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jstan
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 22, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
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Yesterday's school shooting in Nevada apparently has stimulated media interest in this answer.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/17/us/maryland-armored-whiteboards/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
Maryland university buying bulletproof whiteboards
By CNN Staff
updated 9:16 AM EDT, Sat August 17, 2013
University of Maryland-Eastern Shore is buying 200 bulletproof whiteboards
The whiteboards use technology developed to protect police, military
The 18-by-20-inch boards weigh less than 4 pounds
(CNN) -- Using technology designed to protect U.S. troops, a Maryland company that makes bulletproof whiteboards has contracted with a university seeking to offer its professors greater protection in the event of a school shooting.
The University of Maryland-Eastern Shore announced that it is purchasing 200 of the whiteboards from Hardwire LLC, a company based in Pocomoke City,
Maryland, citing the need for a heightened sense of security in the wake of deadly mass shootings in recent years.
Hardwire manufactures a variety of protective systems for police and military use, and also designs protective systems for infrastructure such as bridges. Between 2008 and 2011, it produced more than 5,000 armor kits for U.S. Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles, the company says on its website.
More recently, the company has adapted technologies for school security, most notably the lightweight, 18-by-20-inch bulletproof whiteboards designed to protect the user's head and torso.
The university's president, Juliette Bell, told CNN that the deadly school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut last December, in which a lone gunman killed 26 people, including 20 children, was a factor in the decision. Although UMES has not had a shooting incident, preventive campus security is a critical consideration, Bell said. "It's the reality, as unfortunate as that is."
UMES has detailed response procedures for managing emergencies, but Bell said she and other school officials saw the whiteboards as a viable first line of defense.
"Anything that we can do that could potentially save a life, we are going to explore," she said.
UMES Campus Police Chief Ernest Leatherbury noted the board, which weighs less than 4 pounds, is user-friendly. "This is so accessible," he said, "and it's not cumbersome."
UMES is the first U.S. institution of higher education to make such a significant investment in the whiteboards, committing nearly $60,000. They will be in classrooms when classes resume for the fall semester on August 26.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 22, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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wouldn't be the first time a professor hid behind a whiteboard.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
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wouldn't be the first time a professor hid behind a whiteboard.
I resemble that remark!
John
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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So let me get this straight - school shootings are such a problem that we are giving students shields they can hold up in the even someone kicks the door down with an automatic rifle?
Good grief.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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You got that right, GD.
No doubt the NRA gun-nutz will see this as a perfectly logical, reasonable option, along with gun-toting teachers, students, hall monitors, and bullet proof book bags, lunch boxes, etc.
Don't tread on me, goddamit!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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Hey, Greg..did you get my reply to your ST email a few weeks ago? Never sure if yahoo is actually working these days...
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
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There is no "gun problem." Only a people problem. Gun control only offers an illusion of safety.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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Who wants to place bets that the shooter was on psychiatric meds?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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More unrestricted guns will definitely reduce the people problem, unfortunately.
When some disturbed person wants to blow kids to bits, guns sure make it easy for them. There is no doubt about that. I guess the only answer is the threat of more violence. Our society is devolving ;-(
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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There has to be a balance between sword and shield.
Unfortunately we cannot outlaw stupidity. Some people feel the need to look for surrogates.
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jstan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
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WHAT has changed?
Gun owners reproduced.
Killer.
We have had a break through! A major break through with this shooting.
WHAT has changed? /RA
Do you realize how seldom that question is ever asked?
Edit:
WHAT has changed?
The people who buy and shoot guns as well as the quantity and availability of firepower.
Certainly, but other things have also changed. On another thread I mouthed off to the effect that today children are increasingly being raised by other children. This Nevada boy had been bullied. I ask myself what I would have done had my parents been out of the picture and I was being bullied. My first option would have been to get into weight training and learning how to defend myself. We also need to ask how much bullying is backed by a gang. That too is potentially new.
When opposed by a gang and absent an adult supporter, might one get pissed off enough to reach for a piece?
I think we have a number of causes, converging.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
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A part of what has changed, imho, are the number of children from infancy up that are exposed to some pretty severe violence in most of our media, phones, games etc.
Recently heard a 6 year old tell his brother he wanted to kill him. Watching the games he plays I don't think he respects human life and thinks that games and life are similar.
Get these kids outside; put them on a rope safely and let them learn respect and a little fear. Of course, again, imho. Lynne
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
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We have become a society where gratuitous violence is becoming a bigger part of our entertainment, and more accepted. Video games, MMC, Football hits getting out of hand etc. that is one thing that is changing. More people are getting desensitized to it, and if you are on the edge it could seem like a solution to your problems.
Many psychotropic drugs have gnarly side affects as well. Once you start them it can be a life sentence.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Oct 22, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
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WHAT has changed?
A lot of things have changed, problem is there is a lot people who think nothing has changed, like yourself. You hammer down on everything and call it BS, climate change, health care, gun laws...and what happens is people get left behind. They dont get the help they need and then sh#t goes south.
There is a sh#t load more people straining the old system, now folks need to work together, but for some reason there is this every man for himself mentality.
I find it so freaking weird that religious people, supoosedly the best folks on earth, have no problems saying...if he doesnt work he can dye a slow painful death because I refuse to support whatever social progams because its communist or whatever....
Well guess what, the folks who have nothing left to live for or cant get help go bat sh#t crazy and do weird sh#t. Then you end up paying for it in the end anyways, and a lot more.
Here is a news flash for you, sh#t has changed, and its never going back to the way it was...so you can either change, or you can die off and the young folks will change it for you.
Its not the video games, its the absentee parents working 7 days a week to afford sh#t that was, when you were growing up, basic, like a ride to work or a parent free to hunt after school...there are too many folks like you who think hey man I walked up hill both ways and so should you.
Bullet prrof chalk boards...thats the solution? It certainly is the cheapest, but hell one of your other nut bar friends will make chalk board bullets cause thats their right
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Oct 22, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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The gun manufacturers also make the shields. It's a perfectly integrated and controlled vertical market as far as it goes.
The next step will be to buy up big pharma so that they control the means of controlling those who flunk the background checks.
Do they control the background check process yet?
At some point will the gun-runners control every aspect of life in the United States?
And what about planned obsolescence?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Oct 22, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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As these school shootings become more frequent (and they are) the argument that we need more people with more guns to prevent the shootings somehow seems absurd. The only thing we can know with certainty is that there would be no school shootings if there were no guns. Everything else is merely speculation and conjecture.
Curt
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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What has changed, indeed.
I grew up in southern West Virginia in the 1960's and 70's which was probably a "poster child" for a pervasive gun culture. Like Ron, many trucks in the high school parking lot had rifles and shotguns in them. Kids went hunting with other kids and even teachers after school.
Gun availibility of all types has decreased markedly in the USA through time. In addition the prices, in "level" dollars for guns and ammo has increased. Up until the late 1960's guns, up to and including fully automatic weapons and the "assault weapons" of the day - M1A's, M1 Carbies, and Garands were readily available from any hardware store in town and via mail order for very inexpensive prices.
During this time period, the two high schools in town (white and black) were forcibly integrated. There were fist fights, riots and horribly one-sided beat-downs (on both sides of the racial divide) almost daily in the school. No combatants EVER went to get a readily accessible gun from their vehicle.
What has changed? Boys now commit and watch pervasive, gratutitous violence daily on their computers. They literally kill people by the thousand evey week. In contrast to hunting, there is no real appreciation of what causing the death of fellow animal is really like. They have habitauted themselves to have absolutely no emotional or physical investment nor ownership of an ultimate act.
Combine that with the fact that have essentially zero parent involvement in their lives. They are being raised by the internet, TV, and social media.
I woulds suggest that we are currently raing a generation of souless quasi-serial killers.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Oct 22, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
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Who knows why these shootings happen, but it's worth keeping in mind that overall rates of violent crime (including gun crime) is significantly down over a 20 year stretch.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide
My intuition would be the same as a lot of posters--these school shootings are somehow related to bad/absent parents, video games, modern culture, etc.
But that intuition seems wrong in the face of overall declining gun crime. Maybe it's just some weird copycat phenomenon--couple of whack jobs did it (Columbine) and got lots of press, now every marginalized/bullied kid who's also a bit off at least thinks about it.
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Trusty Rusty
climber
Tahoe Area
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Oct 22, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
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What has Changed? Everything.
Entertainment & media, family/social values, economics of violence, status of classes & races, firearm trade, lines at the base of El Cap. . everything has changed since then.
It's an endless dispute, energy sewer. The effluence of opinion and debate continues, imbeciles, scholars, puppet politicians, clergy and stoners. What's supposed to be protection of the innocent is a political sausage fest, fukng power game. Streets are more violent, senseless killings increase, economic injustice and global economics flourish. Answer to the Gun Problem? Our government's negligently working on it overtime, it's called total economic collapse and emergent chaos. . . that should resolve the so-called gun problem.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 22, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
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Simple.....total ban and confiscation of all weapons with the exception of single barrel 410 shotguns.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 22, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
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Lynne,
I agree on the "put them on a rope" outside, but only for the ones who pull the damn triggers.
They have rules in the HOMELAND about security.
THEY need to respond to this and soon.
I say bring back the damn noose and the gallows for these persons who kill in schools, which should be sacred ground, not shooting galleries.
Call it Old West, but it tends "to be a safe and effective mentifrice, when used in a conscientiously applied program of saving human lives," approved and recommended by myself and probably Ron A., who knows and respects firearms and human life.
I hadn't heard of this shooting until I saw it here on the Taco.
Bad Day at Black Rock?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 22, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
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Simple.....total ban and confiscation of all weapons with the exception of single barrel 410 shotguns.
That first word, "simple..." Nothing is simple.
In this case you have parents who let their kid get their gun. Notice I did not say "a" gun. That lets them off the hook in a way.
They've got a kid who is a lunatic and they let him get their gun. And so your "simple" solution is to ban all guns except, and I cannot figure your choice for the life of me, a weapon which can dispense a slug just under 1/2 inch in diameter and can be reloaded quickly.
Did I just get trolled?
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Nemesis
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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Stupid idea. Cheaper to train and arm volunteer professors.
And this is the dumbest comment I have seen in a while:
Simple.....total ban and confiscation of all weapons with the exception of single barrel 410 shotguns.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
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And these school shootings were unheard of. WHAT has changed?
Open your eyes, many things.
What has changed? Boys now commit and watch pervasive, gratutitous violence daily on their computers. They literally kill people by the thousand evey week. In contrast to hunting, there is no real appreciation of what causing the death of fellow animal is really like. They have habitauted themselves to have absolutely no emotional or physical investment nor ownership of an ultimate act.
While I believe that video games are just a convenient scapegoat for the gun makers to vilify, I whole-heartedly agree with the hunting point, by the time I was 5 years old, I'd seen and smelled what a gun did do an animal.
I also disagree that guns are less readily available. Automatic weapons were effectively restricted decades before you were born, your childhood memory is incorrect. Sales of both handguns and long guns have increased steadily over decades, that's logical enough with population growth, but population growth isn't in rural areas where hunting is the purpose.
Owning a gun isn't just a constitutional right, it's a serious responsibility that almost all gun owners take far too lightly. On the bright side, thanks in part to Ted Cruz and his fellow maniacs, this will change soon.
TE
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
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Uh, Mouse I meant to put them on the end of a Climbing rope, Dude, not a noose. Climbing and the outdoors teaches youngun's respect for life and the planet. Lynne**
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
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More unrestricted guns will definitely reduce the people problem, unfortunately.
When some disturbed person wants to blow kids to bits, guns sure make it easy for them. There is no doubt about that. I guess the only answer is the threat of more violence. Our society is devolving ;-(
Ah the age old question. And was addressed afterwards, kids are more violent. WHy?
Because of more guns, more drug use (legal presicp/illegal), more gang-banger bloviating, or because too many people like myself like having guns to defend myself from these little cowards.
They are getting too bold, just walking up and shooting people. The Boston bombers found a way to kill, so will these little punks, they usually just walk up and beat you dead, if you're not carrying.
And am I racist to point out that there seems to be a trend of BLACK YOUTHS killing white people? Or is it just a statistical fact that's ignored?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:32am PT
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When I joined the NRA over fifty years ago their magazine might have as a cover a beautiful Parker shotgun on a nest of autumn leaves. Fast forward to current times, with a nasty AR-15 on that same bed of autumn leaves. Look inside. Ads showing hunters wearing camo and boonie caps, even occasionally dark smudges on faces, carrying assault-type flashlights and weapons (not firearms). We live in an increasingly militarized nation, with many Special Ops wanna-be's, including lots of law enforcement. And then Bill O'reilly has as a special guest the SEAL sniper who wrote a best seller and became a national hero. I'm not criticizing the late gentleman - he saved many American lives and we should be thankful for his bravery and skills. But it's all part of an emerging picture of America that makes me uneasy.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:39am PT
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It's also interesting that per capita gun ownership in America has been decreasing for some time but overall firearm sales are increasing. The only logical conclusion is that gun nuts are amassing ever greater stockpiles of weapons.
Curt
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:00am PT
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An interesting twist in this discussion may be the findings of this author-
The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined -Steven Pinker
According to Pinker, violence has declined, not increased over the last few hundred years. I heard him speak on the radio - I haven't read the book yet, but it sounds interesting. Murder in early United States apparently was much more frequent on a percentage basis than today, reductions nowadays mostly as a result of law enforcement and more civility. Governments, kings and such, were responsible for daily hangings and horrible violence. I think I heard him say 15% of people in tribal societies met violent death.
I think he sets aside mass deaths achieved in mechanized war of 20th Century.
One thing he notes is that we hear about most violence in the news- much violence would not even be reported a hundred years ago.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:11am PT
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Fully automatic weapons became more "restricted" in the 1930's via a federal tax. In other words, they merely became more expensive and required more paperwork. They are still completely legal in many states, including West Virginia. I have friends and family that own automatic weapons and other "NFA" firearms. Their use in crimes in the modern world approaches zero.
In many states today, and in even more places in the past, one can walk in, wait around for the federal background check, and walk out with as many firearms as you can afford. Interestingly, most of these states have lower than average gun violence. Conversely, many places with highly restrictive gun laws like Chicago and Oakland have extremely high gun violence.
How should we interpret these negative correlations?
Blaming gun manufacturers for the behavior of those that purchase these tools defies any logic. Alcohol producers are not liable for what occurs when people drink to excess. Big Tobacco? Car Industry? All of these products result in more deaths than those "caused" by guns by orders of magnitude. If reducing death is the prime directive, alcohol, tobacco, and animal protein should logically be banned or at least severely regulated.
As I mentioned up-thread, I grew up in a region saturated with firearms, white-trash racists, and radicalized, pissed-off young black men. These folks fought like badgers, rioted, and blew up the local college gym in the name of racial hatred. Despite all of that, they never went out to their trucks and turned readily available guns against each other.
What has changed? The mindset of teenage males. What has occurred that causes them to overreact and murder people over being "bullied" or marginalized (and what adolescent male in the history of the world has never felt bullied or marginalized?)?
1) A lack of substantive interaction with strong adult personalities who
could teach them how to deal with their feels and how to become a man.
2) Thousands of hours of committing extreme violence and causing thousands of virtual death that has absolutely zero emotional cost or commitment. "First-person shooter" video games are the emotional equivalent of the simulators used to train pilots. No sane child could kill so many real animals "for fun".
Beating a Dead Horse. I am done.
Not quite. If all children had experiences and a parent like this:
http://vocr.sri.com/herson/climbing/tr/ebec.html,
it would not matter how many guns and how much ammo they had access to.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
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And these school shootings were unheard of. WHAT has changed?
Population density. Violent crime rates correlate with population density. Easy access to guns results in more serious consequences from violent crime.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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Ron, wtf man. Seriously.. PLEASE pull your head out of your ass and learn to read.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Cabelas in Nevada can't / won't sell you any guns if you're a California resident, Mr Milktosat. You can only legally buy a gun in your state of residence.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
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You're right, Mr Anderson.
You can buy the gun in Nevada, but you won't be able to take it home with you. You'll have to take delivery of it at your local gun shop, after being shipped from Nevada to California. Subject to all California waiting periods, background checks, legal specs, etc.
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dhayan
climber
los angeles, ca
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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i bet the gun companies are the same companies making the bulletproof white boards...
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
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Close all schools. That will fix the problem.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
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And am I racist to point out that there seems to be a trend of BLACK YOUTHS killing white people?
Yes.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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The problem can't be with the guns, as guns don't shoot people by themselves (Usually!!! LOL!)...
Yeah, and the meth problem can't be blamed on the drug, as meth doesn't smoke itself.
But now, we take on other countries low life
ah yes, NOW we take them on... a convenient answer designed to fit into the mental void possessed by all right leaning uneducated wannabe tea bag sniffers.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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It's NOT the drug itself that makes a person CHOOSE that path...
Not true. If meth had undesirable effects on people they would not choose that path. The drug absolutely influences the choice. Obviously it also requires the participant.
Guns have the property of making violent impulses easier to express. They absolutely influence certain people's choices to commit heinous crimes.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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Jesus.
And if meth didn't have the properties so many find appealing, nobody would choose to continue down that path.
And if guns didn't make it infinitely easier to kill people, nobody would choose guns as their tool of destruction.
Sure, people will get addicted to substances... or snap and have violent episodes. Would you rather they have easy access to coffee and weed, or meth and heroin? Would you rather they swing their fists or a baseball bat or a pipe, or spray bullets into a crowd with an AR-15?
Saying guns aren't the problem because there will always be people who choose to commit violent crimes is ridiculous. Easy access to guns is precisely why there are so many firearm deaths in this country. It ain't rocket science.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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Gun control is desperately needed. Only the NRA lobby and the bought and paid for politicians keep it from happening when the vast majority of American support it.
My wife is a teacher, so these stories hit close to home.
I really don't care about your right to carry a gun when my family is endangered by it in my opinion.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Ron, your fantasy world(s) are obnoxious to say the least. Guns aren't going to be made illegal overnight. How about you try reality for a change?
Currently background checks take about 30 seconds. Don't you think we could do a bit better? Maybe check mental health records? Local LEO reports? The technology exists. I KNOW we can do better.
Currently you can buy 1 new gun a month. The vast majority of guns used in crimes come from straw purchases, likely from folks who buy 1 gun a month. Honestly, who the fuk needs to buy 1 gun a month? I don't know anyone who buys more than 1 gun about every 5 years.
Stop playing your fantasy game of slippery slope strawman tea bagger and start finding some middle ground. Learn to make compromises for other members of society... god knows we all make compromises for you and your kind.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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ah yes, because growing up in the 60's is just like growing up today. So there isn't a gun problem... the problem is with the Rx drugs? Right! How many people are murdered with Ritalin each year?
I've known plenty of crazy fukers in my life. I guarantee easy access to guns makes them far more dangerous, regardless of guns.
It may take you and your fellow geniuses 45 min to fill out the paper work, but it only takes 30 sec to do the actual background check.
The FFLs will provide the descriptive information requested on the ATF Form 4473, which is required by law to be completed and signed by every prospective firearm transferee. The FFL will receive a response that the transfer may proceed or is delayed. This response is typically provided within 30 seconds.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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ahhhh, poor Ronny has to wait 45 min to get his new killing machine. Poor baby... cry me a fuking river. Better yet, cry it for the parents of the victims.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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I think it's ten days in California. Which is nine days, twenty-three hours, fifty-nine minutes and thirty seconds longer than necessary.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
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Yeah, 10 days is WAY too long, according to gun nuts who need their penis extensions on a whim.
Sh#t, it takes me longer than that to get a lumber delivery from Lowe's.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
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Ron, you would bitch & complain if the process took 30 seconds. You know goddam well that's the case...you'd rant & foam about it in a typical Repugnut way, just like most every other political issue.
You, and the rest of the gun-nutz, want to be able to do anything you want, anywhere, anytime, no matter who it might affect. And if someone complains or imposes on this, you barf out memes like 'don't tread on me'.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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I can't wait until most gun ownership is criminal. I'll vote for it, and tell people to vote for that. Make it like it is Canada or Australia. People get along just fine without them there and don't listen to these stupid arguments about how it would be safer if they were legal. No, it isn't safer.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
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Jesus Ron, you really do have a problem with reading comprehension, don't you?
I never said "you can go get a gun in NV, wait 30 seconds for approval and load-er up and haul it back to CA and be back at the house in 3 hours ready to do some damage.."
I said the actual background check takes 30 seconds. I don't give a fuk about how long you have to wait, I'm talking about THE ACTUAL BACKGROUND CHECK... you know, where they ACTUALLY CHECK YOUR BACKGROUND. My point is, there is a lot more that should be checked and 30 seconds is a pathetically short amount of time to determine if someone should be allowed to purchase a firearm.
Jesus fuk man. I suspect you spend too much time arguing with your stuffed animals and convince yourself you are right because you usually win.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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right, because they are incapable of understanding what is actually being checked or how it takes to actually do the check... they just KNOW it does no good, KNOW any improvements would be useless, and KNOW they oppose it. I bet they KNOW climate change is a hoax and Obama is a foreign born Muslim too.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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I think Wes made very logical point regarding facilitation. The easier you make something, the more likely it is to occur. Seems obvious, but it keeps getting trumped by the "it will happen anyway argument".
It is a people problem. But until we fix it should we just maintain the status quo and watch people die?
I accept gun ownership, but it is just too easy for wacko's to get their hands on something that was pretty much designed to take life. If making it harder saves someone's child or anyone else, I say it is worth whatever inconvenient comes with it. I think all the arm waving about people trying to take everyone's gun's away is a paranoid delusion that the NRA and gun manufacturers perpetuate at every opportunity to pump up sales. So sad that so many are so easily manipulated.
Say what you want about gun control not making any difference, I don't buy it. It has nothing to do with anyone's right to bare arms, or arm bears, it just makes sense.
BTW - The arms manufacturers plan is working perfectly. I went to get pellets for my single shot varmint rifle and heard people bitching about all the .22 rounds being sold out all the time. Hoarding going on.
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jstan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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Here is something that is not all about Ron.
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/facebook-removes-beheading-video-updates-violent-images-standards-8C11447618
Facebook removes beheading video, updates violent images standards
Alexei Oreskovic Reuters
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Facebook Inc removed a video of a woman being beheaded from its website on Tuesday and said it would use a broader set of criteria to determine when gory videos are permitted on the site.
The move came a day after a public outcry over news reports that Facebook, the world's No. 1 social network with 1.15 billion members, had lifted a temporary ban on images of graphic violence.
Facebook said on Monday that gory videos, such as a video of a masked man beheading a woman in Mexico, are permitted on its site so long as the content is posted in a manner intended for its users to "condemn" the acts rather than celebrate them.
But Facebook said on Tuesday that it had decided to "strengthen" its enforcement of the policy.
"When we review content that is reported to us, we will take a more holistic look at the context surrounding a violent image or video," Facebook said in a statement.
"Second, we will consider whether the person posting the content is sharing it responsibly, such as accompanying the video or image with a warning and sharing it with an age-appropriate audience," Facebook said.
The change underscores a challenge for Facebook as it seeks to position itself as the go-to online destination where people share up-to-the-minute images and discuss breaking news events.
While Facebook polices its site to remove pornography, hate speech and other forbidden content, the company must also make a judgment about when certain grizzly images, such as video of a terrorist attack, are in the public interest versus being shared for "sadistic pleasure."
Facebook acknowledged on Tuesday that its previous approach, which permitted the video of the woman's killing in Mexico to remain on its site, was flawed.
"Based on these enhanced standards, we have re-examined recent reports of graphic content and have concluded that this content improperly and irresponsibly glorifies violence. For this reason, we have removed it," the company said. conditionsNewsletterPrivacy policyAdvertise
Edit:
The answer is to give Ron only the attention he has earned.
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jstan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
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Ron:
How you feel about anything, how I feel about anything merits another's attention only when the reasons we have these feelings are given. Without those reasons all we are talking about is some action potentials that have occurred in some brain. A couple of millivolts. Next to nothing.
The regularity with which you cause posters on all threads to expend their valuable time reacting to you personally, says you suffer from an overweening need for attention. I am sorry you suffer from this. Have you considered discussing how it is you have come to this state? There are people on this site with an immense diversity of experience and high professional credentials.
Given the chance, we might just be able to help you.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 23, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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Jew without a gun
http://www.seraphicpress.com/jew-without-a-gun/
Part of what he says: "I’m reposting this series as a cautionary tale because the Sandy Hook Elementary School Massacre has sharpened the claws of the statist utopians, whose ultimate aim is to disarm law-abiding American citizens. Just as Obamacare has nothing to do with health, and cap and trade has nothing to do with so-called global warming, anti-gun laws have nothing to do with saving children’s lives. It’s just another opportunity for the left to centralize power........."
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 23, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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hey, cockmaster, thanks for posting up some of the most ridiculously uninformed fear mongering bullshit the world has ever known. We wouldn't expect anything less from you.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 23, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
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I am removing the single shot 410 shotgun from the mix. All weapons need to be confiscated, An expert user like Ron could do a lot of damage with a 410. Ron, i'l be over at noon tomorrow to confiscate your arsenal.....will a pickup truck do?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 23, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
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Interesting discourse. Here's another from the "Jew without a gun" blog: "If you outlaw weapons, as so many squishy liberals yearn to do — well then, only the state and the outlaws will be armed. Which leaves ordinary citizens at the mercy of an all-powerful government and a variety of merciless criminal subcultures."
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Oct 23, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
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. . . but facebook s*cks
You're way too polite, Ron. I despise FB.
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Trusty Rusty
climber
Tahoe Area
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Oct 23, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
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Answer to the gun problem? . . . get a bigger one.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 23, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
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Ugh! I had to see that, and just before dinner.
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TREED
Trad climber
Gunks
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Oct 23, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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Profits baby.
We have sold our soul for them.
Everywhere. Gun industry. Drug industry. Entertainment industry. Hell, we start wars to maintain our economic dominance.
Screw right and wrong. We are making billions. This is WAY bigger than the tobacco industry and we can't crush that.
What would happen if a 1980s kid had come home with Grand Theft Auto 5? Or was caught playing Killzone?
There is a reason the concept of Hell was created. Nobody buys it anymore. Me neither. Too bad.
Answer?
The culture needs to change. The "right" to bear arms needs to go away. You should have to earn that. Prove your competence. Be held responsible for your weapons. Joe American is too stupid to have guns and no morals.
Maybe in 50 years things will be better if change begins now.
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Nemesis
climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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So much idiocy here. People posting on emotions and not facts or common sense. PYHOOYA's.
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Nemesis
climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
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In a vast majority of all these shootings, there is a common thread: The bad guy is the only guy with the gun.
jgill, I am curious how the information in your post equates to a psycho shooting up a school.
donini, exactly how do you propose the "simple" plan of confiscating ALL guns and guaranteeing that ALL of them have indeed been gathered?
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jstan
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
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For your consideration,
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/10/14_year_old_charged_as_adult_in_murder_of_danvers_teacher
14-year-old charged as adult in murder of Danvers teacher
102313ritzer02a.jpg
Colleen Ritzer, 24 yr. old math teacher at Danvers High School (Courtesy photo)
Wednesday, October 23,
By:
Antonio Planas, Fiona Molloy, Joe Dwinell, Jack Encarnacao and John Zaremba
A beloved Danvers High math teacher was found murdered in the woods near the school and a 14-year-old is charged as an adult in the slaying.
The news comes after Danvers public schools were closed down as police investigated the slaying of teacher Colleen Ritzer, District Attorney Jonathan Blodgett said today.
"She was a very, very respected, loved teacher. At 24 years of age ... it's a terrible tragedy for the entire Danvers community," said Blodgett, adding "there is no reason to believe other suspects are involved."
Danvers High freshman Philip Chism pleaded not guilty at his arraignment in Salem District Court today. He was held without bail and the judge approved his defense lawyer's motion for a mental evaluation. Chism's next court date is Nov. 22. His mother was in the courtroom as her lanky son quietly appeared before a judge.
A police report states Chism “assaulted and subsequently murdered Colleen Ritzer and disposed of her body near the high school grounds.” Police state they also have surveillance footage of Chism and evidence that was found at “multiple
scenes at the Danvers High School and surrounding wooded area."
The police report also states "Ritzer and the juvenile are known to each other from the school" and charges came after they spoke to Chism during an interrogation.
The case took a dramatic turn when the teen was found wandering north on the southbound side of Route 1 at 12:30 a.m. today in Topsfield, the DA said. Local police earlier yesterday put out a bulletin asking for the public's help in finding Chism. Police added Chism had recently moved to town from Tennessee.
The DA said they also received a missing persons report an hour earlier for the teacher who had not come home from school and wasn't answering her cell phone. She was later found dead in the woods near the high school. The DA said police also found blood in a second-floor bathroom at the high school when they went looking for the teacher at 11:20 p.m. yesterday.
The DA would not say how the teacher was killed. They have yet to divulge any evidence linking the teen to the murder.
Police said Chism was last seen about 6 p.m. Tuesday at the Hollywood Hits movie theater in Danvers. Theater manager Scott Przybcien told the Herald that Chism saw the 4:30 p.m. screening of the Woody Allen film “Blue Jasmine.”
“All we know is, he bought a ticket, saw a movie and left. It was a fairly busy day. He blended right in,” Przybcien said. “I think he just was wandering, looking for a place to hide. A movie theater is a perfect place for that. That’s what we do for a living -- forget about life for two hours.”
A high school student told the Herald today the school superintendent alerted families via a robo telephone call earlier this morning that school was canceled due to "an ongoing investigation."
"It's just terrifying," said Danvers High senior Kendall Meehan, 17. "Nothing like this ever happens in Danvers."
Mary Duffy, who lives next door to the Ritzer family in Andover, said she knew Colleen basically her whole life.
"If every family had a daughter like Colleen Ritzer, it would be a wonderful world.
"She always wanted to teach math. Her mother, I believe, is probably a math whiz," Duffy told the Herald. "She was a quiet, pleasant girl with many friends. She was just like the ideal daughter. She is. This family is a family of America, They are the ideal family, they are friendly, they are loving, close."
The 24-year-old Ritzer often used Twitter to stay in touch with her students, last tweeting two days ago geometry homework links. She also wrote on her profile: "Math teacher often too excited about the topics I'm teaching." She also shared personal thoughts, tweeting she loved the fall, coffee, ice cream and the movie "Home Alone." She would send out uplifting messages, including "find something good in every day :)."
She also offered her students emotional help after the Boston Marathon bombings tweeting: "This world is a crazy place. Love who you love and live every day. Thoughts and prayers to those affected at the Boston Marathon."
Christian Veatch, 17, a senior, was in Ritzer’s math class last year.
“She’d just joke around. I loved her class,” said Veatch. “I hate math ... But she made it fun.”
He said one day she noticed he was having a bad day, and pulled him out into the hall and talked him through it.
“We ended up talking out in the hall for like 20 minutes. I walked in the class feeling a lot better, more happy. I was ready to do my work. In 20 minutes, she totally changed my attitude. It was amazing.”
The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner is conducting an autopsy to determine cause and manner of death, the DA added tonight.
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MarkGrubb
climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
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Kid kills a beautiful motivating young woman and heads off to see a movie.....
Do you really want to blame such savagery on inanimate objects? Ban guns, knifes, box cutters, airliners and fists. These kids will then use gasoline, clubs, and cars.
Nothing to do with the machine.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 24, 2013 - 12:22am PT
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In spite of everything we think we have achieved, we are still animals.
Are we not men?
We are Devo.....
Stupid Humans. Making a sh*t load of stuff but not getting anywhere.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 24, 2013 - 02:12am PT
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Nice to know I can predict the majority of arguments and responses in a gun thread before I ever even click on it. Most of the time I can guess who's saying what.
Any of you geniuses ever consider that the areas with the most restrictive gun laws have basically enacted them in reaction to what they consider to be unacceptable levels of gun violence? Doesn't look to me like it's working. And I'd bet it has more to do with the demographics and poverty rate in those areas than it does with what kind of weapons they own. They probably do more drugs too.
It's always reactive, virtually always ineffective... like putting a bandaid on a cut to try and cure the infection it caused in the bloodstream.
Blah blah blah predictable blah snarky response blah blah insult blah arrogant retort blah blah blah real fact blah denial blah anecdotal evidence blah dismissal more insults etc
Have fun with it. Hell, go play a video game. It's only simulated.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 24, 2013 - 02:17am PT
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and hey.. here's another question:
HOw many anti-gunners are willing to sack up and admit they won't be satisfied until all the guns are gone?
'cause ya know, that point of view just validates the "gun nut's" fears...
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 24, 2013 - 07:57am PT
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You can't wait 45 minutes? The first gun I bought took me three months to complete the paperwork, for a .22 Remington pump action. I'm sure it's pure co-incidence that in a country of five million people, there were less than ten gun murders each year. Find the most rural, lowest population density region in the US you can, I bet it won't have a lower rate.
Te
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 24, 2013 - 10:48am PT
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In a vast majority of all these shootings, there is a common thread: The bad guy is the only guy with the gun.
But in some cases the bad guy was NOT the only one with a gun. The expert sniper at the shooting range, Giffords shooting, Sandyhook, the mall shooting in Seattle. The "good guys" with the guns didn't stop the tragedies from happening.
The only absolute, 100% undeniable constant in every single one of these shootings: the bad guy had a gun.
And no sane person can argue it was difficult for them to acquire that gun... because you know it ain't. They are everywhere. You can buy one off the streets EASY (just ask Chaz). The majority of guns on the streets come from straw purchases... because it is SOOOO FUKING EASY TO DO.
Anyone who can't see that is an idiot... most likely an idiot who loves guns enough to ignore the facts.
I have guns, I like guns... but wake the fuk up... guns are just too fuking easy to get ahold of... there are just too many fuking guns in this country.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 24, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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For myself, I trust all of you more than any politician. Why should politicians, who's goal in life is to gain control and power, have the guns but not any of you? Why should they have even more control over us? The Mexican government passed strict gun laws in Mexico and now gun violence is off the charts as they got them out of the honest folks hands, and currently the biggest criminals are the police and Guardia National. Gun violence and kidnappings are rampant in Mexico. Somehow the criminals find ways to get them, currently they smuggle them in form the US but tomorrow they could just as easily get them from any number of other places.
Yet when you cross the border from Mexico into Texas where guns are common in the hands of citizens, there is significantly less gun violence.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 24, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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Why should politicians, who's goal in life is to gain control and power, have the guns but not any of you?
Ain't going to happen. Wake up idiot.
And comparing Texas to Mexico, assuming gun ownership is what makes the difference? Christ you people are fuking dumb.
HOw many anti-gunners are willing to sack up and admit they won't be satisfied until all the guns are gone?
jonnyrig, I'm guessing there are an approximately equal number of those who want all guns gone and those who amass guns because they fear they will have to defend themselves against a tyrannical government invasion. Both sides are fuking whack jobs. Why play their game? You and I both know it is far too easy for violent jack asses to get a hold of guns and something needs to be done about that. Fuk the extremists on both sides... we can do better.
'cause ya know, that point of view just validates the "gun nut's" fears...
Really? Validates gun nut's fears? My impression is that gun nut's fears are along the lines that the government is going to take all our guns and force us to live in some kind of tyrannical socialist dystopia. Again... why play their game? It ain't going to happen. It is fuking ridiculous.
How many gun nuts are willing to sack up and admit they think Alex Jones has a valid point?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 24, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
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Hmm- interesting. Most folks i,ve talkf to have been stocking up simply because they,re afraid the guns will be outlawed and thus unavailable soon. Ammo, however, they seem to think is being hoarded by the govt. Although, as with all supply and demand, its also currently hard to find because of private hoarding.
I,ve asked before and gotten almost no response- exactly where is that line the govt must cross that justifies defending oneself from tyrany by shooting at the govt? People think its a dumb question, but if thats your excuse for owning a firearm, or even any factor in it, then you better dam well be able to answer that question.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Oct 24, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
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moar gunz is the answer, duh? it worked pretty well here:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/09/two-michigan-drivers-shoot-and-kill-each-other-after-road-rage-incident/
Two Michigan drivers shot and killed each other Wednesday night after a road rage incident took a fatal turn in a drive-in car wash parking lot, police said.
Robert Taylor, 56, and James Pullum, 43, were driving on a highway in Ionia, Mich., when Taylor began to closely follow Pullum, according to the Ionia Public Safety Department, based on witness reports.
The two drivers eventually pulled into the parking lot of Wonder Wand Car Wash, at the intersection of M-66 highway and Steele Street. where they got out of their vehicles and fired shots at each other, police said. The two men exchanged a total of eight to nine shots, police said.
Pullum’s mother and wife were both passengers in the Ford Taurus at the time of the incident, while Taylor, driving a Chrysler PT Cruiser, was alone, police said. No one else was injured.
The drivers were transported to Sparrow Ionia Hospital, where they were pronounced dead shortly after 7 p.m. local time, authorities said.
Police told ABC News that they cannot release information about who fired their weapon first.
Taylor had a misdemeanor conviction in 2006 for driving while intoxicated and separately for carrying a gun in the car, Ionia County Prosecutor Robert Schafer told ABC News. As a result, his concealed weapons license was revoked for three years. He eventually applied and received a new license four years later in 2010, Schafer said.
Michael Wood, the owner of the Wonder Wand Car Wash, told ABC News that he also has a concealed license permit, just like the two drivers did, but never carries a gun with him.
“It’s the strangest situation I’ve ever heard of,” Wood said. “We’ve all had altercations in road rage, but to pull a weapon?”
Wood said he knew both Taylor and Pullum and that both were well-liked in the community. In fact, an employees at his car wash was best friends with Pullum, Wood said.
The confirmed cause of death was indeed gunshot wounds, said the Ionia Public Safety Department, which is waiting for toxicology and autopsy reports to see if alcohol or drugs were involved.
Taylor’s family could not be reached for comment. A woman at Pullum’s residence said the family is not making any statements at this time.
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dirtbag
climber
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Guns and Ammo editorial stirs the pot:
"Way too many gun owners still seem to believe that any regulation of the right to keep and bear arms is an infringement," contributing editor Dick Metcalf wrote in a column titled "Let's Talk Limits." "The fact is, all constitutional rights are regulated, always have been, and need to be."
http://news.yahoo.com/guns-ammo-editorial-controversy-203042117.html
I would post an excerpt from the column but it is a pdf download.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Coming up on the 75th anniversary of Kristallnacht.
Author Stephen P. Halbrook has spent years researching the Weimar Republic and has recently unearthed documents that leave no doubt that gun confiscation was a lynchpin in Hitler's plan to control not only the Jews, but the entire civilian populace as well. Registration was key.
It is always the same. The rationale is appealing.
"We can make a safer world."
Ya, right.
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N/@
Trad climber
NM
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^safer for who is the question.
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N/@
Trad climber
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^Ron for president You want to make people responsible for their actions and not blame objects. This would be a step to actually help the problem not just feel good for doing something even if it does not work.
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dirtbag
climber
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Anyway, we all know that guns don't kill people, God kills people.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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In all sincerity, sometimes i feel like local LEOs just watch the gang activities to "tally" for more funding.
True dat. It is called job security. Part of the Legal/Security industry.
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N/@
Trad climber
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I have to strongly disagree with Ron and reilly, Every time a officer or productive citizen shoots one of the gang bangers I see pictures of them as children and am told they were such good people. I never see there gang pictures and hear about there criminal record. From what the media tells me we need more gangs not less (sips more koolaid........) This is probably bushes fault.
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manemachen
Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
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If kids had guardians that would spend time with them instead of plunking them down in front of televisions or video games for the first 15 years of their lives, maybe they wouldn't be so angry and violent.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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A couple questions:
Are there any studies that show most shooters had bad parents? Yet you seem pretty convinced the problem stems from bad parenting.
Are there any studies that show most shooters had guns? Yet you seem pretty convinced restricting gun access will do nothing.
What do you expect from a population spawned by greed-fueled religious idiots?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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FACT: statistics prove the vast majority of gang shooters are atheists(1). We need compulsory church attendence.
(1) IMTSU (I made this sh#t up)
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