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John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
The problem is, the U.S. is being hypocritical here. We didn't give a sh#t when it was us setting fire to civilians in Vietnam. That was an "accident" so it was ok.

Obviously, Assad has had an accident. If it was on purpose, there would be thousands dead, tens of thousands, that would fill the "Red Line" bill.

So for the US to strike, we have to accept that we are hypocritical, our accidents are ok, everybody else's are not ok. This does not come to the Red Line, Obama should do nothing, he should let McCain, Pelosi and their ilk take a stock market beating.

We have drones which execute people routinely throughout the Middle East, people are labeled as "terrorists" and good night irene. The next terror strike in the US, will undoubtedly be by some sort of robot. Though in the Middle East, a kid willing to become a martyr is probably equivalent.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:18pm PT

Always good to turn to our last honest news source, the Onion:


WASHINGTON—In light of increased pressure on President Obama to order a military strike on Syria, leading historians and military experts on Tuesday simply pointed to the United States’ longstanding and absolutely impeccable record of successful bombing campaigns over the past 60 years. “The record clearly shows that, in every instance since the Second World War in which the U.S. government has launched strategic missile attacks on foreign soil, our military forces easily targeted enemy assailants with total precision, leaving no civilian casualties, collateral damage, or any long-term negative consequences for the affected country or region, American foreign policy, or international relations as a whole,” said Harvard University historian Dr. Michael Carmona, adding that such past U.S. bombing operations have gone particularly well in Middle Eastern countries over the last century. “Just look at the 1954 bombings in Guatemala, the 1965-to-1973 bombings in Laos and Cambodia, the 1982 bombings in Beirut, the 1986 bombings in Libya, the 1987 bombings in Iran, the 1998 bombings in Iraq, the 1998 bombings in Sudan, the 1998 bombings in Afghanistan, routine airstrikes in Pakistan since 2005, the 2007 bombings in Somalia, the 2011 bombings in Somalia, and essentially the entire American military effort in Vietnam from 1960 to 1975. Those were all executed perfectly, and led, in the long run, to the most desirable possible outcome.” All experts on the subject then agreed unanimously that, if you want to create positive and lasting change in a troubled region, change that you will one day look back on with a deep sense of confidence, pride, and assurance that you did the right thing, then bombing campaigns are almost always the way to go.
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Assad didn't do it.

False flag ops (Israel & Saudis) did it to drag US into another quagmire.

Israel is completely in Washington.

They run the USA by proxy.

Americans are stooopider then all stoopid.

All useless stupid idiots just destroying everything they touch.

You should all be ashamed ......

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
As long as Monday night football isn't interrupted, who cares?
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
who cares?


If you don't care then you're in it.

Then that means you're a hypocrite and murderer of humanity by proxy ......
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Sarcasm sir
The whole situation is disgusting
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:50pm PT

Nicely put Pud !
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Werner,

Can't argue on that, so funny that they are so quite about things today.
Dead give away.


Myanmar next down the road will it turn into another Afghanistan?
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Any one at all who thinks America should lob bombs or send troops should go over there, personally, and do whatever they think others should do on their behalf.
--


Whatever you are not willing to do your very own self you have no right to ask others to do for you.

Also, if Obammmma went around and asked China, Russia, Japan, Germany, Norway, France, India, and the other nations who generate money what they were goig to do about the Syrian situation, right now, what do you think they would say, and why. And what other Arab nations are stepping up to stop things?

Please . . .

There's no way to proffit form such an effort. And why would China or Russia spend a dime on the Arabs? They probably would stand to lose money or strategic advantages if Assad went down, so no other nation is going to step up and do anything - imagine it otherwise.

Imagine the Chinese saying, "This gassing is crossing the line. We intend to stop it right now. We'll start with lobbing some bombs at this and that, trying not to kill too many widows and orphans, but you know how this stuff goes. Sorry."

Likely? Anyone else stepping up? Why not, do you reckon?

JL
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
We are about to become Al-Qaeda's air force.

(If you want to look for a "false flag" who benefits the most? And, has a track record of similar atrocities.)

There are no "good guys" in this quarrel.

Plenty of innocents caught in the middle for sure.

They will be slaughtered no mater which side prevails.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Whether he has legal authority, (he does) and if it's a wise idea are two completely bifurcatable concepts.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
I read the same thing in the Times this morning. But notice that others will "join," but not lead. Leading costs a lot more. Let France lead on this one. We'll lend support.

What's the chance of that, do you think?

And who, exactly, gets bombed. The Times said they would not Target Assad but this seems chickensh#t. If you're going after them, get the Dude himself. Why settle for less when you have already decided to kill some folks. Proabably a lot of folks - sorry about those kids. But we won't see those pics.

I still think that aside from a few token smart bombs and cruise missiles, this thing won't go anywhere. There's no way to profit from this thing and wars are not fought if nobody can make some dough. Ever.

JL
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Werner, you're a stupid American.

Edit: And I'm a stupid American for replying to comments several days? weeks? months? behind the conversation. Well, I was born in America and I still live here. Stupid is as stupid does.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Largo, why let France lead this one, why not Turkey? It's on their doorstep. If someone "has" to intervene why not the Turks? (Basically I agree with you that it's hard to imagine any country other than ours wading in to this mess.)

There are no good guys here, the U.S. should stay the hell out no matter what they do inside Syria.

Here are the two questions we can't answer:

1. What do we accomplish if we "intervene?"

2. What then?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
Here are the two questions we can't answer: 1. What do we accomplish if we "intervene?" 2. What then?

Maybe we can't but US gov already has: (1) The world sends the message that it's a new era, in the 21st century chemical weapons won't be tolerated. Full stop. (2) Start of the next half. Both sides continue the fight till there is a victor. That's the developing plan any way.

But in the background there is always the pattern if not the law of unintended consequences.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Aug 27, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Are yu Syrius?

\



Bomb they muthaf*#kas back to the Stonehenge Age.

Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Targets would likely be limited to anti aircraft missile sites and specific other military installations including supply depots along with perhaps establishing a Syrian government no flow zone.

That sounds strangely familiar, Norton, doesn't it?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
John asked:
"And who, exactly, gets bombed. The Times said they would not Target Assad but this seems chickensh#t. If you're going after them, get the Dude himself."

Getting the "Dude" may be counterproductive. Having a conflict inside Syria is productive to the Israelis as Werner notes. As the President drew a "Red Line" over the use of chemical weapons, to sit back and say "Oh, we really don't care and were just kidding" would screw US forigon policy in the ass worldwide and be seriously costly on many levels but certainly in both money and men. Thus, we are painted into a corner. They will need to take out any and all chemical weapons that can be taken out. ie, some are reactive 2 part but inert and harmless until mixed before use. Those.

How we got here:
“The idea was to put a chill into the Assad regime without actually trapping the president into any predetermined action,” said one senior official, who, like others, discussed the internal debate on the condition of anonymity. But “what the president said in August was unscripted,” another official said. Mr. Obama was thinking of a chemical attack that would cause mass fatalities, not relatively small-scale episodes like those now being investigated, except the “nuance got completely dropped.”

Then
"the problem with those remarks, however. After Obama initially laid down his red line -- the key words of which were "a whole bunch" -- various administration officials repeated them, sometimes losing the qualifier entirely. Here, for instance, is Vice President Joe Biden on March 4:

Because we recognize the great danger Assad’s chemical and biological arsenals pose to Israel and the United States, to the whole world, we’ve set a clear red line against the use or the transfer of the those weapons.

And here's Obama 17 days later:

I’ve made it clear to Bashar al-Assad and all who follow his orders: We will not tolerate the use of chemical weapons against the Syrian people, or the transfer of those weapons to terrorists. The world is watching; we will hold you accountable."

The line was drawn. If you support Israel, then backing up our words with actions is not a bad thing. If you feel that 100,000 dead Syrians means nothing, then all is right in the world for you. If you feel John Kerry is an honorable man (as I do), who has seen battle and would avoid it at all costs unless backed into a corner: then that's a starting point for discussion as well. Perhaps the same could be said about Colin Powell and the lying Yellow Cake bullshit of the Bush Administration too. For myself, I don't understand why the Syrian regime would use poison gas at this time and in this situation. They have a shitload of other significant conventional weapons to pound the rebels into submission. Weapons which would be very effective and the rebels have no defense for. Standard artillery would have done the job much better, for example. Could Werner have that answered just upthread? It's very curious. I can't say, and I support Israel fully, but a full investigation into it is warranted.



Interesting typical partisan take by John Bolton on the Wall Street Journal bitching about the President, as usual. Has some good points: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323528404578450561574249892.html

Seems to me a good use of military power would to advise Assad and the Syrian officials that they need to cease and desist with the starvation of civilians in the current siege. Should that be ignored, warplanes take out any air defenses and we do a massive food drop. Evidently the siege is worse than the poison gas.




Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
Obviously there are many levels to look at this. To say that the US and our allies have no reason to kill Assad is a hard one to swallow if you saw the vids of those convulsing kids with theri limbs sticking out rigid as a scare crow. There is some that would say anyone who orderd such an attack should either rot in the Haigh forever or die. Evidence is building that Assad gave the word:

Vice President Joe Biden said there was no question that Assad was responsible for the attack – the highest-ranking U.S. official to say so – and the White House dismissed as "fanciful" the notion that anyone other than Assad could be to blame.

'"Suggestions that there's any doubt about who's responsible for this are as preposterous as a suggestion that the attack did not occur," spokesman Jay Carney said.

A U.S. official said some of the evidence includes signals intelligence – information gathered from intercepted communications. The U.S. assessment is also based on the number of reported victims, the symptoms of those injured or killed, and witness accounts. The officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the internal deliberations."'

If you're going to start bombing to "send a message" that gas will not be tolerated, why not say whoever is in power at the time the gas was released must pay the piper.

This will probably have little to no effect on the war. The rebels are likely more anti-west than Assad and his boys. So trying to influence the outcome is a sticky wicket.

Probably best all around to just stay out, but it slays me that someone can get away with gassing his own people. To think that Assad is a British trained doctor. Seems remarkale.

JL
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