these posts, that flag means different things to different people and to say it has only one meaning and that is the meaning you or I affix to it, will not get anything done.

As you suggest, we have plenty of racism in this country and it has been a long and difficult struggle to convince people that is not a good thing... some will never be convinced, as long as they don't act on it, we have to let it slide. The days of the slavery that some associate with that flag are long gone, and we should accept as fact, when people tell us that it doesn't mean slavery, racism and oppression to them, that they are truthful. Someone posting way above, mentioned the Pirate Flag being a hateful symbol of fear and death and now we think nothing of it and some people proudly call themselves "Pirates". So it goes... maybe in time, probably not in our lifetimes, the flag thing will be just another decal on a truck, as it is to many now. We sure are not going to convince people of anything by threats and name calling... that has only served, in the past, to harden minds and hearts... the exact opposite of what we wish to achieve.
Just another mealy-mouthed post from an old man.

Norton... sickening.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Norton - that's disgusting and sad.

One of them actually said to the waitress "too bad you aren't more white like that half nigger you voted for"? That's just disgusting.

Where were you? I understand if you'd rather not say.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Sometimes, a good ol' fashioned ass kicking isn't the worst.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Have you witnessed someone telling a young couple and their beautiful mixed daughter that they were disgusting?

My mom had her father tell her something along the lines of: 'if you ever marry a nigger I'll blow your head off to save your soul.' Yes, he displayed his confederate flag proudly on his truck.

My aunt refused to let her daughter live with her anymore because she got knocked up by a "nigger." 10-years later and they are on okay terms: my aunt loves her grandchildren and 'those people can be nice.'

But hey, what good is a symbol if we can't decide it has whatever meaning we want it to have?
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
I am surprised at you Largo... Normally you offer some kind of persuasion and logic, presented in a civil tone, to lead others to a better understanding of your views so they can be considered in a more serious way. It seems you have fallen into the irrational slander, name calling and ugliness that seems to pervade this thread... how does it feel down there in the mud Bro?
T/E

I have not said some things because, really, there is only so much it is useful to say. Maybe I need to say more. Two or three years ago John dealt with me saying, "You don't have any imagination." Well that's OK. He may be right.

Then we have a couple of years of Largo tying people in knots with arguments that the only thing that is real is what is going on in his brain. Well, OK. That too may be true. But then. But then he passed up a golden chance to settle, for the first time in 4000 years a philosophical question.

IS THERE A REAL WORLD OUT THERE.

Are the emf's in his brain the only reality? He had a chance to settle that millennium old question once and for all. But he gave it a pass. No, he whiffed it. Never considered it.

He could have had his foot amputated rather than drawing in all of 21st century medicine to save it. And if he had declined both anesthesia and pain control he would have known, absolutely, there is something outside of his brain. After it was all over he could tell something real was no longer there. Just by reaching down. There was a confirming test.

The bull sh#t is beyond all belief. And we seem to keep signing up for it.





Now, the real point.

People say one should say exactly what you think. I have done so, just above. But you see what we think is just a millivolt or so of emf's. It really does not amount to much.

What we think is what we think. Nothing more. The question is, do we actually

do something constructive?

That's the tough one.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Yo John, would it be constructive to post something in such a way that it convinces someone to consider an alternative position, that may, in fact, change their views or actions? Maybe just one person??? Or do we plunge into the muck and fight like reptiles?

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Good point. It's not that people have a totally irrational dislike of others based on the color of their skin it's that they haven't heard a good argument against it yet.
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Yo John, would it be constructive to post something in such a way that it convinces someone to consider an alternative position, that may, in fact, change their views or actions? Maybe just one person??? Or do we plunge into the muck and fight like reptiles?

I am of the opinion public replies are pretty generally non-constructive.

If you want something actually to be considered, use a PM.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 11, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
My mom had her father tell her something along the lines of: 'if you ever marry a nigger I'll blow your head off to save your soul.'

When was this?

I guess I should've clarified that I was asking about recent history... like in the last 5-10 years... not something from 30 or 40 years ago.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 11, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
20 years ago,
the kid who parents were so afraid of poor people that they took him out of school and sent him to jesus camps comes up and tells us one day

" did you know that if a girl sleeps with a "colored" person just once, for the rest of her life she might have a baby that color?!?!?"

he'd just learned that in chapel...
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
I just have a hard time trying to label a guy with a confederate battle flag decal on the back window of his truck, as a racist. People have a right to put any sticker on their truck that they want... it is not for you or me to fix any particular motive to it... it is theirs' to own. As we have seen in many of these posts, that flag means different things to different people and to say it has only one meaning and that is the meaning you or I affix to it, will not get anything done.

Examine this thread as a cross-section of the thinking in America. The flag is not the problem. Count the mental midgets that have tried to make excuses here, be disingenuous as to the correlation between the protection of slavery and the civil war, the pseudo-men that shiver at the thought of knocking someone down that deserves it.

That's the real problem, I'd say. You "have a hard time trying to label a guy with a confederate battle flag decal on the back window of his truck, as a racist".

Really? Do you really?

What do you need, then? Does he have to come up, give you an open-mouthed kiss, and then show you his bikini-line WHITE POWER tattoo?

To answer the question from the brain-trust, was I there at the restaurant personally when the young couple and their child were called "disgusting" by another person as he walked by their table? No, I wasn't, or else I'd have a great followup story, no doubt. This is an long-time friend of my girl (who is a model and quite non-disgusting), who has also been menaced for no reason on the freeway with a rifle, once the other riders saw they were a black and white couple. For those of you interested, this happened in Texas.

I should probably go a little easier on those of you who just don't seem to get it. It's mostly an issue of perspective, I'd imagine. We are, for the most part, a bunch of pasty bastards.

For most of us, we don't know what it's like to be looked at like animals because we date across racial lines, treated like 2nd class.

We don't know what it's like, as a small girl, to watch your father be called a NIGGER and just have to stand there and take it, humiliated in front of his family.

These are just a couple examples of things that have happened to people that I care about. These are current things - they don't even come close to the atrocities against people of color in our country even 40 years ago, much less the early/mid 1800s. Even so, they are outrageous and unacceptable.

So keep your rebel flag, you backwards pieces of whatever. Like someone said - it tells us pretty much all we need to know about you from a distance.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:45am PT
Bruch3y hopefully you will swing into action soon and solve the problem by doing some real violence on someone. I can see that there is no need to discuss anything further with you, as you seem to have it all figured out. Perhaps you will get to see some real, modern racism, from the inside of a corrections facility. Let us know how that works for you bro.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 12, 2013 - 02:24am PT
Maybe someday the "stars and bars" will be sort of like the parody that the pirate flag is today. But that time is not now. Rolling with the confederate flag = total racist douchebag. Argue otherwise but that's just what it means.

Disclaimer: my family (at least the of age men at the time and none of whom owned slaves) ALL fought for the confederate army in some capacity, from conscripts fresh off the boat from Ireland to the army's freaking poet. No one in my modern family would ever consider rolling around with that stupid racist flag.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 12, 2013 - 02:29am PT
And while I'm at it, most southern resentment comes from the slash and burn tactics by the north after the south was defeated + reconstruction. Really no one can complain that the union army suppressed succession, any more than a state or county could seriously gripe about it now.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Nov 12, 2013 - 05:30am PT
Just another elephant mouth with a hummingbird ass. Spout all you'd like about kicking ass here in California where we could give a sh#t (my mother being black and all). Take your crusade down to Mississipi and eastern Alabama, throw a few punches down there and let us know how it works out for you.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Nov 12, 2013 - 09:37am PT
“I speak to everyone in the same way, whether he is the garbage man or the president of the university.”
― Albert Einstein

Fyodor Dostoyevsky
“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.”


Stieg Larsson
“Friendship- my definition- is built on two things. Respect and trust. Both elements have to be there. And it has to be mutual. You can have respect for someone, but if you don't have trust, the friendship will crumble.”

Leo Tolstoy
“Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be.”



Winston Churchill
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.”


Steve Maraboli
“How would your life be different if…You stopped making negative judgmental assumptions about people you encounter? Let today be the day…You look for the good in everyone you meet and respect their journey.”

Harper Lee
“As you grow older, you'll see white men cheat black men every day of your life, but let me tell you something and don't you forget it - whenever a white man does that to a black man, no matter who he is, how rich he is, or how fine a family he comes from, he is trash.”


Confucius
“Respect yourself and others will respect you.”



“The truest form of love is how you behave toward someone, not how you feel about them.”
― Steve Hall


Simone Elkeles
“Love is honesty. Love is a mutual respect for one another.”

Wm. Paul Young
“Submission is not about authority and it is not obedience; it is all about relationships of love and respect.”

Theodore Roosevelt
“I am an American; free born and free bred, where I acknowledge no man as my superior, except for his own worth, or as my inferior, except for his own demerit.”


Mahatma Gandhi
“I cannot conceive of a greater loss than the loss of one's self-respect.”

Mary Balogh
“I can be hurt, she said, only by people I respect.”


Hermann Hesse
“It may be important to great thinkers to examine the world, to explain and despise it. But I think it is only important to love the world, not to despise it, not for us to hate each other, but to be able to regard the world and ourselves and all beings with love, admiration and respect.”




Chief Seattle
“The earth does not belong to us. We belong to the earth.”


Immanuel Kant
“Always treat people as ends in themselves, never as means to an end.”


Thomas S. Monson
“When we treat people merely as they are, they will remain as they are. When we treat them as if they were what they should be, they will become what they should be. ”

Steve Maraboli
“How would your life be different if…You approached all relationships with authenticity and honesty? Let today be the day…You dedicate yourself to building relationships on the solid foundation of truth and authenticity.”


Dave Barry
“I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don't even invite me.”


Jarod Kintz
“Respect doesn’t have to be shiny. It just needs to be wearable. Would you be so kind as to hold my jockstrap while I stir your hot coffee?


my favorite:

Duane Allman's personal philosophy of life was very simple and basic. He once said, "Everything's the same everywhere. There are nice folks, and ass-holes, and you have to learn to distinguish between the two in order to get by. And someone who's an ass-hole to somebody may be a nice folk to somebody else, so you've got to learn to be nice to everybody, and show everybody respect, that's the only way people respect you. You've got to have mutual respect and a little bit of love, if you can round it up. And don't be afraid to share what's inside of you with other people. That's the only way you're ever going to get free or have any fun all, either. So just rock on, and have you a good time. If I have a choice between having a good time and a shitty time, I'm going to have me a good time. I've had enough shitty times."
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:06am PT
Hey Sprock, your account has been hacked. Sorry, I mean, nice post.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:06am PT
I will say it has been interesting at times to weed through this thread. There are some really good posts here if you don't let the other 90% bog you down.

Next time I see that confederate battle flag displayed I will try to take the time to have a conversation with the owner of it. I will be very curious as to why they have it up. I can imagine a whole range of reasons they might do so and will be genuinely interested to see what that person is about.

It is fascinating that that one strikingly colored flag can mean vastly different things to various people. Good and bad.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:07am PT
Nice post, indeed.
Red Swami

climber
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:24am PT
Credit: Red Swami
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:26am PT


Racist gets his DNA results.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:35am PT
I liked the story Off White posted, but it sure would have been nice to hear/see the conversation between the piano player (unarmed) and the Klansman (with his armed body guard).
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:50am PT
its sad how few people have the slightest comprehension of what racism is.
racism is the exercise of power over another group to deny it equal and fair treatment before the law.

personal FEELINGS about this 'other' group mean next to nothing when the harm and predation being inflicted are what being added up.

a colored person cant be a RACIST unless they are excercising power over you


and that happens less often than voters at the poll using fake id's



whitey knows without fail that he cant walk into court and demand compensations for his feeling being hurt, but thats ALL hes got to talk about in response when the 'other' brings their list of ACTUAL DAMAGES around

the worest racists are those of you who tell yourself you dont have any animosity against the other BUT at the same time you lock step shoulder to shoulder with institutional traditions and practices which exclude the other from equal representation and fair treatment before the law.

think about it...

you pretend your a good person and simple step back into the defense of CLASSism; the age old root of injustice and slavery for which RACism has simple been a tool it picks up every now and then when it serves its purpose

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:54am PT
its sad how few people have the slightest comprehension of what racism is.
racism is the exercise of power over another group to deny it equal and fair treatment before the law.

personal FEELINGS about this 'other' group mean next to nothing when the harm and predation being inflicted are what being added up.

a colored person cant be a RACIST unless they are excercising power over you


and that happens less often than voters at the poll using fake id's



whitey knows without fail that he cant walk into court and demand compensations for his feeling being hurt, but thats ALL hes got to talk about in response when the 'other' brings their list of ACTUAL DAMAGES around

the worest racists are those of you who tell yourself you dont have any animosity against the other BUT at the same time you lock step shoulder to shoulder with institutional traditions and practices which exclude the other from equal representation and fair treatment before the law.

think about it...

you pretend your a good person and simple step back into the defense of CLASSism; the age old root of injustice and slavery for which RACism has simple been a tool it picks up every now and then when it serves its purpose

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 12, 2013 - 11:07am PT
So what you are saying is that wall street is the largest impact racist group in the world?
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 12, 2013 - 11:12am PT
the worest racists are those of you who tell yourself you dont have any animosity against the other BUT at the same time you lock step shoulder to shoulder with institutional traditions and practices which exclude the other from equal representation and fair treatment before the law.

Could you give some current examples of this kind of racism?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 11:30am PT
its runs the full gambit,
one stellar example was when the farm subsidies system was caught so red handed excluding colored farmers from their system that they didnt even bother defending themselves. entered a guilty consent decree with the promise to makes several billion dollars worth of restitution payments to the victims.

years later the news was that they had only payed out 8% of the restitutions.

and their excuse was "these victims are just to stupid to know how to get their money!"


"we dont steal their kids cuz their colored! we take their children away because they wont work"

"we dont steal their homes because their poor and cant afford to defend themselves! we take their homes after they fail to uphold their end of unconscionable we manovered them into"

"we dont prevent them from accessing the medical treatment they need! we simple analize their educational shortcoming and make sure that access demand they excercise proficencies they dont have"

"we dont target them for malicious criminal justice enforcement! we simple realize they cant afford lawyers and nobody on a jury would believe them anyway SO we get more head into custody per dollar spent crusing their community RATHER than where crime which damages the public to greater degree is occuring"

"we keep em in the longest sentence the law allows because it was colored, we simple realized theyre no job available or career or educational training available for em if they were out so it better for all if a for profit prison gets to suck up several times what any of those would cost the public in keeping them inside where the guards will train them in all the good reasons there are to be animalistic and hateful about society"


whites refuse to acknowledge all the subsidies and welfare theyve grown up on and access day in and out with impunity when it comes to the subject of just what a HANDOUT really is...


youve read this of course?




White Whine: Reflections on the Brain-Rotting Properties of Privilege



etc etc...


Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Nov 12, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Rsin- You are mistaken about the definition of racism. While the word does have multiple meanings I've never seen your definition in any dictionary.

One form of racism is displayed in the Zimmerman threads here on ST. Those folks who are posting links in an attempt to paint a race as more criminally inclined than another race are practicing a form of racism.

You don't have to have control or influence over someone to be a racist. Your claim that blacks can't be racist is just silly, I've known several non-white racists. The truth is that every race has its share of racists.

We also have to keep in mind that there are different levels of racism. Not all racists are of the Jim Crow hang'em from the nearest tree type racist.

I think of myself as a bigot against bigots.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
you have to have NO RESPECT for the property and bodies and freedom of colored people to stand by the notion that hurt feelings trump abuse under color of authority

you dont any more supremely bigotted than that

btw,
who wrote that dictionary of yours?
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Could you give some current examples of this kind of racism?

Current drug policy....

"red-lining" by the banking industry....

The Prison-industrial complex....

Zero-Tolerance school disciplinary policy....


......Need I go on?
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Is it a bunch of White people arguing about racism here??
Must be Americans...
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Mandatory sentencing guidelines....

Environmental racism...

The Mormon Church....

Southern Baptist Convention...

The Republican Party....

Food Deserts....
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
I don't have a clue what your first two lines mean. You may want to consider taking more time to express your thoughts in more comprehensive manner.

As to your question, Merriam-Webster dictionary among others. Where did you get your definition from? My guess is that you made it up.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Current drug policy....

"red-lining" by the banking industry....

The Prison-industrial complex....

Zero-Tolerance school disciplinary policy....


Need I go on?

I agree with you on our national drug policy. It's messed up.

Red-lining by banks? When was the last time a bank was found guilty of redlining?

Zero tolerance in schools? You mean whites get a pass, while blacks get suspended? Where is that happening?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
what it means is when confronted with two cases,

one, a white person having to SUFFER a colored person scouling at him
and two, a colored person not getting told there is a house for rent or a job available

you have a case of A hurting feelings verses A criminal descrimination depriving a person with adaquate money or credentials being denied an essential aspect of his right to life based on their color or name


anyone who tells you that whites can suffer from "reverse racism" is not only standing up for criminal practices of discrimination and segergation...

they are telling you that a white person having to learn what a colored person thinks, is equal in terms of damages, to a colored person being denied the oppertunity to purchase what their money or skills or credentials or legal standing affords them in the market when whitey EXCERCISES the power to deny it to them because they dont like what they see...


to call these equal is the revelation of a two faced bigot with a grotesque indiference to real measurable harm

you know, like the christians who didnt think the american practice of slavery was anything but good for the negro
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
what it means is when confronted with two cases,

one, a white person having to SUFFER a colored person scouling at him
and two, a colored person not getting told there is a house for rent or a job available

you have a case of A hurting feelings verses A criminal descrimination depriving a person with adaquate money or credentials being denied an essential aspect of his right to life based on their color or name


anyone who tells you that whites can suffer from "reverse racism" is not only standing up for criminal practices of discrimination and segergation...

they are telling you that a white person having to learn what a colored person thinks, is equal in terms of damages, to a colored person being denied the oppertunity to purchase what their money or skills or credentials or legal standing affords them in the market when whitey EXCERCISES the power to deny it to them because they dont like what they see...


to call these equal is the revelation of a two faced bigot with a grotesque indiference to real measurable harm

you know, like the christians who didnt think the american practice of slavery was anything but good for the negro

There are different types and levels of racism. You seem to be trying to invalidate most forms of racism, in an effort to elevate one specific kind of racism.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
NEXT TIME I SEE ANY DISPLAY OF CHRISTIANITY, ESPECIALLY CATHOLIC: FREE TRIP TO HOSPITAL!!!!
I'll show them the inquisition...
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Redlining is the practice of denying, or charging more for, services such as banking, insurance,[2] access to health care,[3] or even supermarkets,[4] or denying jobs to residents in particular, often racially determined,[5] areas.

Bank Accused of Pushing Mortgage Deals on Blacks

The Department of Justice today filed the second largest fair lending settlement in the department’s history to resolve allegations that Wells Fargo Bank, the largest residential home mortgage originator in the United States, engaged in a pattern or practice of discrimination against qualified African-American and Hispanic borrowers in its mortgage lending from 2004 through 2009.

Countrywide Financial agreed to pay $335 million dollars to settle claims that, at the height of housing boom, Countrywide routinely discriminated against blacks and Hispanics by charging them higher interest rates and fees than equally qualified white customers.

Black students face tougher discipline

Across all districts, African-American students are over 3½ times more likely to be suspended or expelled than their white peers. In districts that reported expulsions under zero-tolerance policies, Hispanic and African-American students represent 45% of the student body, but 56% of the students expelled under such policies.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
What a shitty thread.

Racism is for losers, as is violence or threats thereof.

I've been in my share of fights, and there's nothing cool about kicking someone's ass, or conversely, getting your ass kicked. I've been on both ends of the spectrum and it didn't solve anything for me. Honestly, it made things worse.

When I kicked some ass, I felt really terrible afterwards. When I got my ass kicked, I felt pretty terrible as well.

The sudden violence that accompanies fights may appeal to some, but it's no longer a part of my life. I'm man enough now to not instigate sh#t, I voice my opinion and let it go.

Living my life in a respectable manner works for me.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
"there are different types and levels of racism. You seem to be trying to invalidate most forms of racism, in an effort to elevate one specific kind of racism. "


most???

you mean im trying to elevate ACTUAL MEASURABLE HARM done to people over storys about whitey getting his panties in a bunch when someone he looks down on doesnt say "yessa boss!!"

well, i guess if your deal involves silencing colored people and only listening to whitey you might have a point

but its a point you can only have with a bucket over your head

while your singing that LALALAALLALALA hymn the muslim women like whenever your being held to account for actual damages

just like your idiot kids do with their chant of USA USA whenever they need to drown out the truths which dont fit into theyre myopic take on things

which is them thinking their TAKE from the other, is the way god intended


face it,
your just defending the lack of integrity
telling us it should be grandfathered into the ranks of decency






Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Thanks for the explanation rSin.

All racism is nasty. Even the milder forms of racism visible in the Zimmerman threads adds to the overall problem. I doubt any of those posters want to actively discriminate against people with dark skin. But nonetheless, due to their racist generalizations, they are helping to perpetuate the problem.

I was first introduced to racism while attending elementary school in Macon Ga during the late sixties. Since then I have seen a lot of positive changes. We still have a long way to go but we're headed in the right direction on equality.

I agree about reverse racism, I never bought into it. A racist is a racist regardless of skin color.

I gotta split, have a good day.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 12, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Redlining is the practice of denying, or charging more for, services such as banking, insurance,[2] access to health care,[3] or even supermarkets,[4] or denying jobs to residents in particular, often racially determined,[5] areas.

Bank Accused of Pushing Mortgage Deals on Blacks

Black students face tougher discipline

Across all districts, African-American students are over 3½ times more likely to be suspended or expelled than their white peers. In districts that reported expulsions under zero-tolerance policies, Hispanic and African-American students represent 45% of the student body, but 56% of the students expelled under such policies.

Thanks
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 12, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
By Digby

Comments One of America's Worst Columnists Writes Another Racist Column
Where would we be without Richard Cohen?
November 12, 2013 |


From the original wanker himself, Richard Cohen:

Today's GOP is not racist, as Harry Belafonte alleged about the tea party, but it is deeply troubled — about the expansion of government, about immigration, about secularism, about the mainstreaming of what used to be the avant-garde.

People with conventional views must repress a gag reflex when considering the mayor-elect of New York — a white man married to a black woman and with two biracial children. (Should I mention that Bill de Blasio's wife, Chirlane McCray, used to be a lesbian?) This family represents the cultural changes that have enveloped parts — but not all — of America. To cultural conservatives, this doesn't look like their country at all.


Right. Nothing racist or bigoted about that. It's just that they want to throw up at the sight of interracial marriage and biracial kids, especially when one of the negroes in question is a deviant. And can you blame them? Their world is changing and it's upsetting to them. Look at their president. He's one of them. It's enough to make them projectile vomit just thinking about it. What could be more conventional than that?

We should feel sorry for them. Back in the good old days we had Operation Wetback and Jim Crow and we made little children to participate in religious ceremonies for their own good. This was before Big Government decided that the "avant-garde" had all kinds of special rights. They're understandably upset because there are only so many rights to go around and every "right" assumed by these other people is a right that's taken away from conventional people who deserve them. Why they hardly have any rights left at all.

Thank goodness we have compassionate, understanding liberals like Richard Cohen out there explaining their needs and wants to the avant-garde (even though they hate him too.) Where would they be without friends like him?

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 13, 2013 - 09:33am PT
"there are different types and levels of racism. You seem to be trying to invalidate most forms of racism, in an effort to elevate one specific kind of racism. "

most???

you mean im trying to elevate ACTUAL MEASURABLE HARM done to people over storys about whitey getting his panties in a bunch when someone he looks down on doesnt say "yessa boss!!"

well, i guess if your deal involves silencing colored people and only listening to whitey you might have a point

but its a point you can only have with a bucket over your head

while your singing that LALALAALLALALA hymn the muslim women like whenever your being held to account for actual damages

just like your idiot kids do with their chant of USA USA whenever they need to drown out the truths which dont fit into theyre myopic take on things

which is them thinking their TAKE from the other, is the way god intended

face it,
your just defending the lack of integrity
telling us it should be grandfathered into the ranks of decency

Dayum dude. You're way off the dumbf*#k scale.

You're big on accusations that are based on ..... nothing.

You seem to think "the exercise of power over another group to deny it equal and fair treatment before the law" is the only kind of racism that matters.

That's bullsh#t.

Go read the last three pages of this thread. There are numerous examples of racism that does't meet your definition.

You also seem think my telling you that your definition of racism is limited means I'm talking about reverse racism. You give a bunch of stupid examples that are completely unrelated to anything I've posted. Then, you make it about my children. My daughter's school is 35% African American and 20% Hispanic. The concept of her being better than of them due to her race is completely alien to her. The fact that you drag her into this is a testament to your character.

Earlier in this thread, I commented about certain posters showing the same kind of bigotry common among Jim Crow era racists. By that I meant using sweeping negative stereotypes to condemn individuals, who've done nothing to deserve those condemnations. You're the posterchild for what I was talking about.

Go visit the FBI Hate Crime reports and SPLC. There's a lot more to racism than just your definition.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 13, 2013 - 09:53am PT
weve heard your STORY before...

your that cops, one of those 5 has that girl pinned to the ground, one of you standing on here neck. her foot happens to brush one of your cuffs and gets it muddy

and your charging her with assault


weve heard your STORY before...

your that giu standing behind your foot door with a shotgun, staring at the girl whos knocking. shes just been in a car accident and needs someone to call 911. you wait till she turns her back then you open the door and blow her head off. then you sit down for two hours BEFORE you call 911

and tell them you just shot someone trying to break into your house


weve heard your STORY before...
your kids playing out front in the yard in a cast; two black eyes, matching his mom makeup

and your telling us " he DARED look me in the eye right as my buzz was just getting how i like it"


ya
weve heard your story before...

its for sh#t
you know it
were done with it



why dont you really be a man
finish the that knott
get it over with eh?
Credit: rSin
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:06am PT
"Screw the Constitution! It only prevents the government from becoming all powerful!"

"Burning the flag is free speech, but flying a flag is racist!"

"You don't have any rights except those granted by the government!"

"You have no right to protect yourself or your family!"

"If you don't like this, you are a racist!"


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Ummmm , no bookworm.

If you proudly fly a flag with full knowledge of its symbolic representation of belligerent championing of slavery and segregation by race.... Then you are indeed a racist or at the very least you willfully chose to defend it over the opposite for purposes that only your pathetic twisted little mind can rationalize.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:21am PT
Bookworm f*#k you, you neoconfederate troll. Seriously, fukk you.


I laugh at you. Why? Because your kind is in decline--culturally, demographically and politically. You frustrated, angry little man.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Calling members of the forum "racists" over and over is not insightful.

It is a false charge and no one should listen to it.


Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:27am PT
Bookworm f*#k you, you neoconfederate troll. Seriously, fukk you.


I laugh at you.

Speaking of mixed messages.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Bookworm f*#k you, you neoconfederate troll. Seriously, fukk you.

Yeah, that should bring him around onto the true path. Most eloquently put.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:37am PT
"You seem to think "the exercise of power over another group to deny it equal and fair treatment before the law" is the only kind of racism that matters."


yes,
when a house is on fire, screw you for wanting some of the firemen to come check if your bbq is burning a bit high

yes,
when the damns broke and the towns being evacuated, screw your mopping the kitchen floor

yes
when the cops are beating your neighbor to a bloody pulp in the backyard, screw your wanting to news to cover you telling about how his radio was turned up to loud

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:39am PT
Hermit master - to a degree true, but there is a perfectly valid point in defining the meaning of that stupid funking flag. The reason in retains some vague semblance of respectability has to do with idiotic distortion s of the truth like that spewed by the hookworm. All logical reasoning indicates it is the flag of racism, much like the swastika is. If hooky wants to fly it then so he defines himself.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Reilly you really think these pukes are interested in reason?

No. They're just a bitter bunch of old white men, fearful of a changing world with more brown people, and so they cling to a bitter, hateful, and divisive symbol.


No, they've had 150 years to grow up and embrace modernity, but they still fight it kicking and screaming.

Fook all of them.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:30am PT
Reilly you really think these pukes are interested in reason?

No. They're just a bitter bunch of old white men, fearful of a changing world with more brown people, and so they cling to a bitter, hateful, and divisive symbol.


No, they've had 150 years to grow up and embrace modernity, but they still fight it kicking and screaming.

Fook all of them.

Have you listened to the Darrell Davis story?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Dirt, I just don't like seeing you writhing in the mudpit.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Thanks Reilly--seriously thanks.

Sometimes you just have to call it as it is.

People have been arguing and dying over these issues for years, and yet these knuckle draggers are still here espousing the same backwards-ass bullsh#t.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Racist you say? What do you think about a third world group that plans to repopulate a country with THEIR people only. And perfectly willing to do it against all laws of that country? Does that sound a little RACIST to you?
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:58am PT
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm


Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.


blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 13, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Funny how some of you who are all bent out of shape at the Confederate Flag are the same ones who apparently want to see the "Red States" separate out from your "Blue States."
Hypocrisy much?

Getting bent, one way or the other, about flags and such is a fool's errand, so no surprise to see it getting so much traction on ST.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 13, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Getting bent, one way or the other, about flags and such is a fool's errand

Yep.

DMT
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 13, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
So, OP, a REGULAR US flag doesn't make you go batsh#t?

Are you suggesting that, somehow, extermination of Indians (that was happening in parallel with slavery and continued after slavery had ended) was somehow BETTER than slavery?

Suggesting the the "solution" of killing people was better than exploiting them?

Typical pseudo-progressive HYPOCRISY and self-serving tunnel vision.

(I'm, personally, OK with any flags, including Pirate flag...free speech ya know)

Credit: tioga
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
So, OP, a REGULAR US flag doesn't make you go batsh#t?

Looks like you are having trouble recognizing/admitting the attitude that goes along with the confederate flag.

It's okay, read the whole thread - it's full of the same blindness.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 13, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
I do not EQUATE the flag and attitude.

Should US FLAG be held responsible for atrocities in Vietnam? Current atrocities in Middle East?
etc.
The list can go on and on-if we start equating attitudes to flags...this will become a simple witchhunt, then.
I had lived in Deep South and had certainly seen it from the "outsider" if not "unwelcome outsider" standpoint, certainly.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Tioga.

If you'd like to join the rest of us in reality, it's really great over here.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
It isn't about what might, on paper, be interpreted.

It's because there are millions of people already who hate and despise it seeing it in their towns.

I agree that the U.S. flag might be inciting anger at some specific areas around the world - but a better analogy would be to use the swastika in a jewish neighborhood. They lost the war and the legacy was that of minorities being treated less than human. The infrastructure behind the two flags has fallen, unlike the stars and stripes which you can find at any international game we are invited to.

Fact. The memory and symbolism of those two flags, to the majority of those affected by their outcomes, aren't so positive.

o-man

Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
Nov 13, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Back in 1963 after living in Europe for four years my parents and I returned to our family home in Mississippi.( It was during the civil rights period). Pearl, Mississippi was a universe away from Bittborg, West Germany. (It was like being dropped onto another planet!) In Mississippi I experienced racial segregation for the first time in my life. (There were separate drinking fountains, restrooms, schools, church’s,and buses for the black people in the community we lived in.
Once my father was assaulted by the KKK for promoting a black employee to a supervisory position in his company instead of a white man.
As soon as I finished high school I move away and never looked back.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
when pigs ran free
little rock, 57'
nothing brings out the man
like 3.2 beer
Credit: rSin
Credit: rSin
Credit: rSin
Deekaid

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
that was pretty good Mr Davis
i like that link inside a quote technique
MisterE

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:00am PT
Keep calm and foment hate.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:39am PT
Free trip to Hospital
obamaScare
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:01am PT

Sidenote about bigots:

Just this trip a bigot in particular made many racial slurs, often using freely the word "Nigger"...

Hard as fuk to handle, especially since it was coming from a supposed "Friend" that MUST be aware that my Son in Law is black, and my Grandchildren are mixed...

What the fuk is WRONG with some people???...

John M

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 02:08am PT
Getting bent, one way or the other, about flags and such is a fool's errand

Yep.

DMT

there are exceptions to this belief.
QITNL

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 06:52am PT
Next Confederate Flag I see = Free trip to Hospital

Here's a Confederate Flag:



Unless someone else has already won this contest, kindly send your payment to the Philippines.



Plenty folks there might like a Free trip to Hospital.
WTF

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Locker

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU.

if your not willing to step up and say something then your as big a part of the problem as so called friend who just uses the n word.

Man up you pussy and say something you f*#king cracker.

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:17am PT
lots of white people dont know the difference between nigger and nigga,
HUGE difference

one of the easiest ways to spot a racist is when they say " but but but BLACK people call themselves NIGGER at the time!"

no, they dont



Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:04am PT
lots of white people dont know the difference between nigger and nigga,
HUGE difference

What's the difference?

one of the easiest ways to spot a racist is when they say " but but but BLACK people call themselves NIGGER at the time!"

I used to hear that justification back in the last century! Back when a lot of young blacks referred to each other by that term. But everybody wised up. Whites using that excuse figured out it really doesn't matter what blacks say. It's still offensive. And the young blacks found out it was still offensive to many blacks. So they cut it out. Or at least they stopped being so public about it.

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:19am PT
the world nigger was a tool of oppression used to reinforce the subjegation of a captive class and malign their actual value and worth.

every captive class throughout history has sought to defang the insterments of its oppressions and where possible turn them against its enslavers. in the case of words, this abouts to peverting them

a black person uses the word nigga to this effect.
the world nigger is only used in intelectual discourses about history

nigger was used by dominionists to discredit its victims

when you actually define the character traits its inbuing on those it labels it becomes quite clear that the only REAL niggers are white people who think that the institutional domination of blacks and mexican and indians etc ended long ago

ignoranuses

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:28am PT
this is OT, but

can someone help me with erectile dysfunction?





































Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:50am PT
X marks the spot.

Love that Southern Cross.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Locker,

Sorry you had to endure that - as you can tell by a good portion of the posts here, even our fellow climbers often don't get it.

Again - amazed by the "bravery" of online behavior. Conversation would be very different in person. Looking forward to the day I run into some of you out at the crag so we can talk about racism in person.

Incidentally, mixed girl just told to straighten her hair at my girlfriend's firm for the job interview, so she'd look more white.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:47am PT
" can someone help me with erectile dysfunction?"


watching 12 years a slave didnt work?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:56am PT

"WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU.

if your not willing to step up and say something then your as big a part of the problem as so called friend who just uses the n word."
...


Timing...

Wouldn't have been appropriate...

Just because some can be insensitive, I saw no reason to follow in suit...






EDITED:

"as you can tell by a good portion of the posts here, even our fellow climbers often don't get it."...

Yep...






Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Locker, dontchya just love being told how to walk in another man's shoes?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Doesnt seem like the BURCHEY marched over to his GF's "firm" to bitch them out..
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
"Locker, dontchya just love being told how to walk in another man's shoes?"...


If'n ya mix sh!t with sh!t...

ya get more sh!t!!!...



I guess the OP doesn't get that...

My decision was the correct one for the moment...

;-)

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Locker - That's a copout. When someone says offensive/inappropriate stuff, it's easy to politely ask them to give it a rest. You don't have to make it a huge confrontation.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
cmon Burchwood, go forth to the FIRM and tear em a new one.. Or Hey,, give us the name of that filthy racist firm your GF works for. Ill stir some shyt for ya..!


And OF COURSE,, one can ONLY assume that your GF is OK with racist firms as she works in one.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:21pm PT

"Locker - That's a copout."...



It's NOT always appropriate to speak out and not knowing me???...

Well, trust me when I say keeping my cool was VERY important...


Question:

Were you there???...

Of course not!!!...



Then STFU because you don't have a clue...

;-)


Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Sorry you had to endure that - as you can tell by a good portion of the posts here, even our fellow climbers often don't get it.

I get it. I get that a lot of posters are completely unable to consider the possibility that some people who show the Confederate flag are not motivated by racism.... that their reasons are honorable.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
"Incidentally, mixed girl just told to straighten her hair at my girlfriend's firm for the job interview, so she'd look more white."

This is what they said or this is your conclusion?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Ron,

Because you're a peabrain, and you don't have all the details, I'll cut you some slack.

Also, because you remind me of a baby bird or dinosaur. Don't you have some worms or lizards you should be macking on right now?

She works at a legal staffing firm, who understands the reality of getting hired. They advised her to straighten her hair, because the reality of today, is that if you look more white, you're more likely to be hired. Luckily for you, there are no appearance requirements to play with the insides of dead animals.

My point was: this is the climate currently. Just another example.


Locker, totally get that you didn't say anything, I'm assuming you're talking about the memorial, and were trying to be respectful of Blitzo and the whole thing.

If you know this guy, why not say something now to him in private? Bring it up somehow?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:32pm PT

"I get it. I get that a lot of posters are completely unable to consider the possibility that some people who show the Confederate flag are not motivated by racism...."...

There are usually exceptions to the rule...

But the majority are red neck idiots...(EDITED: So if you CHOOSE to show that dumb flag, be prepared to be included in THAT group ;-)




EDITED:

"Locker, totally get that you didn't say anything, I'm assuming you're talking about the memorial, and were trying to be respectful of Blitzo and the whole thing."...

Exactly!!!...

Just not the right time...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:39pm PT



learn WHY the Southerners fly that flag^^^^^^^^^
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
What does straightening your hair have to do with being whiter? Only White woman have straight hair? Maybe it has to do with looking professional, not white? Unless looking professional is only a "white" thing. Did they actually claim they believe she would look more white and that would be better for the firm? Or are you just assuming they believe straight hair makes you look "whiter" and therefore more professional? Sounds to me like they just have a dress/hair code?
Is she the only one they have targeted like this?
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
What does straightening your hair have to do with being whiter? Only White woman have straight hair? Maybe it has to do with looking professional, not white? Unless looking professional is only a "white" thing. Did they actually claim they believe she would look more white and that would be better for the firm? Or are you just assuming they believe straight hair makes you look "whiter" and therefore more professional? Sounds to me like they just have a dress/hair code?
Is she the only one they have targeted like this?

I feel like I clarified in the response to baby-bird-Ron already, but here's some more!

Curly hair is often tied to being ethnic. I'm trying to figure out how looking ethnic is considered unprofessional, but the reality is: this is how it works in the business world. Reality, but shitty nonetheless.

She works at a company that places people with companies looking for employees, and advised her that she'd have a warmer reception if she straightened her hair.

She is the first case that my girl has mentioned, but my girl has been told the same thing before regarding a meeting with potential new clients.

Like I said - old dried up crackers (95% of the people here) have no idea.

EDIT: Here's my girl, so you can see how unprofessional these curls can be.

Credit: Burch3y
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
Then you should go to www.rockclimbing.com I hear its ubber coolio..
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
There are usually exceptions to the rule...

But the majority are red neck idiots...(EDITED: So if you CHOOSE to show that dumb flag, be prepared to be included in THAT group ;-)

Of course, the only thing you have to base that on is your own bigoted ignorance.

Bravo.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:00pm PT

"Of course, the only thing you have to base that on is your own bigoted ignorance."...

I am from the south, Mother was born and raised in Bogalusa Louisiana, my Uncles were KKK...

I am speaking from personal experience...

Again...

ZERO CLUE!!!...

;-)




EDITED:

However...

I should add that I still love Grits and Hushpuppies...

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
There are nine States, including Maryland, that allow Sons of Confederate Veterans custom license plates.

Do you think those state governments would allow it, if it's as overtly racist as y'all claim?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:04pm PT




Just to make sure some of you see this^^^^^^.. And ive received the exact same answers from Folks in Geogia as to why they fly the stars and bars.


So this thread,dedicated to a racism in its own right, attempts to stir the crap where there IS NONE in some vein effort of style perhaps? Or simply a very naive and stereo typical view on the part of the OP. Because according to HIM,, Blacks never say "buddy".....
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
Well Sketch...

no more CLUELESS comments???...




EDITED:

Bottom line...

Anytime you see a confederate flag attached to a window in a home or car...

99% of the time it will be there because the dude that owns it is a bigot and a redneck...

That's just a fuking FACT!!!...

Trying to claim otherwise is fuking foolish...

Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
"Of course, the only thing you have to base that on is your own bigoted ignorance."...

I am from the south, Mother was born and raised in Bogalusa Louisiana, my Uncles were KKK...

I am speaking from personal experience...

Since you know how people are in a single backwoods shithole, where you lived a long time ago, you think that makes you an expert on the entire South?

Try again.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:07pm PT


"Since you know how people are in a single backwoods shithole, where you lived a long time ago, you think that makes you an expert on the entire South?"...

Again TOTALLY clueless...

I give up...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Locker,, got a "link"??


And is that Back Gentlemen ( Former pres of a NAACP chapter) in the vid i posted a racist? Is my BUDDY Sam in Georgia also a racist since he too is black?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:13pm PT


"Locker,, got a "link"??"...



Ron...

I am beginning to believe that YOU are the missing link...

LOL!!!...



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Holy crap Ron, where'd you dig up that video?

I was wondering what has happened to allen west lately. He's looking a little haggard! Has he been hitting the bottle a bit more than usual?
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Bottom line...

Anytime people see that confederate flag attached to a window in a home or car...

99% of the time it will be there because the dude that owns it is a bigot and a redneck...

That's just a fuking FACT!!!...

Trying to claim otherwise is fuking foolish...

Speaking of clueless comments.... you've outdone yourself.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:20pm PT

Perhaps this is a good example of the typical southern ignorance...

"Since you know how people are in a single backwoods shithole"...


"Single backwoods sh!thole"...

Hmmm...

Single = ONE, correct???...

Hmmm...




Did I write or say that I've ONLY lived and visited a SINGLE southern location???...

Try this one dude...

Lots of time spent in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi (A LOT of family still living there), South and North Carolina, etc...

You ASSUME you know something when you DON'T...

LOL!!!...

TOTALLY FUKING CLUELESS!!!...(Concerning this matter that is)




locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:22pm PT


"Speaking of clueless comments.... you've outdone yourself."...

You could NOT be further from correct!!!...


The vast majority of you Rebel Flag flying fukers is a bigot and a redneck and that's just SIMPLE fact...

dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
So they did not actually say "You will look more white"? Or you would have gone down there and kicked some ass, right?

I feel there is a possibility this had nothing to do with race and perhaps someone or some people there know from experience that the more professional you look the better chances you have of getting hired. I can see a white girl with the same frizzy hairdo being told the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect, I like that look, and I'm sure many places would be fine with it, but perhaps it does not look great to others, perhaps it's personal opinion, sounds like they advised her, not told her she had to change it. You think they are just uptight about looking professional. Why would they even consider hiring her out if they are racist? If you/she feels this is racism then keep the hair and fight back.
I see racism in the world, but I try not to pin every issue going on to racism. Many people have "prejudices" and "stereotypes" that are mistaken and we learn through interaction/education when we are wrong. These words do not even exist anymore, they have all fallen under the umbrella of "racism"

Maybe you don't look at it this way Burchey, but your comment about black people not speaking a certain way is wrong. I mean seriously, how are "black" people supposed to talk. If you say "buddy" then you must not be black. No wonder people like Allen West get called "Orios" They are too "white", they are not supposed to talk like that huhh?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:28pm PT

PS:

Sketch...

We've never met (At least I don't think we have) and I don't really have a CLUE as to your belief systems and such...

However, you're beginning to bug me here so I am politely backing off before I snap and have yet another "SUPER TOPO MASSIVE MELTDOWN"...

LOL!!!...

Take care man (Or woman???)...



I'm OUT!!!...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Locker = Harry Calaghan


"A man's got to know his limitations...."



Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Maybe you don't look at it this way Burchey, but your comment about black people not speaking a certain way is wrong. I mean seriously, how are "black" people supposed to talk. If you say "buddy" then you must not be black. No wonder people like Allen West get called "Orios" They are too "white", they are not supposed to talk like that huhh?

Again, hyper-focusing on this...scratching my head. I'll chock it up to "things are lost over the internet".

The guy had 2 or 3 posts total. Anonymous account. No pictures to verify he was black. Etc etc. It was most likely another cracker user here, with the classic "oh btw, I'm black" or "oh btw, my mom's a black man" or whatever.

If you can take your thinking to the next level, was it possible that I wasn't buying this guy, and just having a bit of fun?

MAYBE?

That being said, my friends of different color/background DO ream each other all the time about our slang and such. That part, wasn't a joke.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Locker,,stop wearing your heart on your sleeve. All the offense YOU take over what is said- you give back to folks like me- whos black BUDDYS fly stars and bars over SOUTHERN PRIDE. Do you not think your words have that same effect? Labeling them racist rednecks is harldy accurate. There are just as many prejudice folks in COLO or Cali.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
150 year later, here we are, still arguing with dumbasses about that stupid confederidiot flag. At best, the people displaying and defending it are ignorant pukes. At worst, they are ignorant, racist, hateful neoconfederate pukes. Either way, they're pukes.

They certainly aren't worth defending.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Yahhh it took a CALIFORNIA type to bring it here eh...One who thinks black folks dont say "buddy"... (cant make this shyt up)
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Yahhh it took a CALIFORNIA type to bring it here eh...One who thinks black folks dont say "buddy"... (cant make this shyt up)

Credit: Burch3y
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Nov 14, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
But Ron, Allen West IS a racist. It merely manifests as self loathing.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 14, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Yes, I got the fact that you did not think he was for real, that was pretty obvious. Your suspicions were obviously raised even more when he did not talk like he was "supposed" to. I don't have Hispanic, Black, Asian, etc... friends that ream "whitey" for how they supposedly talk. Perhaps my friends are not "real enough". I get it though. It's not a differing opinion I have. It's that I can't think on the same level. Perhaps I will get there some day.
If you weren't being serious with that comment, well,sorry I'm blowing it out of proportion. It's a little hard to tell with the ways things have been going on this thread what people mean and don't mean.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Bruce the guy in my vid was H.K. Edgerton i believe..







But heres a more modern black youth also explaining the stars and bars. And NOTE where it is said hes become the most POPULAR guy on campus...hmmmmmm Is it possible that some have advanced from those latter 1800s??
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/confederacy-approves-black-soldiers

On this day in 1865, with the main Rebel armies facing long odds against must larger Union armies, the Confederacy, in a desperate measure, reluctantly approves the use of black troops.

The idea of enlisting blacks had been debated for some time. Arming slaves was essentially a way of setting them free, since they could not realistically be sent back to plantations after they had fought. General Patrick Cleburne had suggested enlisting slaves a year before, but few in the Confederate leadership considered the proposal, since slavery was the foundation of Southern society. One politician asked, "What did we go to war for, if not to protect our property?" Another suggested, "If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong."

Huh. That's weird.

Several thousand blacks were enlisted in the Rebel cause, but they could not begin to balance out the nearly 200,000 blacks who fought for the Union.

I wonder why so many blacks fought for the Union? Weird!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 14, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
The FACT remains they did what they did and their descendants are proud and better-spoken than lots here.

It sickens me to think a man deserves to be sent to the ER or worse for flying the stupid symbol.

Would it be more acceptable to disinter their ancestors' remains and display THEM?

Get it right, azzhats: They are showing respect for their own heroes.

If you can't see that and keep arguing for your "side" you show extreme lack of confidence.

Have a little respect for yourselves and put this one to rest.

RIP the Donefedreacy.

And nobody's gonna benefit by having their ass kicked for being racist.

Fuscshikt, already!
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
And nobody's gonna benefit by having their ass kicked for being racist.

This...

EDIT:

To be honest, we can drop it if you'd like. Contrary to how it may seem, I'm not surprised or that upset by the multitude of hilarious excuses and statements typed out here by our "peers".

You know why it doesn't bother me that much?

Because I know you've already lost. From the worst of the worst (neo-nazis/klan members) to the other end of the spectrum (confederacy-excuse-makers)...you've already lost.

Pure white race?

Not for long, big boys.

As time marches on, the population becomes more and more mixed, more blended. Soon, having curly hair won't be looked at as "unprofessional". Soon, any fool with racist words on his lips will be surrounded by those with no tolerance for such behavior, instead of the mass of enablers we have today.

There's nothing you can do about it. That, gives me relief.

So keep on pointing to a couple black guys that like the battle flag as proof that it doesn't stand for racist attitudes. Keep on trying to pretend that the primary motivation for succession, and thus the civil war, wasn't the institution of slavery and all that came with it...

Your days are numbered.

Cheers!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
in the words of wessie,,, "yur a F#cking idiot"....


And my bird Max would make mincemeat of the likes of you. pfffffff.....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
So, did anybody get their ass kicked yet?



Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Dang gay nazis,,ya cant blame em though. Out there on the eastern front. So cold they would put one sleeping bag together with another for body heat and~~~~
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Nov 14, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Sad thread really, but a great example of rational ignorance as the so called facts vary from revision or subjectivity having been passed down through the years and yet many here believe they know the confederate flag is based on racism or representative of racism.

The book is in the public domain, I read it this past weekend and I did not find a single mention of that flag in the entire book, yet, the images from a movie set off such angry words. Images not present in the book.


Edit: so I don't bump this thread...
The images from the movie that set off angry words were the use of human beings like cattle

Then why is the title of this thread not "next person i see using human beings like cattle = free trip to hospital?

Then OP continues with an example of rational ignorance.
Burch3y

Mountain climber
I offer nothing to the discussion
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Just a note on the lack of spine I mentioned earlier...

our boy Sketch sure does like to delete his posts.

What a wimp.

Sad thread really, but a great example of rational ignorance as the so called facts vary from revision or subjectivity having been passed down through the years and yet many here believe they know the confederate flag is based on racism or representative of racism.

The book is in the public domain, I read it this past weekend and I did not find a single mention of that flag in the entire book, yet, the images from a movie set off such angry words. Images not present in the book.

Just saw your post. Hmmmm. Are you, with a straight face, suggesting that the point of this is that there were too many confederate flags in that movie?

Christ.

The images from the movie that set off angry words were the use of human beings like cattle.

For those of us that can't critically think: the movie reminded me of a terrible era in our history (one of them). The use/display of the confederate flag today, is - for the most part (see 99%), homage to that era. It isn't that hard to follow. My suggestion would be to consume more caffeine to help you stay alert.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 04:55pm PT

The Swastika wasn't always viewed as a Nazi thing either if I'm not mistaken...

But what comes to YOUR mind when you see it now???...

Would you drive around with it in your car window???...

If not, why???...

okie

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Let's keep an open mind about slavery...
Credit: okie
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Just to keep a little mud in the water.....

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:09pm PT

The Swastika wasn't always viewed as a Nazi thing either if I'm not mistaken...

But what comes to YOUR mind when you see it now???...

most rational people would see the Swastika as a symbol of Hitler's Germany
--------------


from wiki:
The symbol has a long history in Europe reaching back to antiquity. In modern times, following a brief surge of popularity as a good luck symbol in Western culture, a swastika was adopted as a symbol of the Nazi Party of Germany in 1920, who used the swastika as a symbol of the Aryan race.

so, there probably really are a handful of people who tattoo one on their forehead or proudly make a Swastika flag and put it in their yard, all the while claiming that is is
a symbol of "good luck"

just exactly like a handful of people on this thread insist that the Confederate flag is merely a symbol of southern "culture and pride", instead of what the vast majority think otherwise
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:09pm PT


I'm missing your point survival...

Probably still too tired from the trip for it to sink in (Or it could be my 60 I.Q.)...

???...

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:12pm PT


"just exactly like a handful of people on this thread insist that the Confederate flag is merely a symbol of southern "culture and pride", instead of what the vast majority think otherwise"...



100 fuking % on the mark!!!...
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Funny thread. It could have meaning and good discussion but it is the internets after all. There are a few historical tidbits here and there I have learned, thanks.


Something that throws me off a fair bit is the use of redneck. Where I am from originally, redneck means somebody that works outside and is maybe a little closer to the land and are goo.d folk. I think what people here mean is hick. I am originally from Bakersfield and now live in W-MT and have to correct my ignorant friends when they are feeling their oats and being judgmental about someone. Half the time I hear people referring to others as rednecks and whatnot, what they do not realize how much they are the similar to those they despise. By similar, I mean projection.

Anyway, have at it and keep on with those insults.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:22pm PT

The term "Redneck" has been accepted to mean BACKWOODS IDIOT (Or it's equivalent) for many years...

The way you are using it is how it was originally used...

I can't think of ANYONE that uses it to mean a "hard working field hand with a sunburned neck" (aka Red neck) any longer...

But that's just me...

;-)

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
I'm missing your point survival...

The point is that there is tons of racism that's hidden and not flown like a flag. There are lots of flags, that don't necessarily mean much at all, except to certain people.

The point is, why would someone go to the trouble to make a Gay Nazi flag?
Because they only like white aryan ass?

Why are a bunch of American Marines hanging out behind an SS flag>

I'm more interested in the questions than the obvious stereotypical answers.



Whose battle flag is that?








What does this mean?







And WTF??







Don't hate the hate for the sake of hating hate so we can stamp out hate.