Poor Little Joey

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Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 21, 2013 - 05:45am PT
Just like that the mean ol' thread is gone . . . Dean says the tree is at peace and Todd says we must all accept apologies . . . the rest of us are just vicious arm chair has beens. Whatever.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:49am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2249896&tn=0

Still exists.

Unfortunately Kalimon, your choice of thread title will make it difficult to search for it in the future.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:49am PT
What the hell? Why is it gone?
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:51am PT
around here the important things
like courage and accountability are fleeting.

piss-fests, air-combat, and chests-beatings,
these are the ever-durable traits of
our e-tribe.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:01am PT
Curious why the thread got yanked.
The link above has the OP missing.

Insert Shultz comment here...
and...
Colonel Klink.




guess I just aged myself
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:57am PT
The world is better for the deletion. Anyone remember who started that thread?
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:11am PT
kalimon in the great spirit
of robert hunter you should have
titled your thread,

sex and death.
or something thrice removed from the audience's perception,
but intimately representative of your's intent.

'....since the tree-hacking thread got canned,
i figure supertopo needed another sex thread..."

actually,
my wife carries a different phone at work everyday,
and i'm always struggling to remember her
dynamic extension, so i study while we're having sex.

i call out her extension,

"oh, 6027 that's so nice!"


"once in a while you get shown the light,
in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:20am PT
WTF?? It was there an hour ago.

Who leaned on who? Cause this whole thing has been a giant case of trying to erase all evidence of their actions from the web. Especially any negative reactions.

Lame.
WTF

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:26am PT
I know fluoride they nuked it but in the end we all know who cut that pitch soaked bitch down it was JOE KINDER.

I still don't know who the hell this person is and don't care but someone cares about joe at ST.

It's butt buddies helping butt buddies. Whatever his apologie was weak spray sauce and it's time to out the crag.

If we don't get a legit reason for the nuking then I will out the crag and the masses will arrive to spray bolts all over the cliff and cut down trees as they see fit.

Like I say either we get a legit excuse for the nuking or I put a topo and map to the crag here later today.

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:33am PT
http://youtu.be/J6pJdZCMmZs
raymond phule

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:38am PT

Who leaned on who? Cause this whole thing has been a giant case of trying to erase all evidence of their actions from the web.

and at the same time having a long apology on his homepage?
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:45am PT
Raymond that some here called out to be an arrogant, narcissistic mess of a statement and that those commenting negatively to it on his blog had their comments erased so everything came out as positive and glowing towards his "apology" on it?

What the hell...are his sponsors behind this? Did friends lean on C-mac to get this taken down?

You can't whitewash the web as hard as you try but goddamn they're trying their hardest to make this controversy go away.

It's censorship pure and simple.
Gene

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:45am PT
Gotta love the title of this Joe Kinder video.

http://vimeo.com/63823502
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:46am PT
He apologized, has letters written to sponsors, faces fines and'/or jail time...

What does he have to do to be worthy of the ST 'community'?



patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:51am PT
...thread wasn't erased, it is locked.

either: Pringle doesn't like having his name associated with situation,

or, The ST mods stepped in to stop the sad mob rule tar and feathering that is happening here.

Trad Larry

Gym climber
Black Canyon, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:52am PT
"Please keep in mind that that SuperTopo Climber's Forum is intended to
be a friendly information resource for climbers of varying levels of
skill, interests, and experience.

Posting to the forum is a privilege. Posts that are vulgar, hateful,
threatening, invading of other's privacy, sexually oriented, or violate
laws, may be deleted without notice and the author's registration may
be cancelled."


You people should get a life. The dude apologized, paid a fine to the Forest Service, is doing community service and planting trees, and has done his best to apologize and make things right short of magically repairing the tree. Certainly what he did wasn't right at all, and I'm not condoning it, but to continue excoriating a guy with such vehemence, all because you like the ugly, spiteful flavor of bringing someone down and watching them fall, is somewhat monstrous and grotesque, if not just pathetic. (But that's what this forum is, right? Despite the above message from Chris Mc.)

Climbers have been cutting down trees at various crags around the world for last 40 years, all before there was Instagram, and most of you are none the wiser. You think that that's just how crags have always looked, but it's often not the case. Admittedly, in this instance, the juniper was a mistake: but you all happily ski at Tahoe ski resorts that have clear-cutted junipers for your benefit and safety so you can slide down your groomers. You have ridden on mountain biking trails that have involved trail building and tree pruning. You have driven roads over passes to get to your crags that have cut through swaths of granite. This is hardly the worst thing that has happened in the last 100 years, let alone the last week. You're just bored and think you need to drink a tall glass of schadenfruede to make yourselves feel better about your own pathetic lives.

Ask if you're making anything better by posting your comments of spite and hate--are you achieving anything or are you just feeding your own fragile egos?

You complain about how poorly written his 1500 word post was while in the same breath you ironically spend hours and hours of your time reading 15,000,000 words of either hateful or smugly self-referential and self-absorbed drivel on this forum. You spend hours fellating yourselves over how great your california climbing culture once was while tearing down anything that doesn't mesh with this narrow view of what climbing should be. This is what this forum is to most climbers in the U.S. and most of us choose not to post here because this has become such a spiteful place. Not that I or anyone else expects you to care.

He made a stupid mistake. If you've never made a mistake it means you're either a liar or you've never done anything new or taken any risk in your boring life. He asked for forgiveness. Give it to him. Or don't. But move on and stop excoriating a guy who has, other than this single incident, done a lot for the climbing community and is a source of positivity and inspiration for many.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:52am PT
Patrick, take his lumps and not have a 400 plus postthread about his incident deleted.

Man up and let it stand. Stop censoring anything critical of the guy's actions. Cause his buddy Trad Larry above post is a perfect example of the whitewashing of this.

Trad Larry - nice FIRST TIME post on ST. Obviously you're a plant.

"your own fragile egos?"

Like those who chopped the tree then tried to erase any negative feedback from the entire web cause they don't want the bad publicity?

You're either a friend of JK or one of his sponsors is having you go through forums posting crap like this. Criticizing someone's illegal actions doesn't violate any terms of service here.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:55am PT
You have absolutely no idea if Kinder had anything to do with the thread being locked.

'Man up' LOL
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:04am PT
The Taco Talibans' monthly stoning...When's the next sentencing..?
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:08am PT
Prolly something to do with the ST haters lynch mob
Prolly something to do with the ST haters lynch mob
Credit: Snowmassguy
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:13am PT
Yo folks, it's a public forum.......sticks and stones and all that. It the OP deleted it fine, that's his perogative.....anything else has a wisp of censorship.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:33am PT
The dude apologized, paid a fine to the Forest Service, is doing community service and planting trees, and has done his best to apologize and make things right short of magically repairing the tree. Certainly what he did wasn't right at all, and I'm not condoning it, but to continue excoriating a guy with such vehemence, all because you like the ugly, spiteful flavor of bringing someone down and watching them fall, is somewhat monstrous and grotesque, if not just pathetic. (But that's what this forum is, right? Despite the above message from Chris Mc.)




What was the fine? Where is he doing community service ? how long? what is it?

What is truly monstrous and grotesque is chopping down a juniper for a silly ass mini sport route.

As part of the climbing community I want to know it isn't covered up and white washed. The thread is probably very embarrassing for the perpetrators; they should be embarrassed and ashamed. IMO if the fine is less than $10,000 it isn't enough. The fine should be made public so other potential tree hackers know there is money involved . Money seems to motivate people.
all in jim

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:59am PT
It's good that thread is gone for the reason that an innocent man's name was prominent in the title. Ethan didn't chop the tree, yet he was dragged into the flames as if he had.
RtM

climber
DHS
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:24am PT
Disappointed to say the least, that Supertopo decided to help in concealing this very important topic from public view.

I have to assume now that Supertopo.com, the owners of Supertopo.com, as well as the sponsors of Supertopo.com consider the incident to be an acceptable practice in the sport.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:29am PT
you know what they say about assumptions..
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:35am PT
isnt it more accurate to say his sponsors paid his fine?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:38am PT
perhaps his "route" should be pulled,,bolts chopped , holes filled. Fruits of the crime should never be left. That is what the Judge used to tell me.

Shouldnt be hard to do, just aid it in yur third/forth steps lol!
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:46am PT
All In Jim, your buddy Ethan Pringle is just as guilty as the chopper. He was there, he condoned the action, and he refuses to even admit it was a "mistake." Kinder lies in his apology but Pringle doesn't even have the balls to answer. Pathetic.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:49am PT
Is there an 'ethical' thread on ST that doesn't devolve into bolt-chopping chest-thumping at some point?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 09:58am PT
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:03am PT
1st post "Trad Larry", it'd be nice to see some evidence of the last 3 parts of your statement, "The dude apologized, paid a fine to the Forest Service, is doing community service and planting trees".

Otherwise, imo, Joe Kinder is still clued as far as respect for nature. Time to write some sponsors. They need to spend this money on educating their climbers, not sponsoring kiddie spray.
John M

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:04am PT
Disappointed to say the least, that Supertopo decided to help in concealing this very important topic from public view.

Supertopo did not decide to conceal anything. The forum is set up so that if the Original poster deletes his/her post, then the thread can not be posted to anymore. Billygoat was the origninal poster. He/she deleted their first post. It was not a decision of the management.

From this thread..

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2051471&tn=100


Seasonal affective disorder... We all get a bit grumpy when the days get short. People seemed psyched to have a whipping boy.

Please speak for yourself Greg. Not everyone on that thread was grumpy. There are certainly a lot of grumpy people on this forum, but there were also a lot of reasonable posts and opinions that I agree with. That doesn't mean that I am grumpy. The guy screwed up. I tend to think his partner shares some blame as he likely knew the guy was going to chop the tree. I also think that his apology was lame. Do I want to hang him for that? Nope.. but he does need to learn how to treat the wilderness if he is going to remain an ambassador for the climbing community. So no.. I don't have a pitchfork out, but I will be paying attention. If that makes me grumpy in your opinion, then I hope that you never have to learn the hard way that when you don't hold someone accountable for their actions, then many often go on to repeat their behavior. Not that I believe that this guy will cut another juniper down. At least not in the West, but he does need to learn the distinctions and understand that there is a difference.

isnt it more accurate to say his sponsors paid his fine?

No.. if they had paid it and paid him his full contract, then yes. but otherwise no.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:07am PT
You guys are fuking pathetic.

Same old sh#t... a younger climber makes a mistake and you old fuks refuse to accept his apology as sincere because the words he typed didn't meet your standards. Sure he sprays like a rainbird and may come off as insincere, arrogant, and self absorbed... so fuking what... that is the world you/we left us/them. I'll bet my left nut you came off the same way to 50 year old geezers when you were in your 20's.

As the wise elders of our sport, what have you done to educate the younger generations of climber? That's what I thought.
NinjaChimp

climber
someplace in-between
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:08am PT
Translation, "to hell with reasonable points, you've never posted here!"
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:15am PT
mechrist....if a 50 year old is a geezer you better put me in the freezer. Better yet, I think i'll head down to Arizona for some fun in the sun.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:19am PT
"a younger climber makes a mistake"

Mechrist, the guy is almost 30 and has been around climbing for awhile. Certainly not a teenage noob unaware of nature.

He's been around long enough to have known that chopping centuries old trees for the sake of putting up a new climb is not cool. But he knows that now.

This is more about the fact that this story is trying to be whitewashed from the web altogether. Does is not seem weird to you that not only was the original thread nuked but it's now locked so it can't be added to? Just doesn't make sense.

Wade - you hit the nail on the head with your post.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Wes your funny.. "that is the world we left him in"?>?>?


BULLSHYT boyeeee. We left a world of routes with as little sign of our passing as we could. From fixed gear to cleaning. GET that straight mmmmK?


Now Joey comes along with his five foot bolting lopping trees out of the way as he pleases. An exact OPPOSITE of "save the rock" themes of the 70s early 80s. And LYING in an "apology" is harldy an "apology" -just a list of piss poor excuses.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:21am PT
So what do you guys want?

What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?
raymond phule

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:24am PT

Raymond that some of here called out here to be an arrogant, narcissistic mess of a statement and that those commenting negatively to it on his blog had their comments erased so everything came out as positive and glowing towards his "apology" on it?

I just read some posts on the last two pages a short time the thread where deleted and his apology. I found many posts just ridiculous and it seemed like a mob trying to burn him on the stake. This thread show the same.

I really doubt that he could have written an apology that the mob would have liked.

harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:24am PT
Not everyone here wants to beat on Joe, He apologized and I'm sure he regrets his decision to cut that tree,but the main reason for getting this out in the open is to educate people so it doesn't happen again. Is there something wrong with that? It turns a negative event into a positive event.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:27am PT
Climbers have been cutting down trees at various crags around the world for last 40 years, all before there was Instagram, and most of you are none the wiser.
BS and False Equivalence. Particularly in the United States and especially in California.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:30am PT
So what do you guys want?

To be informed as part of the climbing community.

I don't want it sweep under the rug. and as I posted before what was is the fine or is that being resolved in the legal process? Is there a legal process going on? Is he really enrolled in in habitat restoration and tree planting.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:31am PT
The deletions will continue until morale improves.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:32am PT
What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?

Public caning before the Sacred Lightning Bolt at the Church of The Columbia Boulder.

The Taliclimb has spoken. The Mutha has issued her belay card.

DMT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:33am PT
Unfortunately the original thread appears to have disappeared. It's now on couchmaster's "people who delete threads" thread.

Why unfortunately? Because I have what I consider a constructive comment.
Yes, that thread had gone far enough in trashing, thrashing and creating its own mayhem.
I'm not going to restate the original issue nor name names.
I'm not even going to question whether the offered apology was "sincere".

However, my last post had mentioned that the climbing community should learn from this.
There are a lot of new climbers who come straight from the gym to the outdoors, climbing at a high level. I've even climbed with a few. To some of them, the climbing environment is their first exposure to real outdoor freedom and responsibility.
Being an Old Timer (well past 50, thanks), I've specifically tried to help them out with "good citizenship" in the mountains, as well as how to set a real anchor so they don't drop us in the talus!
I realized last night that trashing a sponsored climber's professional reputation is a serious matter. Even when it could be called justified.

So how to deal constructively with this problem?

I think the relevant sponsors should also see this as a "teaching moment". How? They could get together with the Access Fund and AAC Conservation and create a "good citizenship in the mountains" brochure. Print a large number of copies. Distribute it to climbing gyms and climbing retail shops (the few that remain). Print enough copies that people can take it home with them, not just a poster stuck in a corner wall.
And perhaps most importantly, require their sponsored climbers to post it on their home pages and Facebook pages.

topics for the brochure?
tree cutting - how old ARE these things and how long will it take for a new one to grow?
trail cutting,
scrubbing,
route "ownership",
rock trundling (whoo boy, talk about a contentious issue)
shitt**ing in the woods,
Bolt placement ethics.
Responsibility for self: accident avoidance.
USFS and NPS regulations.
and most importantly: personal responsibility. Think thrice before altering the environment/locale.

Ideas? Comments?

oh, and of course, any $$ they donate to the Access Fund or AAC Conservation would be tax deductible.

I've started what I hope is a more productive thread.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2253213&msg=2253213#msg2253213
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:39am PT
Yes, we have all done stupid things. Yes, forgiveness and understanding are great things. So is being held accountable.

Joe's apology is filled with spray and 1/2 truths. It reminds me of political statements, corporate earnings presentations and marketing BS. I don't get the impression that he is genuinely sorry, just sorry he got caught. In his blog post he fails to talk about how he initially lied about his involvement. He also says that he had no clue that his actions were wrong. He seriously expects us to think that he did not know that cutting down a live tree was wrong? I call BS.

Joe is fortunate enough to spend the majority of his life in the outdoors. He visits wild and amazing places on a regular basis and has done so for years. IMHO there is NO WAY he did not know that the tree was alive and that cutting it down was wrong. With that in mind, he flat out lied in his "apology." That tells me a lot about his character. Personally, I find it hard to forgive someone that doesn't even honestly admit their guilt.

I have written to all of his sponsors. I hope that others will take the time to do the same. The cutting of the trees was deplorable on a number of different levels. The attempt to "cover-up" what happened and the lies after the fact show that Joe is not truly remorseful. As a sponsored athlete, Joe lives off the good-will of the climbing community and tacitly makes the claim that he represent "the best" that the climbing world has to offer. His actions (cutting down the tree and his behavior after the fact) show that this is not the case. If we as a community allow this to pass without comment, then we are giving this behavior our stamp of approval.

If Joe turned himself in to the relevant authorities, paid a fine and voluntarily did community service, it would show that he takes responsibility for his actions and is willing to step-up to make it right. He would gain my forgiveness and my respect. He could turn a negative into a positive, and make a bold, positive statement. However, at this time he has done none of those things and I doubt that he will. He heavily moderates his blog and FB account and has deleted my questions regarding his actions and future community service. I could be 100% wrong, but my guess is that as soon as this thread and the discussion on social media stops, Joe will go back to business as usual.

Contrary to some posters, I do not see this thread as a witch hunt. In my opinion this thread is a constructive tool that allows members of the community to express our outrage over a climber's destructive and narcissistic behavior. I want to see this thread continue and see other climbers write to Joe and his sponsors. Joe needs to be held accountable.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:40am PT
He's been around long enough to have known that chopping centuries old trees...

You assume he knew it was a centuries old tree. The oldest trees on the east coast are about 500 years old (?) and huge. I wouldn't be surprised if most visitors to Tahoe thought the 100 year old Jeffrey pines were far older than the scrawny 1000+ year old Junipers (RIP).

I have no reason to think the situation didn't stem from simple ignorance. Most people can learn from their mistakes. Here's to hoping Joe, Ethan, sponsoring companies, and the climbing community continues to learn and avoids mistakes like this in the future.

Same goes for soil crusts in the desert... not just the famous cryptobiotic soils of the south west... or the fragile alpine tundra and kremmholz getting stomped in CO... etc etc.

Does is not seem weird to you that not only was the original thread nuked but it's now locked so it can't be added to? Just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense if you know how the forum works. Try this: start a thread, get a bunch of posts (over 100 or something), then delete the first post. The thread remains, minus the first post, but is locked. That's the way it has been here for years (for ever?).


BULLSHYT boyeeee. We left a world of routes with as little sign of our passing as we could.

Yup... you guys never cut down any trees, never glued holds onto blank faces, never chipped pockets into boulder, and certainly never sprayed about it. Sh#t, your spray about D rated crags in the Carson area is at least on par with Joe and Ethan's spray about some of the best crags in the world.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:41am PT
This isn't about spray.
Juicer

Trad climber
SLC
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:43am PT
This discussion would be better for the communities involved if it was constructive, and Joe is likely to have mandatory service hours to help with a brochure or other actions.

I know there are places in and around the Sierra that could use some love. What about Stoney Point, for example.
John M

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:49am PT
What is the acceptable amount of blood-letting to satisfy your thirst?

I don't want blood. I just want to make certain that he gets it. That it isn't just junipers. That there are all kinds of variables. Every area has a different requirement. Cutting trees in one area may be fine, and even necessary, but that doesn't hold true for all trees. There are also all kinds of other variables. As an ambassador and a talented climber, he will get opportunities that many of us dream about. Opportunities to climb all over the world. It would suck if he does something like this again because he didn't really learn anything from this experience. He isn't some sheltered 18 year old. If he gets it, then thats great, I would then say lets move on and go climb. I wouldn't hold onto hard feelings.
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:52am PT
I really doubt that he could have written an apology that the mob would have liked.

How about this:

I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

That would have been WAY better than all the spew he posted!

James Wilcox

Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:53am PT
I accept the apology, though I wish he'd opted to leave out the part where he was haunted over the thought of someone being injured because of the tree. Just say you made a poor decision and let it go at that. We've all made poor choices at one time or another.
Shoot, there's been more stories of trees saving a falling climber than skewering them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:55am PT
ssso we care about trees more than some young "bolt clipping fiend".. All is right with the world IMO..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:55am PT
How about this:

I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

"What a pathetic attempt at an apology! Do whatever you can to set things right? You can't set things right. You kill a 1000+ year old tree and think a 4 sentence apology is going to cut it? blah blah blah... I'm old and grumpy..."

... as one possible example
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:58am PT
I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

I don't like it. Not good enough for me. I'd like more explanation, like why he cut it. Maybe something about climber safety.

I'm sure the Young and Rad will be lining up now for ethics, morality, and apology lessons from the ST Lynch Mob.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:01am PT
10 years old or 500 years old...what difference does it make how old the tree is? Tying the judgement of what is an acceptable 'improvement' to the age of a plant is a pretty subjective criteria destined for conflict & disagreement.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Apogee, you should know by now that the geriatrics here are touchy about old things.
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:03am PT
He did explain why he cut , it was in the way and he thought people might fall in it .

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Isn't that called an 'objective hazard'? I thought the avoidance of such things was part of the challenge of the sport (or lifestyle)...
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:05am PT

He did explain why he cut , it was in the way and he thought people might fall in it .

Yeah, but I don't believe him. I think is spray. I am in his mind. I know.
raymond phule

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:06am PT

I TOTALLY BLEW IT! I'M REALLY SORRY! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO SET THINGS RIGHT!

And why should that have been enough? Why should people believe that he was sincere?

It kind of feels like a lot of people didn't even read the apology...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:06am PT
hey PC,, direct quotes from them: "Im a bolt clipping fiend",, and,, "I travel, i climb and i SPRAY"...


That is from THEIR minds, mind you..
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:07am PT
OMG Ron! It is 2013 and people travel, get sponsors, and clip bolts!!!!

The End is near!
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:08am PT
I don't want blood. I just want to make certain that he gets it.

Well I want blood, I want things to change and right now. This person does not represent climbing, should not be sponsored. His character should be well publicized. His apology and reaction is inadequate, his friends who were there are accomplices and this should not even be happening in our community let alone in the Tahoe area at such a beautiful crag. All this event tells me is that companies are promoting and aiding this type of person in my backyard, in my wilderness. F that! I want blood, I want an example so glaring that it will not happen again, we, as climbers, are better than this and we should not allow this douchbag to get away with it. He should be completely ostracized from the community, his sponsorships pointless and painful. He does not represent the climbing community and sport as a whole that I am apart of and frankly I am offended by the words on his website and blog. We should shame him and everyone involved until those words are taken down and the sponsors learn to support those with strong ethics and character, not just strong arms and egos.
John M

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:08am PT
I'm sure the Young and Rad will be lining up now for ethics, morality, and apology lessons from the ST Lynch Mob.

Irony, as you have formed your own lynch mob lumping everyone on this forum together. There have been plenty of reasonable responses, though I do agree that some were out of line. Black and white seems to be your only way of reasoning.

He apologized.. its over
some bitch and want blood = they all want blood and are a lynch mob.

thats black and white.

Life isn't all black and white and when people don't demonstrate an ability to understand that there are variables, then they will continue to make mistakes.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Why would anyone want to dialogue with *most* people on this site about ethics?

It would be like talking to my mom about sex with my girlfriend when I was 20.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Lord of the Flies?
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:18am PT
If a tree falls down at the base of a crag and no one is around to see it, was the route actually climbed?

Oh, sorry. Stupid physics joke.

or
If a thread is deleted and no explanation is given, was a tree really cut down?

Ok, I'll stop now.

Arne

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:19am PT
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nice that he got around to apologizing after the shelter-in-place mode didn't work out. So he learned that it's not cool to cut down trees just to feed the gnar, good for him. Just like he learned not to use hardware store bolts at the Red. Live and learn and try not to kill anybody or anything in the process. Cause that'd be really bad for the sponsors' bottom line, right?

I know my sh#t from shinola,
I'm tired of eating your stale granola,
And I know a bloodbath when I see one....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:19am PT
Why didn't he duct tape his bouldering pad to the tree..? He could have at least set an orange safety cone on top of the juniper..
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:25am PT
I'll bet my left nut you came off the same way to 50 year old geezers when you were in your 20's.

That statement had me in stitches, Wes, but Donini already gave the perfect response.

More seriously, as I read Flouride's comments, she's not trying to crucify the offenders (although she's clearly not condoning the offense), as much as she's condemning what she perceives as an attempt to "erase the internet." While I lack sufficient evidence to comment on whether that's what's going on, I can say that anytime the OP deletes a thread here, all of the subsequent posts remain accessible via the search function, but they are locked out from adding comments, etc. I've tried that on many other "deleted" threads, with the same result, so there is nothing different about the deletion of this thread.

While I don't know JK personally, I've certainly heard of him, am aware of his climbs, and remember a short article about him in Rock & Ice a few years ago. If we were dealing with libel law, he'd be a "public figure" under New York Times v. Sullivan. I don't see any legal liability involved here, even with the vitriol of some of his critics.

Still, though, I'm not sure just what sort of apology would satisfy some of us. I almost think some confuse an apology with a justification. I think most all climbers find cutting that tree wrong, unjustified and blameworthy. An apology needs to acknowledge that; it cannot try to justify it. As a convicted criminal myself, I can tell you that no apology will ever excuse what I did wrong, but going forward in life trying to make amends means more than any words can. We can't judge the sincerity of the apology until we see his future actions, but let's not assume that he thinks he did nothing wrong. Time will tell us whether he thinks that.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:25am PT
The Community wants to forgive this guy - nothing religious, it's just in our makeup. America's a second-chance society

But there's more to it than typing out ( I paraphrase ) "uh, I guess that was my bad then, Brah, but we were stoked", and then going on as if nothing had happened.

There are steps to take.

He's gotta 'fess-up. He knew it was wrong, and went ahead and did it anyway. He needs to just say so. Come clean. Better late than never. Don't try to compare the value another rap-bolted half-pitch climb to that of an ancient juniper.

He needs to perform a reasonable penance. I don't think anybody really wants to hang him - despite what they write. He doesn't belong in The Joint, either. But a hefty fine, and a few years of probation - during which time he's banished from all public lands - would do him a world of good.

Maybe that kills his pro climbing career - for now. But that doesn't mean he can't work. He seems to be handy with a saw, and he knows his way around a rap-rig. So if he speaks Spanish - or learns Spanish - he can get on with any arborist crew.

After doing that, I doubt anyone he asks would deny him their forgiveness.

It's Kinder's chance right now to earn a second chance. I'm rooting for him. I don't know if I'm betting on him, or not, though. I'll wait and see.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:27am PT
It kind of feels like a lot of people didn't even read the apology...

They just skimmed it for anything and everything that gave them that sweet, sweet feeling of outrage... it is the Merkin way.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:28am PT
i once cited hundreds of folks for illegal woodcutting. Heard every excuse in the books three times over.

Lie #1 I didnt cut any trees

Lie #2 ok i did but one was dead

Lie #3 Ethan knew nothing

Lie #4 I had no idea it was wrong (see lie #1)


At this point i would whip out my ticket book and begin to write "mandatory appearence" in the box.




edit: It is not the commercial value that is the question.. Those two juniper bonsai's probably have about 20/30 cubic feet of wood total.

It IS the black eye applied to CLIMBERS in general here that is the devil of the detail. One more nail in a coffin of down the road regulation. It puts the sniffers upon the climbers. On that you may rely. So its not just about two old warrior trees that provided visual life where it seemed impossible. Its about trends, and black eyes.
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:30am PT
read the so identified "apology"
it's self advertising aimed at his sponsors
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:33am PT
Ron, when did Joe say "I didnt cut any trees?"

And how many times are you going to tell us exactly how you would have written that ticket?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:41am PT
Wes he said that on his blog, and then was deleted. As he realized his "story" was crumbling. And along with writing hard copies to folks, i also sold them on the spot permits sometimes, if they were upfront and honest about what they were doing. I was always happier to educate and help folks be responsible forest users. But if they lied to me,, no quarter would be issued.
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Mechrist, here you go: http://www.adventure-journal.com/2013/10/professional-climber-cuts-down-juniper-trees-to-enable-new-route/

"On Thursday, after numerous attempts by Adventure Journal to reach Kinder by phone, email, and social channels, he responded via Facebook, denying the incident.

“All good man…that was pretty much a joke and nothing needs to be said. No comment and nothing ever happened that was posted as fact. Nothing.”"
TheTye

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:42am PT
I just read his blog apology...

It is very telling (about our modern on-line society) to read what is obviously a heart felt statement of remorse and will to make up for it... and then scroll down to the first comment and see "you blew it... I hate you for what you have done"

I have no reason to want good or bad for him... but I'm a human being and don't want to inflict damage and pain onto others. I think that is a pretty common feeling but here on the internet there is no forgiveness... not even in the face of heartfelt remorse.

If the angriest of the posters lived with the penance of their own sins according to the way they hatefully post then they would probably be rotting away somewhere in a self-imposed prison somewhere... but we forgive ourselves pretty quick...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:51am PT
If the angriest of the posters lived with the penance of their own sins according to the way they hatefully post then they would probably be rotting away somewhere in a self-imposed prison somewhere... but we forgive ourselves pretty quick...

I agree that internet posters -- particularly when cloaked with anonymity -- can express a terrible, sanctimonious, lack of forgiveness. I disagree, however, that we so easily forgive ourselves. I know way too many climbers that live with tremendous tension caused by the demons of their past, and an inability to forgive themselves.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:53am PT
NO CHYT THERE JE!!!
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Geez. . . youz dadz iz right. . . even a simple I'M SORRY got picked apart!

:-)

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:53am PT
They just skimmed it for anything and everything that gave them that sweet, sweet feeling of outrage... it is the Merkin way.

I read ever word of it, it was non sufficient because it's the community and sponsors as a whole that needs to apologize while kicking this guy out. They let someone like this represent it in the 1st place.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:56am PT
If the angriest of the posters lived with the penance of their own sins according to the way they hatefully post then they would probably be rotting away somewhere in a self-imposed prison somewhere... but we forgive ourselves pretty quick...

How do you know they don't?
Take your own advice and worry about yourself.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:57am PT
His mea culpa was indeed torn apart. Likely because of the cynicisim engendered by the apologies of politicians and other prominent people. Apologies that so obviously are made only because they got CAUGHT.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Ekat,, i liked the way you phrased it..;-)



edit: But at nearly 30 yrs old, lessons like this should have been learned long ago.


Annnnd,, those warrior trees including those at that crag, are typically lighting rods. You could see plainly the scars from lighting on the trees.
Trees that are surrounded by no burnable fuels. In short,, where YOU WANT lightning to hit. Now remove those, and lightning will now seek out others that may be growing in continuous fuels..So in a micro way he also added to the fire danger of the area.

splitclimber

climber
Sonoma County
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:59am PT
glad the initial thread is done. EP's name doesn't need to be involved.

typical ST lynch mob in action. I feel icky.

happy that Joe is now taking responsibility for his actions.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
I just read his blog apology...

It is very telling (about our modern on-line society) to read what is obviously a heart felt statement of remorse and will to make up for it... and then scroll down to the first comment and see "you blew it... I hate you for what you have done"

I guess the bolded part is where you and I would disagree. When I read his apology I saw narcissism, spray, 1/2 truths, omissions and lies. I find it hard to forgive a person that is still lying to my face.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
Lezarian...I'm rotting.. away...RJ
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Yes, we have all done stupid things. Yes, forgiveness and understanding are great things. So is being held accountable.

Joe's apology is filled with spray and 1/2 truths. It reminds me of political statements, corporate earnings presentations and marketing BS. I don't get the impression that he is genuinely sorry, just sorry he got caught. In his blog post he fails to talk about how he initially lied about his involvement. He also says that he had no clue that his actions were wrong. He seriously expects us to think that he did not know that cutting down a live tree was wrong? I call BS.

Joe is fortunate enough to spend the majority of his life in the outdoors. He visits wild and amazing places on a regular basis and has done so for years. IMHO there is NO WAY he did not know that the tree was alive and that cutting it down was wrong. With that in mind, he flat out lied in his "apology." That tells me a lot about his character. Personally, I find it hard to forgive someone that doesn't even honestly admit their guilt.

I have written to all of his sponsors. I hope that others will take the time to do the same. The cutting of the trees was deplorable on a number of different levels. The attempt to "cover-up" what happened and the lies after the fact show that Joe is not truly remorseful. As a sponsored athlete, Joe lives off the good-will of the climbing community and tacitly makes the claim that he represent "the best" that the climbing world has to offer. His actions (cutting down the tree and his behavior after the fact) show that this is not the case. If we as a community allow this to pass without comment, then we are giving this behavior our stamp of approval.

If Joe turned himself in to the relevant authorities, paid a fine and voluntarily did community service, it would show that he takes responsibility for his actions and is willing to step-up to make it right. He would gain my forgiveness and my respect. He could turn a negative into a positive, and make a bold, positive statement. However, at this time he has done none of those things and I doubt that he will. He heavily moderates his blog and FB account and has deleted my questions regarding his actions and future community service. I could be 100% wrong, but my guess is that as soon as this thread and the discussion on social media stops, Joe will go back to business as usual.

Contrary to some posters, I do not see this thread as a witch hunt. In my opinion this thread is a constructive tool that allows members of the community to express our outrage over a climber's destructive and narcissistic behavior. I want to see this thread continue and see other climbers write to Joe and his sponsors. Joe needs to be held accountable.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
Jeepers folks ..lol

I think the guy is paying for his mistake and then some.
I'm glad it was deleted.

Give the guy some time to figure it out ..


And I for one will examine my own hypocrisy .
Not for cutting down old trees but just supporting bad corporate activity.


Really the greater problem is that this "stoke" bullshit is now nothing more than a world wide corporate red bull propaganda push. And all the companies are on board trying to sell their Chinese made sweat shop products. The images and freedom of the last generations have been packaged up into neat clichés and are being sold to young minds.
We are not the target audience. It's the 10 year old gym climbers and the consumers of the next generation that are the audience and this is what that apology had in mind.

An army of as#@&%es spreading out into the environment and pretty much destroying everything that is pristine is what we will see in the next 20 years.
I can't help think about the story of tampons being found behind rocks in the Happy Boulders.

The leave no trace ethic of the 90s has been lost.
And we are all angry because we feel it but can't really do anything about it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
Thanks onewhoisnotaflatlander... I missed that episode of the soap. Very lame indeed.

...it's the community as a whole that needs to apologize, for letting someone like this represent it in the 1st place.

I don't recall ever letting them represent me or my community. They get sponsored to promote brand name gear. That has nothing to do with me or my community. Lance Armstrong never represented me (or my community) even though I've been riding a bike for decades.


I find it hard to forgive a person that is still lying to my face.

To your face? You do realize words posted on the intardweb are incapable of accurately conveying the level of emotion and sincerity that a conversation (to your face) does, right?


I can't help think about the story of tampons being found behind rocks in the Happy Boulders.

I ran to the top of a boulder in Fontainebleau to scope holds on the problem I was trying. I slipped on what I thought was a leaf... turned out to be one of about a dozen condoms left by the truckers/prostitutes that hang out on the N7.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
The leave no trace ethic of the 90s has been lost.
And we are all angry because we feel it but can't really do anything about it.

That ethic has been around for many decades. My Boy Scout Handbook, circa 1961, espoused it, however imperfectly. I was taught it in "Junior Rangers" in Yosemite Valley in the 1950's. The ethic was always there, but the number of people using the mountains in the U.S. has grown dramatically, making the execution of that ethic far more crucial.

John
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Red Bull makes tampons..?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Slimming... it's not just for Vodka anymore.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
"ethics of the 90s"??????


Revisionist history going on here?



Edit: The route should be chopped. bolt holes filled.. "No fruits of the crime should be left". Judge Paul Gervais, SLT FED court, 1980s..
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
this is right up there with the f*#king idiots that toppled the rock formation. maybe worse, an 'we are so important that...' kind of thing. severely lame mentality issues.

btw, i haven't read any of this thread except a few of the posts on the first page and don't really give a sh#t what y'all think. so KMFA (kiss my fookin' ass). lame rock gods gone wild. lol
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
And I for one will examine my own hypocrisy .
Not for cutting down old trees but just supporting bad corporate activity.

Really the greater problem is that this "stoke" bullshit is now nothing more than a world wide corporate red bull propaganda push. And all the companies are on board trying to sell their Chinese made sweat shop products. The images and freedom of the last generations have been packaged up into neat clichés and are being sold to young minds.

We are not the target audience. It's the 10 year old gym climbers and the consumers of the next generation that are the audience and this is what that apology had in mind.

An army of as#@&%es spreading out into the environment and pretty much destroying everything that is pristine is what we will see in the next 20 years.

Good points!! The actual chopping incident is deplorable in itself. The bigger issue is the corporate machine and how it is impacting the climbing lifestyle that I have loved for the majority of my adult life. Joe is just a prime example of douche wrapped in shiny marketing BS and used to sell stuff...

The more of this type of thing I see, the more I feel separate from the "mainstream" climbing community.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
So should the punishment be greater than the ignorant redneck that chops a juniper down for firewood? Or comparable to the dumb asses that pushed over the Goblin Valley lump of cool choss.
We need more enforcement.

All sorts of new job creation in the form of armed LEO's and government prosecutors. Hollywood can create the new hit series CSI , Tree Cops.

Nahhh..... go with a gold ol' fashioned lynch mob. Yeah, that will fix it.





mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Justice is supposed to be blind. The official punishment is set by our justice system and should be the same for rednecks and scouts and climbers. From what I understand, Joe is seeking opportunities to make things right above and beyond any fines/mandatory community service... time will tell.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
I would like to see him go on Judge Judy, she would tell it like it is. WTF were you thinking? Were you drunk? High?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Ive not received anything as well, now that you mention it.

Gonna have to stick with BOREAL from now on lol!;-)
tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
it's crossed the line from environmental crime to threatening capitalist interests-a bunch of those sponsors Advertise on ST.

Good point. What this basically boils down to for the culprits and sponsors is money. There are WAY too many pro climbers and gear companies these days. I think it is important for the climbing industry to realize that there is a significant portion of their customer base who do not care about 5.14 A routes, going to see the latest Reel Rock Tour films, or the focus on harder faster and stronger.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Strange, I've received 4 replies to my letters. All seemed sincere and thoughtful.

And get it through your thick skulls... the original post was deleted by the author for reasons of his own. It has nothing to do with ST and advertising.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
post em..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Ron, you can't make me


Wade, I'm guessing you are a referring to Joe himself? Do you blame him? There are those who simply will not accept any apology as adequate. No matter what he types it will get plastered all over here and ripped apart by the cyber lynch mob who are foaming at the mouth behind their keyboards.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
An apology is not enough. They must do things to mitigate what they have done.
If apologies are enough then let everyone in prison that will apologies out.
If his apology was out front on his FB & he simply said he screwed up badly & that he would do whatever it take to make up for this it would have been a good start.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
an "apology" strung out with lies is less than an actual apology.

Insulting the intelligence of those he purports to represent isnt a good tactic.


Ive had several talks with USFS in regards to some of our local areas, the activities in them and the trail buildings. This ,, in an effort to ASSURE the district that we as climbers do indeed take care of the concerns of our use, and in a proper and legitimate way.
This effort isnt getting any easier with happenings such as this. The district was kind enough to listen to us collectively during the proposed rock removal permit in Woodfords canyon, and we OWE legitimate resource protection there in return. As well as all other areas.

TheTye

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Squishy-

If you are rotting away in a self-imposed prison you aren't able to spray angst on the interwebs... You can't afford internet access when you forfit your career out of an irrational sense of social justice for a mistake... not a deliberate act of malice.
TheTye

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
And BTW-

If you guys are so super pissed at Joe you should probably be burning this guy's house down and killing his pets:

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartnews/2012/11/how-one-man-accidentally-killed-the-oldest-tree-ever/
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
malice and premeditation have been soundly proven by initial denial.


Bet they gave a WHOOHOO when the ol warrior hit the deck too. ;-)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
malice and premeditation have been soundly proven by initial denial.

Wow, that might be the stupidest thing you have ever typed... but I doubt it.


I'm gauging that as an indicator of their interest level. or as an indicator that I'm an irrelevant geezer

You could also gauge that as an indicator of their workload or their desire to provide a more thoughtful response with reasonable actions. But whatever works for you.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
One ONE option here........

Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp

....maybe a little water boarding to determine level of sincerity.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
you tell me all about it wessie..


Little johnnie be a fibber of the first order. Little johnnie implicated his knowledge of WRONG doings by that denial.

Little johnnie professed to contemplate this- premeditation...

Little johnnie then insults basic intelligence by saying an obviously green tree is dead.


Believing little johnnie is difficult at this juncture.

How many peeps have you "marandized" wessie?


Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Anyone else tired of hearing the word 'stoke' or 'psyche' ?

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Who is johnnie and what does he have to do with any of this?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
sarcasm wessie,, johnnie- as in john Q as in JOHN DOE. cmon.. thought you were hip in this leo stuff.? It was a direct reference to those i interviewed before that just like JOEY, tended to cook their own goose as it were.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
So how much was the fine and can we look up the case# to verify this douch got what he deserved?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Sorry, I don't get sarcasm.
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Anyone else tired of hearing the word 'stoke' or 'psyche' ?

But, but Farcebook is stoking me whilst I stoke them!

The initial denial kinda sets this casserole up with a Velveeta base as well as the topping.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
Well, Sterling Ropes is ok with Joe.
http://www.sterlingrope.com/news/1907
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Thanks for the link Banks.

"I thank you all for reaching out to us. Joe's email to us regarding this incident reached us first, and for that I am grateful as he owned up to his mistake and notified us before we read it on the blogs."

Did the Sterling president really not know this was going on since last Wednesday when it first blew up on social media? People on this site were e-mailing Sterling as of Thursday and he was still denying it on Thursday yet they claim they heard it from him first over the weekend. Yeah...

Guess they're protecting Joe. They've invested enough time and energy with him I wouldn't expect otherwise.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Would love to see someone, anyone (momentairily overcome with an honesty impulse) say, "i'm so sorry i was caught."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Would love to see someone, anyone (momentarily overcome with an honesty impulse) say, "i'm so sorry i was caught."

That's got to be one of the best comments on the forum ever, Jim!

John
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
That's really cool...
Let me be the first to say it ..

I support Sterling ropes 100 percent

Nice to see a company with some balls and integrity.

I never respected Patagonia for dumping an athlete so easily because of a little pressure.

Sh#t happens ...
And integrity in the face of public pressure should go a long way with the climbing community concerning our choices between good companies and bad companies.

American made too
Bad ass
Credit: Riley Wyna
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Whatever the outcome, the worst of it still leaves the impression of irresponsibility out there in the general public.
Climbers are outlaws enough already in a lot of people's minds.
These shenanigans are just another incident suggesting that maybe we can't be trusted unless carefully supervised.
Wonder what the Access Fund thinks.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
I'm sorry I've never been caught doing anything wrong. It just comes with being a jedi savant.

I don't see why so many people feel the need to go outside to climb anyway. Gym climbing is way more fun and it is way easier to put up routes.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Credit: MP.


The "wind tree" at Eagle lake buttress, one of my favorite warriors. grows out of solid granite- dirt not to bee seen- 90 degree bend from winds since birth. Right in the finish of the WIND TREE route. You boink yur head right into the limbs. May this route never be known as just "wind"..Yes it is a safety concern, the limbs dont give when you boink yur noggin on them. Yes its smack dab in the finish crack.. But it was there first.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
EMS is letting it slide also. They basically told me he is good guy and they have a 7.5 yr relationship.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
None of the sponsors are "letting it slide."
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Ya? If they make a statement they are not letting it slide.

It's front and center.

You guys don't want justice you want blood ..
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
companies are paying a guy to travel around and cut down trees, justice in this case would be removing his grind stone, he should not be allowed to work in this profession again, I will be personally boycotting every sponsor he has, there's no excuse....would we allow a teacher to keep teaching after he tried to burn down the school? If it was some no name douchbag local in Tahoe I wouldn't care so much, but this is a highly visible professional, and his response and behavior after the event are unacceptable. The president of Sterling is an idoit...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
thats a wee strong.. ZERO need for violence or threat of any kind really.

The damage done, by his own hand even in the crocodile teared apology will be the ultimate fail here. People remember those fails far more than any route bolted up.. As far as the companys, remember an old saying, it doesnt matter if they talk good or bad,, as long as they are talking.

I hear Joe is going to be assigned the difficult task of grading ALL routes that have tree climbs as part of them.. A new "T" grade will then be applied to said routes in addition to the standard YOS system.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
I'm not threatening anything, I made a little list of his sponsored and figured out how to get the things I need other ways..too easy.. I hate the whole industry because of sh#t like this...and sport climbing is neither...
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Interesting contrast:

Based on the actions of the individuals involved with the Goblin Valley incident, the Utah National Parks Council has removed them from their leadership positions in the Boy Scouts of America.
“Leave No Trace” teaches the value of natural areas and the methods we can use to help protect and conserve these areas for future generations. We encourage all leaders and Scouts to review the “Leave No Trace” principles, as we are all a part of maintaining the integrity, character and the natural beauty of the outdoors for all living things.


Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
. acher to keep teaching after he tried to burn down the school? If it was some no name douchb


Well, that's your right brother ..
As a consumer that is your power

But I think your analogy is ridiculous.
It certainly isn't a teacher who tries to burn down a school.
Come on ...lol

We have all f*#ked up plenty
He has got his ass kicked and then some in my opinion.


Edit: hoodoos are much rarer than trees.
Folks remove and cut down trees all the time.
Not at all the same with hoodoos.

The hoodoo thing is ridiculous idiocy.
The tree thing is slightly understandable idiocy..

My take anyway
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Cintune ,,thats because the scout leaders werent "shredding the gnar" being bolt clipping fiends while pimping the latest in quick draws..


cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
That's why I wonder what the Access Fund thinks.

Google News Search:
"Scout leaders" = About 65,600
"Joe Kinder" = 0
DanaB

climber
CT
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Would love to see someone, anyone (momentairily overcome with an honesty impulse) say, "i'm so sorry i was caught."

That's certainly a possibility, and it had crossed my mind right away. It may be true in this situation. However, only Joe and the people who know him well could say. From what I've read, I would have to reserve judgment about a "I'm sorry - sorry I got caught" attitude at this point.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
make things right...
damage is done. some things are irreversible. he/they f*#ked up. we all f*#k up. no need to crucify him. he seems repentant, evidently. shamed by his actions. perhaps some good will come of it. and who knows, maybe mother nature will tell us all to STFU and a rockslide will waste the remaining tree. then its all simply dust in the wind, eh?

but, in the meantime, it's the unmitigated gall of the action. its such an aberration from our individual and collective integrity as outdoorsmen, such a lack of respect for the intrinsic value of nature. it wasn't just any old tree. it, along with the other one, graced the landscape where few other living things (other than lizards, raptors, and climbers) fear to tread. I wonder how many, hawks, owls and sparrows have taken brief respite from their daily grind on its limbs over the past century, millennium, or more. but, life goes on.

this thread kind of reminds of this song...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
You people are a bunch of freaks! I do not personaly know joe Kinder and did not read the apology but I did read all your rants about how he should lose his job and be eviserated and burned at the stake. And I know you all live in houses made of wood and ski on trails that used to have trees on them.
I had no clue that the tree was 1,000 years old? I can not speak for NY, CT or MA but in VT and NH I do not know any serious new routers or back country skiers who are not handy with a saw and a pair of loppers. Heck I have cut down trees new routing with the help of a state cop.
100 years ago Vermont was sheep country and 80% clear cut. It is amazeing to see the old photos. Hikeing in the woods you come accross stone walls on top of mountains. A reminder that these were open fields once. Now they are full of 70-125ft tall maples, oaks, ash, etc. despite being logged regularly. A birch tree grows to 70ft tall and over a foot in diamiter in about 25 years here. It is a struggle to keep my cabin from getting over grown. Every year you need to trim stuff back. Fields need to be cut every year or they dissapear in a decade.

Ron. Your a special one. Lusting for blood on that tree cutter but happy to take some rich aholes money to mount his guided trophy kill.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Me lusting for his blood? Show me where i said anything of the like tradman.

I actually said that was too strong eh?? ANd Further more bubba,, its HUNTERS AND THEIR MONEY that have brought back wildlife to all time highs in this country. So piss off with that non sense.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
You people are a bunch of freaks! I do not personaly know joe Kinder and did not read the apology but [...]

But I won't be buying any Sterling Ropes.





tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
OK so you just wanted to write him a ticket. you deffinatly slung some sh#t his way.

I am a meat hunter. that trophy sh#t rubbs me the wrong way. Fixed a door in one of Mit Romnys houses last week. The den had so many dead critters on the wall and a full size griz standing in the middle of the room. Pissed me off pretty bad. I recon my rant is on video somewhers.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Tradman, this is also probably where Joey became confused.

The east is much different than the west.
Since the 1600s the eastern forests have been almost completely cut down three times.
The history of it all is very interesting; it has been years since I have read that stuff but it basically means you have a fragmented ecosystem with virtually no old growth left.


The west still has some intact ecosystem that stands virtually the same way it did 1000 years ago. The ecological fights to save these areas were huge. Much bigger even than the battles today against global warming. From trees, to birds to mammals the prevailing wisdom of the time has almost always been that it's a human beings right to kill and cut down everything.
The migratory bird act and plume act are great things to study to get a feel for these things .

So it really is a big deal to cut down a thousand year old Juniper just so you can get your jollies. And it should in no way be compared to the trimming of second or third growth trees in an already decimated ecosystem on an over grown lot.

Thought I would make that point - for those who don't understand.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Tradman, would you have felt better if it was just some carpenters home with those trophies? And for the most part its only a trophy to the hunter as most arent record book beasts. Just average good ones. Do you know that some of those rich SOBs pay as much as 100K for special tags? All of which goes directly into your state resource fund! Its a double edged sword there eh..


and Yes i would issue Joey a hard copy for a mandatory appearance to the FED court in Sacto. ESPECIALLY since this was a "professional" occurrence, IE commercial. Leave it for the judge to decide.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
I got through the first 80 posts of THIS thread and had read the original thread regarding the cutting of this juniper tree... and had to stop. But not before the following thought occurred to me:

Does ANYONE on the Taco write to NYC and bitch about the huge old tree that is chopped down for the sole purpose of being a Christmas attraction for tourists and the like?

Does ANYONE on the Taco write to the POTUS to complain about the traditional cutting of a huge old tree to be used for the sole purpose of being a Christmas attraction at the White House?



Food for thought.


~peace
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Does ANYONE on the Taco write to the POTUS to complain about the traditional cutting of a huge old tree to be used for the sole purpose of being a Christmas attraction?

I did. but I had some time on my hands.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Still not the point. Christmas trees are fast growing and renewable. It's a simple distinction.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
Right on, Icey.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
ITT: people who made Camp 4 at Yosemite a dump from overuse complain about chopping one tree and placing bolts.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Christmas trees are grown on farms.

And even of the one in NYC or the White House were cut from a forest, it's done by our elected leaders, i.e. with the consent of the public.

And I'm sure somebody does write and complain. There's always somebody that complains about everything the government does.
jghedge

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:37pm PT

Hahahaha, seems like Rong's got some serious "wood" for Kinder (pun intended).

I'd like to see you talk that sh#t around Kinder's girlfriend, idiot. She'd probably beat you to a bloody pulp.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Still not the point. Christmas trees are fast growing and renewable. It's a simple distinction.

The trees I just mentioned are OLD and HUGE... not some f*#king Christmas tree farm product.
They are not cutting down Charlie Brown trees for Rockefeller Center or the White House.

Got the distinction?
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
with the consent of the public.

Interesting, isn't it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
gdamm hedgeworm you do come up with the weakest crap. So yur telling me Joey would let his girlfriend do his fighting.. Strange the way you SNAGS think...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
This apples and oranges thread is bearing no fruit.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
we got prunes..;-)
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
tradmanclimbs - Every year you need to trim things back.
It weren't just any old tree, said the owl to the hawk. It were my favorite tree, replied the sparrow. No worries little brother, said the hawk, its lone brother still stands, we will share it.


Wade - one was evidently their particular favorite, it no longer stands.

;)
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
trees, plural.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Yes, sometimes we collectively agree to consume public resources for shared benefit.

Very different from one individual spuriously destroying something precious that belongs to all of us -- just for his day of "stoke."
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
The trees I just mentioned are OLD and HUGE... not some f*#king Christmas tree farm product.
They are not cutting down Charlie Brown trees for Rockefeller Center or the White House.

Got the distinction?

Yep, it's a false one.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
I don't think losing a job because of something illegal done while representing the employer is an unfair imposition. It appears as if Joey-Brah didn't even value the job anyway, or at the very least had zero understanding of his reason for being on the payroll.

Being fired is the least he should expect.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Yes, sometimes we collectively agree to consume public resources for shared benefit.


In the 41 years I've been alive, I don't believe anyone has asked me if I thought it was OK to end the life of a tree for a shared benefit, i.e., Xmas in NYC.

Who is the "we" you refer to?



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
The Christmas tree and east coast analogies illustrate that you people are just as ignorant about the real issue as Joe is/was. It has been spelled out for you over an over.

"We" are the professionals who can tell tree species and know what healthy forests look like.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
You can't B.S. me, Ms L.

You haven't been around for 41 years.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
^^^MChrist... step away from a computer... slowly.
I'm not a f*#king idiot, so don't talk to me like one.




You can't B.S. me, Ms L.

You haven't been around for 41 years.

HA! My 21 year old son tells me otherwise!

;)









FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
I sickened by the apologist on this thread.

I've taken Ron to task when he's been wrong & been tough on him. & he has lashed out at me. I'm man enough to take it.

But Ron can also be a great resource.

Ron can be a jerk at times.

Get over it.

On this issue Ron has been on target & he is right.

To say what happened is ok because of anything is wrong.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
Thank you leggs.

Though I am not up to speed on the western eco system I completely understand the difference between cutting trees in an arid climate vs the rain forest that I live in. We got a whole bunch of trees and you don't. I simply bring up the fact that we have almost as many trees as we got black flies. I can see how a stoner dude from Rumny would think that tree gotta go. That is how things are done here. Even the ultra trad 100% ground up crew up in the Kingdom is handy with a saw.

Ron. My sisters house got more dead
deer on the wall than you can shake a stick at. i think it's creepy but they give me vennison. I would much rather make knife handles and coat hangers from the antlers than have the damn thing stareing at me all the time..

I Think stuffed critters in a general store,gun shop, bar or other public place are pretty cool. An opertunity for many to see the critters up close. In a private den as trophy look at me hero wall crap it's bad karma. YMMV
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Thank you, Tradman, I appreciate your insights.

I simply love trees. All trees. A CA native, I was surrounded by trees. Here in the desert, I am surrounded by beautiful cactus. Hurts to see one of those get chopped too.





PS: Don't eat that venison, dude.


;)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
The national Christmas Tree?
False equivalence.
The national Christmas tree has been a living tree (transplanted) since 1973. Not all of them successfully survived the transplant. Most of them have come from nurseries. So they're not likely more than 100 years old, with more coming along right behind.

I'd like to know how old the removed tree was. I'm sure many here would be surprised.


I can see how a stoner dude from Rumny would think that tree gotta go.
Now that's an interesting perspective.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
HT ... I did not realize that. Thank you for the info!
I love when I am wrong. (seriously)

(just don't tell drljefe I said that)



;)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Leggs
I had to look it up!!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
No worries. Millions of other folks will cut down live trees for Christmas... ;)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
I once busted the Alpine county under sheriff for stealing christmas trees of USFS land. 8:30 at night. Boyeee was he surprised.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
I think you just like busting people;)
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
No wonder the president didn't answer my letter.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
Ron, didn't you drill pockets?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
Stealing Christmas Trees. That's classic.

Give Christ a chance, goddamnit!
JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
I cleaned up the house and mowed the lawn now what?

oh it's not about me, carry on.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Climbers have been cutting down trees at various crags around the world for last 40 years, all before there was Instagram, and most of you are none the wiser.

So this make this instance okay? People have been stealing from other for centuries and apologized when they got caught. Does that mean if I steal something from you (your rack?), get caught and apologize (geez, I did not realize it was wrong) it is okay and no one on the forum should criticize me?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
tradman....
You're welcome to come across the country and harvest the 50 foot Doug Fir just outside my window. It's bigger and bushier than Joe's Juniper and only 40 years old.
Don't even have to bring your own chainsaw.
;-)
WBraun

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
It's just plain simple.

We climbers are not supposed to cut down trees for our climbs on public lands.

If we continue to disrespect our freedom to do new routes and resort to cutting down sh!t then these land managers are gonna raise hell on us.

They believe we know better and absolutely we should know better.

There's no way around it ......

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
drljefe,, yes i did drill some pockets. On a road blasted face.. Guilty as charged. All routes there including the naturals were chopped. I never re installed them.


NAME corrected !
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Werner. Yep. End of story.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Leggs
I had to look it up!!


Hahahhahahahha!! You mean you're NOT all knowing and PERFECT?!
Get yer ass off the Taco... NOW!



;)




No worries. Millions of other folks will cut down live trees for Christmas... ;)

Happy to say, Tradman, that I've not hosted a cut Christmas tree in my house since my kid was... little.

*WhooHoo!

;)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
I'm not a f*#king idiot, so don't talk to me like one.

Then don't act like one.


I don't celebrate xmas but I cut an xmas tree every year, gladly. I prefer lodgepoles that are encroaching the meadows... or suitable trees that happen to be in the way of a boulder problem.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
Did you just call me dre le fefe?????????
Haha whatevz f*#king chipper.

And Ron, I saw that kinder sent Grand Illusion.
Robinson

Trad climber
Chattanooga
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
Once I cut a tree down at the base of a route using a Hilti bolt gun. I woulda sawed it but I didn't have a saw. So I drilled a bunch of holes through the base until I could bend it over and break it. I named the route ... Gift Of Power ... A hat tip to my trusty Hilti.

I don't know Joe Kinder from Adam but give the man a break.

And if you want to sling acid on SuperTopo ... sign your name to what you got to say and don't hide behind some snarky handle.

Climb on Joe.
julton

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
A public caning would satisfy me.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
A bristlecone pine would look so sweet next to my stuffed moose.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
Man a sense of humor sure helps.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
sorry bout that typo drljefe.. fefe,, hehehehe...twas actually accidental..
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Half assed, crocodile tears, spray filled, half truth attempt at an apology Ron "I drilled pockets but it was in a roadcut" Anderson.

I'm boycotting all taxidermists.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
I made my public apology long ago.. A full confession as well. One where i DIDNT lie about a single aspect. Owned it fully. And did not ever deny it- in fact it went into my guide. There was zero covertness in short. So have at me. And i dint mind if you boycott those Texas dermists, they have too much work anyhow.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
I was talking about your apology to me, but....

Speaking of apologies....
I accept Kinder's.
What he did was superfvcking lame but I think he learned his lesson and hopefully good things will come of it.

I love trees. I'm a SNAG and i love snags.

Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
tradmanclimbs,

Joe K. has been lurking in the desert southwest for at least the last 5 years . . . he knows that it is arid and he has seen junipers before. He cannot play the ignorant east coaster card . . . just the self righteous douchebag card.

Someone (Trad Larry of all people) also posted that he is out "planting trees" and doing community service as part of his pennance . . . give me a f*#king break! I can assure you that the little boy has not the constitution for such manual labor or self sacrifice. Trustafari Bra.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Can you imagine the grief George Washington would have received if supertopo was around back then..?
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Thank you Fluoride for bringing some honest to goodness bullshit calling to poor little Joey's self inflicted predicament.

Trad Larry: no one is from Black Canyon, Colorado. You are just some trumped up imposter . . . an errand boy for the grocery clerk. Pretty amazing how these as#@&%es come out of the woodwork, no pun intended.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
Jeez, the kid's already known as the Lee Harvey Oswald of Junipers, which is a hard label to shake. He's apologized, granted he took awhile to do it, but at least he acknowledged his behavior. His sponsors ain't happy, you can bet on it. However, this continued thrashing about how severely he should be punished is just so much mental masturbation.

At least he didn't name the damn climb Paul Bunyan's Surprise.

Now, lets see as much passion expressed for the hold chippers, rap bolters, and "enhanced hook placements".
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Lord of the Flies X10
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Tradman, I'm sorry I was ever mean to you.
I mean it. Even though you don't like dogs and can't spell worth a sh¡t, I'm sure we could hang. You know, play some Dead on the gits, bolt some routes.
Figure this is as good a time as ever to apologize.
4 years.
More than Kinder, less than shipoopi. ;-)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
I think is cool that just about 100 percent of us agree that it is awful to cut down an old juniper for the sake of a climbing route.
Probably the closest we have ever came to a consensus on supertaco.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 10:48pm PT


Jeez, the kid's already known as the Lee Harvey Oswald of Junipers, which is a hard label to shake. He's apologized, granted he took awhile to do it, but at least he acknowledged his behavior. His sponsors ain't happy, you can bet on it. However, this continued thrashing about how severely he should be punished is just so much mental masturbation.

At least he didn't name the damn climb Paul Bunyan's Surprise.

Now, lets see as much passion expressed for the hold chippers, rap bolters, and "enhanced hook placements".


Amen. As Riley points out, almost no one argues cutting the tree was right, excused, OK or something we should overlook, but you'd think there must be a bunch of people who think otherwise from the posts. Werner got it right; we need to go exceedingly lightly on public lands.

I rather suspect the extra vitality of this thread relates to the desire of so many to beat up on the corporate sponsors generally, or perhaps to beat up on someone well known who really screwed up. I hope it doesn't relate to the comment of Dougal Haston a little over 40 years ago, about a critic of John Harlin's Alpine record:

"Whenever great men arise, there will always be little men to belittle them." I don't mean to imply that JK is great, or his critics necessarily little, but we sure seem to revel in public figures' destruction.

John
Deekaid

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
public figure ...HA!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:07am PT
It seems more likly that the masses simply want blood. there ain't no turn the other cheek or forgiveness in this hood....

Drjeffe (SP?) Sorry if I dissed the deadheads a million years ago ironicly for leaveing tons of garbage behind whenevr and wherever they gather in force.. and I do not hate dogs. I simply see through their scam.

Not much of an apology but it's what i got this morning;)

I am up for jamming music any time. Played a Dire Wolf, Cassidy and a Loser the other day. then drifted back to a bunch of Neil Young and some Willie..
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:46am PT
tradmans...Dead Dissing could lead to a boycott of your sponsors...Who are they..? RJ
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:48am PT
Another 100 posts of ST masturbatory bloodlust.

Proud to be a climber today. Proud.
DanaB

climber
CT
Oct 22, 2013 - 05:57am PT
Peripheral to the discussion, but.


These sponsored climbers are, essentially, salesmen.
What exactly are they selling?
What do I get if I buy it?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:35am PT
You get to be bitchin like the sponsored athletes...For the right price you can be someone...Be all you can be...Dare to dream...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:42am PT
And with a little luck you can grow up into a big, bad adult kangaroo.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:53am PT
As Riley points out, almost no one argues cutting the tree was right, excused, OK or something we should overlook [...]

Sterling ropes did state that cutting the tree is excused:

http://www.sterlingrope.com/news/1907

However since Joe is one of our athletes, we will be working with him to see what steps we can take. Whether that means planting more Juniper, or putting up signage and information to educate future climbers, not only to avoid cutting down trees, but to leave no trace at all in places where they climb, this is what we will do together.

Sounds like they are going the P.T Barnum route: "There's no such thing as bad publicity." Now they can put up signs at the crag, which will probably include their logo alongside the message. Because we all need to be reminded to leave the chainsaw behind as we start the approach ...

It is interesting that some folks here are claiming that this thread calls for "punishment." I don't see many posts, if any, that call for a specific punitive action against Joe Kinder. I haven't suggested that anything be "done" to him (although it is reasonable to ask if any specific laws were broken, law enforcement can handle that if they choose to do so.)

I am not calling for punishment, but I am noting that without action, undesirable behavior will continue.

There are dozens of rope manufacturers out there. I will be removing Sterling from consideration when I purchase in the future. A company's attitude towards environmental stewardship is more important to me than how "hard" their sponsored climbers can "send." I believe that many other climbers and feel likewise, and gear manufacturers would be wise to take note.







fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:03am PT
lol @ sterling

they really seem to care


































about selling ropes
Trad Larry

Gym climber
Black Canyon, Colorado
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:16am PT
After browsing through these comments, I think it's clear to anyone slightly discerning that most of the "outrage" over the loss of this tree mostly (not completely) stems from a deep, ugly jealousy of Joe's life and talent. Maybe there was a moment of shock about the tree, but it quickly became not about the tree ... not at all. So transparent it breaks my heart, actually. You people don't think he deserves the life he has very much earned for himself (he's not a trustfunder as someone mentioned, in fact he's one of the hardest working professional climbers out there) and you want to try to tear that away from him ... why? One can only guess that it stems from some deeper dissatisfaction or discontent with yourselves. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but I swear that your lives really will be better if you stop posting hateful, jealous, insane, judgmental, and often completely misinformed comments on the Internet about good people in the climbing community.

It won't happen right away ... but eventually, you might learn to like yourselves.

OK, enough preaching. over and out ...
Deekaid

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:18am PT
good post Dave kos
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:19am PT
Dr. Phil -- aka "Trad Larry" -- has joined us on SuperTopo!


Deekaid

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:21am PT
hey "trad larry " you're not helping joe kindling out with your posts
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:21am PT
Tough situation.........A mistake to cut down the tree;.....pretty much everyone agrees with that one. Now what........
I guess Joe and Ethan can give everyone the finger and get on with it.
They tried to explain their mistake and say a heart-felt "I'm sorry.".....but many many people can, won't, don't want to buy into their apology....fair enough.
Personally, I like and appreciate when people fuk up and say they are sorry.....I like it a whole hell of alot better than when people fuk up and don't apologize for their mistakes.
Sometimes apologizes work;...sometimes they don't.....I still like to see them and respect the "sorry" part. If you don't acknowledge the apologize or respect the "I am sorry"......I think it encourages people to NOT apologize and say "sorry" in the future;...and just be cold hard-asses.......we have enough cold hard-asses in the world. I don't like the cut tree either;...but I do like the apology and the "sorry" thing;......always have, and always will....I like to hear it, I respect it when people do it, and I encourage people to do so when they f-up.......I try to do the same in my life when I screw up;...and when I do screw up;...I hope I have the sac to say "I'm sorry" and mean it....and I hope my friends accept my apologies..........it's a scary scary world to think that if and when we screw up....our apologizes don't, can't and won't work.........good luck to Joe and Ethan.........
(from earlier post that got deleated..)..
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:24am PT
Apologies riddled with self promotion aren't really apologies.

Joe and Ethan will be fine, it's the trees at the crag that I'm worried about.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:31am PT


Metolius will have a saw out next year.


GLillegard

Social climber
Oregon
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:49am PT
Here's some more of Sterling's response:
"As a manufacturer of life-safety products, we take our products, our employees, our actions and our sponsorships very seriously. We strongly support the ethic of Leave No Trace, and this applies to employees, sponsored athletes, or any other individuals who serve as ambassadors for our brand in the community. We have had a long relationship with Joe in part because we felt he was a person of good character. If I thought for a moment that Joe didn't regret what he had done, thought the climbing community was overreacting, or that he might repeat his mistakes in the future, Joe would never have a spot on our team again. But I don't feel that way. Joe's apology is sincere and heartfelt and he intends to do what he can to make amends. Having said that, we all need to work to make this right, and certainly, as Joe suggested in his blog apology, to use this incident to educate others."


I can respect that a company has enough fiber to stick with an "employee" thru a screw-up . He screwed up and was sorry he got caught.I have seen plenty of bad behavior by climbers and their ego's over the years that has not been "Caught". He is certainly less than perfect, may even be a horse's ass, but I can be too. Sterling will keep him on a short leash, but for now take the heat. Next week this will be out of the Supertopo "news cycle" and the crowd can get on to their next "project".
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:59am PT
After browsing through these comments, I think it's clear to anyone slightly discerning that most of the "outrage" over the loss of this tree mostly (not completely) stems from a deep, ugly jealousy of Joe's life and talent.

Spot on. Throw in some good ol east side regionalism, a 'secret' crag the local yocals don't know a about, a bolted 14 suspiciously next to a crack...

...and you have blood in the water.

BURN the Witch!

oh AND he did Grand Illusion quickly, I hate that guy.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:23am PT
still bawling PC? Over a sport weenie and his jackwagon apology?

He got caught. Illegally removing LIVE trees without a permit.

I hope that part of his fines includes a class on what a LIVE tree looks like. At 30 yrs old,,he hasnt a clue apparently.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:26am PT
Still crying because I am crying Ronski?

I in no way support his cutting the tree.

But he gave an apology. I believe it to be sincere. Story over.

Oh, unless you have an issue with jet-set sport-weeenies that climb 10xs harder (INCLUDING Trad!) than you ever will,

then yeah, screw that guy.
jghedge

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:27am PT
"After browsing through these comments, I think it's clear to anyone slightly discerning that most of the "outrage" over the loss of this tree mostly (not completely) stems from a deep, ugly jealousy of Joe's life and talent."


Also the same weird, pathological hatred of sport climbing in general that a lot of ST posters seem to have - especially the stupider ones.

I don't condone cutting down juniper trees at the base of crags, but I have to wonder if the outrage would be the same if the route in question was a perfect splitter that the tree interfered with, instead of a sport route.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:45am PT
Cutting TREES ( plural).

Then LYING/denying about it, and even after confession LIES about the condition of the trees. 3 strikes and heeees OUTTA THERE LOL!!

You guys have some coolio "heros" allright.

and PC since i only climb 5.3Ds these days saying anyone climbs 10X harder than me isnt a big deal.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:49am PT
What are these these LIES you speak of Rong?

Are these the same type of global warming LIES on MSNBC and CNN?
jghedge

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:56am PT


"Then LYING/denying about it, and even after confession LIES about the condition of the trees. 3 strikes and heeees OUTTA THERE LOL!!"


Hahahaha, you post more lies than that per hour, and you're too stupid to realize how obvious it is.


Your idiotic drivel is exactly what this writer was complaining about:


http://wavehaven.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/kinder-kind-of-climbers/

"I read through many of the hundreds of posts on the SuperTopo website thread until, completely disgusted at the banality of comments, I sought a brighter light on the subject. "
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:56am PT
Again??


Lie #1 I didnt cut any trees

Lie #2 ok i did but one was dead

Lie #3 Ethan knew nothing

Lie #4 I had no idea it was wrong (see lie #1)


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:58am PT
Apologies riddled with self promotion aren't really apologies.

They could be if all you know and do in life is self promotion.

I am an as#@&%e. All I've ever done in my life is be an as#@&%e. When I apologize I come off as an as#@&%e. That doesn't invalidate my apology or make it any less sincere. It is just who I am and I'm fuking sorry. If you don't like it, fuk off. Sorry, I didn't mean that. GFYS... not You specifically, but You collectively, as in all of humanity. God I hate this planet... I wish they had dropped me off on the right one.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:23am PT
Redirecting the subject much? I wonder who all these "supporters" really are. Is there really a group of pro climbers who support and condone this type of action and person? I wonder what Alex Honnold thinks of all this, he seems to be the only respectable pro climber in existence. I would guess it would be in their interest to protect their grindstones from being ripped away in cases like this, it would set a presidence, as the delicate arch debacle should have.

I don't know how the subject has turned on the people complaining and reacting but I happen to be one of them (I consider Tahoe my local area, I am pissed off, I like trad and I don't like the business of professional climbing). Is that such a crime? That's my personal opinion and philosophy, it is not an offense, he's the one who f'ed up, not me. None of those facts should take any weight away from my opinion, I am not acting out of jealously and it's offensive to listen to you accuse me of such.

If you want to defend him without defending his actions, just do so honestly, stop trying to discredit my opinions and those who share them, it's kind of offensive to hear someone try and speak for me or my stance, try listening instead. The sponsors will understand after they see the bottom line in a year or so. Supporting clowns like this should not be profitable and it should have never happened. This isn't about our reaction or how sever the punishment should be and yadda yadda...

The truth is this should have never happened, most local climbers are completely shocked! The real problem is a system and industry that creates people like this, situations like this and events like this. My opinion is broader than some hardman jealously or narrow minded ethic, if you do not understand it, don't speak for me. You can soul surf all day or ride pro in the comps, but there's always another wave, you can't go all pro on a rock face and expect the soul climbers who come after to praise your name...You are now a villain, not a superstar and you knew better the whole time you lying sack!
jghedge

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:46am PT

"...you can't go all pro on a rock face and expect the soul climbers who come after to praise your name...You are now a villain, not a superstar and you knew better the whole time you lying sack!"


Hahahahahaha, now that's some funny sh#t.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:49am PT
Gud post Squishy!

Just say NO to outdoor industry entitlement programs!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:00am PT
"...you can't go all pro on a rock face and expect the soul climbers who come after to praise your name...You are now a villain, not a superstar and you knew better the whole time you lying sack!"


Hahahahahaha, now that's some funny sh#t.

entertaining yes, but truth as well.
Credit: not me
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Bottom line. Chopping down a juniper is weak sauce.

There should be consequences, and he should lose sponsorships. Otherwise, what does it say about the industry's and community's ability to self regulate. Access issues aren't diminishing, and resources are finite.

Finally, maybe this isn't so much about who Joe Kinder is, but who he is not. It makes me appreciate (some) climbers (mostly) from previous generations. They weren't saints, but they had something relevant to say about obviously stupid things like chopping down very old trees, chiseling, bolting cracks etc. Any sponsorship associated with those behaviors is really distasteful.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:29am PT
Don't know where this came from. Mechrist said:
"I am an as#@&%e. All I've ever done in my life is be an as#@&%e. When I apologize I come off as an as#@&%e. That doesn't invalidate my apology or make it any less sincere. It is just who I am and I'm fuking sorry. If you don't like it, fuk off. Sorry, I didn't mean that. GFYS... not You specifically, but You collectively, as in all of humanity. God I hate this planet... I wish they had dropped me off on the right one."

You finally posted something I wholeheartedly agree with Wes. Knowing you are a total douchbag (this is something all of the rest of us have known all along) is the first step to personal growth and I wish you the best in your long overdue passage towards trying to become a better person.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:56am PT
I think Wes is spot on most of the time.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 10:59am PT
agreed, I am also pro-Wes, but then most on this site seem to dislike my posts as well.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:02am PT
So

Anyone up for cutting down el-cap tree with me this winter? After that we will ski in and retro bolt the BY..

Mebbe even piss on the midnight lightning bolt.

Ya know I just realized there is a tree growing a bit too close to ML.. Gots to go!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Squishy.... +1+1+1...


You can count me in with the other "Pissed Off Climbers" who want blood.

I may not be able to send 5.13b ....but my opinion matters to me.

I recall this topic.... http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1772094/Joshua-Tree-Ethics

What these PRO climbers did is simply not acceptable. I will continue to monitor this BS and will make all of my future gear purchases based upon just what the $pon$ors of these professionals do.

Sterling Ropes ..... never again!



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Sterling ropes is owned by a conservo fanatic who publicly pushed voting for republican earth scorchers...Perfect sponsor for this guy...

Havn't bought their ropes for ages.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Didn't know that ^^^^
Thanks
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:24am PT
I can respect that a company has enough fiber to stick with an "employee" thru a screw-up . He screwed up and was sorry he got caught.I have seen plenty of bad behavior by climbers and their ego's over the years that has not been "Caught". He is certainly less than perfect, may even be a horse's ass, but I can be too. Sterling will keep him on a short leash, but for now take the heat. Next week this will be out of the Supertopo "news cycle" and the crowd can get on to their next "project".

Very good summary. I have known some employers who would fire a long-time employee for a single mistake. I wouldn't care to do business with such an employer, because people who go through life terrified of making a mistake usually perform more poorly than those free enough to try to do better.

We have a problem, though, when we try to define "mistake." Some of the zealots (I was going to use the word "haters," but I think that's too loaded to be accurate. A lot of the reaction truly represents, in my opinion, genuine revulsion that anyone would even think that about cutting that tree) see this as something different from a "mistake." If I act unintentionally, most would see my action as a "mistake," but what if I act with "bad" intent? After all, the tree didn't "accidentally" get cut.

While I respect that opinion, my personal values favor mercy over harshness. That depends, of course, on the sincerity of repentance, but I cannot condemn Kinder's sponsors if they refuse to disengage from him immediately. Let the climber who is without sin cast the first stone.

I personally have a hard time getting on my high horse in this case, for at least the following reasons:

1. I once swung a mighty hammer. Pin scars on such classics as Serenity Crack and Swan Slab, and almost everything at the base of El Cap, to name just a few of the shorter routes I pounded, bear some of my handiwork;

2. I, and much of my generation, had no problems removing dirt and vegetation from cracks (ironically calling our efforts "gardening") to create a cliffscape suitable for our climbing "artistry;"

3. I remain complicit in a system and ethic that gives Yosemite climbers privileges denied to other Park users; and

4. I have no high horse -- because I'm too short to ride one.

;-)

John
GLillegard

Social climber
Oregon
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Just ordered a Sterling kosmos from their Outlet. Good rope made by evil Conservative Coporation. I don't know how I can live with my self.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:26am PT
[I don't condone cutting down juniper trees at the base of crags, but I have to wonder if the outrage would be the same if the route in question was a perfect splitter that the tree interfered with, instead of a sport route. [/quote]

Yes, it would be slightly better if it was trad
I don't think anyone can argue this logic.

PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:40am PT

The outcome of this may be that you have to secure a permit to put a new drilled route or undrilled route (that would be harder to enforce). The route would be looked at pre construction, during construction and post construction. With easy availability of portable power drills and many more sport climbers it could be a good (necessary) thing. I recall going to Courtwright for the first time a few years ago and finding a 5.4ish face climb bolted every 10+ feet; it was stupid.
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:55am PT
After browsing through these comments, I think it's clear to anyone slightly discerning that most of the "outrage" over the loss of this tree mostly (not completely) stems from a deep, ugly jealousy of Joe's life and talent. Maybe there was a moment of shock about the tree, but it quickly became not about the tree ... not at all. So transparent it breaks my heart, actually. You people don't think he deserves the life he has very much earned for himself (he's not a trustfunder as someone mentioned, in fact he's one of the hardest working professional climbers out there) and you want to try to tear that away from him ... why? One can only guess that it stems from some deeper dissatisfaction or discontent with yourselves. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but I swear that your lives really will be better if you stop posting hateful, jealous, insane, judgmental, and often completely misinformed comments on the Internet about good people in the climbing community.


that was f*#king hilarious. not jealous. just love trees, and don't have an ego so big that i would cut down a juniper for an fa. i have a pretty good time being a mediocre climber, for some of us it is not about being the best. maybe someday you will see it is not all about who climbs the hardest. i am sad that there are so many who have tunnel vision from magazines and the quest for sponcership.
and ethan pringle was there and should have some responsibility in this. when my friends are being as#@&%es i usually let them know, or i am an irresponsible friend. it shouldn't take an internet shitstorm for someone to realize cutting a juniper is wrong.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
I recall going to Courtwright for the first time a few years ago and finding a 5.4ish face climb bolted every 10+ feet; it was stupid.

I can think of several. On Trapper Dome, I didn't realize one of the routes was there until I walked past the second bolt on what I thought was the approach across a slab to the start of the "real" climbing.

The Courtright "beginners'" bolts, though, don't really bother me much, because they serve a useful purpose and didn't involve any more environmental alteration than the bolts. That route I walked past made a perfect first lead for my (then) very young daughters. For my youngest, it was the mental equivalent of Crest Jewel.

It bothers me a whole lot more, however, when I see single-pitch bolted routes close to existing, decently-protected climbs, that have probably been top-roped already. What's the point?

John
ddsstyle

Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
I guess now it comes down to whether or not you care if this mans professional climbing career suffers serious damage. Some do care. Many others do not. My initial feelings were very hostile. I wrote emails to his sponsors expressing my opinion and posted negative things in the original thread. My hostility is still somewhat present, but I think the lumps have been dealt out people. Joe Kinder has now owned up to it (Regardless of what you think of his blog post, he owned up to it. He admitted to it. Maybe it was a self serving apology, but he stopped lying) and has been thoroughly embarrassed. Lets see what he does in the next six months.... On a side note, three of his sponsors wrote me a personal email back. Gregory, Sanuk, and E. Mtn Sports. They offered an apology and all three asked me what I thought of Joe Kinders apology. anyone else receive feedback for sponsors that they wrote? If so, what are your thoughts on the sponsors feedback? any sponsor besides Sterling put out a press release?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
I don't like sponsored, professional climbers that climb grades I don't understand, so I don't like sponsors either. Any of them.

I climb in a hemp loincloth and feet dipped in molten tire rubber.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
EMS wrote me back and said they accept his apology. When I googled the EMS guy and JK there were numerous videos they had produced together. Sounds like they are friends and more than business partners.

After reading alot of the posts I think this is bigger than JK and that new route installs in sensitive areas can easily be destructive to the environment. When you add the lack of knowledge of the installer it is a guarenteed environmental hazard.

It reminds me of little kids building tree forts; it was really fun but we didn't know ( or think about it) that trees don't like nails.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Like I say either we get a legit excuse for the nuking or I put a topo and map to the crag here later today.

Hey bigshot, what about your "outing the crag later today" huh?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
. After browsing through these comments, I think it's clear to anyone slightly discerning that most of the "outrage" over the loss of this tree mostly (not completely) stems from a deep, ugly jealousy of Joe's life and talent. Maybe there was a moment of shock about the tree, but it quickly became not about the tree ... not at all. So transparent it breaks my heart, actually. You people don't think he deserves the life he has very much earned for himself (he's not a trustfunder as someone mentioned, in fact he's one of the hardest working professional climbers out there) and you want to try to tear that away from him ... why? One can only guess that it stems from some deeper dissatisfaction or discontent with yourselves. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but I swear that your lives really will be better if you stop posting hateful, jealous, insane, judgmental, and often completely misinformed comments on the Internet about good people in the climbing community.


Lol
There's that delusion again.
Really it makes it hard to try and stick up for your friend.
Are you honestly trying to help your friend ?
It's this kind of self absorbed garbage that possibly caused the incident in the first place.
Really, a troll who despised joe couldn't write a better letter to illustrate the stupidity of this situation and it's obvious that many in joe's circle really don't understand the seriousness of cutting down protected trees for the sake of a stupid climbing route.
If you care about your friend you really should just shut up.
The people commenting here are not children who dream of working for free gear and living of Kraft dinner meals. Many are Doctors, have PHDs, are attorneys, nurses, scientists and make more money in a day than Joe makes in a year spraying.
From the looks of his twitter account he was seriously emotionally compromised and posting stuff that my daughter would have been embarrassed of writing at three years old.
Grow up and stop displaying the same ignorance that got your friend in this position in the first place.


squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
It's a culture problem, there's no way it will change as long as there's money to be made and WE keep allowing it. The only way to change culture is to shock it, like this event has done, or let it evolve slowly. Sadly, the earth isn't going to give us a second or third chance as we learn, the second option is unacceptable. If Joe wants to do something good, he would drop all his sponsors himself, he would step down and admit he is a poor ambassador of the sport, he would prop someone else up as a better example and we will remember his positive contribution, if at least, as an example in what not to do.

He's producing and he can continue working in the background, but he should honorably give up that front-man status...

Like the soft iron and pitons of old, like the articles which changed the course of climbing history forever. I am reminded of Murdering the Impossible. Joe now has this opportunity to reiterate the lesson for a new generation of instant gratification junkies.

Have we already seen him squander the opportunity like a child? I doubt he even realizes his own potential, teachable moments like these don't come along too often. He should come put my ass in it's place and prove me wrong, but I don't think he has the head or pair to do it.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Riley,

Never met him, I'm just sick of the droning judgemental blather that windbags like you continually put forth, and I could'nt give a sh#t about your fuking credentials or earning power either. The fact that you would offer that information as some sort of leverage on this subject makes you look that much more pathetic. Give it a rest blowhard.



Don't condone him cutting down the either.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
all I can feel as a fellow climber is the shame of it.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Never met him, just sick of the droning judgemental blather that windbags like you continually put forth. Give it a rest blowhard.

Hey now, there is important trolling going on here, clear aside..
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I received a response from the president of Sterling. They still don't get it.

"Sterling does not condone this behavior. But keep in mind, that in many areas around the world,people cut down old growth Junipers to build houses and even to fuel fires. We need to keep this in perspective."


And this gem...

"He is not working to save his reputation, or his sponsorships(because he knows none of us have an ounce of tolerance for poor behavior), he is working to make this right because he loves climbing."

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
"""Never met him, I'm just sick of the droning judgemental blather that windbags like you continually put forth, and I could'nt give a sh#t about your fuking credentials or earning power either. Makes you look that much more pathetic. Give it a rest blowhard."""

Fair enough, but we are just commenting on an event, as you are, and accuracy is important.
Plenty of people have strong feelings on this subject and many are trying to be fair.
Is it that hard to understand many of us just don't want as#@&%es cutting down 1000 year old trees?
I don't believe in snitching and tattle tale stuff for any reason but comments like yours make us think that our initial instincts were correct and there really is a greater problem here.

Comments like yours will get the crag shut down and just cause more people to write his sponsors.... Just saying...
There are legitimate issues here.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Yes, but at what point do you start to let things rest? Each point has been made hundreds of times over between this thread and the first one. The witch hunt is getting a bit extreme. What do you all propose as punishment for the Rim Fire starter? Life? Death?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
True
I have no problem letting it rest
I stated as much yesterday .
Cheers ..
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
That little exchange worked out perfectly!
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Yes, but at what point do you start to let things rest?

When those involved show integrity, when the community hears what it needs to hear. It's obvious that hasn't happened yet. All we have seen is a cover up, deleted threads, excuses, lies and veiled apologies. The relationship between the business of climbing and the sport of climbing is clashing. Who will win? Which side are you on?

I am voting with my wallet, that won't change. And I am using this keyboard to voice what I think is a fair assessment of the events. UNACCEPTABLE!!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Joe Kindling

Missed that the first time, hahaha.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Credit: drljefe
jghedge

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:05pm PT


http://www.ethanpringle.com/2013/10/22/the-tree-cutting-incident/
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
There Squish, squash it.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
And a couple more gems from the president of Sterling.

"If Joe denied or lied about this, that is not the story I heard, but it doesn't mean he didn't. I don't know."

Well why don't you ask him?



And this...

"He is being held acoountable for this by all of his sponsors."

I asked how, awaiting a response.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Not a word from Ethan about why he just stood there while two trees were cut down? Maybe he was looking the other way when the first one was started, but surely he could have stopped number two?

Instead he just drones on about Kinder's huge mistake. I guess only the actual saw wielder has any responsibility?

If that's the case, next time they just need to bring along an unknown buddy to do the chopping and it's all good.

Disappointed in Sterling's attitude also. People using trees for firewood in remote areas to keep their families from freezing have little to do with route blazing for sport climbing. Oh well.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
Why are they continuing to ask for forgiveness for an unacceptable act?
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
From Petzl:

But as actions speak louder than words, we're encouraged that in addition to paying a fine to the Forest Service, Joe has also decided to donate $1,000 to the Sierra Nevada Alliance, whose mission is to protect and restore the natural resources of the Sierra Nevada for future generations while promoting sustainable communities. Joe will also donate a week of his time to tree planting and other service in Yosemite National Park.

That's what Joe needed to do to gain my "forgiveness" and respect. I did not like his apology and find him to be too self-promotional for my taste. However, he has stepped up and is taking accountability for his poor choices. Good on him for that. IMHO, this issue is closed.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
Jesus H Godblasted christ. Squishy why don't you go kick a dog or whatever it takes to make yourself feel like you have passed enough judgement for the f*#king day.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
How many people in this thread crying over the cutting down of a single tree are going to go out and vote for politicians that want to drill for oil in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge?

Or is that okay because it's not in California?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
How many people are going to keep comparing this to something it isn't?
MisterE

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I was wondering today how Joey's "always psyched" mentality is holding up.

This will test his devotion to the stoke.
julton

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
I'd still like to see a public caning.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
With a juniper switch, right?

How many people here thought it was wrong for Potter to climb Delicate Arch?
How many people here thought it was wrong for Thesenga to set a frickkin' boulder on fire?
See, those are way more comparable.
DanaB

climber
CT
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
How many people are going to keep comparing this to something it isn't? Bold Text


You know, if you insist that people not use this approach, 99% of the posts on supertopo would disappear. If two things are similar . . .
DanaB

climber
CT
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
I was wondering today how Joey's "always psyched" mentality is holding up.

This will test his devotion to the stoke.



Pretty damn funny.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
I think the reason for the outrage is to counter the precedent Joe has set for other sport climbers. "It is a cool route, the action was justified". True, climbers have performed dubious deeds in the past and to some degree got away with it as few knew as there was no internet.

To put it into perspective, consider the pillorying of the first ascentionists of Wings of Steel. The slam fest still goes on today.

Why? To discourage others from following them down that path.

If Joe thinks corporate sponsorships will carry him into old age based on putting up the best .12 in the world, he is in for a rude awakening.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Casually chatting with my new neighbor this evening. I am going to take care of his 3 dogs for the weekend. Anyways he is from New Mexico and was asking me what kind of firewood we burn here in VT. My answer is mostly Maple, Oak, Beech, Ash, Iron wood, white and yellow birch and cherry. He tells me that back home in NM they burn mostly Pinion and Juniper. He is a super nice guy and a good neighbor. Good thing he is not a climber. He would be dead meat for sure in this crowd......
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Hey tradmanclimbs, there is a big difference between pinyon and juniper firewood and a few solitary, very old juniper trees growing out of the base of some beautiful granite crag . . . simply no comparison. Pinyon and juniper grow in vast areas of the southwestern states and assume an almost brush-like status. The trees that were vandalized are much more unique and therefore intrinsically valuable than common firewood. Like it or not, there is a major distinction between the two.

I personally do not wish ill against anyone or anything . . . I just simply have a low tolerance for self entitlement and arrogance in a world where there are much greater concerns before us.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
As if tradmanclimbs is taking care of a dog? No sh#t?? That almost deserves its own thread:-)


I liked johntp's post above, lots of good stuff here actually if you feel like reading & comprehending at the same time.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
The common theme I see from 90% of you guys and gals is LOW TOLERENCE and a Savage Bloodlust.....
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Casually chatting with my new neighbor this evening. I am going to take care of his 3 dogs for the weekend. Anyways he is from New Mexico and was asking me what kind of firewood we burn here in VT. My answer is mostly Maple, Oak, Beech, Ash, Iron wood, white and yellow birch and cherry. He tells me that back home in NM they burn mostly Pinion and Juniper. He is a super nice guy and a good neighbor. Good thing he is not a climber. He would be dead meat for sure in this crowd......

Seriously? There is a big difference between firewood gathered in an area under the USDA regulations and whacking a tree to create another .12 sport climb.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Johntp. the reason for the outrage is about 10% concern over the tree and 90% pack syndrome blood lust.
Daphne

Trad climber
Northern California
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
This the modern version of a Pillory.

Pillory:

Defendants convicted of notorious crimes such as attempted sodomy, seditious words, extortion, fraud, and perjury in the eighteenth century were sometimes punished publicly in the pillory as a way of destroying their reputations and signalling public distaste for their crimes.

Set up in busy streets or open spaces, such as Cheapside or Charing Cross, where crowds could easily gather, the culprit (most were men) was placed on a platform with his arms and head secured through holes in the wooden structure. He was normally required to stay there one hour.
The pillory turned so that crowds on all sides could get a good view, and could express their disapproval of the offence by pelting the offender with rotten eggs and vegetables, blood and guts from slaughterhouses, dead cats, mud and excrement, and even bricks and stones. Some died from the abuse, despite increasing efforts by constables to protect the convict, by forming a ring around the pillory.
In some cases of seditious words, however, the crowd applauded the convict, pelting him with flowers, and collected money to present to him after his release.
Approximately five to ten people a year were punished in this way in London, but concerns about disorder and subversion of the purpose of the punishment meant that after 1775 few people were pilloried for riot, seditious words, or any felony. An 1816 statute restricted the pillory to perjury only and the punishment was abolished in 1837.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#corporal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory

Or, maybe, just the modern version of the Stocks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks

Stocks are devices used internationally, in medieval, Renaissance and colonial American times as a form of physical punishment involving public humiliation. The stocks partially immobilized its victims and they were often exposed in a public place such as the site of a market to the scorn of those who passed by. Since the purpose of putting offenders in the stocks was to expose them to ridicule and mockery, passers-by were encouraged to throw mud, rotten eggs, moldy fruit and vegetables, smelly fish, offal, and excrement (both animal and human) at those being punished.[citation needed]

[edit] I am not posting the above from a pro-joe or anti-joe alignment. Rather, I am noting that this kind of public shaming has a long history and isn't confined to the age of the internet.

My personal belief is that he was terribly wrong to cut the tree. His focus was on climbing and not on the environment. Youth is never an excuse, only an explanation for his behavior. As a 51 year old, i tend to see 29 as pretty young. To me, this is the universe knocking on his door demanding that he learn something. If he takes the hint and dedicates his life to generativity and stewardship, it would help toward making up for the loss of that dear tree.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
I just simply have a low tolerance for self entitlement and arrogance in a world where there are much greater concerns before us.

Yet you continue to exhibit both self entitlement and arrogance...bet you are real proud of your thread huh? hypocrite.

Johntp...not that it matters at all, and I mean this because cutting the tree was a bad move, but the route is number grades harder than 5.12. Get the facts straight.

Tradman, well said. Your exactly correct in your last post.
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
I think your wrong Tradman, the reason so many have posted here is that unlike you they feel indignant over the cutting of said tree for access to a (rock climb),period. They understand the intrinsic value of a tree species that are among the oldest growing in the world. That's great that you value trees for the wood that provides heat for your house but if that is all trees mean to you I feel sorry for you.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
This the modern version of a Pillory.

Daphne, no offense but there there is no comparison. This is a calling out session directed toward the culprits in an act of vandalism that reflects very negatively on the "sport" of rock climbing. We have enough sensitive access and land use issues as it is without this kind of unnecessary negative imagery.

Arriza, I don't give a rats ass about this thread, unfortunately it is not even about climbing at this point. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, I am simply expressing thoughts.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Oct 22, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Seems the consensus is that the act was deplorable.

But now, in the usual, pathetic Supertopo way, the legions want to rant on, ad nauseum.

Time to move on.....
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Johntp...not that it matters at all, and I mean this because cutting the tree was a bad move, but the route is letter grades harder than 5.12. Get the facts straight before you spew, rather skew, the argument in your favor.

I don't give a rat's ass what the grade was, it could be .16; the end does not justify the means. You did not respond to my statement that there is a difference between legally harvested wood versus whacking a live tree illegally.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
I'm just kind of bummed to think that a portion of the hard earned money I spend on equipment, which I depend on for my safety, will go to support the recreational lifestyle of a doofus, whose actions potentially threaten my ability to enjoy the same activity that supports him. Not that he is defined by this one thing, but it seems pretty exceptionally dumb. Also, they looked like pretty cool trees. Only a couple stumps will remain for the next few generations, which will definitely change the "vibe" for future visitors. Finally, maybe it isn't similar, but I heard that the Black Corridor was once a really nice place for a picnic, filled with birds and wildlife...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
You finally posted something I wholeheartedly agree with Wes.

fukwad
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Johntp. the reason for the outrage is about 10% concern over the tree and 90% pack syndrome blood lust.

Ok. If 90% of those on a very experienced forum disagree with the 10%, they are all wrong and I'm still right. Narcissistic logic at it's best.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Arriza, I don't give a rats ass about this thread
Kalimon, yes you do, the title says it all.

unfortunately it is not even about climbing at this point.
....because thats what you intended right?


You did not respond to my statement that there is a difference between legally harvested wood versus whacking a live tree illegally.
John, that question wasn't asked of me but I'll answer it. There's a difference yes. Joe poached a juniper, he f*#ked up, he knows it.
tom Carter

Social climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
We have all really really screwed up in our day.

We are having a hard time separating ourselves from the emotions. But now I think its best to see what good can come of this.

I know, i know, but who needs another round of vitriolic flaming shooters - it poisons everything.

Lets encourage Joe and hope he makes a bold move, to share and teach and hence make the value exceed the cost of the Juniper.

The balls in his court.

Imagine facing all this. Lets calm down and encourage him to be bold and honest and creative.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
my last comment...

others have done more by using less, and they will be remembered longer
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Thanks, Tom. Your post is golden amongst the mud.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
Imagine facing all this. Lets calm down and encourage him to be bold and honest and creative.

I think he has already demonstrated his creativity.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 22, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Dean/Cragman...at this point I completely agree. What's done is one. Time to move on.

The tree suffered. We all know that.

Joe suffered from the backlash of the climbing community at large that he literally works full-time to represent (not propping him up, but he is a full time pro whose job it is to reflect the best of our sport). As well as the goodwill of his sponsors (I have heard back from some and am impressed with the concern they've had for this incident).

Sterling Ropes in particular had a long and thoughtful response to my direct questions that really made me think of the bigger picture of what this one act affected. For climbers, for access issues, for those who make the gear and equipment we all use and who had nothing to do with Joe's actions but will suffer the potential consequences, the Tahoe climbing community...the list goes on from one person's act.

His sponsors did not condone this. But they've worked with him enough and he's given enough back to them and the climbing world as a whole as an ambassador for as long as he has that at this point, I truly believe he realizes that with one stupid act he threw away so much goodwill of our sport as a whole. That must be a very heavy weight on one's shoulders.

I hope he's going to pick himself up and move forward from this and be a better spokesman for stewardship of the land than we could hope for. Who knows...maybe his redemption path will be making those kids in the gym today more environmentally aware as they go out into the natural world later. And be a great next generation of stewards of the lands in which we climb.

Maybe we'll all learn more from this one act. What's done is done. I can only hope for everything to just move forward from this point.

And for those new folks who came into the threads calling us anonymous internet cowards, my name is Beth Shilliday. But those already on ST regularly know that cause I'm a longtime poster. Which is why I don't sign it to any post. But I will on this one so you all know how I feel.
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Time to move on as has been suggested? Perhaps for most so forgive me but for some let me describe the juniper; a picture is worth a thousand words. You'll find these on ST's Great Tree Thread:
Credit: Charlie D.
Credit: Charlie D.
Credit: Charlie D.
Credit: Charlie D.
I think what is so astounding and admirable about the juniper is its perseverance. It grows despite what nature throws at it with specimens in the Sierra upwards toward 3,000 years old.

I've read up thread defense which I can appreciate coming from the hearts of friends and even those who don't know JK that admire his skill and dedication. There are some who need to understand while California can certainly grow trees, the juniper is a special one. I burn wood to heat my home with black oak, pine, fir and cedar, these trees grow like weeds on the Western Slope. The juniper however is here for the long haul.

I've often sat in front of them thinking how my life has had its challenges as I can see in the lines of the juniper. They are ancient souls, if only they could talk.

The act is done and what concerns me now is JK, he is being bullied. I hope his family and friends will gather around and help him through, this blasting on ST isn't the end for him. It's not going to be easy, but like all things in life he has choices on how to play the cards, one of which he chose himself.

I hope for him success, I have to believe based on what I've read he is a good man and a hard worker. But I also have to believe he is young which in my book is the get out of jail card. He has the chance to make things right and time to do it.

I suppose in a way he's been struck, not so different than the a juniper being hit by an avalanche or lightning. It will shape him and I truly hope into a soul as beautiful as the juniper, sky's witness.

Charlie D.

WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
They are ancient souls, if only they could talk.

Every living entity talks.

One must learn their way of speaking to hear them.

Even the deaf can hear them .....
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
But I also have to believe he is young

Just how old is he?
ChizzDizzle

Trad climber
Rocklin,CA
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Thank you Charlie D!!!! The relatives of the victim are speaking in your pics.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 22, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
.
Oct 22, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
With a juniper switch, right?

How many people here thought it was wrong for Potter to climb Delicate Arch?
How many people here thought it was wrong for Thesenga to set a frickkin' boulder on fire?
See, those are way more comparable.

Ironically I thought both of these examples were an incredible over reaction by the community.
Just a couple rocks - pretty much zero harm done and yet they both lost their jobs.
So these are good examples to put this, much worse, situation in perspective.
Climbers although most of us ( me for sure) are hypocrites and not much better than the next consumer half the time, still identify with their community in strongly respectful and environmentally conscientious ways. This has nothing to do with personality, or hating or jealousy, or public flogging or blood lust. It has to to with the closest thing most of us have to a religious doctrine. You respect nature... Ya know?
Sure it's kind of f*#ked up and in the end we will probably destroy everything anyway.
But the analogy that occurs to me is this: sure we eat chicken but it doesn't make it ok to grab some baby birds out of a nest and kill them for the purpose of a rad stoke.

And we might not be able to rip the nuts off some c*#ks@cker oil company but we can at the very least hold the folks in what we perceive as our own community to a higher standard.

And please forgive my obvious blow hard nature.
I'm just speaking out loud as I try to figure out my own feelings as well.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
From Ethan:

Route developers are often faced with tough decisions that most climbers never have to make...

... and should therefore be knowledgeable about the environment they are in before they inflict irreparable damage. They may consider asking the locals or doing an hour or so of research. We've all identified plants... junipers are pretty easy to identify... you all have iPhones, right?

BTW, glad to see Joe appears to be willing to make amends. Hopefully others will learn from this mistake.
jfailing

Trad climber
PDX, North Slope, The Open Road
Oct 22, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
The spew of hatred in this thread is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is a perfect example of internet bullying.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:12am PT
Charlie D- thank you for your post.

I suspect that is how many feel though I can only speak...er,write for myself and you've pulled the right words out of my head.

If Joe or Ethan read this I hope you take Charlie's post to heart.

And WB hits the nail on the head (again). All living things speak. You just have to know how to listen.

cheers
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:48am PT
I find out after work tonight what the dog duties are going to be.... Yikes what have I gotten myself into.......
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:14am PT
Set a boulder on fire? Wow, I've missed some stuff. Damn my short attention span and limited research skilz.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:18am PT
Why are they continuing to ask for forgiveness for an unacceptable act?

Because acceptable acts require no forgiveness.

John
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:50am PT
I agree it is time to move on; the deed was done, consequences have followed, lessons learned, but still, when i look at pictures of old growth junipers i wonder how someone could get to age 30, living the outdoor life of a climber, and still take a saw to such a majestic, iconic crowning of the natural world.
gf

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:03am PT
Jim,
These are the eternal mysteries....
Next thing i know you'll be lying awake wondering if theres' a dog
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Jim, same way someone can do this ..
They just don't give a f*#k

Credit: Riley Wyna
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 08:38am PT
It grows despite what nature throws at it with specimens in the Sierra upwards toward 3,000 years old.

That's the beauty of it.. the juniper does not grow old despite what nature throws at it. It grows old because of what nature throws at it.

Imagine, 500, 1000 years of life sawed away in 15, 20 minutes, for a stupid rock climb...

DMT
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:05am PT
On a positive note about the tree.

The soul of this tree was released from the bondage of standing still in one place for thousands of years.

Things are not always completely what it seems .........
mt10910

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:09am PT
I thought most folks loved
Wood
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:11am PT
Thanks Werner.

DMT
plasticmullet

climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:36am PT
On a positive note about the tree.

The soul of this tree was released from the bondage of standing still in one place for thousands of years.

Things are not always completely what it seems .........


What a bunch of utter BS....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:40am PT
WB speaks the truth.

As the tree was being cut two hawks visited us. One landed on our post with a rodent in its talons, the other swooped within feet of our window. The spirit of the great juniper has taken refuge on our lot, communing with the water babies exiled from the sacred rock with a 4 lane highway running through it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:20am PT
I thought most folks loved
Wood

Absolutely! Some of us even extended that love to lumber. When I was in junior high, we had an English teacher who punished unruly students (e.g. me) by making us stay after school and sand desks. As a result, we miscreants formed the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Wood.

The SPCW was singularly unsuccessful in stopping the mayhem caused by sandpaper.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:23am PT
I too love wood, and wood products. I dont own ONE synthetic stocked gun other than my carry piece.

Chainsaw art has come a long way too! Using wood in a responsible manner is a very healthy thing for forests. And a bonus for us humans.

I even have a myrtlewood quail from Oregon..
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:28am PT
Hehe

Ron loves wood ..
Chicken f*#ker !!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:31am PT
Chainsaw art is never responsible.

Nor is it art, lol.

Abomination to the senses.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:31am PT
it AINT art till someone DOESNT like it..
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:38am PT
In that case, you are a Picasso.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:46am PT
HAHAHAHAHAH, I got it, HAHAHAHAAAH you know, because Ron is such as as#@&%e...
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
WBraun

climber

Oct 23, 2013 - 09:05am PT
On a positive note about the tree.

The soul of this tree was released from the bondage of standing still in one place for thousands of years.

Things are not always completely what it seems .........

How do you know?

Maybe the tree was waiting on a friend. They had big plans to trade pinecones and build tree wells for hikers and early season climbers to fall into.

Maybe the tree was looking forward to talking chit with the squirrels in the morning.

We have know idea what this tree had planned.

Sutpid Yoseicans, always projecting their beliefs on other people/perennial plants.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Junipers don't swap pine cones. Fact.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 23, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
14" dbh Juniper fire Woodfords canyon
14" dbh Juniper fire Woodfords canyon
Credit: Ron Anderson


Juniper Warrior^^^^ One of the worst lightning assignments you can hope for.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...

Oct 23, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Junipers don't swap pine cones. Fact.

DMT

ok point taken, maybe they were saving up their berries for the next gin and tonic festival.

Who is going to apologize for the lost gin and tonics???!!!!
We have a lot of thirsty people around here.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Cheers!

(but not with gin)

DM (burp!) T
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
I went to find some of my own photos. I think these are all junipers, but I don't know for sure. Is a picture still worth a thousand words these days?






















drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
I think these are all junipers, but I don't know for sure.



squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Looks like it to me, but I'm no dendrologists..
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Maybe ask Joe Kinder.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Hey Joe, do those look like Junipers? I'm just guessing here but I bet many species of tree can get stunted and appear young while still being very old.

I have run into photographers from Europe who were seeking photos of some these rare trees, I hear there's a specific species in Desolation Wilderness that grows nowhere else. Did you cut that tree down anywhere near Desolation Wilderness?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Nice pictures, squishy. Where did you take them?

John
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
In the South Lake Tahoe Wilderness...You can see why this subject has crawled up my as#@&%e...I love those trees...
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Amazing pics of an amazing area. You people are so lucky down there to have that at your doorstep.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Are bolts allowed in the Tahoe Wilderness?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
they are allowed ONLY by the localized policy of the USFS and BLM.. TECHNICALLY bolts violate title 36 code of fed regulations part 261.6 H i believe- which states " damaging ANY natural feature". I know from experience this is a catch all sub paragraph for 261 section.
Natural features being rocks, trees meadows and more.

It is only by the GRACE of land managers that bolts are here.
adrian korosec

climber
Tucson
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
The tree Joe Kinder cut down was a national treasure. There should be jail time and big fines.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
I just had such a great conversation with the access fund, some of the most constructive stuff I have heard on any subject. I will admit it helped me care about things which were beyond my own selfish anger.

The access fund is obviously disappointed by the cutting down of the tree and feel it's a very important issue. They agree with everyone that cutting the tree down was wrong, no excuses.

They are not ready to release any kind of public statement, they do not have any plans to do so in the near future. But I am willing to bet they will address it later depending on how it all plays out. I think they are best positioned within this community to address these kinds of issues and help spur change.

From what I can gather, this incident has the potential to become a historic event, mainly for the millennial generation. Whether or not Joe understands the magnitude of that statement, I do not know, but I think we'll find out.

Most people don't think so, and I have placed myself in that camp. But, I don't know him, only the image and character he plays. Till this sentence, I have been calling for his grindstone and for the community to shun him. I still don't think he should be sponsored by greedy companies, they have shown through their responses that stewardship is not as important as making money. BUT, I do think this is an opportunity for Joe to play a big role in climbing's future historiography. Based on what I have seen of him he's gonna need a lot of help and mentoring and I hope he reaches out to the right people. I won't ask for his head or expulsion, I'd ask the community to help him, whoever is best equipped and closest.

In order to change the culture of this newer generation of climbers he will need to capitalize on this event and use it to address the real problem. He has obviously learned (the hard way) what the problem is (utter ignorance of environmental ethics in climbing). Now we need to see if he has the maturity to endure a good bashing from dickheads like me, while turning around and addressing the problem in a positive way. Time to suck it up and drive on like you got a pair.






Joe,

If you step up and play this right, you will have my forgiveness and my gratitude (it's not worth anything by the way, I can only climb 5.8). Make this about the greater good and stop being so selfish (leave out what you think, what you did, and don't make excuses, stand tall by your mistakes, own them). The problem is a culture that doesn't respect it roots and I am not some old timer "has been" complaining from my deathbed, I am genX. Read the old climbing books, understand the history of environmental ethics in climbing, it's actually fascinating. Identify knowledge gaps within your corner of this community and go out there and fill them. You speak their language and you can translate the past into the future. You gotta shoot the moon Joe, but do you have the cards?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Man you People up on you mighty high horses are fckin pathetic. Suppose you self richous hippys have never sat arround a campfire playing rosewood and mahogony guitars to the beat of hand drums made of koko bolo and exotic endangered brazilian wood..
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
And NO I do Not think he should have cut the tree down but I do think that most of the folks on this thread are pileing on the hate without even realizeing that they are just going allong with the crowd..
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Then you don't understand the importance of environmental ethics in California climbing. Lets just call it ignorance and move on..
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
"most of the folks on this thread are pileing on the hate without even realizeing that they are just going allong with the crowd.. "



That's something Kinder should have considered before he cut down a National Treasure.

What did he expect? A pat on the back?
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Oct 23, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
Why does everyone hate on the lumberjack? He gave you armchair climbers something to bitch about.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
^^^^

Jealous of the attention he's not getting.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Holy sh#t, ANOTHER thread on this?



The Supertopo Flame keeps a-burnin'....



squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
did you really just notice this thread gdavis?
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
Hey Joe, do those look like Junipers? I'm just guessing here but I bet many species of tree can get stunted and appear young while still being very old.

Hilarious!

The reason I keep beating the horse is because this is not something I feel should be swept under the rug and forgotten.

Hell, the "Climbing Down" thread went for what, 2,000+ posts? That route can be chopped and the holes filled. There is no restoring of those trees.

From what I can gather on the web, Joe is 29. Hardly young in my book, so I'm not in the camp to write it off as youthful stupidity. I don't hate Joe, it's not worth the emotion and I don't know him. I hate what he did.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
holy sh#t balls...

someone needs to start a boob thread.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Credit: The Larry
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Oct 23, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Credit: drljefe
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Hahahhahhahahaa! Larry! You never let me down!
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 23, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
Squish, your first post today was at 10:46 and you're still at it. Get a life man.
Maybe you outta spend some time squishing the festering boils developing on your backside from sitting in a chair all day hen pecking your keyboard.
ChizzDizzle

Trad climber
Rocklin,CA
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Poor Little Joey made NPR. My wife was listening earlier today and told me they have a story about it. Any publicity is good publicity right?
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Squishy, you are posting teenage porn now huh? Pure class. You're just dying for attention aren't you.

KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 23, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Sqiushy, way to delete the graphic picture of the teenage girl you just posted. I took a screen shot of the entire post, username (that would be you) and all just in case you wanted me to re-post it later for you. It took all of two minutes for you to come to your senses and get rid of it huh?. Momentary lapse of judgement maybe? It happens. So, how long should the people of this forum crucify you now for being a pervert?


Now, if you'd just beat it all together. You ain't helping any causes.
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 23, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Man you People up on you mighty high horses are fckin pathetic. Suppose you self richous hippys have never sat arround a campfire playing rosewood and mahogony guitars to the beat of hand drums made of koko bolo and exotic endangered brazilian wood..


Tradmanclimbs why don't you go play your mahogany guitar by the fireside and burn your Maple, Oak, Beech, Ash, Iron wood, white and yellow birch and cherry as you clearly don't get it.

I myself have been in arboriculture for 22 years and in that time I have removed many, many trees. Most were dead,in decline or a hazard with a target. I also burn firewood among other things but I still have the ability to see that some trees and tree species are far more valuable than others based on many criteria. It is sad that you can't grasp this.
You also mentioned your neighbour who burns juniper in New Mexico as if all junipers are the same. The junipers in the Pinyon juniper woodland of New Mexico consist of three other species of juniper all very common and spread across many states in the west. Juniperus occidentalis var. australis is neither common or widespread as it only grows in the mountain areas of California and NW Nevada.
Saying that we are all a bunch of hippie tree huggers because we feel strongly about this is quite simply a joke as I'm sure ST users are a very diverse group and come from all kinds of backgrounds and environments.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 24, 2013 - 01:34am PT
I have no idea what the age of the female was in the photo, and honestly I didn't bother to look and evaluate her age before posting the meme, I read the caption and thought it would fit the boob distraction, but I realized it was a distraction in itself and deleted it..
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 24, 2013 - 04:03am PT
Sorry for the hippy comment. I do get the part of the really old and cool tree. I also see through the bullshit and recognize a rabid lynch mob when I see one. Lynch mobs being what they are the mob is never as just as they think they are.
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Oct 24, 2013 - 04:41am PT
"In the South Lake Tahoe Wilderness...You can see why this subject has crawled up my as#@&%e...I love those trees" by Squishy

Great photo's Squishy

I can understand why some here are really fired up over this--for many reasons.

Plenty of people; including me, have done stupid moves which they regret.

I'm sure Joe has learned the hard way on this one.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 24, 2013 - 05:23am PT
The 5.7 TR community can forgive him for being a trees-chopping sporto sponsored wanker...

but first, Let's write another 100 posts today to make he KNOWS he haz done da wrong.

Credit: patrick compton
gf

climber
Oct 24, 2013 - 09:01am PT

http://gregorypacks.com/life-show?fid=on-the-trail&cid=Climbing_the_HULK%21

you know patrick-based on this article it might be reasonable to think a more appropriate piece of gear being used might be something like a saw blade -it would seem mr kinder has more practice using it than placing actual gear....
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 25, 2013 - 01:30pm PT

Juicer


Trad climber

SLC






Oct 21, 2013 - 10:43am PT

This discussion would be better for the communities involved if it was constructive, and Joe is likely to have mandatory service hours to help with a brochure or other actions.

I know there are places in and around the Sierra that could use some love. What about Stoney Point, for example.

Juicer.... don't worry about Stoney Point. It gets tons of love from the folks who climb there...
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Nov 15, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
Controversy Friday
ChizzDizzle

Trad climber
Rocklin,CA
Mar 17, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Is this route still AWESOME!!! And safe??
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