Tree Incident and Environmental Responsibility

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HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 21, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Unfortunately the original thread appears to have disappeared. It's now on couchmaster's "people who delete threads" thread.

Why unfortunately? Because I have what I consider a constructive comment.
Yes, that thread had gone far enough in trashing, thrashing and creating its own mayhem.
I'm not going to restate the original issue nor name names.
I'm not even going to question whether the offered apology was "sincere".

However, my last post had mentioned that the climbing community should learn from this.
    There are a lot of new climbers who come straight from the gym to the outdoors, climbing at a high level. I've even climbed with a few. To some of them, the climbing environment is their first exposure to real outdoor freedom and responsibility.
    Being an Old Timer, I've specifically tried to help them out with "good citizenship" in the mountains, as well as how to set a real anchor so they don't drop us in the talus!
    I realized last night that trashing a sponsored climber's professional reputation is a serious matter. Even when it could be called justified.

So how to deal constructively with this problem?

I think the relevant sponsors should also see this as a "teaching moment". How? They could get together with the Access Fund and AAC Conservation and create a "good citizenship in the mountains" brochure. Print a large number of copies. Distribute it to climbing gyms and climbing retail shops (the few that remain). Print enough copies that people can take it home with them, not just a poster stuck in a corner wall.
And perhaps most importantly, require their sponsored climbers to post it on their home pages and Facebook pages.

topics for the brochure?
tree cutting - how old ARE these things and how long will it take for a new one to grow?
trail cutting,
scrubbing,
route "ownership",
rock trundling (whoo boy, talk about a contentious issue)
shitt**ing in the woods,
Bolt placement ethics.
Responsibility for self: accident avoidance.
USFS and NPS regulations.
and most importantly: personal responsibility. Think thrice before altering the environment/locale.

Ideas? Comments?

oh, and of course, any $$ they donate to the Access Fund or AAC Conservation would be tax deductible.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Adopt a Crag and TeamWorks

http://www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5000897/k.F204/TeamWorks.htm
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Nice idea High Traverse. Having been a part of the Outdoor Industry for many years i can say that outdoor companies all preach respect for the environment and outdoor stewardship. They also are united in trying to get young people (future long term customers) into the outdoors, doing the outdoor pursuits that they build products for. This is why these companies sponsor young climbers.
I said preach....but often words don't lead to action. Not all young climbers come with an awe and respect for the natural world....nothing natural about a climbing gym. It's the responsibility of sponsors to inform their "athletes"" about the environmental and stewardship aspect of the companies "brand." It makes no good business sense to do otherwise.
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
The main reason for getting this out in the open is to educate people about rare ancient trees so it doesn't happen again. Is there something wrong with that? It turns a negative event into a positive event.
Whether he was malicious or just ignorant is irrelavent to me.The only thing that matters to me is that this sort of thing does not happen again with trees of special value such as these junipers.By hiding or minimizing this event to protect the reputations of the individual or the climbing community as a whole is a opportunity lost to bring light on the subject and prevent further (accidents) like this from happenning.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Jim, I wonder if Lama's knuckles have recovered from Red Bull's rapping of them.

It is true that the fox, in theory, has a vested interest in not over-harvesting the chicken coop.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
This event should be timely, then.

http://www.accessfund.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5000939&ct=13228451

Curt
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
These are great, timely issues that are completely relevant.

AF has recognized these needs- in particular, years ago they started an educational program targeted at the burgeoning bouldering community. This group, in particular, matches your description most directly: young, inexperienced, where the group/social experience of climbing is a great priority....and much less connected to the environmental element of the experience. AF generated a number of materials attempting to address & educate towards this.

Even amongst new climbers who have interests other than bouldering, this need for education & connection to the environment is a great priority.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Thanks for starting this thread, HT, and for taking the high road in doing so. I think the contention and bitterness this incident engendered shows how important we find the relevant issues.

John
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Part of the education should be the recognition that the climber does not own the land. They are a guest and thus need to understand how to conduct themselves so that we are all welcome guests. We are just one of many groups that are guests on public lands and private lands.

Guest is a different perspective form route developer, elite climber, ....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
How about,, some dinosaurs hold a localized meeting at a local crag, in which you could explain the environments we are part of. Not some pasteurized brochure, but words and thoughts shown at location. Ive thought about that for things like reading the rock and the use of runners on pro etc etc.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Trundling is a very destructive activity and should be discouraged by all climbers.

If you see someone doing it, call them out!
If you do it, stop doing it and think of the consequences.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
This is a very constructive idea and you bring up a good point about these hardman gym climbers not having any outdoor experience or ethics. If they need an education so be it and if the sponsors are the ones paying for these douchbags to go out and cut trees then they should be the ones paying the bills to educate them about the ethics of the sport.
Oldfattradguy2

Trad climber
Here and there
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
This post is like so 10 years ago! I still like it!

A letter to the High Country News in 2003:

Climbers need to police themselves

Letter - From the August 04, 2003 issue by Todd Leeds

Thanks for showing both sides of the climbing-impact issue (HCN, 7/7/03: Invasion of the rock jocks). I am a 41-year-old who has been climbing for over 25 years. Ive done both bolt-free traditional and bolted sport-route first ascents. As much as I would like to deny it, climbers do impact the environment in many adverse ways.

Years ago, there was a general progression that many people followed when they started climbing: In general, people were already enjoying outdoor pursuits, such as hiking and camping, before they started climbing. The love and respect of the outdoor environment was already there. Nowadays, many climbers have had absolutely no outdoor experience before taking that step from the climbing gym to the great outdoors. Many of these people have no concept that they are impacting fragile ecosystems every time they trample a plant, drop a cigarette butt or leave some used toilet paper along an approach trail.

We need to do a better job of policing and educating ourselves and others. Climbing gyms and guide services need to be proactive with this education.

I would also like to applaud HCN for bringing up the guidebook and marketing standpoint. Many fragile areas remain relatively undisturbed for years until somebody comes along and decides its time to promote for a profit. In essence, authors of articles and guides provide the impetus for large-scale impacts for a small personal profit and perhaps some notoriety.

This needs to stop. When nonlocal climbers write guidebooks or articles, they need to step back and ask themselves, Is there a reason why the local residents havent done this? and Are the profits I am receiving justifying the impacts I am creating?

Perhaps guidebook and article authors should start donating profits to mitigate some of their impacts.

Todd Leeds
Salt Lake City, Utah
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Sometimes, creating or maintaining access to climbs involves environmental impact.
For broader access and non-climbing access: roads, tunnels, bridges, trails, gas stations, etc.
For access to specific climbs: unofficial trails, cairns, branch pruning, tree cutting, moss removal, lichen scrubbing, dirt removal, trundling, flake peeling, bolting, slings on trees, soil erosion from traffic at the base of crags, etc. Some of these things are illegal in certain areas.

When is the quality of the climbing worth the impact?
There is no unanimous consensus.
It's a value judgement - some people are OK with heavy impact, some with light impact, some insist on no impact.

Rule #1 of 1: Hide your impacts and don't publicize them.
People do not want to know about the impacts. They just want to climb, and believe the fantasy that the climb was always clean. They don't want the guilt, they don't want to make the value judgement.
Old version: if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is there, does it make a sound?
New version: if somebody does something questionable and there's no photo on twitter or vid on youtube, did it really happen?

Examples:
 Outer Limits was once a munge fest. There was a loose block where a bolt was placed to safely get past it. (Visible in the photo in The Vertical World of Yosemite, p.92). The flake got trundled, the bolt is now gone, and now it's widely considered a classic.
 Mr. Natural took 3 days of work to clean. Now it is one of the best one pitch crack climbs in the Valley.
 Gardening at Night is a route I cleaned in the 80s, on a tier above the Church Bowl. There is an entire pitch of munge just to reach it, and it's a grainy, dirty nothing, that starts nowhere and ends nowhere. Probably not worth the impact, and the moss is probably growing back vigorously....

Of course, when doing a new route or maintaining an existing route, you still have to ask yourself if the quality is worth the impact.
There is no easy answer.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
guidebook ... profits
is an oxymoron. :-)
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
I think we could all use being a better steward for our favorite areas. Those that were the most vehement in the last thread, how many hours did they themselves volunteer at local crags? I don't nearly enough, I can say honestly. It's always a good conversation to have, especially when it comes to educating the younger crowd.

I know we like to think ourselves old school, elitist 'trad dads' but the crowd that learned to climb in the gym (like me!) can turn the corner if there are positive examples and education.

Last night I went to the happies by moonlight (Awesome!!!) and constantly walked by piss puddles right on the trail. WTF? I totally pee in the woods, all the time, but I think there's a difference between going behind a bush or boulder and letting go right in the middle of the trail. Something I hadn't noticed before but I guess when you only climb before 8am or after 7pm you don't see the crowds just their feces...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Credit: pyro
Credit: pyro
was up on the prow a while ago and the top-out sucked cuzz everybody uses a tree to haul. just put some bolts in and let the tree live!
can't help it when the world's best rock climbing area promotes tree hauling.
Juicer

Trad climber
SLC
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
What's up with this group?


https://www.facebook.com/TahoeClimbersCoalition
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:34pm PT

My the 'Witch hunt' continue.

If we catch them in action, and throw them into water and they float...
Do we get to crucify, burn at the stake or at least 'tar and feather' them ?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:40pm PT


Perhaps guidebook and article authors should start donating profits to mitigate some of their impacts.


Yeah, I agree with Clint. Profits, from a guidebook? What planet is that guy from?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
Education in the climbing community is not a well paid endeavor. Guide books don't make profits, access groups are underfunded and so on. Money is made in making & selling gear - so perhaps its there the pressure could be applied.


I did some drawings for the Friends of Indian Creek spelling out "what to do", "what not to do" while camping, hiking & climbing at IC. They were illustrations of rats being good guys and being bad guys. I've heard they were well-received.

I find that using humour or illustrations, you get your point across in a more salient manner.

So if any of you gear manufacturers out there wanna hire me to do a brochure on mountain ethics & manners, I"d be more than pleased to have some fun with this very serious subject.

Cheers, Tami
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Hey all,

Since the original thread was mine and, ultimately, it was about taking responsibility... I just wanted to let you know that I was the one who deleted it. I deleted it because I received a very heartfelt email from a close friend of Ethan's who showed a lot of concern for the negative attention that has come his way over this matter. Ethan wasn't involved in the tree incident and I wanted to get rid of a thread that had a title that implied there might be a connection. However, I'm all for a thread about environmental responsibility. Carry on in those regards.

Cheers!
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
I just laughed at the irony and supposed self importance of climbers related to this thread / discussion. Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning the actions previously discussed, nor am I saying that taking steps to help educate new climbers on environmental responsibility is not a good idea. The context of this thought was while I was reading the other thread on my couch while taking a break from working on my laptop when, no joke, a commercial for the "AXMAN - I CUT DOWN EVERYTHING IN SITE!!!" extreme logging TV show came on. No joke, it was crazy ironic.

Hyper vigilance of such a small percent of the overall population (<<<1%) is kind of like asking me to be more mindful of my monthly budget to prevent any further global economic meltdown. Not asking everyone, but just asking me.

I am not endorsing being apathetic to this issue, just that I think the battle we are facing on this topic is way bigger than most people realize. What I think is more alarming than the unfortunate and misguided act of a few people is the desensitization of the general public to the real value of the outdoors and nature as a whole. Want to see a tree beyond your yard/sub-burb? Make sure you spend $50 on a Action Pass if you want to pull your car over in an national forest. Want to see a National Park? Sock out $50+ for you and your family. Hell the county opened a local OPEN SPACE, aka a field, and slapped a mandatory $15 DAY USE fee on parking the middle of nowhere with a portapotty. $15 to look at a field???? Unfortunately this area is near a low economical / social class part of the town which only guarantees that NONE OF THEM will actually experience what the place has to offer.

When going outside to a Park or Forest is more expensive then taking your family to see a movie, what do you think people will do? When TV glorifies chopping down trees at the fastest rate possible as "cool", what do you think the perspective of the next generation will be?

The fact that some climbers make it out of the gym is a good thing, not something that we need to scorn them about. My guess that fewer and fewer will even bother in the future. I am sure you are thinking, "cool less people impacting my local area.." WRONG. It means less people to actually fight to keep access to local areas at all.

Self Policing climbers on environmental responsibility is a good idea and I am sure will save a few trees that are around the cliffs we climb at. Meanwhile, we as a society will continue to deforest everything in sight and think its cool.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Nice to see a decent discourse starting up. This issue is much bigger than this tree as there are so many nuances, although the tree is part of it of course.

Today was an amazing late fall weather day, rae in our area of the Pacific Northwet. So I did the logical thing and played hookey from work to go for a hike on a trail with the wife and daughter that was illegally put in by outlaws. (this is what happens when you don't preplan and your climbing buddies don't return your calls to do a lap:-) These folks cut a hell of a lot of trees. Lots and lots. Without permission from anyone -on YOUR public land. They did it because they felt it was the right thing to do. It's about 8 miles long and is fully forested. This trail is both the best trail in an area known for outstanding trails, AND now has the forest service's blessing, support and (huge) financial backing. In fact, the FS rework of the trail took it from "great" and made it world class. No question about it. The .gov put in at least one multi-million dollar bridge and several other significant wooden ones (you paid for it if you are a taxpayer of course).

The outlaws who installed this trail without permission cut the holy sh#t out of the forest. One of them was caught, convinced and fined early in the process, but the rest hung on and made a Sistine chapel that is loved and supported by everyone who has hiked it. Everyone. The local environmental and preservation groups were the ones who got the FS on board. Were they (The outlaws) wrong to do this? Yes. Did they do the wrong thing? No.

I'm not saying that Joe Kinder was right to cut this tree. Don't misunderstand. He was wrong to do so. Yet consider that he did see another viewpoint and followed his heart, his heart that though that YOU, or should I say, US, all of us whom would follow: would benefit. Please give that some thought, walk a mile in young Joe's shoes with a lean towards being a bit more charitable and understanding. Thanks for the interesting discussion, there are many viewpoints to this still not discussed, certainly reducing our impacts is something we can all work towards and do a better job with. Hopefully this discussion can remain civil too.

Regards:



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
I can not speak for NY, CT or MA but in VT and NH I do not know any serious new routers or back country skiers who are not handy with a saw and a pair of loppers. Heck I have cut down trees new routing with the help of a state cop.
100 years ago Vermont was sheep country and 80% clear cut. It is amazeing to see the old photos. Hikeing in the woods you come accross stone walls on top of mountains. A reminder that these were open fields once. Now they are full of 70-125ft tall maples, oaks, ash, etc. despite being logged regularly. A birch tree grows to 70ft tall and over a foot in diamiter in about 25 years here. It is a struggle to keep my cabin from getting over grown. Every year you need to trim stuff back. Fields need to be cut every year or they dissapear in a decade.

I like Clint Cummings post. 99% of climbers have absolutly Zero clue how much work went into creating the routes that they play on.
WBraun

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
I don't care how you spin this, but cutting down tree or trees for a stupid personal climb is totally lame.

The whole thought of it is just plain lame.

Leave the tree.

If you fall into it then that's the hazard or just walk away and bail if you can't handle the hazard.

This is my personal opinion.

Oh !!!! but it's the best route ever!!!

Tough sh!t, leave the tree .....

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
I'm not buying the attempts to frame this action as originating with good intentions.

It was a selfish act that hurt a fragile environment and did no service to the climbing community.

Common sense: If there are no consequences, we will continue to see more of the same.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
A birch tree grows to 70ft tall and over a foot in diamiter in about 25 years here.

And out here, where this incident took place, it could take 1,000+ years for a juniper like that. Get it, yet?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
Yet consider that he did see another viewpoint and followed his heart, his heart that though that YOU, or should I say, US, all of us whom would follow: would benefit.

or at least those who can follow 5.14...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
But dude, I can WATCH bamboo grow. Totally same thing right?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
It is a struggle to keep my cabin from getting over grown.
Ditto for my house in the Santa Cruz mtns. Well, not really a struggle, but a significant amount of annual work including felling on average 1 tree every 2 years.

And that's the difference between your boreal forest, my coastal Douglas Fir/Black Oak forest and Juniperis Occidentalis eking out a 1000 years of existence on a barren granite ledge.

Werner. Well said.
MisterE

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
I like the direction of this thread as well.

I agree that the message needs to be delivered in person. A flyer or poster just doesn't have the same impact.

Better yet, delivered by a star of the community. Kids will listen to them.

I also think this message needs to be proactive - drill it into the heads of the kids as much as personal safety. It will stick, it just takes more effort to get the message across when you are not directly in the environment you are talking about (e.g., crag and gym).

Gatherings like the one posted above are great ideas - thanks to the Access Fund for taking the bull by the horns, as well as High Traverse.

Erik
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
I totally get it. just giveing some background on where the kid is comming from. Still think he should have known better but not sure it is worth killing the clueless dude...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
but not sure it is worth killing the clueless dude...
Yes, that's what I meant to say in my first post and why I started this thread.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
totally agree tradman. No way in hell I would be as psyched on finding new boulder problems if I lived back east.
Nemesis

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
I find it ironic that the Access fund fights for access to lots of areas which are closed due to environmental reasons.
Slabdyno

Trad climber
Alb, nm
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
I can't believe dean potter has sh#t to say when this guy is personally responsible for deforesting portions of rmnp. Pot kettle stfu

He chopped a huge tree to try the "end direct " at emerald lake

Dood needs to stfu
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
Rule #1: Don't piss off the land managers

Rule #2: Don't piss off the land managers

Rule #3: Reference Rules # 1 and 2...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
hey there say, all... i am kind of new to all this 'what happened with the tree and route', as to the threads... i barely heard the situation, from a share...

but, since i do love trails and nature and know climbing folks, i reckon i can just share a bit on what i thought--not sure if it does any good, or anything, but it has to do with how we 'DO WHAT WE'VE LEARNED' from when we were young...

well:
what my mom taught us... as, she lived in the woods that they were lucky enough to purchase for their home, when she was growing up... was to have a simple respect...

the key, was always:

don't hurt something that can't grow back...
(meaning some things can be trimmed)...

don't over pick a flower, and make sure enough seeds are left...

AND--make trails were nature routes seem to be, as you walk...

HOWEVER all this was on their OWN PRIVATE property...
(i know national parks, etc, don't allow you do certain things)...

so then:
when she was on public land, i know she taught us to
respect the NO TRESPASSING... and not to disturb something
that might not grow back... (this was along road sides)...
though if there was an abundant of a wild-flower not endangered,
she take a seed or young one home to plant it, as, it was natural
california dirt and it'd grow and produce easy for her...



so, it seems we all pretty DO what we grew up with...
and thus:
we all need to LEARN the RULES and the 'hows and whys' of where-what-ever area, it IS that we hike or climb...

so to me:
THE WHOLE situation, from what i read, is very sad for all...
i sure hope things settle and that some good will come out of all this...



*i am not a climber, but i 'innocently' thought, that when you were climbing, you just CLIMB around stuff... or you just don't go that way...
(kind of like what werner said, but in different words)


you know, like the goats, etc. do ... :)

however, if there IS loose things that are dangerous in a trail, or,
on a climb that is already a route:
i DO understand how folks feel to help the next climber, and clear the
path... ( but i still am just learning all this--but it seems the cautious? thing to do)...



well, happy to see that you are sharing info on all this, IN some helper-ways...

happy to see billygoat make a nice post, too, edit = AS I DID NOT KNOW = did not know who started the other thread, or how it fared... just saw the tail end of it, as it was deleted...
Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
This thread is awesome. Since climbing gyms are popping up like crazy and introducing thousands of people to climbing who don't know much about the outdoors, they should offer free classes teaching people some simple etiquette. It'd be cool if the access fund could develop a short course or some kind of free dvd to pass on to all the gyms too. As well as courses designed to teach people about outdoor climbing. I saw some sketchy stuff in J tree this week and told a group how dangerous they were being and told them some stuff to help them be safer in the future.
Adamame

climber
Santa Cruz
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
This blog post by Haven Livingston is worth a read.
http://wavehaven.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/kinder-kind-of-climbers/
NinjaChimp

climber
someplace in-between
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
This thread is headed in a positive direction. Thank you all for contributing.

Stewardship is best taught face to face, mentor to pupil. Unfortunately, more and more climbers' sole background in climbing is the time (often brief) they spend in the gym. Gym climbers don't usually have experienced mentors anymore. What makes matters worse is that it is not hard for these climbers to frequent outdoor crags without ever coming into contact with seasoned wilderness veterans. They drive to the crag with their fellow gym climbers, they climb with their fellow gym climbers, and they are usually avoided by the seasoned vets because, well, they're gym climbers.

Personally, I usually try and steer clear from the crowd but in light of this event and the overall trend in climbing's changing demographics I'm going to do my best to offer a word on environmental stewardship to those that are clearly ignorant of this responsibility. I'm sure there will be times when the advice won't be welcomed but I'm not willing to sit idly pointing my finger at others or playing Monday morning quarterback with our natural resources.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:14am PT
This thread is a worthy discussion. Thanks for starting it. The recent events in the last couple weeks have really stuck in my craw.

I'm not even clicking on the Joe thread.. beating up on him any further serves no purpose. It's good for us to open up a positive discussion about how to address stewardship issues in the future.

Climbing education is not what it was. Most climbers these days get their first experience in the gym. Face to face mentor-ship is increasingly rare. People want to show up at a crag, climb hard grades. There's often a sense of entitlement. Many climbers often have received zero education about environmental stewardship, ethics, and have not been informed of actions that can cause access issues, so they operate from a place of ignorance.

How do we eliminate this ignorance?

There have been some good suggestions mentioned.

I think gyms should actually get more involved. They could sponsor Adopt-A-Crag events, offer incentives to show up. Have a teaching-day for the kids. Some gyms do teach outdoor climbing and stewardship and ethics should be at the forefront of those classes before anyone touches real rock.

I also lay responsibility on the gear manufacturers.

Like Jim said:

It's the responsibility of sponsors to inform their "athletes"" about the environmental and stewardship aspect of the companies "brand." It makes no good business sense to do otherwise.


The gear companies are really in the best position to institute change and I feel strongly they should take the lead. I like the idea of sponsored climbers being "ambassadors", but the label is worthless without education.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:18am PT
WB your tree polocy is correct for out west. It is a bit different here in the east. If you guys really want to get your pantys in a bunch look up those photos of route developement in the Pacific North west. Them folks take gardening to whole new levels that even I am not comfortable with..
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:51am PT
I am skeptical that 'ethical' lines are crossed from kids coming from gyms.

Rednecks spend a lot of time outside and do a lot of damage.
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:05am PT
I am skeptical that 'ethical' lines are crossed from kids coming from gyms.

Rednecks spend a lot of time outside and do a lot of damage.

Even if rednecks are worse, this doesn't excuse bad behavior by climbers. We all need to be responsible for the outdoors. This includes talking to strangers about their inappropriate behavior.

Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:10am PT
I just got an email from sender one and it said offering an "off the wall" class. I got stoked and it was like they read out minds to make a course for this stuff. But then when I opened it I saw that it was $80 to teach you how do use a hang board and other crap.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:12am PT


" But then when I opened it I saw that it was $80 to teach you how do use a hang board"...

AS we all know...

knowing how to use a Hangboard is a MUST in the climbing world...

$80.00 is a BARGAIN!!!...

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:21am PT
We probably can't do much to educate rednecks, but we can start with our own climbing community.

Ethics become an issue when that little kid from the gym grows up to be an adult who climbs/hikes/bikes outdoors and perhaps becomes a sponsored athlete or route developer one day. Ethics-debates between traditionally trained climbers and new/gym trained climbers are as regular as the tide so those lines are crossed all the time. Why not try to bridge the gap?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Fine idea, just as long as the tar-and-feather crowd on this hallowed site isn't involved.

The hyberbole and anger directed at JK is NOT a way to teach a lesson. Like Fire and Brimstone preaching, kids tune it out.

And what is meant by 'traditionally trained' climbers? Kids coming out of the gym overwhelming want to boulder.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:09am PT
Spare the rod
Spoil the climber

DMT
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:30am PT
He killed a bee hive too. This guy is little too stoked! A Good unstoking activity is picking up trash on the side of a highway with an orange suit on.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:31am PT
p.c P.C.
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Great thread, or at least the intention.

Sketch(very familiar sounding name!) writes:
"Even if rednecks are worse, this doesn't excuse bad behavior by climbers. We all need to be responsible for the outdoors."

Yes, all of us. Pat, there is no reason to create a divide. Why even go there?? Leave that to partisan hacks will ya! :^) Plus, rednecks are just folks that work outside.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
The point I am making is that because someone is from a city and spends time climbing in a gym, doesn't automatically mean they are going to trash the outdoors when they get there.

Look at the upper-middle class, suburban trustifarian makeup of the average NOLS or Outward bound for evidence of responsible leave-no-trace ethics.

Conversely, go to an Indian Rez or Redneck bum-fukistan if you want to see roadside oil change spills, cases or beer cans, huge firepits with burned plastic and aluminum foil, 'muddin' all over god and creation with huge trucks, 4 wheeler 'fun', more beer cans, shell casings...

... and I have been to many redneck party sites with young trees cut 3' high from drunken ax games.
Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
It's not just leave no trace and all that stuff. Another huge problem is people not knowing basic stuff about climbing. I've never seen any gym teach people how to rap, clean anchors, or anything like that.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
The point I am making is that because someone is from a city and spends time climbing in a gym, doesn't automatically mean they are going to trash the outdoors when they get there.

Very true my city-raised gym-bred climbing partner is an excellent steward of the wild places, for example. She doesn't chip holds, hack trees or issue professional apologies.

DMT
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
The hyberbole and anger directed at JK is NOT a way to teach a lesson. Like Fire and Brimstone preaching, kids tune it out.

I can't agree more. There's ways to get people involved without making it a preachy sermon. You can't force people to participate, but you can encourage them to. Doing nothing certainly isn't in the interest of progress.

And what is meant by 'traditionally trained' climbers?


Without getting into a full paragraph description... I was just painting a very broad descriptive stroke over all climbers that were introduced to climbing outdoors, not the gym. Sorry if it was confusing.

Kids coming out of the gym overwhelming want to boulder.

So?? Boulderers, climbers, what's the difference? If you are climbing outdoors you are creating an impact. Edit for brevity.

I agree with the point that not all gym-climbers are wrecking the environment..there is just a greater likelyhood that they are going to make mistakes because they have been denied basic information.

jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Some gyms do teach outdoor climbing and stewardship
/JTM

In JT at restoration projects run by the NPS, you see trips organized by the gyms themselves to encourage participation by their patrons. Such things go a long way to relieve the generation gap.

The old generation? Featured a solitary figure talking to a rock. Me human. You rock.

The new generation? Features ten kids hassling each other with rocks somewhere in the vicinity.

This is a heck of a gap and we need to get on with bridging it. Restoration projects are a promising start.



As to the tree

Now that the two income family has become the norm, children are raised mainly by other children. This has to be continued in cases where old children act up. This is unpleasant and it is a new social interaction. But it seems to be necessary. The crux is perhaps that of learning to carry out a correction divorced from emotion. State your objection calmly and positively, then move along. Never expect conversion.


patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
So?? Boulderers, climbers, what's the difference?

I took 'traditionally trained' to mean teaching the ethics of trad climbing to boudlerers.

yes, bouldering can have a big impact. Esp since it is done at eye level.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
It is shocking when people post trip reports complete with pictures that show their complete disregard for the land manager's regulations and the environment. When folks are called out for it, they use advanced deflection techniques. We have a recent discussion about folks building a fire in the mouth of the Monkey - a day use area where camping and fires are forbidden. In the local community, some people excuse this behavior since they are strong climbers.

In this celebrity crazed world, your local hero and your national hero are closely watched and receive special privileges. Those that sign up to sponsor these talented people should provide very clear guidance about their expectations for behavior and be willing to cut the cord when their informed athletes violate those principals no matter how it enhances the photo shoot, video, etc. The media needs to understand what is can or can not do to capture these moments. Whoever is paying for that visual should also be held accountable for their actions.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Isn't it nice to have somebody to throw stones at?
It sure makes you feel better about yourself.

Now you can go back to Indian Creek and feel smug and sanctimonious as you ever so slowly round out the crack edges, widen the jams and pod out the placements,..
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Isn't it nice to have somebody to throw stones at?
It sure makes you feel better about yourself.

Now you can go back to Indian Creek and feel smug and sanctimonious as you ever so slowly round out the crack edges, widen the jams and pod out the placements,..

No, actually knowing that there are clear impacts from even the best intentioned climbers, making even small attempts to lower our individual impacts would seem reasonable thing to do.
jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Isn't it nice to have somebody to throw stones at?
It sure makes you feel better about yourself.
T/V

Ron finds it unpleasant to see one kid correcting a third. As I suggested above,
these are new social interactions and they will sometimes make us feel uncomfortable.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
I wrote a long winded (heh) opinion of this on my website, which is super lame and a waste of your time. Definitely don't read it.

http://gregdotdavis.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/conservationism-or-blame-shifting/

:D
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
^ great post.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
"we are flawed, we are human, bla bla bla" That's old news. I grew up in a different era, where leave no trace was well established and known. I have never had the opportunity to scar or do irreversible harm outside of my footprints and hand prints. I have put up a handful or routes (all super lame and easy) and I have gardened inadvertently while simply trying to ascend and I have pulled off rock and thrown it down, never on a scale I would call trundling. In this respect I feel my climbing remains pure, I have not done any of these things, but yes I am human and not perfect. BUT, if I do someday preform any offensive or non-ethical cleaning activity, it will be while knowing it was wrong. Not because I accidentally, opps, am a human. I do like your article, but I have to disagree with it's entire point. For one thing, this is inexcusable, as it would be for myself as well. We require higher standards, if in your opinion, that is the problem.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
Way back in 2005 this was written about the guy.

Yo,

Did anyone read the interview in R&I last month about Joe Kinder? What kind of trash are they producing and furthermore, who cares what this white Ebonics loving, hip hop wannabe says or does?

Call me out, tell me I am hating but seriously, this guy is an idiot. First let me start by saying that he comes from a totally white, upper middle class background, has a college education, and never used to talk like he was best friends with flava flav. Second, besides clipping some bolts, what has this guy done to improve the climbing community or bring what we all have to others. What he represents is what is wrong with american youth today. I understand that people may choose to act however they like. I understand that it's cool to have your own style or to be different in our sport but he misrepresents what climbing is about, what he is about, and further, if he could only stand back and see himself acting like this from a distance he would be embarrassed. What gives Joe?

You say it's, "Lexus Time," yet you drive a Corolla and half of those dirty hippies in their VW's, eating organic food, would scare the living sh#t out of you on most 5.10 gear routes. You say that some, "sucka touron," backed into you at the park a while back? What makes you any different from every other "touron" who has moved to Boulder to enjoy the beautiful people? Go back to NH dude. Please let me know how, "speed and style," are the factors that matter anymore? Are you doing speed ascents of boulders in the park or something? That's really awesome Joe. When people mention speed in climbing they are usually referring to "real routes" on real mountains - Not some pile of sh#t boulder judiciously cleaned to the hilt and worked on for 2 years. Go climb a real route tough guy. And what is "style?" Does that mean you speak in Ebonics, swill shitty beer, smoke weed in your Corolla on the way to the crag? Get a life you burn out. Did you break the, "stigma" when you placed a single bolt between two 14's and called it the hardest route at Rumney? Classic big guy! It might take dedication to send 14b (40 feet worth) but two f*#king years on a boulder problem is really pretty sad. You could have spent two years throwing down on gear routes and probably made a name that way in better, "style." You mention giving back to climbing by throwing kids camps and sh#t? Are you going to teach your poor style of speaking and puffing to kids who just want to climb? Why haven't you already done it. That is what really separates the bros from the hoes as you say.

All I am saying is maybe it's time to grow up some huh? Maybe use your super human psyche and strength to do more than talk trash and sound like an idiot doing it. You parents would think it is pathetic as many of us do. It's one thing to have your own style. It's totally another style to think you are from some hood in a gang and pimpin'. You are so far from real pimping that hoes would not even take you seriously.

Stop the drugs. Start climbing real routes taller than ten feet. Stop trying to be black and grow the f*#k up. You will be happy when it is said and done.

As for R&I - stop giving press to these dickheads. Why would you even print that garbage or even allow the question, "Why are men so much better than women." Come on. You can't do better than that? There are people actually doing sh#t out in the real world beyond the spot in Boulder.

Time to go climb a 5.6 and be happy for what it is.

Yours Truly Yo,

Thad Livingston
Tuscon, Arizona

Yes, I met you at Rumney once when you were green as they come.

And DMT said "Who's Joe Kinder?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Squishy

Was the era you grew up in the one where they dumped fire off glacier point, or the one with the carving of Mount Rushmore?

I hear bikini atoll is recovering well, the fish are down to just 3 eyes ;)

I agree that there are clear cut black and white lines, like chipping and hacking junipers, but that is in our tight circle. I'm sure botanists hiking the hidden valley nature loop are a bit put off by the chalk on sports challenge that we see as 'white'.'
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:45pm PT

This thread has helped me realize that among my role models ("heros") are these:
Lichen on old Common Juniper
Lichen on old Common Juniper
Credit: Roy Tore Fallaas
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
My mother remembers the firefall, I remember not being able to see it because it was stopped...

I also stopped climbing with someone because they decided to bring a folding saw to a local Tahoe crag. Needless to say I didn't let it leave the car.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
Squish,

Since you have turned this positive thread into pro-climber bashing,

Have you sent Grand Illusion, or anything close to that trad grade. No?

Well, the scared pebble-wrestling white gangsta did. Quickly.

From Joekindkid,

posts re THE tree: 80

Posts re sending an icon and benchmark of Merikan Trad clambering: 0
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
Climbing hard is no justification for poor behavior...
jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Well, the scared pebble-wrestling white gangsta did. Quickly.
/Patrick Compton

So I may conclude,Patrick, doing G/I gives anyone the right and the authority to do anything they want to you? Even if you don't like it?

Really?

I mean really?

Wow!
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Never said it was in any way. Way to read something into a post that isn't there at all. Really, Wow.

Isn't it sweet that the ST 'community' doesn't give sh1t that he sent a landmark trad climb, but is ready to get out the pitchforks at the drop of a Juniper?

Anyone write sponsors and say, 'hey its great this young gun (30 lol) sent a landmark Trad line? '

No? must not matter then.

Only the missteps matter. And only if they are sponsored, then we got em by the short n curlies, heheh!

BTW, Fvck junipers, they give me allergies.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
So because I can't climb 5.14 sport my opinion about route development in my local area doesn't matter? F@#$ you man...

That is the exact attitude that results in this sh#t happening. I am being far more constructive to the cause than any of this kumbaya bullsh#t. I applaud the effort, it helps get the word out but most of this is a glaze and distraction from the proper character assassination that it should be (for kinder and everyone there). Everyone is forgetting why we are even talking about it, everyone is dismissive of the behavior of a person and those supporting him. I feel it's inexcusable, as do others. If something is inexcusable we should have no tolerance, PERIOD! The community is divided, obviously. Is the line defined by what grade we climb? in what style or where? Please enlighten me to the scope of opinions I am entitled to and what I should remain silent about based on the following.

I have climbed all my life just never very well. I can lead 5.8 on a good day, I climb trad and alpine, I have put up several undocumented moderates in the Tahoe region and enjoy these "underground" crags like everyone else in this community. Now someone please tell me what I can and cannot say based on that. What a f*#king joke... If I know it's unacceptable and inexcusable to cut down a tree out there, and I can only climb 5.8, what does that say about all of you based on the assertion that I need to climb 5.14 to even have an opinion?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
I found it strange that everyone has an opinion on how he should be punished despite the fact that they have no jurisdiction to enforce it.

Remember that Harvard study where students re-created a jail, with some acting as guards and some as inmates? In a few days the guards were abusing the inmates. Some people just want to be the ones to swing the hammer, almost as if its a pass time.

Lets not pretend that if it wasn't joe but a 50-something 'trad' climber things would've been different. His age and the fact that he put himself out there ABSOLUTELY has an effect on how this was received.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
I don't care how he is personally punished, or anyone else involved. I do care how the community reacts and prevents it from occurring again or, in my worse fears, keep it from becoming a normal occurrence. Being dismissive of it, is a great way to start.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
I found it strange that everyone has an opinion on how he should be punished despite the fact that they have no jurisdiction to enforce it.

By bringing the issue into the public sphere, the punishment appears to be that of calling sponsorship into question...

... since sponsorship is only valuable for a firm if the target audience of the firm's marketing efforts support the sponsorship.

This is a form of strong enforcement; is it fair, depends.
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
GDavis, thanks for the link. I paid no attention to your pleas and read it. I agree we are all guilty to varying degrees. I suppose it's an issue of where you draw the line realitive to your impact. Some have a heavier footprint then others. Some pack their poop out, others burn their paper and bury the waste while others let it all fly in the wind.

Junipers grow ancient as sky's witness, they've taught me just how much of a flash we are as we march around in the mountains. I'm blown away by them, they are all unique individuals. It does amaze me how differently we can look at the same thing, all I can feel as a fellow climber is the shame of it.

Credit: Charlie D.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Here are the top 6 ways to know if you are wound a little too tight.

6. You fail to see the humor in a situation when others do.
5. You see problems instead of solutions.
4. You find it easy to laugh at others, but not at yourself.
3. You have an over-whelming desire to be right all the time.
2. Success is more important than happiness and love.

And the number one sign that you are wound too tight.....

1. You can't find anyone to listen to your rants in person so you post them on-line.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
all I can feel as a fellow climber is the shame of it.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
I found it strange that everyone has an opinion on how he should be punished despite the fact that they have no jurisdiction to enforce it.

Remember that Harvard study where students re-created a jail, with some acting as guards and some as inmates? In a few days the guards were abusing the inmates. Some people just want to be the ones to swing the hammer, almost as if its a pass time.

Lets not pretend that if it wasn't joe but a 50-something 'trad' climber things would've been different. His age and the fact that he put himself out there ABSOLUTELY has an effect on how this was received.

Gotta call BS on all three points above:

 Nobody has called for "punishment." I (and others) are calling for a change in consumer behavior. Use your knowledge of this incident, and its aftermath, to make informed choices. We all have "jurisdiction" over what we buy with our own money.

 That crazy experiment we all learned about in Psych 101? This is not even close to that situation.

 If it was a trad climber, or any climber that vendors and magazines are going to promote as some sort of role model ("buy our sh#t and you can climb like this guy too"), I would feel the same way. Everybody knows the gear doesn't matter much anyway.

Seriously, do you expect folks to continue to look at an advertisement with this guy "sending" and think positively about the brand being promoted?

Consumers and businesses making their own choices is not "punishment."

The sponsors can do whatever they want, but they are idiots if they keep this guy. He's damaged goods now, by his own choices, and there are so many other strong climbers out there.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
I posted the following on the Poor Joey thread. //EMS wrote me back and said they accept his apology. When I googled the EMS guy and JK there were numerous videos they had produced together. Sounds like they are friends and more than business partners.

After reading alot of the posts I think this is bigger than JK and that new route installs in sensitive areas can easily be destructive to the environment. When you add the lack of knowledge of the installer it is a guarenteed environmental hazard.

It reminds me of little kids building tree forts; it was really fun but we didn't know ( or think about it) that trees don't like nails.//

EMS just called me to talk about it. I told him that this is now much bigger than JK it is about what is considered before a new area is developed and what should be considered.

Most likely almost nothing is considered ; but before a new area is developed the developers should know what kind of special habitats are there , what special plants, what special amphibians etc.. At established areas this isn't such a big deal there are already trails to and from climbs but new places this is what it should be about. I have a feeling that JK is just the same as many new route setters that are not that educated about these things.

I know that this will probably be a difficult issue for the climbing community to talk about. I think it will be forced on us anyway with stiff fines for damaging sensitive habitats and area closures.
Nemesis

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
How many of you people so angered about the dead tree support abortion?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Old testament... limb for a limb baby.

DMT
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
Here are the top 6 ways to know if you are wound a little too tight.

6. You fail to see the humor in a situation when others do.
5. You see problems instead of solutions.
4. You find it easy to laugh at others, but not at yourself.
3. You have an over-whelming desire to be right all the time.
2. Success is more important than happiness and love.

And the number one sign that you are wound too tight.....

1. You can't find anyone to listen to your rants in person so you post them on-line.


Damn, Pud, you write that yourself? Spot on.
thedogfather

Trad climber
Somewhere near Red Rocks
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
petzl responds
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
Petzl response seems reasonable.

Good for them for sticking with their man.

Even though he killed an ancient tree for personal gratification and the profit of his employer, not to let it like be swept away clap clap there there now!

DMT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Squishy seems like he/she? would be about as much fun to hang with as the local Taliban leader.....
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Petzl response seems reasonable.

That last paragraph had a vague but ominous tone - obviously written by someone skilled in the craft of the corporate memo.

They are leaving the door open for the axe to fall.

"Axe to fall" ... get it?

BAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
A bit cutting... don't you think Kos???

DMT
jghedge

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:57pm PT

None of his sponsors are going to dump him because they know that a lot of the negative reaction to this comes from people with a bizarre, quasi-religious hatred of sport climbing in the first place, who are just using this incident to vent their hatred. Just reading the comments from some of the more brain-dead posters on this site affirms this, and they've had enough exposure to and feedback from the American climbing community to know this.

In fact they probably made their decisions not to dump him after reading the negative comments from some of our resident geniuses (Rong et al), and realized that basing any kind of business decision on such pre-adolescent, barely-literate gibberish would be dumb.



squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
As one of Joe's sponsors, we wish to reiterate our disappointment in his actions in the Tahoe area; they are not in keeping with our expectations for our athlete team or with our values as a company. We feel confident that Joe will take whatever steps necessary to make things right, in the local Tahoe climbing community and beyond.

That's better..

jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Most of my good ropes( I have a few, all never used) like Mammuts are 30 years old. Wonderful rope but when I took someone out I wanted to cross all the safe T's. So I bought one of the recent manufacturer's rope and all $200 of it was the most miserable piece of spaghetti I ever tried to handle. Never again. Have to tie 100# on it and drag it ten miles over dirt roads before it is worth pissing on.

There. I said what I really think..
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Remember the old thread, several posters were discussing whether he should pay a fine or serve time or community service. It's natural that the discussion goes that direction because its human nature to have a need for vengeance when wronged. Someone ticked you off, they swung and you swung back. The discussion luckily has been moved to re-evaluating our own choices and self-maintenance, which you point out. That is the proper reaction to this situation, "what can we do to keep this from happening." What happens to the public whipping boy is a pointless discussion that fails to ignore bias on age, perception of character, attitude, having nothing to do with what should be considered in punishment.

Just my $.02 :/
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
.
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Here are the top 6 ways to know if you are wound a little too tight.

6. You fail to see the humor in a situation when others do.
5. You see problems instead of solutions.
4. You find it easy to laugh at others, but not at yourself.
3. You have an over-whelming desire to be right all the time.
2. Success is more important than happiness and love.

And the number one sign that you are wound too tight.....

1. You can't find anyone to listen to your rants in person so you post them on-line.

Solid advice from Mr. Pud !!

Lol


MisterE

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
We believe that every mistake is an opportunity for growth and learning. With this in mind, we will be funding a new communications program in partnership with the Access Fund. The goal of this initiative is to help new and seasoned climbers alike better understand best practices when climbing and developing new routes on public and private lands.

Good on Petzl - I imagine they have been around the block a few times on this issue being a French company, and obviously have a great PR team.

That is the response we wanted to hear from Sterling but didn't get.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:57am PT
part of point 3: and the fact that he put himself out there ABSOLUTELY has an effect on how this was received.

Gotta call BS on all three points above:

I have to agree, the fact that this guy 'put himself out there' has EVERYTHING to do with the reaction he receives. Absolutely. Sorta like Paris Hilton. Remember her?

What happens to the public whipping boy is a pointless discussion that fails to ignore bias on age, perception of character, attitude, having nothing to do with what should be considered in punishment.

Public whipping boy put himself in the stocks. The bias he enjoys is of his own making. Its so easy to get self righteous about this, but its not necessary. I can distill it down to the essence:

You can quote me on this. Never mind I'll quote myself hahahahahaha!

They must be mocked.

The whole 'didn't know?' Fine. Stupidity is not a defense, faux-ignorance is no badge of honor. Age? He's old enough to take his whipping, right?

DMT
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 23, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Credit: Riley Wyna

They probably just didn't know ?
Ahh well, who am I to say anything
I had a tuna fish salad last night ,
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 23, 2013 - 11:48am PT
Public whipping boy put himself in the stocks.

exactly. he's a professional, he climbs for a living, he promotes the brand of his sponsors, and he is part of a group of pro athletes who, for bad and worse, constitute much of the public face of the sport, especially to land managers and larger publics.

those complaining that he's being held to a different standard are missing the point: that's what "professional" means.

if you don't want your every climbing action to be held up to public scrutiny, don't take the check. if you don't want the responsibility of representing the sport, don't take the check. if you want to be a bad boy rebel who plays by his own rules and sticks it to the man, don't take the check.

one of the more sordid but predictable elements of the kinder/pringle hacksaw debacle has been the amazing amateurism that has marked each and every stage of the story. i'm not surprised that a couple of pro climbers would have that little common sense when it came to prepping an fa. but the handling of the story has been like a seminar in how not to run a marketing campaign.

they started off by going into the bunker. then they each attempted to snuff out the story on those limited parts of the social media they could manage. then joe apparently lied to a stringer over at adventure journal and told them the incident never happened. then finally, presumably once the photo evidence turned up and the sponsors started to apply heat, we get a remarkably clumsy semi-apology on a blog.

the amateurism of the affair ought to be a lesson, if not for pringle and kinder, for all the other folks out there contemplating a career as a pro. being a pro ought to entail professionalism.

in the grand scheme of things, this is a minor incident, and some of the response (death threats? wtf?) has been over the top, but these incidents have a cumulative effect on land managers and other stakeholders. they are easily run together by those wanting to limit access, and in many places, it will probably be a similarly minor incident that will push access over a tipping point.

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
They must be mocked.

Oh look at me I'm super badass and can climb 5.14, lets go put up routes because were the best climbers. Come on Nathan! Oh look a badass route, totally stoked dude, lets send it, lemme just get this tree outa the way.

Wait, what? People all pissed and sh#t? Why? it was just a tree? A thousand year old tree you say? oh, well that sucks, but the route is badass and I can climb it! Sh#t, death threats? I guess I better say sorry I didn't realize climber cared about the natural environment, I mean really, in California? Oh no my sponsors are getting letters, I need to turn myself in and do damage control or else I will never work in this industry again. Pleed Pleed Pleed.

Look at this thread mom, this guy keeps calling me out and talking sh#t about my character, I cannot for the life of me figure out why they will not listen to my apology, I said sorry...

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
The best part of this entire debacle is that sponsored, professional, public figures held up by companies as "ambassadors" are legally fair game when it comes to slander and defamation, in any media form. Let me spell that out for the sponsors, just in case they missed it.

That means I can talk sh#t about this blowhard and your company until he is no longer a public figure, then he's just another person and climber and subject to the same protections I am.

Just some food for thought...
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Squishster makes me proud to be a climber. Proud.

Only in climbing does everyone from a Noob TRing 5.6 to Alex Honnold have opions that hold the same weight.

I ride a cruiser to work, so I am on the same level as Cat 1 bike racers.

Awesomesauce.



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Yeah brah, it's all about what level you're on. Free pass to be a dumbass cuz I can crush it.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Yep, the lower the better, gives one more honest perspective.

I hope to do 5.8 some day, and it REALLY pisses me off that people get paid to climb 5.15.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
Nope, brah, you're missing it completely. Sharma and Honnold and lots of others manage to get paid to climb way better than Kindling without consistently annoying the hell out of us lesser beings.

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
I will admit I am a nobody, and I will admit my opinion (intrinsically) holds no weight within the, dare I say it, tribe. But the audience doesn't know that, this keyboard is more powerful and deserves your respect. You point out a good fact but it's not relevant online, not in the information age.

Who cares right? Not like I put up routes in the Tahoe area, oh wait, I do. I guess it's ok for me to quietly cut down trees now? Best part is that I can sue you all for slander if you call me on it in a public forum and you still can't stop me from cutting trees. Mostly because I can only climb 5.8 and am not sponsored. SO in effect I am more powerful. So tell me again why we as a community should let this go? That we should not hold everyone to a higher standard? Is it really because I can't climb 5.14? really? Is it really because Mr Kindling has "done a lot for the community"?

I may not be a Kindling, and I am glad, based on what I see.

THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, always has been and always will be. Since the invention of the National Park system, since before the Sierra club rid itself of those stinking climbers. If I see the guy, even if it's at an event where he is speaking about being a good steward, I will be in the back yelling "how about that tree you cut down?!!". I don't care how much he apologizes or how much his fine was, he does not deserve a place in this community any longer. If he's on a stage (of any kind), I will bitch.

As DMT noted, he deserves to be mocked, and not for a week, or a month or a year. FOREVER! Irreversible acts result in irreversible consequences, that is nature, we are nature, he is nature...I hope his reputation rots on the forest floor along with the tree, it's actually a tame punishment. I have never threatened him or called for blood, but I have asked that he no longer represent climbing or companies and I stand by that.

No one has even mentioned how such a personality (someone who could do such a thing on purpose or unknowingly) even got to where he was. How many trees did he cut that we do not know about? How many are cut by other pro climber with the same attitude all the time on the hush hush? If the focus is on climbing harder, climbing the next grade then the industry has completely lost sight of what the sport is about. What this event really sheds light on, is an industry that would allow someone like him to represent it in the 1st place. Then they drive that person to produce and sometimes they cut corners, I mean conifers..

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Are people really are sending him death threats, that's pretty lame. What can you hope to accomplish that way?

jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:51pm PT


Hey "Squishy". How's about signing your name to this drivel. Or is requiring you to actually have the character of the convictions you want to crucify someone else for too much for you.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
My name is Sean, nice to me you.

And I will admit my flaws or mistakes when it's relevant to the conversation, with my head held high. Do you have anything I should address? I would love to display my character, but this thread isn't about me.

David D.

Trad climber
Monterey
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
I wonder how many people in this thread tearing apart Joe for cutting down a tree get equally pissed off when people suggest putting in bolted belays and rap anchors instead of wrapping miles of webbing around trees in pursuit of some quixotic pursuit of "traditional" ethics. Both kill the tree, one just does it in a slower way that lets people shirk responsibility for their actions.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Probably 4. Maybe 5.

Certainly not me. I love bolts.

DMT
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
I wonder how many people in this thread tearing apart Joe for cutting down a tree get equally pissed off when people suggest putting in bolted belays and rap anchors instead of wrapping miles of webbing around trees in pursuit of some quixotic pursuit of "traditional" ethics. Both kill the tree, one just does it in a slower way that lets people shirk responsibility for their actions.

I have slung many trees, just as you say and you bring up a good point. I think it's an important one, I think it's a good thing for climbers to remember. When we are faced with the safety of our life, we tend to overlook the damage being done to a tree. And it would be a good reason for bolted anchors at such locations (where local ethics/laws would allow). I think bolts are a fair alternative to killing a tree, even slowly. I am guilty and anyone who has climbed a route that requires a slung tree is as well. I will make an effort to place an anchor instead, when I can. Even on 5.4's...

Does alpine count? Where you may be the one person to have ever slung the tree? Is once too many times?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
This is all amateur hour. Tree incidents? How about those that were SPIKED by eco groups in the 70s- designed to blow apart mill saw blades and kill workers.

What would you guys have done with the pair of methheads i busted cutting PERFECT green lodgepole, red fir, and ponderosa pine to the tune of over 200K board feet- stealing it to sell as fire wood in south lake tahoe?


Or the guy that had poached 5000 xmas trees - all great shaped open grown white and red fir? Even tied up the lower bowels to make it look like a tree was still there ..



See where im going? This incident has bee adjudicated, fines levied, and even Joe has volunteered an additional 1000.00 to a good cause and will donate time to plant some trees. This is far and above the normal for such a small incident.. Regardless of what you may think about him or his apology, the crime has been "solved". And ya know- hes gonna have that nickname of "Kindling" for some time to come, and highly doubtful a saw will be in his pack round here.

Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
The hypocrisy of this thread is funny. If you are over 30 and are reading this thread, YOU HAVE CUT A TREE DOWN BEFORE, PERIOD! It was impossible to grow up in the 70s and not have chopped down a tree unless you were both physically and mentally handicapped.

That does not justify what Joe did, but jeesh these "He should condemned to hell FOREVER" comments are a bit ridiculous.

The bottom line: He screwed up and he understands that. The dialogue of why it was wrong / bad idea is a good thing. The crucifixion of him is totally uncalled for and is a bad thing.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
whoah, Ron posts a balanced, reasonable argument.... finding self agreeing.... brain exploding
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Only in climbing does everyone from a Noob TRing 5.6 to Alex Honnold have opions that hold the same weight.
Patrick Compton

Paddy:
What part of Democracy don't you understand? You took American history in high school? If not, perhaps you should take a refresher course in adult ed? Or better, apply for citizenship. You will have to take a test.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
I am sitting on my couch, 100 pounds overweight, eating McDonalds for the 5th time this week..

...Lance Armstrong that cheater is on the news. I hate that guy.
jstan

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Lance Armstrong that cheater is on the news. I hate that guy.

Would you like to tell us how you reached this conclusion?

This would then become what is called "a discussion".
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:45pm PT

A number of years ago some guy cut down a tree in Joshua Tree National Monument because it was in the way of some rad 60 foot route he wanted to do. The stump and some remains are still there, by the wall to the right of Energy Crisis, a route which has been closed due to native American rock art (although I have heard that said art was created by a climber who was studying such art, and had made authentic dyes etc.)

Anyway the word of the tree cutting got around, and a member of the local Hidden Valley crew (not me) ratted the guy out. This actually went over fairly well with the rangers, who summarily gave the guy the boot.

The other day I was walking around out behind HVCC and noticed that one of my old routes, DynoSoar, is now entirely obstructed by a tree. It kind of made me feel good, like a survivor.

I've got to say that I cannot fathom the mental process which would lead one to the conclusion that an ancient tree should go to clear the way for a rock climb. But then others would argue that it is just a matter of degree. I cut some branches off a bush in the Kern Canyon more than once, and cleaned a whole lot of grass and moss out of a crack at Courtright on another occasion...

I do agree that in many cases fixed rap anchors greatly reduce impact.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:52pm PT


"The other day I was walking around out behind HVCC and noticed that one of my old routes, DynoSoar, is now entirely obstructed by a tree"...

I'll be out that way soon...

THANKS for the info!!!...

I'll bring my saw...

;-)

Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
I am well over 30 and have never cut down a tree. I have an opinion and feel compelled to share it so:

1) others think about their actions
2) land managers who peek at these forums understand that the wider community does not condone that behavior

It is not about piling on and making one guy's life a living hell. it is about preventing additional unacceptable actions so that the land managers don't further restrict and prohibit climbing since we can't behave.

I can be a lot of fun. This isn't funny.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
^^ good perspective.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
I like that perspective too, well said..
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
The underlying problem is that many climbers see the world as their personal playground, and feel that they have the right to do whatever they want in order to climb.

We see this attitude manifested in action like the "tree incident," disregard for Wilderness regulations, irresponsible bolting, dumping of trash at expedition basecamps, etc.

I am not perfect and I have committed by own transgressions in the past, but I am now more reverent of the mountains and mindful of my impact on the wilderness.

If you want to tackle problems like to "tree incident" then you have to understand and address the unlerying attitude problem.

"Growing up" and becoming mature certainly plays a role.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
If you want to tackle problems like to "tree incident" then you have to understand and address the unlerying attitude problem.

Too late! The commercialization of climbing is near complete.

DMT
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Back to the intent of the OP:

When a sponsored climber plans and executes a reprehensible illegal act and the sponsors excuse him, the question of what is the ethical standard in the sport of climbing and who is going to support it comes to the front.

These corporations are obviously in no way the standard bearers they would like to make themselves out to be.

Seems to me there's no question that chipping and old growth tree cutting are against the standard ethic. I wonder who is going to stand up for this? And how? An environmental ethic has grown in the culture at large with education, public relations, and some of the government regulations. I wonder if orgs such as American Alpine Club or Sierra Club will have any statements regarding the Kinder/Pringle event?




jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
"My name is Sean, nice to me you."

Sean who? Are you calling out some anonymous climber named "Joe"? No, you're not. Full name, please.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
I am not going to put my full name out there without a reason, go ahead and pm me a reason and I'll pm you my name, I'd start with your own. There's lots of reasons why I wouldn't put it out in public, and none of them have anything to do with this subject.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Still no official comment from the Access Fund. This has got to be a nightmare for them; more so than for the gear companies anyway.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/joe-kinder-chopping-trees-lessons-learned-and-value-wilderness

I never thought about the consequences and the fact that I might be destroying this living thing on Wilderness land.

On wilderness land? REALLY? This just got better...

and....

DPM: A lot of climbers are calling for you to make it up somehow. What do you plan to do to make this right?

Joe: It will be a long time before I can simply make it right, but I know I have learned a profound lesson that has shaped me as a climber for the better. In that sense, Im appreciative of the experience and I look forward to being able to influence people, in whatever way I can, to be more mindful of their impact as climbers, and especially as route developers. This world is bigger than just climbing and it feels good to have learned that.
jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
"I am not going to put my full name out there without a reason, go ahead and pm me a reason and I'll pm you my name, I'd start with your own. There's lots of reasons why I wouldn't put it out in public, and none of them have anything to do with this subject."

Joe Hedge - fairly well known on this site.


And if you're going to not only slander the living piss out of someone but call for them to be banned from the sport, while refusing to identify yourself, then nothing you say deserves to be taken seriously.
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
to Joe: two ways you can make it right: remove the route and resign the sponsorships. Be honorable. That would be influential.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Chuck Norris should've done his f*#king job, is the problem.

Deekaid

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
ohman! that is frigging too funny
jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:01pm PT


"to Joe: two ways you can make it right: remove the route and resign the sponsorships. Be honorable. That would be influential."


Silly, because obviously, someone would just re-bolt it.

And if pro climbers should resign sponsorship over environmental impact, then they all better do it.


You anonymous self-righteous internet saviors-of-climbing need to realize that being anonymous removes any legitimacy your criticism might have. If you don't believe that your opinions are worth personally standing up for, then why should the sponsors, or anyone else, take you seriously?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
The DPM poster is a clueless as JK. Now I understand why access is denied to areas.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:21pm PT

"Chuck Norris should've done his f*#king job, is the problem."...

Good post!!!...

That clip...

LOL!!!...
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
You anonymous self-righteous internet saviors-of-climbing need to realize that being anonymous removes any legitimacy your criticism might have. If you don't believe that your opinions are worth personally standing up for, then why should the sponsors, or anyone else, take you seriously?

Yeah, that's bogus. I've personally identified myself to the sponsors I've contacted and some folk here that I've had actual contact with, but I'm not interested in outing myself to any rabid pro-climber-ball-cupper who might come along and not like seeing one of his shiny 5.14 rockstars dissed for being an idiot. Anonymity doesn't invalidate opinions, and using your real name doesn't make your opinions any more legitimate.

I look forward to being able to influence people, in whatever way I can, to be more mindful of their impact as climbers, and especially as route developers.

So sounds like the Prodigal Son Machine is gonna get cranked to max rpm's anytime now. And we'll all have to be ever so PC about the BS. "Hi! I'm Joe Kindling and I just wanna say that nothing harshes my radness more than people out there trashing our precious natural environment! Say it with me now...."
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Only in climbing does everyone from a Noob TRing 5.6 to Alex Honnold have opions that hold the same weight [...]

My kids are noobs who have never climbed anything harder than 5.6 on TR.

Damn right their opinion holds the same weight. That tree belongs to them as much as it belongs to anybody.


rnevius

Trad climber
The Range of Light
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
and it may "belong to them" more than most other people.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Some good stuff from klk and KSolem above.
jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
" I'm not interested in outing myself to any rabid pro-climber-ball-cupper who might come along and not like seeing one of his shiny 5.14 rockstars dissed for being an idiot. Anonymity doesn't invalidate opinions, and using your real name doesn't make your opinions any more legitimate."


Hahahaha, you couldn't be more wrong on that. No one's cupping anyone's balls here, we're calling out the cowards who refuse to put a name to their slander, because they're afraid they might actually have to defend their words in person. If you don't believe in it enough to put your name on it, then you should just shut the f*#k up. There's plenty of non-anonymous posters here who actually have the courage of their convictions.

If your opinion isn't worth signing your name to, then it's not worth listening to.

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
I would welcome the opportunity to speak my words in person, that has nothing to do with why I won't publicize my name in a public forum.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
You are definatly weak sauce . Click on my profile and it has my real name.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
Eh... I have to echo the sentiment that anonymity isn't exactly a 'bad' thing. I don't know Squishy's reasons for remaining anonymous but opinions are opinions regardless. Ron Anderson is of the most opinionated on ST and doesn't even climb anymore, so it isn't like knowing the authors name makes any difference on the opinions - but it might.

I post some pretty weird/harsh sh#t but I don't have one of those suppressive jobs where people google my name to find out what a terrible person I am. School teachers, cops, etc - things might get taken out of context.

My $.02 : /
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
Defend my words in person? Unless you're up for driving to Pennsylvania this is as "in person" as it's ever going to get. So stop changing the subject. You think people are being too hard on Joe, right? He's learned his lesson, paid the piper, and it's time to move on, right? Actually I'm fine with that. This has played out in real time but it's not the end of the world, just another little episode in the privileged and narcissistic fiefdom of climbing ethics. Sucks about those trees and hopefully it doesn't cause some reactionary crag owner or land manager to decide that climbers in general can't be trusted anymore. And that's about it.

Just checked, looks like real names are defaulted to private on profiles seen by other members. So take it up with the management, they know who all of us are.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
When I click on my profile my real name is there? complete with typos.. ;)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
You can see your own, but no one else can. This is pretty standard on most forums, because crazy people.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
GDAVIS,, i "dont climb anymore"???? W_T_F over? Where may i ask did you get that notion?
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
When I click on my profile my real name is there? complete with typos.. ;)

FAIL!!!!
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
There is no disputing that Ron has earned his cred as a climber.
jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
"Defend my words in person? Unless you're up for driving to Pennsylvania this is as "in person" as it's ever going to get."


Anonymously debating a topic in the forums is OK, I guess. But slandering someone by name without posting yours just makes you look like a coward. Pretty much a generally accepted standard of common decency and manhood that if you're gonna personally attack someone, do it with your name on it. And that's not defending Joe - that's calling you out for not having the courage of your convictions.


"So take it up with the management, they know who all of us are."

Hahahaha, yes because it's physically impossible to register without identifying yourself. All they know is your email address.
jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:51pm PT

"Eh... I have to echo the sentiment that anonymity isn't exactly a 'bad' thing. I don't know Squishy's reasons for remaining anonymous but opinions are opinions regardless. "


Like I said, anonymously debating a topic in the forums is one thing. Personally attacking someone anonymously is another. If you're not going to sign your name to it, then just STFU.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
has earned

past-tense :)


climbing out of bed doesn't count.

Personally attacking someone anonymously is another.

good point, I agree.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Joe has my name and more, if he wants it. I'd take the dude hiking to see those trees in my pics.
jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:32pm PT

"Joe has my name and more, if he wants it. I'd take the dude hiking to see those trees in my pics."


I mean, what's the problem? You publicly personally attack someone about as viciously as you possibly can, but can't ID yourself in public? Why? Because "I have my reasons?"

You want to ruin someone else's reputation, but worry that yours might take a hit if someone finds out you did it? F*#king Pathetic.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
You want to ruin someone else's reputation, but worry that yours might take a hit if someone finds out you did it? F*#king Pathetic.

I don't have a reputation to ruin.

I hate having to quote myself, it usually means I am speaking to an idoit..but hear it goes again..

I am not going to put my full name out there without a reason, go ahead and pm me a reason and I'll pm you my name, I'd start with your own. There's lots of reasons why I wouldn't put it out in public, and none of them have anything to do with this subject.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
WTF?

Please explain yourself, Roughster.
Simple. Who here didn't make tree forts? Who here didn't pound in steps into trees, hack off branches, chop down smaller trees for firewood while out camping? All those are actions that ultimately kill a tree.

Hell, I cut down a tree the other day in my backyard. Had been here since I bought the house, and was overhanging my pool and dropping in leaves, sap, etc... I had had enough, and out came the chainsaw. Took me about a total of 25 seconds to drop it, I felt no ill will from nature and the neighbor who watched wasn't even disgusted in the least let alone emotionally damaged. In fact, he asked to borrow the chainsaw over the next few weekends to do some cutting around his place.

My point is, I have cut down, damaged, maimed, trimmed, chopped, broke a lot of trees in my life. And I can bet many of the people reading this thread and decrying the outrage of Joe's action to the world have done the same. As I mentioned previously, you couldn't grow up in the 70s and have not done many or most likely pretty much all of the things that I mention.

Now the difference here is context, cutting down a tree as a child in an era when it was acceptable, hell even normal, or on property I own IS different than chopping down a 1,000 year old juniper on public land. However, the reality of the action is only different by the context. Not saying that the impact is the same, but the consequences to Joe's Tree and the rest of the trees that I have mangled are the same.

So, I honestly really doubt anyone on here who says "I have never chopped down a tree". Really? Maybe you have never chopped it down for climbing purposes, but I highly doubt that most can say they have never chopped down a tree EVER for any reason.

Think back to your youth. I still remember, how 'bout you?

jghedge

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Already posted my name, plus I've climbed with, or climbed with people who've climbed with, a lot of the people here.

Like I said, anonymously debating an impersonal topic is one thing. Viciously attacking an individual by name, as you've done, without the integrity to name yourself, is pathetic. Being a backstabbing coward gives you no moral authority to call anyone out for anything.
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
My real name is Donald


Donald Duck .... Quack ......
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
Embrace every soul, with purity in your marrow:

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
the consequences to Joe's Tree and the rest of the trees that I have mangled are the same.

Nope, not even close.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
Even if they are city folk who have never sat arround a campfire and have no real clue what is the real sorce of all the energy they use to heat their homes, cook their food, transport their ass to the cliff and lift them to the top of the ski mountain and wank arround on the internet they most likly live in a house made of wood, sit in wooden chairs and eat their meals on wooden tables... might even have a wood salad bowl..
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Or have a horse pull them around on a cart with wooden wheels !
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Or go sailing in Uncle teddys fancy sailboat that is trimmed with mahogany and teak. Perhaps they simply like to sit on the cedar bench in the ceder sauna after a rough day gang bashing someone on the internet.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 23, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Or infuriate others by not drinking instant coffee while eating sushi instead of hog fuel.
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 24, 2013 - 02:07am PT
You forgot toilet paper Tradmanclimbs but I still don't buy your argument as all trees have different values.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 24, 2013 - 02:17am PT
When climbing conduct your behavior so it meets both land management and community standards. If choosing to disregard these, put up with what you have harvested...
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 24, 2013 - 08:28am PT
all trees have different values.

All trees are equal, but some trees are more equal than others.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 24, 2013 - 08:51am PT
This thread has gotten all squirrely with all the idiotic bickering, but I have to respond to Roughster's allegation:

The hypocrisy of this thread is funny. If you are over 30 and are reading this thread, YOU HAVE CUT A TREE DOWN BEFORE, PERIOD! It was impossible to grow up in the 70s and not have chopped down a tree unless you were both physically and mentally handicapped.

Well, call me "retard"....

Sorry.. that post is just... dumb.

er...I've never cut down a tree. I literally cannot recall ever taking a saw to the base of a tree, although I did pick one out a a Christmas tree farm as a kid and watched my dad cut it down for me... at worst that makes me an Ethan.

Edit since I just saw your response:

[You].. hack off branches, chop down smaller trees for firewood while out camping? All those are actions that ultimately kill a tree.

Really? * sigh *

Uh.. no.. they do not "ultimately kill a tree" as you state. I've collected dead branches on the ground, and trimmed branches off lots of trees... which I can assure you are still alive and well. I live in a wood house for sure.. but it was built before I was born. The Santa Anna winds have blown over and killed more trees in my yard than I have.

I'm not advocating never cutting any trees down. Of course we need harvested wood. I simply cannot condone cutting down any 100 year old slow-growth trees growing on federal land protected by law, in violation of local ethics for the sake of a sport climb.

I don't even understand why any comparison is made to commercially harvested wood at all. That would be wood harvested legally that was cut from faster growing species. There is no comparison in my mind.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 24, 2013 - 11:40am PT
I think the point in saying "we've all f*#ked up" isn't to say that Joes actions are equal to everyone's - rather, that we should temper out reactions with objectivity. Of COURSE a juniper at elevation in the Sierra does not equal a birch in a low valley, or however you'd like to slice it. To hold a loudspeaker against others while refusing to take a microscope to our own, is.

Sure, it's more fun to find the boogeyman. That can't be denied, a weird part of the human Ego that asks for retribution.
gf

climber
Oct 24, 2013 - 11:52am PT
those who can, do. those who can't, post.
and no, this is most certainly not an endorsement of wilful acts of self-indulgent behaviour like cutting down ancient junipers that in NO way can be compared to ontario lions head cedar trees, squamish bush, or east cost maples-rather it is a stinging condemnation of those unable to stay the hand when it comes to rushing to the defence of so-called rebels -when the act of cutting down said junipers is the moral equivalent of mountain top mining in kentucky-it is not rebellion but the ultimate act of conformity of "trading all my tomorrows for a single yesterday"

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Oct 24, 2013 - 12:01pm PT


"You want to ruin someone else's reputation, but worry that yours might take a hit if someone finds out you did it?"...

IMO that makes a very strong and valid point...

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 24, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
those who can, do. those who can't, post.

Nice post!
gf

climber
Oct 24, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
irony button was not functioning -but trust that was about as clear as a mack truck
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 24, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
I don't see why its off route to mock someone who claims ignorance if junipers. Lol lol lol.

I've cut down a f*#king shitload of trees, a f*#king sh#t load! Live trees.

Nary a one was 500 years old. Nary a one was a juniper. Nary a one was on public land. Nary a one would raise the hackles of this group.

I'm still a tree hugger; literally. Particularly junipers, I like to touch them. They do have ancient, bondaged (but patient) souls and as such I feel a deep communion with them.

I won't apologize for that. If that renders me couch-tater, so what?

I'm still going to mock that dude for pretending he didn't know he was whacking an ancient tree.

By contract I do not think his employers should drop him. I do not think folks should be calling for his job, but recognize that opinions do vary. I don't give a flying f*#k what IMAGE these pro athletes are supposed to present for their corporate overlords. I don't care what the general population thinks of climbers either. The general population is pretty f*#king stupid too, with lots and lots of ignorance about junipers and chipping and such. They'd best stay the f*#k home and play first person shooter games on their weewees.

So there.

But roughster makes a good point, and Patrick Compton also knocks it regularly out of the park.

// MOCK ON \\

DMT
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Oct 24, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Did Kindle produce this commercial?

alleyehave

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 10, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
I think the response is appropriate. If we don't police ourselves, the land managers will.

I also think Pringle should give his side of the story. I'm having a hard time understanding why he thought it was okay to make an approach with a guy carrying a chainsaw to a crag in a pristine NF with the intent of route development and not calling him out. I guess when the stoke is high to send sick projs, who cares right?
T H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Jan 7, 2014 - 01:50am PT
Somebody set up swing at a remote/ obscure bouldering area near me. Ultra lame imo.
Credit: T H
Credit: T H
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