Poor Little Joey

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PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
So what do you guys want?

To be informed as part of the climbing community.

I don't want it sweep under the rug. and as I posted before what was is the fine or is that being resolved in the legal process? Is there a legal process going on? Is he really enrolled in in habitat restoration and tree planting.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
The deletions will continue until morale improves.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?

Public caning before the Sacred Lightning Bolt at the Church of The Columbia Boulder.

The Taliclimb has spoken. The Mutha has issued her belay card.

DMT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Unfortunately the original thread appears to have disappeared. It's now on couchmaster's "people who delete threads" thread.

Why unfortunately? Because I have what I consider a constructive comment.
Yes, that thread had gone far enough in trashing, thrashing and creating its own mayhem.
I'm not going to restate the original issue nor name names.
I'm not even going to question whether the offered apology was "sincere".

However, my last post had mentioned that the climbing community should learn from this.
There are a lot of new climbers who come straight from the gym to the outdoors, climbing at a high level. I've even climbed with a few. To some of them, the climbing environment is their first exposure to real outdoor freedom and responsibility.
Being an Old Timer (well past 50, thanks), I've specifically tried to help them out with "good citizenship" in the mountains, as well as how to set a real anchor so they don't drop us in the talus!
I realized last night that trashing a sponsored climber's professional reputation is a serious matter. Even when it could be called justified.

So how to deal constructively with this problem?

I think the relevant sponsors should also see this as a "teaching moment". How? They could get together with the Access Fund and AAC Conservation and create a "good citizenship in the mountains" brochure. Print a large number of copies. Distribute it to climbing gyms and climbing retail shops (the few that remain). Print enough copies that people can take it home with them, not just a poster stuck in a corner wall.
And perhaps most importantly, require their sponsored climbers to post it on their home pages and Facebook pages.

topics for the brochure?
tree cutting - how old ARE these things and how long will it take for a new one to grow?
trail cutting,
scrubbing,
route "ownership",
rock trundling (whoo boy, talk about a contentious issue)
shitt**ing in the woods,
Bolt placement ethics.
Responsibility for self: accident avoidance.
USFS and NPS regulations.
and most importantly: personal responsibility. Think thrice before altering the environment/locale.

Ideas? Comments?

oh, and of course, any $$ they donate to the Access Fund or AAC Conservation would be tax deductible.

I've started what I hope is a more productive thread.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2253213&msg=2253213#msg2253213
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Yes, we have all done stupid things. Yes, forgiveness and understanding are great things. So is being held accountable.

Joe's apology is filled with spray and 1/2 truths. It reminds me of political statements, corporate earnings presentations and marketing BS. I don't get the impression that he is genuinely sorry, just sorry he got caught. In his blog post he fails to talk about how he initially lied about his involvement. He also says that he had no clue that his actions were wrong. He seriously expects us to think that he did not know that cutting down a live tree was wrong? I call BS.

Joe is fortunate enough to spend the majority of his life in the outdoors. He visits wild and amazing places on a regular basis and has done so for years. IMHO there is NO WAY he did not know that the tree was alive and that cutting it down was wrong. With that in mind, he flat out lied in his "apology." That tells me a lot about his character. Personally, I find it hard to forgive someone that doesn't even honestly admit their guilt.

I have written to all of his sponsors. I hope that others will take the time to do the same. The cutting of the trees was deplorable on a number of different levels. The attempt to "cover-up" what happened and the lies after the fact show that Joe is not truly remorseful. As a sponsored athlete, Joe lives off the good-will of the climbing community and tacitly makes the claim that he represent "the best" that the climbing world has to offer. His actions (cutting down the tree and his behavior after the fact) show that this is not the case. If we as a community allow this to pass without comment, then we are giving this behavior our stamp of approval.

If Joe turned himself in to the relevant authorities, paid a fine and voluntarily did community service, it would show that he takes responsibility for his actions and is willing to step-up to make it right. He would gain my forgiveness and my respect. He could turn a negative into a positive, and make a bold, positive statement. However, at this time he has done none of those things and I doubt that he will. He heavily moderates his blog and FB account and has deleted my questions regarding his actions and future community service. I could be 100% wrong, but my guess is that as soon as this thread and the discussion on social media stops, Joe will go back to business as usual.

Contrary to some posters, I do not see this thread as a witch hunt. In my opinion this thread is a constructive tool that allows members of the community to express our outrage over a climber's destructive and narcissistic behavior. I want to see this thread continue and see other climbers write to Joe and his sponsors. Joe needs to be held accountable.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
He's been around long enough to have known that chopping centuries old trees...

You assume he knew it was a centuries old tree. The oldest trees on the east coast are about 500 years old (?) and huge. I wouldn't be surprised if most visitors to Tahoe thought the 100 year old Jeffrey pines were far older than the scrawny 1000+ year old Junipers (RIP).

I have no reason to think the situation didn't stem from simple ignorance. Most people can learn from their mistakes. Here's to hoping Joe, Ethan, sponsoring companies, and the climbing community continues to learn and avoids mistakes like this in the future.

Same goes for soil crusts in the desert... not just the famous cryptobiotic soils of the south west... or the fragile alpine tundra and kremmholz getting stomped in CO... etc etc.

Does is not seem weird to you that not only was the original thread nuked but it's now locked so it can't be added to? Just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense if you know how the forum works. Try this: start a thread, get a bunch of posts (over 100 or something), then delete the first post. The thread remains, minus the first post, but is locked. That's the way it has been here for years (for ever?).


BULLSHYT boyeeee. We left a world of routes with as little sign of our passing as we could.

Yup... you guys never cut down any trees, never glued holds onto blank faces, never chipped pockets into boulder, and certainly never sprayed about it. Sh#t, your spray about D rated crags in the Carson area is at least on par with Joe and Ethan's spray about some of the best crags in the world.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
This isn't about spray.
Juicer

Trad climber
SLC
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
This discussion would be better for the communities involved if it was constructive, and Joe is likely to have mandatory service hours to help with a brochure or other actions.

I know there are places in and around the Sierra that could use some love. What about Stoney Point, for example.
John M

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?

I don't want blood. I just want to make certain that he gets it. That it isn't just junipers. That there are all kinds of variables. Every area has a different requirement. Cutting trees in one area may be fine, and even necessary, but that doesn't hold true for all trees. There are also all kinds of other variables. As an ambassador and a talented climber, he will get opportunities that many of us dream about. Opportunities to climb all over the world. It would suck if he does something like this again because he didn't really learn anything from this experience. He isn't some sheltered 18 year old. If he gets it, then thats great, I would then say lets move on and go climb. I wouldn't hold onto hard feelings.
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
I really doubt that he could have written an apology that the mob would have liked.

How about this:

I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

That would have been WAY better than all the spew he posted!

James Wilcox

Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
I accept the apology, though I wish he'd opted to leave out the part where he was haunted over the thought of someone being injured because of the tree. Just say you made a poor decision and let it go at that. We've all made poor choices at one time or another.
Shoot, there's been more stories of trees saving a falling climber than skewering them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
ssso we care about trees more than some young "bolt clipping fiend".. All is right with the world IMO..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
How about this:

I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

"What a pathetic attempt at an apology! Do whatever you can to set things right? You can't set things right. You kill a 1000+ year old tree and think a 4 sentence apology is going to cut it? blah blah blah... I'm old and grumpy..."

... as one possible example
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

I don't like it. Not good enough for me. I'd like more explanation, like why he cut it. Maybe something about climber safety.

I'm sure the Young and Rad will be lining up now for ethics, morality, and apology lessons from the ST Lynch Mob.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
10 years old or 500 years old...what difference does it make how old the tree is? Tying the judgement of what is an acceptable 'improvement' to the age of a plant is a pretty subjective criteria destined for conflict & disagreement.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Apogee, you should know by now that the geriatrics here are touchy about old things.
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
He did explain why he cut , it was in the way and he thought people might fall in it .

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Isn't that called an 'objective hazard'? I thought the avoidance of such things was part of the challenge of the sport (or lifestyle)...
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:05pm PT

He did explain why he cut , it was in the way and he thought people might fall in it .

Yeah, but I don't believe him. I think is spray. I am in his mind. I know.
raymond phule

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:06pm PT

I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

And why should that have been enough? Why should people believe that he was sincere?

It kind of feels like a lot of people didn't even read the apology...
Messages 41 - 60 of total 351 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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