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pc
climber
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Bullsh#t.
Your post is just an attempt to justify your thievery by gathering like minded folk/thieves.
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rnevius
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
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I never even asked about the morality of "booty." The original post was mostly a history question.
Thievery? As soon as I pulled the gear, I searched multiple forums and the board at the Leap to try to find the original owners. I'd happily return it to anyone who described it to me. Based on the different marking styles on the gear I pulled, that's 4 different people. I spent a few hours on the wall getting this gear out. It was obvious from a few of these pieces that the owners simply abandoned them after a lack of effort to get them out. It's clogging up the route like trash.
Like I said, I don't believe in stealing gear. I'd return it if someone asked for it. But honestly, if it was me who lost the gear, I would have put everything I had into getting it out. If I couldn't, anyone else who could would more than deserve it. Stop trolling.
Oh wait...forgot I was on the taco...
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Bullsh#t.
Your post is just an attempt to justify your thievery by gathering like minded folk/thieves.
So we should leave it there like the trash it is?
How about the guy who rummages through our garbage for cans and bottles? Is he 'stealing'? Maybe I was gonna go through there and pick them out before the trash truck comes along - I mean they're my property still, right? Even though they reside in the garbage can!?!
Picking up trash [abandoned gear] is not stealing.
Oh wait, pc - I get it. You're the politically correct troll.
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aguacaliente
climber
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I know f-all about booty (the gear kind), but it seems to me that cleaning your gear is an intrinsic part of the climbing process, so not being able to do it is a climbing oops rather than a mental lapse like losing your sunglasses. Hence the booty ethics.
It's not like lost and found. Hopefully most agree that when you forget something in the parking lot, or even at the base of the wall, it's not booty, it's just lost and should be returned to the owner.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Anyone against the "booty" ethic of climbing hasn't climbed long enough. I've found gear, and I've fixed gear only to return and found someone with more time/tools/experience got it out. Good for them! I take "booty" and try to use it to improve anchors, or in some other way benefit the climbing community. In general, I think we should strive toward having clean lines to climb, and part of that is removing others' gear sometimes. Always leave it better than you found it, if at all possible!
Josh
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I used to have the lost and found clause in my booty rulze. just too busy to search for the origional that i posted to neclimbs or Neice , taco stand or RC.noob god only knows how long ago.
Sh#t that is obviously lost in the parking lot etc is Not booty.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Sep 10, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
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#1 Any gear that you leave on a climb due to lack of skill, persistance or sack is booty once you give up on retrieveing it and leave the crag for the day. You get a 12hr reprive if you announce your intentions to recover your gear but you do need to be at the base of the cliff at first light. Get drunk and sleep in will result in your gear becomming booty.
#2. Gear left due to inclemant weather or conditions is booty as a lack of skill was involved in the decisions that you made. You were not fast and strong enough to beat the weather or you made a poor decision regarding the weather or conditions.The mtn beat you and therefore your gear becomes booty.
#3 Any gear left in a rescue or accident resulting in real (not imagined) injury is not booty and shall be left at Rock and snow/IME, the Mountainere etc. to be returned to the proper partys involved. The booty game is supposed to be fun. once someone gets really hurt it is not fun anymore.
**
I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I spot a pretty obvious hypocrisy here with #3. Why should you be allowed to get your gear back after an accident, if you are not allowed because of #1 and 2? All 3 situations arise from (according to your logic) the same common denominator. Not being strong / skilled / mentally tough enough and getting in over your head.
What if you get injured because of the weather? Does that fall under the guidelines of 2 or 3?
The booty game is supposed to be fun? When is it ever fun to have to not only retreat and admit defeat, but to have your gear you worked hard to buy get picked over by the jackals the minute the "rules" say it's ok? Only sounds like fun for one side.
Rebuttal?
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Brian Bauer
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
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This sh#t is ridiculous. I'm not sure where the confusion is. The 5 rules posted seem like common sense to me. Obviously if something is just laying in the parking lot, someone forgot it. Don't be a thief. If someone left a piece on a climb, stuck, (and there was no accident involving a bail), then it's up for grabs. Period. My only gotcha is if you're following a party on a super easy climb. I recently climbed behind a party on Deception at the leap. The follower left like 4 nuts that were in no way fixed...but she was obviously new at cleaning gear. It would be dickish to score those...
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Brian Bauer
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
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An anchor built for a safe rescue, by you or another party, is pretty obvious...
If you're on a trade route and you find this, do some research. If you think you're new routing...it might be less obvious, but still do some research...
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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Sep 12, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
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I recently climbed behind a party on Deception at the leap. The follower left like 4 nuts that were in no way fixed...but she was obviously new at cleaning gear. It would be dickish to score those...
Nice Brian, I've actually returned quite a bit of gear in this scenario. I've even free soloed routes that the follower couldn't get the gear out, just so I could hand them their gear at the top of the route. Good karma.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Sep 20, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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Every old timer knows full well the risks of abandoning gear, and that is essentially what booty is - abandoned! I can't measure the gall of someone too inept to remove their own gear, who then expects some stranger will go to extra trouble and effort, only to be obligated to return said equipment!
It used to be a point of pride to be able to extricate stuck nuts, that might have been in place for weeks, or even longer, never mind merely being able to always remove everything your party placed - which sometimes involved lowering the leader, to take out the very piece he/she had inserted. Even that represented sort of a tacit dual embarrassment, for the leader to have placed gear too solid for their second to deal with, and for the second, to feel incompetent at removing anything the leader had set. Speed ascents be damned - I've spent more than an hour working on a single piece, and then not always successfully. Of course, cams changed everything, since they tended to get really, really stuck, but also represented a huge chunk of change that makes leaving one a real event.
One may show good form, and use discretion in returning gear either from rescue or accident scenarios, and sometimes to rank beginners, so as to display how the gear was not as stuck as they imagined. Swallowing one's pride, having to see someone else score your gear, should be taken as a lesson, rather than attacking those who work to keep the crags clean of junk.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 20, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
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If the 2nd can not clean the gear yet the leader intends to rap the route and recover the gear it is NOT booty untill the party retires for the day and admits defeat. Cleaning this gear while following the party and returning it is fine and does not cause an honor debt or loss of face for the party that did not have a chance to attempt recovery. If on the otherhand they do rap the rt and can not recover their gear and give up on the attempt to recover the gear then booty rulze apply.
The booty game is supposed to be fun in the event of a real rescue it is not fun anymore and for many very obvious reasons any gear left in the course of the accident and rescue is NOT booty.
annother item worth noteing. Work gear is not booty. Example I left a directional biner 2 weeks ago while rapping in to replace a bad bolt. that is Not booty
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 21, 2013 - 12:08am PT
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One may show good form, and use discretion in returning gear either from rescue or accident scenarios, and sometimes to rank beginners, so as to display how the gear was not as stuck as they imagined. Swallowing one's pride, having to see someone else score your gear, should be taken as a lesson, rather than attacking those who work to keep the crags clean of junk.
This is a great post.
We booty'd these kids 3.5 camalot on ancient art that they couldn't get out when they rapped & saw em' in the campground & have it back, they had a bong & smoked us out & gave us a bunch of nugz for later. That was cool. I sure would like to find a nice 3.5 camalot tho.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 21, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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We interrupt this serious discussion to show minor booty from yesterday. In a horizontal placement, it wasn't stuck or fallen on. The location suggested prudent retreat when a leader did not like the next runout.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 21, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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Someone complaining about booty is probably someone who has lost more gear than they've found.
I've bootied gear and called to the people above asking if they left it and I gave it back. But I wouldn't fault someone who kept it in that scenario. Basically I'm going to keep it if I don't know who the owner is and it's one piece here and there. If I found a few pieces like a bail anchor with cams I'd post a note, but if I extract a piece I'm not going to spend time tracking down the owner.
A lost and found is either a weak troll or a dumb idea. Yeah leaving Gear unattended is sure to remain there for the rightful owner LOL. If you find or extract gear you at the new rightful owner you just need to make a reasonable attempt to find the previous owner. Which for a stuck cam to me would be calling out to the nearby parties but for a whole rack in a parking lot or a rescue situation would be every thing I could do to get it back, notes, Internet postings, etc.
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mr p
Big Wall climber
eastside ca
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Sep 29, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Errett. I am off to the booty garden late70s early 80s=the base of the prow
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