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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 13, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
But now when someone gets a particular policy canceled and replaced by another one that offers more coverage and better value, I'm supposed conclude that our president is Satan himself.

Tens of millions are finding that they can NOT get their existing policy "replaced by another one that offers more coverage and better value." But, I guess that this fact is just "anecdotes" that are really no "evidence" of a problem at all.

Perhaps you'll take as "evidence" that the President himself is embattled and apologizing for this FACT, because the Dems are running scared of serious backlash at this point.

It is now widely known and demonstrable FACT that what you are saying is simply false. Rather than to pretend that tens of millions are not being screwed by this debacle, you could legitimately continue discussion by at least having the intellectual honesty to acknowledge facts as facts.

You COULD legitimately argue that tens of millions were getting screwed prior to Obamacare, and I would instantly agree. You COULD argue that the President could hardly have been expected to foresee all the side-effects that would emerge from this law, and I would instantly agree (after all, they had to "pass it to know what it really says"). I could agree on all sorts of points.

But we would have to first agree to agree on the FACTS. You get nowhere by denying the facts. And it is FACT that tens of millions are having their policies CANCELED with NO comparable-valued policies available anywhere.

Not "more coverage." Not "better value." Nope! Simply not the case, and I've seen it first-hand, as I posted up-thread. And when the President himself is apologizing for the very FACT that you now deny, well, that indicates that you are not taking the facts very seriously.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
J.Shiloh and madbolter1 are making some excellent points.

Single payer may be a way to go, but funding it is where the rubber meets the road.
I like vice tax ideas, but everyone will have to have some minimal skin in the game.
I know there are many advocates of Canadian, French and other healthcare systems and I have heard many good things about them. There are also the anecdotal stories of someone coming to America from those countries to have procedures done. Clearly no one system is perfect.

I may be wrong, but I have also read that in Europe they use VAT (consumption tax) to fund their programs. Without researching it, does anyone know if that is true?
VAT's are somewhat regressive tax systems that hit the poor the hardest.
(Inflation is the most insidious regressive "tax"...watch out for that soon).


As far as our current partisan stalemate in the corrupt Imperial city of DC, someone once wrote:
The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then they get elected and prove it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 13, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
it is FACT that tens of millions are having their policies CANCELED with NO comparable-valued policies available anywhere.

source?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 13, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
"A group of Occupy Wall Street activists has bought almost $15m of Americans' personal debt over the last year as part of the Rolling Jubilee project to help people pay off their outstanding credit.

Rolling Jubilee, set up by Occupy's Strike Debt group following the street protests that swept the world in 2011, launched on 15 November 2012. The group purchases personal debt cheaply from banks before "abolishing" it, freeing individuals from their bills.

By purchasing the debt at knockdown prices the group has managed to free $14,734,569.87 of personal debt, mainly medical debt, spending only $400,000.

"We thought that the ratio would be about 20 to 1," said Andrew Ross, a member of Strike Debt and professor of social and cultural analysis at New York University. He said the team initially envisaged raising $50,000, which would have enabled it to buy $1m in debt.

"In fact we've been able to buy debt a lot more cheaply than that."

The group is able to buy debt so cheaply due to the nature of the "secondary debt market". If individuals consistently fail to pay bills from credit cards, loans, or medical insurance the bank or lender that issued the funds will eventually cut its losses by selling that debt to a third party. These sales occur for a fraction of the debt’s true values – typically for five cents on the dollar – and debt-buying companies then attempt to recoup the debt from the individual debtor and thus make a profit."

....

""Our purpose in doing this, aside from helping some people along the way – there's certainly many, many people who are very thankful that their debts are abolished – our primary purpose was to spread information about the workings of this secondary debt market."

The group has focussed on buying medical debt, and has acquired the $14.7m in three separate purchases, most recently purchasing the value of $13.5m on medical debt owed by 2,693 people across 45 states and Puerto Rico, Rolling Jubilee said in a press release.

“No one should have to go into debt or bankruptcy because they get sick,” said Laura Hanna, an organiser with the group. Hanna said 62% of all personal bankruptcies have medical debt as a contributing factor."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/12/occupy-wall-street-activists-15m-personal-debt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 13, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
I may be wrong, but I have also read that in Europe they use VAT (consumption tax) to fund their programs. Without researching it, does anyone know if that is true?

In England the National Health Service is primarily funded through an income-type tax--not sure about other countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance

Curt

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Nov 13, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
In Canada, they originally taxed beer but it brought in too much money so I believe they changed it to an income tax.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 13, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Even if the number were thirty million (and you've provided no evidence that it is), that's still less than 10% of the US population.

What percent of the population had NO insurance before ACA?

Now you're making a totally different argument from your earlier ones. This one is just Norton's et al, and it is back to the side of this discussion that I said I wouldn't debate anymore. I've said my piece on this, as it is really about the difference between political philosophies. I am libertarian and believe in people's freedom to choose AND to pay their own price for their choices. Obamacare is at the opposite end of the spectrum of solutions from the MANY other possibilities that would be based upon CHOICE, as Shiloh and I have been noting.

I'm not going to debate you about the obvious facts. That's a fool's errand. And I'm not going to debate political philosophy any more. On this thread, it's a waste of my time.

ALL I will say at this point is that your argument amounts to saying: "MANY were getting screwed before, and we don't even KNOW how many people (but it's a large enough number that even the President is back-peddling, and the Dems are now sounding like the Rebumblicans of a month ago) are getting screwed by the current approach. So, somebody is going to get screwed no matter what we do or don't do. Thus, it's FAR better to intentionally and ACTIVELY screw people by DOING something than it is to unintentionally screw people by doing nothing."

But there are FAR better alternatives than DOING Obamacare or doing nothing. That is ALL I intend to argue going forward.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 13, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
House Democrats delivered a fix-it-or-else ultimatum Wednesday to President Obama, giving his administration until Friday to find an affordable solution for the millions of Americans losing their health plans under ObamaCare -- or risk some Democrats backing a Republican solution.

The ultimatum from President Obama's own party is another sign of the unrest within the Democratic caucus about the cancellation notices. The end-of-the-week deadline is significant, because House Republicans are planning to call a vote Friday on a bill that would extend current policies for another year.

It's unclear whether Democrats would go so far as to support that bill if the administration does not offer a Plan B.


Yep Norton, implementation is smoooooooth
Degaine

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Larry Neslon wrote:
Well, I plead ignorance, but that esteemed Harvard professor knows more about how incentives work in economics than most. He also posed the "perspectives" as questions to ponder, not statements of fact.


Economics, or any social policy (including ACA or single payer), is not hard science. No counterfactuals can be disproven. It is good to be cautioulsy skeptical of anyone who is cocksure of future success's in any new social policy. In fact the more dogmatic they are, the more skeptical we should be of their assertions. The Dunning-Krufer effect explains a portion of that.


Hi Larry,

You’re the one who seems cocksure in that you are asking the right questions and that you are appropriately skeptical.

I’m not cocksure, but I have studied the subject extensively and in a professional capacity. I have no doubt regarding the Harvard professor’s knowledge and expertise in economics, and although the questions he asks might seem pertinent to you, they are off-topic with regard to healthcare and healthcare economics.

To start, the relationship between stakeholders in healthcare (patient, provider, insurance) is not the same as with auto insurance or life insurance. The incentive game is not the same.

I highly recommend that you read the Time article, it’ll be a good start for you. Reading WHO documents that provide overviews of most systems will also help to inform you on the topic.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
Madbolter1 nails it.....too many in this crowd are willing to go down with Obama's ship, even when plain facts are causing Democrat leaders to run away from the excrement that is Obamacare.

Republicans side with Ted Cruz, shut down the government over Obamacare, and then you accuse anyone else of "going down with the ship?" Hysterical.

Curt
Degaine

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Larry wrote:
I know there are many advocates of Canadian, French and other healthcare systems and I have heard many good things about them. There are also the anecdotal stories of someone coming to America from those countries to have procedures done. Clearly no one system is perfect.

Anecdotes are just that, anecdotes. We're talking about judging a system in its entirety on such things as:
*Access to care
*Outcomes and the overall health of the population
*Cost of care

As I asked earlier, do my anecdotes get to cancel out yours?
Degaine

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
An entire healthcare system cannot be funded by the "vice tax" that Madbolter brings up, and since Larry wrote the following:
I may be wrong, but I have also read that in Europe they use VAT (consumption tax) to fund their programs. Without researching it, does anyone know if that is true?

I'll write a quick reply.

Let's use the country with the number 1 healthcare system on the planet, France:

a) Everyone pays into the system=> Employees and employers as a percentage of an employee's salary. It can't be any other way. Everyone is in the risk pool and everyone shares in the cost.

b) However, in the spirit of Madbolter's "vice tax" certain products are taxed more heavily than others and this tax goes directly to the healthcare system. This is the case for cigarettes. There is a pretty direct correlation between smoking and lung cancer, it's easy to calculate the cost of lung cancer to the system, and so the VAT on cigarettes was raised to pay for this cost.

c)For activities like climbing, skiing, etc., belonging to an alpine club or a ski club one pays between 20 € to 30 € per year for insurance to cover those activities.

d) The system only covers dental and eyes for emergencies. Otherwise regular dental work, glasses, contacts, etc. are paid either out of pocket or via supplemental health insurance, which is private.

Larry, I'll let you do the rest of the research on your own, you've LEB'd me enough for one day.
Degaine

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Ron Anderson wrote:
I dont believe a president would get up on natl tv to APOLOGIZE over anecdotal evidence.

Ron, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. PM me if you want the contact info for a couple of tutors I know.
Degaine

climber
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Sketch wrote:
There's a bunch of posters defending Obama tooth and nail. They seem like mindless zealots.

A bunch, that synonymous to a lot. For this type of thread me a lot = 10 or more. Could you cite the names within the hoard of mindless zealots of which you speak?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 13, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Calling a liar on his lies is not "attacking".
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 13, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Another one of those fellas who never actually says what politicians or policies he supports.

How is this relevant? Please explain?

Edit: Kos is raycess
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 13, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Let's hear your alternative to Obamacare. What should be done?


Here is my plan:

“If you like your plan, you can keep your plan.”
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 13, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Let's hear your alternative to Obamacare. What should be done?

I'd say going back and repealing the whole stinking turd of an idea, would be a first step.

Only a fool would say or think that we (the usa population)had a great system before ACA.
Now only a FOOL would defend the act.

Is it to early to say: "I told you so"

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 13, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
“I personally believe, even if it takes a change in the law the president should honor the commitment that the federal government made to those people and let them keep what they got,”
-Pres. Bill Clinton

There is a lesson here for everybody:

When you find yourself being schooled in ethics and good moral character by Bill Clinton ... you can be assured that you have really screwed up....
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 13, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Government has always forced people to do things. Sometimes very costly things.

It's kinda' twisted, but for some I guess that's a good enough reason for millions of people to be kicked off and lose their health insurance...
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