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Juicer
Trad climber
SLC
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
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This discussion would be better for the communities involved if it was constructive, and Joe is likely to have mandatory service hours to help with a brochure or other actions.
I know there are places in and around the Sierra that could use some love. What about Stoney Point, for example.
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?
I don't want blood. I just want to make certain that he gets it. That it isn't just junipers. That there are all kinds of variables. Every area has a different requirement. Cutting trees in one area may be fine, and even necessary, but that doesn't hold true for all trees. There are also all kinds of other variables. As an ambassador and a talented climber, he will get opportunities that many of us dream about. Opportunities to climb all over the world. It would suck if he does something like this again because he didn't really learn anything from this experience. He isn't some sheltered 18 year old. If he gets it, then thats great, I would then say lets move on and go climb. I wouldn't hold onto hard feelings.
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James Wilcox
Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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I accept the apology, though I wish he'd opted to leave out the part where he was haunted over the thought of someone being injured because of the tree. Just say you made a poor decision and let it go at that. We've all made poor choices at one time or another.
Shoot, there's been more stories of trees saving a falling climber than skewering them.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
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How about this:
I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!
"What a pathetic attempt at an apology! Do whatever you can to set things right? You can't set things right. You kill a 1000+ year old tree and think a 4 sentence apology is going to cut it? blah blah blah... I'm old and grumpy..."
... as one possible example
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!
I don't like it. Not good enough for me. I'd like more explanation, like why he cut it. Maybe something about climber safety.
I'm sure the Young and Rad will be lining up now for ethics, morality, and apology lessons from the ST Lynch Mob.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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10 years old or 500 years old...what difference does it make how old the tree is? Tying the judgement of what is an acceptable 'improvement' to the age of a plant is a pretty subjective criteria destined for conflict & disagreement.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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Apogee, you should know by now that the geriatrics here are touchy about old things.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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He did explain why he cut , it was in the way and he thought people might fall in it .
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
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Isn't that called an 'objective hazard'? I thought the avoidance of such things was part of the challenge of the sport (or lifestyle)...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
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He did explain why he cut , it was in the way and he thought people might fall in it .
Yeah, but I don't believe him. I think is spray. I am in his mind. I know.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!
And why should that have been enough? Why should people believe that he was sincere?
It kind of feels like a lot of people didn't even read the apology...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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OMG Ron! It is 2013 and people travel, get sponsors, and clip bolts!!!!
The End is near!
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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I'm sure the Young and Rad will be lining up now for ethics, morality, and apology lessons from the ST Lynch Mob.
Irony, as you have formed your own lynch mob lumping everyone on this forum together. There have been plenty of reasonable responses, though I do agree that some were out of line. Black and white seems to be your only way of reasoning.
He apologized.. its over
some bitch and want blood = they all want blood and are a lynch mob.
thats black and white.
Life isn't all black and white and when people don't demonstrate an ability to understand that there are variables, then they will continue to make mistakes.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Why would anyone want to dialogue with *most* people on this site about ethics?
It would be like talking to my mom about sex with my girlfriend when I was 20.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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Lord of the Flies?
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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If a tree falls down at the base of a crag and no one is around to see it, was the route actually climbed?
Oh, sorry. Stupid physics joke.
or
If a thread is deleted and no explanation is given, was a tree really cut down?
Ok, I'll stop now.
Arne
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nice that he got around to apologizing after the shelter-in-place mode didn't work out. So he learned that it's not cool to cut down trees just to feed the gnar, good for him. Just like he learned not to use hardware store bolts at the Red. Live and learn and try not to kill anybody or anything in the process. Cause that'd be really bad for the sponsors' bottom line, right?
I know my sh#t from shinola,
I'm tired of eating your stale granola,
And I know a bloodbath when I see one....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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Why didn't he duct tape his bouldering pad to the tree..? He could have at least set an orange safety cone on top of the juniper..
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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I'll bet my left nut you came off the same way to 50 year old geezers when you were in your 20's.
That statement had me in stitches, Wes, but Donini already gave the perfect response.
More seriously, as I read Flouride's comments, she's not trying to crucify the offenders (although she's clearly not condoning the offense), as much as she's condemning what she perceives as an attempt to "erase the internet." While I lack sufficient evidence to comment on whether that's what's going on, I can say that anytime the OP deletes a thread here, all of the subsequent posts remain accessible via the search function, but they are locked out from adding comments, etc. I've tried that on many other "deleted" threads, with the same result, so there is nothing different about the deletion of this thread.
While I don't know JK personally, I've certainly heard of him, am aware of his climbs, and remember a short article about him in Rock & Ice a few years ago. If we were dealing with libel law, he'd be a "public figure" under New York Times v. Sullivan. I don't see any legal liability involved here, even with the vitriol of some of his critics.
Still, though, I'm not sure just what sort of apology would satisfy some of us. I almost think some confuse an apology with a justification. I think most all climbers find cutting that tree wrong, unjustified and blameworthy. An apology needs to acknowledge that; it cannot try to justify it. As a convicted criminal myself, I can tell you that no apology will ever excuse what I did wrong, but going forward in life trying to make amends means more than any words can. We can't judge the sincerity of the apology until we see his future actions, but let's not assume that he thinks he did nothing wrong. Time will tell us whether he thinks that.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 21, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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The Community wants to forgive this guy - nothing religious, it's just in our makeup. America's a second-chance society
But there's more to it than typing out ( I paraphrase ) "uh, I guess that was my bad then, Brah, but we were stoked", and then going on as if nothing had happened.
There are steps to take.
He's gotta 'fess-up. He knew it was wrong, and went ahead and did it anyway. He needs to just say so. Come clean. Better late than never. Don't try to compare the value another rap-bolted half-pitch climb to that of an ancient juniper.
He needs to perform a reasonable penance. I don't think anybody really wants to hang him - despite what they write. He doesn't belong in The Joint, either. But a hefty fine, and a few years of probation - during which time he's banished from all public lands - would do him a world of good.
Maybe that kills his pro climbing career - for now. But that doesn't mean he can't work. He seems to be handy with a saw, and he knows his way around a rap-rig. So if he speaks Spanish - or learns Spanish - he can get on with any arborist crew.
After doing that, I doubt anyone he asks would deny him their forgiveness.
It's Kinder's chance right now to earn a second chance. I'm rooting for him. I don't know if I'm betting on him, or not, though. I'll wait and see.
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