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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
i seem to recall obummuh making some "red line" speech a while back..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 22, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
now FRANCE says,, force may be needed in Syrai.. Cool,, let em have at it!
D'Wolf

climber
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

While I certainly don't condone anything that's going on over there, evidence is lacking for sarin gas.

None of the photo of video footage shows aid workers using any form of protective barriers while assisting the dead or injured. We know from the 1995 attack in Japan that sarin is definitely toxic well after deployment and Japanese aid workers wore protective barriers to prevent coming in contact with the chemicals that remained on the victims.

This could be nothing but propaganda to prompt some sort of action from countries like the U.S. and France since everyone has basically chosen to stay out of the fray.

Thom
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
The headline about the killed children is a sure sign we are about to go to war. The surest way to manufacture outrage and manipulate public opinion in support of war is to show pictures of slaughtered children. Remember the children allegedly killed in their incubators in Kuwait?

Why don't we see pictures of children killed by drone attacks, or malnutrition as a result of US mandated sanctions? Because these would not support the current US agenda.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
WHICH POS should he take out? The one he helped put in? or the taliban?



Syria civil wars AINT our problem.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Soo Riley you want our troops there? in the GAS? Not me. obummer has already made an absolute SHAM of Syria. And he supports the same SOBs that cause grief round the world. MORON~ your PROBABLY thinking about EGYPT where he did the same crap....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
Barry is soooo concerned that his ambassador to the UN, (Samantha Power) couldn't be bothered with showing up for a UN emergency Security Council session on the matter today.

No explanation on what other matter could be more pressing was forthcoming.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Ron, dude, get friggin grip, you blow around like a weather vane.

Benghazi is a veritable Disneyland compared to Syria. No one wants to go in - its a proxy war by design and no one is interested in going in because the odds are good it will further devolve from localized nightmare to an uncontrollable regional debacle with decades of fallout here at home.

Everyone wanting to rush in better be prepared for a long and painful tango of unexpected consequences and that's why the Obama crew is mewling and mealy-mouthing this issue until the last possible minute.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
I say avoid it all. Either side is HIDEOUS in human rights,, which ISNT two words ever spoken together there. Support the taliban or the army.

THE only idea that would work there is to kill 75% of them ALL. The remaining 25% WILL SEE a new light. I mean HONESTLY-- youd have better luck having a picknick with the Hattfields and McCoys.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
The headline about the killed children is a sure sign we are about to go to war. The surest way to manufacture outrage and manipulate public opinion in support of war is to show pictures of slaughtered children. Remember the children allegedly killed in their incubators in Kuwait?

Why don't we see pictures of children killed by drone attacks, or malnutrition as a result of US mandated sanctions? Because these would not support the current US agenda.

+1
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Remember the children allegedly killed in their incubators in Kuwait?

THEY TOOK THE BABIES FROM THE INCUBATORS AND THREW THEM ON THE FLOOR!!!!!!11111111

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:45pm PT


These are the drumbeats of war...

DMT
sharperblue

Mountain climber
San Francisco, California
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
IN case you missed it, we've been at war with Russia for the past 150 years. This is all about shutting down Russian controlled oil pipelines and warship access to the Mediterranean. 'Arab Spring' continues right on schedule.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
Get in their Obama and finally wipe this POS out ..

If I know Obama he is already planning it out..

radical do you ever read your won spew?

you havent a clue about obama let alone "knowing" him.

what you know is a carefully crafted persona that the democrats rolled out to get your vote.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 23, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
These are the drumbeats of war...

DMT



Oh Willy McBride it all happened again.

and again, and again, and again, and again,
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Aug 23, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Obama is a media master (one reason he got my vote).

He also lacks the short term memory loss of those wishing to rush in and wipe out the allege purveyors of WMD'S within the Syrian leadership.

First thing Obama does after receiving intel of the alleged use of sarin gas is to solicit the support of the UN in condemming this action.

I hope he uses the same methodology he 'approved' to remove Bin Laden.
Covert actions by UN backed teams are the answer for the removal of any criminal government, if the facts are there.


If McCain were in office, we'd have our soldiers dying on Syrian ground today.

squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Honestly why do we care when we have starving children and issues of our own at home? Is our government voted in by the world or us? Are they there to serve the world or us? Sure it's a travesty that people got gassed on the other side of the globe but that kind of sh#t happens all the time all over the world. Why do we need to care this time, or the other time, or any time?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 23, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
We will never, so long as we live, see American forces of any size invade Syria. A few smart bombs - maybe. Even some drones, since we'll have a surplus of them if we ever actually clear out of Afghanistan. But there's no way to profit (no oil) from invading Syria, so we don't go.

The rest of the world will talk a good game but it's very unlikely anyone will risk their own soldiers and no way will they spend multi-billions on some place the world doesn't give jack sh#t about. With no mega resources for us to swipe, no business for us to partake in, warring factions from hell, and an Islamic culture to boot, I doubt anyone will do anything dramatic. Who would it ever be but us?

And I'm told by people in the know that Iraq was the last US invasion. Even with us boosting most of their oil, we still went bankrupt though some companies like Haliburton came out shining.

The few countries who have the dough and infrastructure to pull off an invasion would never spend their money on Muslims. Good or bad is not the point here, sad to say. It's just not something countries will do. They'll keep their own funds and the Arabs can sort out their own affairs. Or not. It's tragic that the kids have to suffer from hideous stuff like that gassing. For those doubting the gassing actually happened, look at this awful video.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/world/middleeast/syria.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130822&_r=0

Perhaps it's not serin gas, but it's not perfume either.


JL
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 27, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Pud said:
"If McCain were in office, we'd have our soldiers dying on Syrian ground today."
We have no idea about that. Looks like President Obama is going with the tied and true Bush method...well, only part of it it appears.


"President Barack Obama, sure to fall short of getting explicit U.N. approval for any military strikes against Syrian strongman Bashar Assad’s forces and facing potential divisions inside NATO, has instead been assembling allies and partners in a coalition of the willing that recalls the Iraq War.

And where then-President George W. Bush at least got Congress to authorize him to use force against Saddam Hussein, Obama shows no sign of asking lawmakers to do so, preferring instead to engage in “consultations” with key players."

Time will tell. I can see this turning into a fait accompli against Iran in short order as well. Perhaps Obama will call it the "Middle Eastern 2 for 1 deal", or "like 2 peas in a rotten pod", or the much simpler "Spin the wheel, get 2 deals". It could be more likely that he'd coin it "OPERATION WORLD PEACE". Who could possibly argue against that? Only a total douchnozzel.

It will be interesting to see what extent Congress gets consulted. I'm sure that our President, AKA the "Bystander-in-chief", who is a constitutional scholar you know, would not violate the war powers act and take us to war without a congressional mandate. Right?

Where are all the haters of Israel complaining about the over 100,000 fatality's in Syria? They seem awful quiet about these serious atrocities. It's OK to bitch on Jews killing a single Palestinian kid protecting themselves, to call them all kinds of vile things, but they don't step up and say a damned thing about the terrible loss of innocent lives in Syria? Times like these I miss Fattrad being here and schooling the ST Israel haters.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
The Sryian army has the rebels ... uh excuse me, the activists ... on the ropes and now the plan is to take out their air force and massively arm the rebels/activists with CIA assistance, so the war will last a few years longer, a few more tens of thousands will die, but the outcome will be the same. As Nietzsche said, "Beware of those in whom the urge to punish is strong.”
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Any one at all who thinks America should lob bombs or send troops should go over there, personally, and do whatever they think others should do on their behalf.

DMT
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:43pm PT

...Get in their Obama and finally wipe this POS out ...

...There will be no troops on the ground.
You can not let dictators gas their people ...
What kind of as#@&%e are you
Kind of guy who would watch and do nothing while woman and children are raped?

Riley beats the drums of war, and if you dare to challenge his twisted logic you're a MORON for sure.

How do you wipe out this dictator without troops on the ground? I guess you could bomb the place back to the stone age (remember that choice remark by Curtis Lemay during the Vietnam war?) How many women and children to do it your way Riley?

Haven't we seen this movie before? Next thing you know they'll be telling us that Hassad has Saddam's WMDs.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
I find it more than mildly paradoxical that Obama expresses outrage over
this and deems it worthy of a token military strike yet millions continue
to die in deepest darkest Africa to which we have sent all of a few dozen advisors.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
We're f*#ked. I heard they're running out of money to fight the Rim fire but there's plenty of money to buy cruise missiles. Guess everybody in D.C. owns Defense stocks.

Hope they understand more about what's going on than they did when they threw us into Iraq.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#318311

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Next thing you know they'll be telling us that Hassad has Saddam's WMDs.

"They" have been telling us this for years.

When it became clear to everyone that we were not going to find any WMDs in Iraq, an explanation we often heard from war apologists and Bush supporters is that Saddam sent the WMDs to Syria just before the US invasion.

Of course there is no evidence that this happened, but the WMDs have to be somewhere, and since we did not find them in Iraq ...

Guess everybody in D.C. owns Defense stocks.

Not quite, but many in D.C. are directly on the Defense payroll or receive campaign donations from contractors and their lobbyists.

There's a reason Fairfax county is one of the most expensive places for real estate in the U.S. You'll find more high end luxury cars in the Pentagon parking lot than you will in Silicon Valley.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
"They" have been telling us this for years.

Yes I know. The foundation is laid...

And there was that thing about Saddam gassing the Kurds too. He had to go! Oh wait, didn't we sell him that stuff?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
The law is well established that you cannot blame the manufacturer for
the misuse of their products.

Choke on a steak cannot sue the rancher.
Run over in a crosswalk by a silent running Volt cannot sue Chevrolet.
Saddam poisons you with nerve gas cannot sue US.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
The manufacturer is dead.





John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 27, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
The "Red Line" business came out when Obama was in Israel. Israel is happy. I guess if Israel is happy, we should be happy.

The post upthread about Sarin was spot on. Fact is, in a confined space, tear gas is fatal.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 27, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Let’s see where have I heard or seen this before:

US say they will hit strategic targets soon but will not tell when or the time or day; mostly at night time when people are asleep. They will only hit military, government and missile sites plus they say it will be a surprise.

Assad has now been warned for weeks about this; what could be going through his mine as well as his generals:

Citizens between the ages of 60-80, children and women are being rounded up and placed in front of, around, on top of the roofs, in the buildings, cooking, dancing, singing, watching TV and reading in or at these military, government and missile sites.

Assad couldn’t that cruel could he?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
The problem is, the U.S. is being hypocritical here. We didn't give a sh#t when it was us setting fire to civilians in Vietnam. That was an "accident" so it was ok.

Obviously, Assad has had an accident. If it was on purpose, there would be thousands dead, tens of thousands, that would fill the "Red Line" bill.

So for the US to strike, we have to accept that we are hypocritical, our accidents are ok, everybody else's are not ok. This does not come to the Red Line, Obama should do nothing, he should let McCain, Pelosi and their ilk take a stock market beating.

We have drones which execute people routinely throughout the Middle East, people are labeled as "terrorists" and good night irene. The next terror strike in the US, will undoubtedly be by some sort of robot. Though in the Middle East, a kid willing to become a martyr is probably equivalent.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:18pm PT

Always good to turn to our last honest news source, the Onion:


WASHINGTON—In light of increased pressure on President Obama to order a military strike on Syria, leading historians and military experts on Tuesday simply pointed to the United States’ longstanding and absolutely impeccable record of successful bombing campaigns over the past 60 years. “The record clearly shows that, in every instance since the Second World War in which the U.S. government has launched strategic missile attacks on foreign soil, our military forces easily targeted enemy assailants with total precision, leaving no civilian casualties, collateral damage, or any long-term negative consequences for the affected country or region, American foreign policy, or international relations as a whole,” said Harvard University historian Dr. Michael Carmona, adding that such past U.S. bombing operations have gone particularly well in Middle Eastern countries over the last century. “Just look at the 1954 bombings in Guatemala, the 1965-to-1973 bombings in Laos and Cambodia, the 1982 bombings in Beirut, the 1986 bombings in Libya, the 1987 bombings in Iran, the 1998 bombings in Iraq, the 1998 bombings in Sudan, the 1998 bombings in Afghanistan, routine airstrikes in Pakistan since 2005, the 2007 bombings in Somalia, the 2011 bombings in Somalia, and essentially the entire American military effort in Vietnam from 1960 to 1975. Those were all executed perfectly, and led, in the long run, to the most desirable possible outcome.” All experts on the subject then agreed unanimously that, if you want to create positive and lasting change in a troubled region, change that you will one day look back on with a deep sense of confidence, pride, and assurance that you did the right thing, then bombing campaigns are almost always the way to go.
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Assad didn't do it.

False flag ops (Israel & Saudis) did it to drag US into another quagmire.

Israel is completely in Washington.

They run the USA by proxy.

Americans are stooopider then all stoopid.

All useless stupid idiots just destroying everything they touch.

You should all be ashamed ......

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
As long as Monday night football isn't interrupted, who cares?
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
who cares?


If you don't care then you're in it.

Then that means you're a hypocrite and murderer of humanity by proxy ......
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Sarcasm sir
The whole situation is disgusting
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:50pm PT

Nicely put Pud !
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Werner,

Can't argue on that, so funny that they are so quite about things today.
Dead give away.


Myanmar next down the road will it turn into another Afghanistan?
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Credit: internet
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Any one at all who thinks America should lob bombs or send troops should go over there, personally, and do whatever they think others should do on their behalf.
--


Whatever you are not willing to do your very own self you have no right to ask others to do for you.

Also, if Obammmma went around and asked China, Russia, Japan, Germany, Norway, France, India, and the other nations who generate money what they were goig to do about the Syrian situation, right now, what do you think they would say, and why. And what other Arab nations are stepping up to stop things?

Please . . .

There's no way to proffit form such an effort. And why would China or Russia spend a dime on the Arabs? They probably would stand to lose money or strategic advantages if Assad went down, so no other nation is going to step up and do anything - imagine it otherwise.

Imagine the Chinese saying, "This gassing is crossing the line. We intend to stop it right now. We'll start with lobbing some bombs at this and that, trying not to kill too many widows and orphans, but you know how this stuff goes. Sorry."

Likely? Anyone else stepping up? Why not, do you reckon?

JL
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
We are about to become Al-Qaeda's air force.

(If you want to look for a "false flag" who benefits the most? And, has a track record of similar atrocities.)

There are no "good guys" in this quarrel.

Plenty of innocents caught in the middle for sure.

They will be slaughtered no mater which side prevails.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Whether he has legal authority, (he does) and if it's a wise idea are two completely bifurcatable concepts.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
I read the same thing in the Times this morning. But notice that others will "join," but not lead. Leading costs a lot more. Let France lead on this one. We'll lend support.

What's the chance of that, do you think?

And who, exactly, gets bombed. The Times said they would not Target Assad but this seems chickensh#t. If you're going after them, get the Dude himself. Why settle for less when you have already decided to kill some folks. Proabably a lot of folks - sorry about those kids. But we won't see those pics.

I still think that aside from a few token smart bombs and cruise missiles, this thing won't go anywhere. There's no way to profit from this thing and wars are not fought if nobody can make some dough. Ever.

JL
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Werner, you're a stupid American.

Edit: And I'm a stupid American for replying to comments several days? weeks? months? behind the conversation. Well, I was born in America and I still live here. Stupid is as stupid does.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Largo, why let France lead this one, why not Turkey? It's on their doorstep. If someone "has" to intervene why not the Turks? (Basically I agree with you that it's hard to imagine any country other than ours wading in to this mess.)

There are no good guys here, the U.S. should stay the hell out no matter what they do inside Syria.

Here are the two questions we can't answer:

1. What do we accomplish if we "intervene?"

2. What then?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 27, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
Here are the two questions we can't answer: 1. What do we accomplish if we "intervene?" 2. What then?

Maybe we can't but US gov already has: (1) The world sends the message that it's a new era, in the 21st century chemical weapons won't be tolerated. Full stop. (2) Start of the next half. Both sides continue the fight till there is a victor. That's the developing plan any way.

But in the background there is always the pattern if not the law of unintended consequences.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Aug 27, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Are yu Syrius?

\




Bomb they muthaf*#kas back to the Stonehenge Age.

Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Targets would likely be limited to anti aircraft missile sites and specific other military installations including supply depots along with perhaps establishing a Syrian government no flow zone.

That sounds strangely familiar, Norton, doesn't it?
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
LOL. Americans worrying about gas used in Syria and want to come and wage war in a foreign country...while own population is poisoned by toxic fake food chemicals and horribly obese, dying from heart disease and cancer...ahahaha. I guess US needs to come and bring the Monsanto into Syria. What was that order in Iraq?--grow Monsanto seeds ONLY, that's right. Fake righteous liars. Clean up own mess with cancer epidemic in Iraq, from deployed weapons, first.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
John asked:
"And who, exactly, gets bombed. The Times said they would not Target Assad but this seems chickensh#t. If you're going after them, get the Dude himself."

Getting the "Dude" may be counterproductive. Having a conflict inside Syria is productive to the Israelis as Werner notes. As the President drew a "Red Line" over the use of chemical weapons, to sit back and say "Oh, we really don't care and were just kidding" would screw US forigon policy in the ass worldwide and be seriously costly on many levels but certainly in both money and men. Thus, we are painted into a corner. They will need to take out any and all chemical weapons that can be taken out. ie, some are reactive 2 part but inert and harmless until mixed before use. Those.

How we got here:
“The idea was to put a chill into the Assad regime without actually trapping the president into any predetermined action,” said one senior official, who, like others, discussed the internal debate on the condition of anonymity. But “what the president said in August was unscripted,” another official said. Mr. Obama was thinking of a chemical attack that would cause mass fatalities, not relatively small-scale episodes like those now being investigated, except the “nuance got completely dropped.”

Then
"the problem with those remarks, however. After Obama initially laid down his red line -- the key words of which were "a whole bunch" -- various administration officials repeated them, sometimes losing the qualifier entirely. Here, for instance, is Vice President Joe Biden on March 4:

Because we recognize the great danger Assad’s chemical and biological arsenals pose to Israel and the United States, to the whole world, we’ve set a clear red line against the use or the transfer of the those weapons.

And here's Obama 17 days later:

I’ve made it clear to Bashar al-Assad and all who follow his orders: We will not tolerate the use of chemical weapons against the Syrian people, or the transfer of those weapons to terrorists. The world is watching; we will hold you accountable."

The line was drawn. If you support Israel, then backing up our words with actions is not a bad thing. If you feel that 100,000 dead Syrians means nothing, then all is right in the world for you. If you feel John Kerry is an honorable man (as I do), who has seen battle and would avoid it at all costs unless backed into a corner: then that's a starting point for discussion as well. Perhaps the same could be said about Colin Powell and the lying Yellow Cake bullshit of the Bush Administration too. For myself, I don't understand why the Syrian regime would use poison gas at this time and in this situation. They have a shitload of other significant conventional weapons to pound the rebels into submission. Weapons which would be very effective and the rebels have no defense for. Standard artillery would have done the job much better, for example. Could Werner have that answered just upthread? It's very curious. I can't say, and I support Israel fully, but a full investigation into it is warranted.



Interesting typical partisan take by John Bolton on the Wall Street Journal bitching about the President, as usual. Has some good points: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323528404578450561574249892.html

Seems to me a good use of military power would to advise Assad and the Syrian officials that they need to cease and desist with the starvation of civilians in the current siege. Should that be ignored, warplanes take out any air defenses and we do a massive food drop. Evidently the siege is worse than the poison gas.




Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
Obviously there are many levels to look at this. To say that the US and our allies have no reason to kill Assad is a hard one to swallow if you saw the vids of those convulsing kids with theri limbs sticking out rigid as a scare crow. There is some that would say anyone who orderd such an attack should either rot in the Haigh forever or die. Evidence is building that Assad gave the word:

Vice President Joe Biden said there was no question that Assad was responsible for the attack – the highest-ranking U.S. official to say so – and the White House dismissed as "fanciful" the notion that anyone other than Assad could be to blame.

'"Suggestions that there's any doubt about who's responsible for this are as preposterous as a suggestion that the attack did not occur," spokesman Jay Carney said.

A U.S. official said some of the evidence includes signals intelligence – information gathered from intercepted communications. The U.S. assessment is also based on the number of reported victims, the symptoms of those injured or killed, and witness accounts. The officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the internal deliberations."'

If you're going to start bombing to "send a message" that gas will not be tolerated, why not say whoever is in power at the time the gas was released must pay the piper.

This will probably have little to no effect on the war. The rebels are likely more anti-west than Assad and his boys. So trying to influence the outcome is a sticky wicket.

Probably best all around to just stay out, but it slays me that someone can get away with gassing his own people. To think that Assad is a British trained doctor. Seems remarkale.

JL
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
The COLD WAR has NEVER,, repeat NEVER went "away". If there is any reason we will find our troops in Syria it is over Russian involvement there. Putin told obummer to blow him basically. Including keeping our latest turn coat spy. That WILL factor in, im willing to bet.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 27, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
"There are no "good guys" in this quarrel.

Plenty of innocents caught in the middle for sure.

They will be slaughtered no mater which side prevails."



Holy shite....I'm having a flashback....

But it's wrong...all wrong....it's not Iraq anymore...

This time, it's a Repug trying to be the 'voice of reason' in the face of an(other) impending invasion...


You kill me, TGT. Not in a good way.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:42am PT
Assad didn't gas his own civilians when he was already winning AND the day before UN chemical experts were arriving....

Stop listening to US news. It's poison for your brain.

Think.

The good 'ol USSA most likely prepped the 'rebels' with the materials and rudimentary training. That's right. The real terrorists are in D.C.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:47am PT
What about Grenada Riley.. That was a GUD win.. Yeah sure, there was some surfing afterwards but...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:47am PT
Regardless of whether Assad actually ordered the attack or not it does seem wise to put anyone who could in the future be held responsible for a WMD usage on notice that their lives are forfeit. Dictators especially should know that they will be held accountable with their lives for even the mistaken unauthorized use of WMDs by their nation. This should help them realize that even possesing WMDs is not in their best interest in case something they didn't order happens.

I wouldn't go after military targets, I wouldn't try to influence this war much as it is not clear that there are any "good guys"

I would simply bomb anyplace he has ever called home and let him know that he is a target until he is dead or in custody. If it took 10 years.

I hope we have great intel on his position.

No more war..lets just take it to the top and kill him and anyone shown to be responsible who doesn't turn themselves in. Patience if needed..

Please no big "shock and awe". I hope it goes the way I'm describing.

Certainly something is going to happen. I pray only those responsible are harmed. Such a doubtful scenario.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Naahhhh. Let us LEAVE the following:


Libya
Iraq
Iran
Turkey
Yemen
Syria
Gaza
Afghanistan
Packistan
Saudi Arabia


No more money, no more embassys, no more aid of any kind. Take the multi trillions we WASTE on those causes- as decades prove, and FIX OUR COUNTRY. Fix OUR FORESTS, and fix OUR PEOPLE. FEKK the never ending jihad BULLCRAP. Thats been going on for thousands of years, and AINT NUTHIN CHANGED.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Ron O or Ron A is my goD?


It matters.
cassondra long

Trad climber
las vegas
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:55am PT
btw, Syria does have oil, just not developed like Iraq. I consider most news
media to be propaganda. No governments want to help the helpless for purely altruistic reasons.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:56am PT
Agreed Ron. Get out of there and simply kill/harrass leaders who screw up.

Assassination is much more moral than war.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:01am PT
I was hanging with my homie a couple of weeks ago. He is the #3 dude at an
embassy in the neighborhood and I don't mean Mr Roger's. He was highly
impressed with the Frenchies' effort in Mali. When I brought up Syria he
just rolled his eyes and muttered something to the effect of 'a bottomless
pit of quicksand'.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:03am PT
100,000+ in Syria killed the old fashioned way, and nobody gave a damn. Now, a relative few are gassed, and the outrage goes all the way up to The White House.

It's not lives Obama cares about, but the method of the killing. Makes no sense.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:06am PT
It does a bit. WMDs are too easily transportable to our shores. Large scale warfare is not.

WMD usage has fairly strong worldwide comdemnation against it. Thus it has the realistic ability to be abolished or at the very least severely curtailed. Infact it's usage is extremely rare. Enforcing this seems possibly worthwhile.

Sadly regular warfare does not at this time.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:10am PT
The more they expend on domestic pacification, the less they can export here.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:24am PT
What I sadly suspect will occur is some rediculus shock and awe attack..Does some damage to tactical targets.. kills some decent folks just trying to live their lives in tough times.. and nobody actually responsible pays any price they wouldn't consider as a fairly cheap purchase.

Simple easy way out that pretends to show our "resolve" on some damn red line.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:29am PT
Those working in the Syrian Baby Milk factory need to watch their asses until Obama gets the war drum beating out of his system.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:32am PT
Did any one attack anyone else after 911? You know- having OUR backs?

And if the govt here decided to gas a suburb somewhere, do you think any one would shock and awe us to help?

Hell no.. No way no how. Canada would probably SEAL its border to prevent refugee traffic lol!


Now , other than our govt, which is GONE DOWN THE ROAD WHACKO,,why should we be settling everyone elses civil wars? Especially given the wars are a thousand years old or better. We havent had ONE bit of affect any where weve been. As fast as the troops can kill alquay-duh, they reproduce and more step forward. Attempting to install democracy's where people have no CLUE what that even means has also proven to be nothing but folly. One failed attempt after the next. We made osama buttwaden who he became with arms, then he used them against us and that has been the result 100% of the time in our ME dealings. We now may very well support that very same bunch of devils in Syria. And NO ONE can make sense of that to me as of yet.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:35am PT
No argument Ron.

I just think it's not a bad idea to lob lethal force at ASSad anytime he pokes his head up. Good target practice.

Use of WMDS seems like a good reason to assassinate someone. The rest of the crap should be left alone to sort itself out.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:41am PT
Firing artillery into civilian areas is more than enough reason, if you ask me. Assad has been doing that for a couple years now. I don't understand the sudden outrage.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:42am PT
Dont think for a minute al-quay-duh wouldnt pull some gassing to elicit funds/arms/help. FACT: we have NO CLUE where/how/who etc etc..And NEITHER side is believable. So you go in and kill ALL but 25% of the populations and let the remaining re think their future. Thats about the MOST logical way here. Any one for that?
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2013 - 01:50am PT
Exclusive: CIA Files Prove America Helped Saddam as He Gassed Iran - By Shane Harris and Matthew M. Aid | Foreign Policy

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran

It's all good as long as they are our gassers.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:28am PT
I'm not conflicted at ALL Riley.

I've consistently in all my adult life, during and after having served in the arms forces honorably, been against the wars in which the US has engaged. Starting with The Bullying of Grenada and Panama. I'll even allow that those two worked out reasonably well for the locals. I was against them. Vocally. While they happened.

Against Gulf Wars 1. Got into heated arguments about it was called a communist and get this, lol, a pacifist. I was against Gulf War 2 and the Great Lie. That's where I learned the CIA was a band of cutthroat liars and torturers. Against Afghanistan, what a f*#king bunch of morons that allowed that to happen. I mocked the post-911 hysteria that had most of my fellow Americans quivering under their beds and begging George Bush, of all people GEORGE BUSH, to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING, PLEASE MAKE THE TERROR GO AWAY!!!!!1111

Tards.

Its a very simple observation and has been true since the dawn of civilization - them that call for war rarely partake of the practice THEMSELVES. And them that shout the loudest do so from the greatest distance from the action.

The military should be strictly voluntary. The Congress should be compelled to exercise their duty and actually vote yes/no on any foreign military engagement. The war powers act should be rescinded. And we the people should demand of our neighbors, friends, colleagues, rivals and mouthy passersby...

'you want a war? YOU GO FIGHT IT - PERSONALLY. NOW!!!!'

And these stupid assed proxy wars would vanish woosh! No more wars. A vote FOR war should be a signature on a military enlistment contract or commission. Completion of that contract should require a signed peace treaty or complete victory. No one goes home till the job is done.

DMT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:32am PT
Chaz is making a lot of sense on this thread.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:47am PT
From what came out this morning it looks more conclusively that it was Assad that did the gassing.

Chemical weapons are portable and concealable. Accelerating Assad's removal may only place them in the hands of Al-Qaeda, etc. sooner rather than later.



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Like Assad is actually in charge....

Assad didn't gas those people. Probably found out after the fact. The people in his regime know what will happen if they lose, they saw it in Iraq. Backs to the wall... what have they to lose?

Everything.

Kill Assad, changes nothing.

Dorks.

DMT
WTF

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Cool maybe we can nuke them all and that will solve the problem.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:27am PT
I'm not so sure what we think we're seeing in Syria is what's really happening.

Both sides - and especially the Free Syrian Army - are very media savvy, and have extensive p.r. efforts designed to slant public opinion to their side.

You can tell by the quality of many of the videos being produced that they are using somewhat sophisticated equipment, such as Steady-Cam technology and advanced editing techniques.

When Madison Avenue meets the Middle East, you need to be very careful of what you assume to be facts.

Don't get me wrong, I still believe tyrants around the world deserve to meet a bad violent end. But I don't like the idea of being duped into action by a bunch of goat-herders with Steady-Cams.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Chaz...

DMT...

+1
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
I'm not so sure what we think we're seeing in Syria is what's really happening.

Damn ..... there's still intelligent people left on the planet.

Instead of these stupid Norton types everywhere ....
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:08pm PT

When Madison Avenue meets the Middle East, you need to be very careful of what you assume to be facts.

Amen.


Don't get me wrong, I still believe tyrants around the world deserve to meet a bad violent end.

I agree - but is there any reason that our country has to do the "ending?" I'm not an isolationist, but I don't see why we have to pay for "policing" the whole damn world. Let Turkey "fix" this one. Or just leave them alone to do what they do; 300 killed by gas is an outrage compared to 100,000 killed by "more comfortable means?"
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
'you want a war? YOU GO FIGHT IT - PERSONALLY. NOW!!!!'

And then tell them to put out their own house file, or arrest the local thugs, because we have no fire department or police force either.

Rational, intelligent, people don't need to go fight wars personally in order to be making good decisions about them. It is only the idiots and war-mongers that might need to learn a lesson or two before they send off someone else to fight their wars.

You seem like a smart guy who would not need to have served to make good decisions about wars.

I have never served but I can still have an opinion. I can still vote. I can still want our military to go fight when the time comes. Does one need to have served to be part of the country? A citizen? Do I need to have been a fireman to then want firemen to put out fires?

It's strange that the "you can't want a war if you have never served" opinion is tolerated. It is irrational, at best. Does it apply to people who want to NOT have a war? They can't have an opinion if they never served?

Weird stuff comes from even the most intelligent types around here.

Dave
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
When Madison Avenue meets the Middle East, you need to be very careful of what you assume to be facts.

Flashback to 1990:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_for_a_Free_Kuwait

Citizens for a Free Kuwait (CFK) was an astroturf operation established by the Kuwaiti government to persuade the US public to look favourably on US military action in the Persian Gulf (the subsequent Operation Desert Storm). Its principal payment was to public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, who were associated with the false testimony to the US Congress given by Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ. [Emphasis mine]



"Fifteen-year-old "Nayirah" (Nijirah al-Sabah, daughter of Saud bin Nasir Al-Sabah Kuwait ambassador to US)

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Three months passed between Nayirah's testimony and the start of the war. During those months, the story of babies torn from their incubators was repeated over and over again. President Bush told the story. It was recited as fact in Congressional testimony, on TV and radio talk shows, and at the UN Security Council. "Of all the accusations made against the dictator," MacArthur observed, "none had more impact on American public opinion than the one about Iraqi soldiers removing 312 babies from their incubators and leaving them to die on the cold hospital floors of Kuwait City."

At the Human Rights Caucus, however, Hill & Knowlton and Congressman Lantos had failed to reveal that Nayirah was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family. Her father, in fact, was Saud Nasir al-Sabah, Kuwait's Ambassador to the US, who sat listening in the hearing room during her testimony. The Caucus also failed to reveal that H&K vice-president Lauri Fitz-Pegado had coached Nayirah in what even the Kuwaitis' own investigators later confirmed was false testimony.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
We've done so much to destabilize the ME that no one wants to step in and clean up our sh#t. Syria will merely be a testing ground for the technology developed in destroying Iraq. Iraq 2.0 in a sense.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Aug 28, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Those who might be puzzled by our pending involvement in Syria may be getting a hint from the Saudis. The Saudis support the military in Egypt. This is no surprise, one autocratic regime supporting another. However, in Syria, they are supporting the rebels. The Saudis want to be top dog in the Persian Gulf and are concerned by the rise of Iran, who, coincidentally, is supporting the Assad regime.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Do we any national security interest in bombing Syria?

Except as a convenient place with a good excuse (nerve gas) to expend
munitions the military industrial complex will then re-order to keep their
pile of bombs at its mandated size?

The assembly line techs who make cruise missiles have nothing to do unless
their are periodic low intensity exchanges.


and it is brilliant business leadership when you create a new market for your
single use
multi-million dollar product.

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 28, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Do we any national security interest in bombing Syria?


it's a Vangaurd thing
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
A super sonic sea skimming cruise missile almost sunk an Israeli ship
a few years back off the Syrian coast. (probably Russian made)

Our fleet must have developed a defense against it or we would not be so bold to promenade our forces off that particular shore.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Our fleet must have developed a defense against it or we would not be so bold to promenade our forces off that particular shore.

Yes, we have a perfect defense against it: staying out of range. The
Yakhonst only has a range of 300 km. F-18 Super Hornets have a combat
radius three times that, without re-fueling.

I rather doubt that we will send carrier-based planes in to deliver our
'message'. Our supply of cruise missiles is more than ample. Personally,
I don't think we should waste any.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
All told, after reading all the conspiracy theories, the very valid reasons that only old duffers ever order kids into battle, that there is no way bombing Syria will sway the political process in any way shape or form, that if Assad gets run out even more radical factions will fill possibly fill the power void, that China, France, Russia, Germany, and all the rest will NEVER lead a charge in there, that we are afraid to target Assad himself, but will bomb his stuff and then reorder more bombs from our buddies, that maybe the thing to do is nothing at all. Pass the problem over to the Arab leadership and say we will support whatever action they choose to pursue. What's more, anyone calling Obama "weak" for not intervening will be allowed to parachute in-country the very next day to sort things out.

JL
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
Intervening is not weak, it is futile and pointless. Kindly lay out one
viable scenario that could even remotely effect positive change over there.

(did you read my post on the last page?)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 28, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Rational, intelligent, people don't need to go fight wars personally in order to be making good decisions about them.

Yeah? Well those rational and intelligent f*#ktards who beat the war drums for WMDs in Iraq and to punish the beat farmers of Afghanistan for 'harboring' sure made some stupid decisions.

The very fact you compre invasion forces of a volunteer military to cops and fire people suggests to me you don't quite get it... but perhaps you do and just don't care (that you could be sending people to die in foreign lands simply to make you feel better about something or other).

The Iraq invasion was monumentally stupid.
DMT
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 28, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
^^^ Sounds like you have NO trust that your government will do the right thing Dingus.

Keep hope alive bruther.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
No my lack of trust is in my fellow citizens. We get the government we tolerate.

DMT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
I sure don't trust the government to do anything other than what the defense industry lobbyists tell them to do.

Pretty easy really: (1) don't bomb and nothing happens and the U.S. forgets about Syria in a week; (2) bomb and unleash some shitstorm of unintended consequences, all of which will require increased military spending.

I wonder what will happen??

I'm with DMT, unless you are willing to go there and do it yourself it just isn't worth doing.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:08pm PT


The Iraq invasion was monumentally stupid.


Absolutely true (although really, you might have understated it). And intervening in Syria would/will be equally stupid.

Let them fight their own wars. The name of our country is the United States of America, not the World's F&*$ing Policeman.

Spend the money we'll waste in a hopeless situation on fixing streets or educating children or something positive within this country.
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Exclusive: McCain Says Obama Gave ‘Green Light’ to Syria to Use Chemical Weapons.
Sen. John McCain blasts the president and his top military officer for being too soft on previous allegations of chemical attacks.

Why in the holy fuking world do you Americans allow this jackass discusting traitor John McCain to even exist anymore.

He should be arrested that despicable excuse for a human being.

He's a liar and disinfo aszhole working for Israel of the highest order.

Traitor ....
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I don't think it has anything to do with policing, but rather increasing US advantage in the ME. Where was the intervention in Rwanda? That's right, no natural resources, except for the key component in the manufacturing of cell phones. Seeing as how those aren't made here, who gives a sh#t? Our priorities are oil, oil, and more fukin oil. Is that pipeline through Afghanistan started yet?
coastal_climber

Trad climber
north island
Aug 28, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Here's an idea; mind your own f*#king business.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 28, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Coastal climber said:
"Here's an idea; mind your own f*#king business."

Here's another idea; this IS minding our own f*#king business. How would it knott be?
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
I agree - but is there any reason that our country has to do the "ending?" I'm not an isolationist, but I don't see why we have to pay for "policing" the whole damn world.

Roger that. So much time and money being spent to solve (and creating) the world's problems when there is so much to do here in our own country. It is sad to see all the crap going on in the world. But our "noble" efforts to make the world safe don't seem to have had much impact in the big picture. Tough calls to be made. I'm just so tired of it all. It is so sickening to see the sh!t going on, but really, in the end what will be accomplished? I'm not smart enough to know how to solve the world's problems, but don't really think throwing a billion dollars worth of bombs will do any good.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Our priorities are oil, oil, and more fukin oil. Is that pipeline through Afghanistan started yet?

No, now that we got fracking, you libs are going to have to invent some other bogeyman that allegedly drives all foreign policy.
(My unoriginal theory--the good ol' military-industrial complex has a lot to do with it--what fun is it building an insanely large and powerful military if you never get to use it?)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Blah blah BLAH...good point...If the pentagon doesn't use all that hardware it will not be replaced...Killing other nationals stimulates parts of our economy...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
My post from the 2008 'Changing how the US goes to war' thread and I still stand by it:

The topic was mentioned in another thread. But there are simple measures which could be instituted relative to put how we go to war on a sane and rational footing:

 Allow the President to dispatch up to 20k troops to any two discontiguous conflicts for six months on their signature alone with a one week notice to Congress.

 Within that one week Congress can overide that decision with the same margin required to override a veto.

 The day the President wants a third dispatch, a contiguous dispatch, one body more than 20k in any one conflict, or wants one more day past six months in any one conflict, they will need to seek a formal Declaration of War agreed to by Congress by the same margin required to override a veto.

 The day a passed Declaration of War is signed by the President the following will occur: a non-exempt military draft lottery for men and women age 18-35, freeze on wholesale prices, 15% national war sales tax, 15% war tax on capital gains.

 Those protocols would remain in effect until the day troop levels are below 20k and the Congress rescinds the Declaration of War by the same margin required to override a veto.

Do that, and there will be precious few wars started, corporations and republicans will become anti-war protesters overnight, and what wars do get past those hurtles will be staggeringly brief.

This was more or less a follow-up post to an Iraq Exit Strategy thread post from 2005
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 28, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Allow the President to dispatch up to 20k troops to any two discontiguous conflicts for six months on their signature alone with a one week notice to Congress.

Sorry but your plan is already obsolete: as Obama has discovered, in the new world of drone strikes, "troops" are increasingly irrelevant to how we kill them damn foreigners.
I'm sure the military-industrial complex is laughing all the way to the bank--getting rid of U.S. soldiers just eliminates a burdensome cost to their otherwise lovely business model.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Now if i was a talibaner, what would i do to elicit response, help, aid, funds and guns? Knowing fully well as a talibaner, i wont even blink twice over killing my own people.
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Assad didn't do it .....

You stupid Americans will never learn.

You're too stupid.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Allow the President to dispatch up to 20k troops to any two discontiguous conflicts for six months on their signature alone with a one week notice to Congress.
Sorry but your plan is already obsolete: as Obama has discovered, in the new world of drone strikes, "troops" are increasingly irrelevant to how we kill them damn foreigners.

That 20k rubric will include any form of military deployment, i.e. drones or cruise missiles under the control of the US military would be included. Drones under other agency control such as the CIA is a different matter and if we don't want our intelligence agencies in the assassination business then that is more properly addressed in Congress and the courts.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Starting to think that way also Werner. Funny how few if any Taliban fighters were gassed.?>>? Lots of innocent women children and men... Now if Assad was going to use gas, wouldnt he do so against the actual taliban forces fighting his forces?



Nothing like choosing between Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer for a baby sitter...
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
Ron

Now you're becoming an intelligent American ....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:39am PT
I could see either side gassing. I would think that both sides have access to chemical weapons.

The more extremist rebels, from different countries, want an Islamic state. Assad just wants power.

This is a lose-lose situation.

The only winners are the arms dealers.

As for Russia, they are still pissed off for selling Alaska so cheap. Ask Sarah Palin. She can see Russia from her front door. And she is not even Alaskan.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Only Werner has identified the true beneficiary of a war with Syria. In ancient Rome, when someone was assassinated, the question was always "Que Bene?" Who benefits. In this case, I too suspect a "false flag" operation.

This is another International Tar Baby, just waiting for some dunce to throw a punch at it. I hope Obama is smart enough (though I doubt it...) to avoid making another error.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:27am PT
A wise man once said.

"The first casualty of war is the truth"

Another observation.
This administration had more difficulty figuring out what happened in our own embassy when three people were killed than it seems to have in declaring this a gassing and ASSad responsible.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:29am PT
Just remember there are hard asses in any government who are willing to burn the rule books and 'do the terrible-right thing.' Switch pullers, button pushers, and them that give orders to carry out distasteful tasks they would never ever do themselves.

The US government and military have plenty of those people. So too does Israel, I met some of them last time I was there ;-)

Then again so to the combatants in Syria and so too of her neighbors.

If the EU or NATO (remember that sh#t?) or the US or pretty much anyone wants to drop bombs on Syria, they don't HAVE to do it themselves... they merely need to let slip the hounds of war in the Promised Land.

Let them run, see how they run....

DMT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:36am PT
Ron

Now you're becoming an intelligent American ....

Agreed, Ron has come a long way. Hopefully we can all take some credit for that, lol. On Syria, the best quote is from Zbigniew Brezyinski, who just said that if Obama has a strategy for Syria, its one of the best kept secrets in the government.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Credit: internet
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Any nation can be seen as a family of people. Once a family gets dysfunctional, outside help is often needed; but how often and how effectively can change be forced on any family or nation?

It is probably not possible to change Syria to our liking. Likely the only thing that is doable per the gassing is to punish the boss, under whose watch this terrible thing happened. If that became a policy, that the man in charge (and it's always a male in Arab conflicts) was forfeited per any use of WMDs, gas etc., then perhaps that is something to consider. But if you look at the concept and statistics per force being a deterrent (even the death penalty), the track record is piss poor.

Perhaps the biggest challenge is to manage the impulse to use aggression, and going easy on the propaganda insisting that lest we act with murderous force we are weak. The stronger act might be self control.

It's ugly.

JL
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
This is first and foremost a long-simmering tribal / sectarian conflict - Shiite (government, minority) vs. Sunni (opposition, majority) - that has drug in Iran, Hezbollah, and every random Sunni nutjob with a gun. Secondly it's a regional sectarian proxy war between Iran (Shiite) and Saudi Arabia / Qatar (Sunni). And third it's a geo-political Cold War remnant because Syria provides Russia with it's only Mediterranean naval port and presence which it doesn't want to lose.

The Sunni vs. Shiite aspect of it means we don't really any measure of control or influence over the conflict: both sides think we're asshats, Shiites don't like us, and fundamentalist Sunnis don't care for us either. But by and large we align with Sunnis over Shiites due to oil and Israel.

Beyond our clumsy history with Iran, the regional proxy aspect of it all leaves us having to throw in with our petroleum partners, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Israel factors in heavily at this level as well. Then there's also just a lot of regional consequences finally coming to fore and playing out from old colonial, 19th & 20th century, less-than-informed western powers decision-making.

And of course, denying Putin his only ported Mediterranean naval presence is high on the candy list, but circumstances are so murky, confused, and out-of-control everyone would prefer the opportunity had never happened. China plays into it all peripherally supporting Iran and generally views western and muslim-on-muslim turmoil as being to its regional and geo-political advantage and would probably love to stir the pot some more if it could figure out how.

All-in-all it's a clusterf*#k of epic proportions which, absent the Israeli/Hezbollah and Russian components we'd be far less interested in. But even setting WMD-use aside, no one has good or clear options here - not us, not Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia / Qatar, or Israel. It's definitely not an 'Obama' deal of any kind beyond being stuck with it and their probably unwise 'red line' comments.

But the whole WMD aspect of the conflict also plays against Iran which has been heavily critical of any use of gas weapons in the wake of the Iran/Iraq war where they saw heavy use. So if it can be definitively proven the Assad's forces used the WMDs it puts Iran between a rock and a hard place politically.

As to who used the WMDs, the Syrian military probably has poorly-controlled, 'loose' elements within it at this point and there are no shortage of opposition elements angling to drag us into a more direct role the conflict. Obama gave them an opening for that with his ill-advised 'red line' rhetoric. As for any talk of our government wanting to go in and running a 'false-flag' operation to trigger our entry - complete rubbish - like get-a-grip, pull-your-head-out-of-your-ass-and-back-away-from-the-internet mindlessness. Crikey.

By and large it's a shitstorm for all concerned and no one - and I mean no one - has good options in front of them.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
They are not suggesting its the US government that planted the false flag, dude. Its Israel that is getting fingered. Come on, get with the paranoia man, its ZOG they're after.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Benghazi is a veritable Disneyland compared to Syria. No one wants to go in - its a proxy war by design and no one is interested in going in because the odds are good it will further devolve from localized nightmare to an uncontrollable regional debacle with decades of fallout here at home.

Everyone wanting to rush in better be prepared for a long and painful tango of unexpected consequences and that's why the Obama crew is mewling and mealy-mouthing this issue until the last possible minute.

Joe, I added your opinion from a week ago to what you just said because I think you're right on target from my viewpoint.

Syria, like Lebanon, has an exceedingly complex demographic and political landscape. There is a very large Christian minority there, that is terrified of an Islamic opposition gaining control. That minority is probably larger, in percentage terms, than the Copts in Egypt. Although it mostly consists of Syrian Christians (fairly close to Greek Orthodox in worship and doctrine), it also includes at least two ancient ethnic groups -- Assyrians and Armenians -- that are almost entirely Christian.

The Assad regimes (father and son) generally left the Christians alone, so they have not been particularly supportive of insurgencies that appear to have the potential of Islamic emphases. This, of course, makes them vulnerable to atrocities if those insurgencies prevail. It's rather like the Tories in the American Revolution, except there is no Great Britain to protect them.

I know the Armenian missionary community is working on contingency plans for evacuation if needed, but things haven't been so good for the Syrian Christians. Already, two leaders have been kidnapped and, assuming they are still alive, held incommunicado.

As distasteful as it may seem to refrain from insisting on regime change immediately, I think the Obama administration is acting wisely here. As much as I hate to see America lacking leadership here, this ship has a million rudders but no sails. We can't steer it, and even if we could, it can't move.

Any course, no matter how seemingly cautious or decisive, has terrible consequences. Until we can see our way more clearly -- in an area where our intelligence has been exceedingly bad -- we should be extremely wary of substantial military involvement.

John
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
" Imagine the poor bastards in the 72 Yakhont 3M55E supersonic anti-ship cruise missile mobile Bastion launch vehicles are not feeling the love
today sitting on the Syrian coast waiting for

US Navy
1000lb Tomahawk warheads
to explode less than 10 feet away (min circular error targeting)"

advice- get out of the vehicles and run away boys!



blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
When even D. Rumsfeld says for attacking Syria hasn't been made, I hope Obama is listening.
(He's also got some penetrating critiques on Obama's "strategy," such as it is, but whaddaya expect, no one voted for Obama cuz they thought he knew jack sh#t about foreign policy, or even cared about it really.)
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/08/29/rumsfeld-architect-of-iraq-war-says-obama-hasnt-yet-justified-syria-attack/?hpt=hp_t1
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
As distasteful as it may seem to refrain from insisting on regime change immediately, I think the Obama administration is acting wisely here. As much as I hate to see America lacking leadership here,

Leadership? You have got... to be kidding me. Leadership?

The US hasn't shown any leadership in the mid-East in decades. The implication of its possibility is almost laughable.

The real question is whether to position for additional plunder in the region. That's not leadership at least not as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

Bush and the Neocons threw a large boulder into the small pond of the mideast and this is one of the ripples. Leadership?

My friend, you seem to look at the world through 1950s glasses!

DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
They are not suggesting its the US government that planted the false flag, dude. Its Israel that is getting fingered. Come on, get with the paranoia man, its ZOG they're after.

Israel doesn't want this sh#t happening either and certainly don't want us mucking about in the mix given they know that's always like asking an clumsy elephant to a tea party, particularly in this instance where there are no good options. The Israelis would far prefer a stable, Assad-led Syria to this nightmare so scratch an Israeli false-flag op off the list.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
DMT, I think we actually agree. My point in that statement was that it is usually in our interest to lead the international community, but the US has usually shown no real understanding anywhere in the Middle East since at least the 1950's. We acted wisely in refusing to intervene in the Suez crisis, and our intervention in Lebanon under Eisenhower (and with UN blessing) was helpful according to my relatives there. Otherwise we're an outsider looking into a very clouded window.

While we had a few successes since -- the Israel/Egypt agreement was, to my mind, a very substantial achievement (that, sad to say, cost Sadat his life), the law of unintended consequences has overwhelmed any policy objectives or initiatives we've tried.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
If we do nothing, Obama's word is sh#t. "Redline" has zero resolve behind it.

If we do do something, there'll be photos circulating the globe of dead babies among American cruise missile fragments.

I'm surprised a political animal like Obama was so short-sighted to issue a "don't do it, or else" threat to the Syrians without considering what would happen if Assad called his bluff.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
I already wrote that it is a lose-lose situation.

I have no answers but I see a bad moon arising.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
I'm surprised a political animal like Obama was so short-sighted to issue a "don't do it, or else" threat to the Syrians without considering what would happen if Assad called his bluff.

So what if Assad did call his bluff?
Obviously the bluff didn't work in the first place, so it's not as if Obama's word had anyone especially scared before this incident.
Seem to me that Obama's word was already sh#t--this just confirms it a little more, but the status quo is unchanged.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Although I think what's happening in Syria is a tragedy, sad, and deplorable, we should keep our presence out of there.

We should, voice our objections, along with the world community, to what
is happening there, but we have LOTS of problems here in this country that should take priority over some other country's problems.

Bombing Syria is not going to solve the problem. It's just going to create
more animosity, and retaliatory actions against us.
We don't need that right now. We need to get our oun house in order,
and that is a monumental project in itself.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
If we do strike it will be us, the UK, and France. Targets will probably be their SCUDs and WMD facilities unless those have been 'urbanized'. It's highly unlikely we'd target anything down at the port.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Don't do it....IMHO.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Let the bastards kill each other off. If we get involved it will just give them more fuel with which to hate us. Let them all die.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Well, that approach did work for the feds for awhile down in Appalachia.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
There seems to be a real consensus here with the Libtards and Conservitards actually agreeing that we need to keep our a$$e$ outa' there! As the site Libertarintard, I have to agree. All I see is more misery for all concerned, regardless of what "we" do or don't do.

Added as an edit: I have to agree fully with Sierra Ledge Rat ^^^^.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Preventing a further destabilization of Lebanon is also high on the interest list for all western powers and Israel as well so Hezbollah is a major concern and wildcard in all this. If Assad falls they'll be cut off from Iran and a lot of folks with grudges against them, including Israel, will start picking away at them. They can see that writing on the wall and are now cornered, unpredictable, and even more dangerous than usual as a result. So if Assad does fall then it's going to be hard to stop yet another civil war from erupting in Lebanon.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Credit: internet
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Israel is the main major player behind this sh!t.

Those that even "think" they are not are idiots.

They've been caught red handed everywhere pulling off these false flag events to blame on someone else.

Stupid Americans have no fuking clue .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Werner, in this case you are utterly and hopelessly clueless.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
All the evidence is stacked against these aszholes.

You're blind as a bat as usual ....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Trust me, I'm no friend of the Israelis, but this definitely isn't a play of theirs.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 29, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
http://theaviationist.com/2013/08/27/e-6-syria/#.Uh_e_W3Nlbc
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 29, 2013 - 07:56pm PT


http://rawwscoop.com/2013/08/28/no-negotiation-china-and-russia-walk-out-of-un-security-council-meeting-this-isnt-an-exercise/
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:03pm PT


Trust me, I'm no friend of the Israelis, but this definitely isn't a play of theirs.

All the evidence is stacked against these aszholes.

You're blind as a bat as usual ....


Iran declared they will attack Israel if Israel attacks Syria.
If the US attacks Syria, Syria says it will retaliate against Israel.

U.S. > Syria > Israel > Syria / Iran > Israel / U.S. > Iran Poof, ww3.

U.S. is being a Police State bully right now, and using these "Chemical attacks", which were MOST LIKELY conceived by the CIA, to give the U.S. probably cause to f*#k with Syria and start this sh#t.

Syria was their way in, they took it.

Let's just hope id deescalates quickly. As much as I hate Iran, we don't need to put Syria in the middle of another war, they're already torn apart already.


This entire situation is one giant mess, and the U.S. Government is not listening to the people of it's very own country. Something like 94% of Americans don't want to intervene with Syrian crisis, with only 6% who are willing to go to war with Syria.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
U.S. is being a Police State bully right now, and using these "Chemical attacks", which were MOST LIKELY conceived by the CIA, to give the U.S. probably cause to f*#k with Syria and start this sh#t.
They are chemical attacks and no, the US and Israel had nothing to do with them and the last thing the US wants to do is 'f*#k' with Syria in this kind of context. And the last thing Israel wants is us wading into the mess making it way worse than if they handled it themselves.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
"U.S. is being a Police State bully right now, and using these "Chemical attacks", which were MOST LIKELY conceived by the CIA, to give the U.S. probably cause to f*#k with Syria and start this sh#t.

Syria was their way in, they took it.

Let's just hope id deescalates quickly. As much as I hate Iran, we don't need to put Syria in the middle of another war, they're already torn apart already.


This entire situation is one giant mess, and the U.S. Government is not listening to the people of it's very own country. Something like 94% of Americans don't want to intervene with Syrian crisis, with only 6% who are willing to go to war with Syria. "












And what can the 94% do about it?
If we do something, all those APCs, millions of bullets,and so called Fema camps that the government is stockpiling and building here in the US
will be used.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
which were MOST LIKELY conceived by the CIA, to give the U.S. probably cause to f*#k with Syria and start this sh#t.

That statement is on the goofy side of reality.

The professionals don't want to do this!

The right doesn't want to do this!

The left doesn't want to do this!

The libertarians don't want to do this!

The British don't want to do this!

The French never want to do anything!

There's only one joker that wants to do this!





healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
There's only one joker that wants to do this!

That's a completely ridiculous statement given he's been ducking and dodging to avoid doing anything since the conflict broke out. Get a grip, the only one who wants to do this is McCain.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Healyje--

Maybe we should just let Israel "handle it themselves!"

I support both Werner and Sierra Ledge Rat---and even Dr.F in this case.

By the way--what are the points worth "negotiating?"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Barry's middle east policy failures started shortly after his inauguration when he REFUSED to support the green revolution in Iran.

He's picked the wrong side on every occasion since.

Now he wants to make American air-power Al-Qaeda's air force.

How's that Hopey changey thing working out for you?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
I just got an email from Weld_It; even he gets it.

Fakt: Its all fukked up over their.
Fakt: Anything we do will piss off everybody and acheev nothing.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Obama is looking like a war monger.

EDIT: The UK said nope.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Oh bummer will launch missiles and then give speech.

"My fellow stupid Americans these missiles will bring much new hope and change".

"Now go back and drool to your usual TV program and beer"

"Thank you fellow stupid Americans" ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Barry's middle east policy failures started shortly after his inauguration when he REFUSED to support the green revolution in Iran.

Exactly what more would you have had him do? Invade? Bomb? What?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
We really need a military coup of our own at this point...

Disgusting murderous criminals are pulling the strings of our front running puppets.

What gets me is the audacity of these pricks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
The level of fantasy, cluelessness, and circle-of-old-ladiesness here is pretty amazing.

The military isn't out-of-hand, the Executive is and that's brought to you directly by Reagan, Bush, & W (particularly W's appointment of Robersts and Alito who are staunch supporters of enhanced Executive power).
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Yep
Regan and Bush are making him do this...

Oh, wait...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
H,, you better see NDAA 2013. Obummer took that ball and ran with it. THE MOST FEKKED UP excuse for a president EVER. Now he will sling missiles in yet another debacle..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
They aren't making him do it, but Reagan and the Bushes set the stage for why we are at this juncture. I didn't vote for Obama in the primaries specifically because I knew he wouldn't take any hard lines, would always play the middle-ground, and do the least possible to rock-the-boat relative to real changes the country needs. It was all clear as a bell in advance if you followed Chicago politics at all.

A perfect example of that is Obamacare - a complete abortion which doesn't get the insurance industry out of basic healthcare. And in the highly polarized nation we are left with in Karl Rove's wake Obama (and the democratic elite) don't have the balls to stand up to the fusillade of criticism that would be launched by the right if he actually walked away from the NSA programs, Iraq and Afghanistan.

But make no mistake, all of this - the NSA spying, the military engagements, and the complete roving shitstorm that is now the Mideast are all products of the Reagan, Bush, and W's push for executive power to execute their respective [fantasy] agendas. Obama's all to predictable failure is his inability and unwillingness to take on conservatives and their media hounds directly and make the hard calls to shut everything down.

P.S. Ron, you are so clueless about the NDAA 2013 as to be pointless to banter about it.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
Pretty good assessment of the catertoconvention/don'trocktheboat foreign 'policy' of President Obama, right there healyje. Agree as to the influence and 'setup' of ReaganBushCoClinton. Culmination of oil politics and might makes right policy.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
No, no i am not H. Massive differences between the patriot acts and the NDAA 2013. They are ALL designed to increase executive,,, no, strike that, they are all designed to give blatant and illegal powers to the president.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
H-

How does it feel to be entirely alone on this issue?
Yeah, go back to Reagan, and then go further back to LBJ and Vietnam--and JFK with the Bay of Pigs. Try McKinley and Cuba (1898). Of course Woodrow Wilson "Kept us out of war..." oh...I guess that was only a mistake on the teleprompter. Oops! No teleprompter then..Just Edward Mandel House (Rothschild agent) pulling the strings.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
awww pooooor docFraud... his hero goin down the path of shame .. BWAAAAAAAAAAAhahahahahaa!
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
DrF
Sorry if we insulted your girlfriend.

Oh wait... Never mind.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
In my gamer days we'd call what DrF is doing

Hanging on the jockstrap.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
No matter what the USA does, it will be wrong, so why bother kicking the hornet's nest?

If you're going to be wrong regardless, then just stay at home with a beer and watch South Park
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Boooom!^^^^^^^+1
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
Obama will blow some meaningless crap up with cruise missiles. Probably within the next few days.

It will kill some decent folks just trying to make it through tough times. (this includes syrian soldiers)

ASSad will continue unscathed.

Bet ya I'm right and I'll give ya 5 to 1 odds.

wanna put a 20 on it?

I'd sure be glad to lose that $100 but I doubt I will.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
"taking a shot across the bow" in this case is not too smart. Both China and Russia walked out of the UN today in protest to US policies. This used to be called "brinksmanship" in the Cold War days. There are 3 nuclear armed interested parties on the other side: Russia, China, and Pakistan.

Overall, this is a recipe for a nuclear confrontation, and not the simple slap-down job to a petty tyrant suggested by others on this site.

In an unemotional and non-confrontational examination of the situation, there is more than the media has presented.
(1) There are some dead people, and presumed gassed by Sarin.
(2) Assumption # 1 is that Assad did it; but only dead women and children shown. If Assad wanted to send a message, there would be lots of dead soldiers, too.
(3) Another hypothesis is it's a "false flag" operation to provoke a US response; perpetrators could be (a) Israel; (b) CIA; (c) rival Islamic groups.

Best course of action: there really isn't one; no action is the best action here.

I rest my case.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
+1 Rodger.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
plus another Brokedown!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
A weak President would fire cruise missles to back up his "red line" boasts....

......a strong President would leave this alone for now.

So clearly, missles will be fired.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
There is only one proper target.

ASSad. He should be held resposible for the use of chemical weapons on his soil.

Regardless whether he ordered their use or even if they originated from his stores. Hell even if Israel did it. I am fine with making it clear to any dictator anywhere that WMDs possession is not in their best interest. Makes them too vulnerable to other folks getting us to kill them.

Captain of the ship.. no defense.. no excuses.

No one and nothing else should be targeted.

No other involvement in the syrian civil war should be pursued.

the climbski2 doctrine. Usage of chemical weapons on the soil of a known dictatorial possessor of chemical weapons will be grounds for the elimination of said nations leadership.

sadly i suspect others will suffer for this and the whole situation will continue to get worse and we will blacken our own eye.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
NO ONE is the "world police".. That is a fallacy perpetrated by our govt to excuse the waste of lives and money. We have NOT changed or made ANYWHERE better since 1945.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
Kuwait

Sadly America is a worse place to live by far than it was when I was a child.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Climb, you're falling for the nonsense.

Assad isn't an idiot. He is winning the war and had everything to lose.

There is zero reason for Assad to use crude chemical weapons on civilians. Ask yourself, how are these crude chemical weapons any more effective than conventional bombs, bullets, and fire? They're not.

"Weapons of Mass Destruction"? Please. It's all marketing. Killing is killing. These weren't nukes. They only thing they could trigger is the plans of the USSA for more conquest and more dead brown people. It's good for business and gets the sheeple's mind off of the NSA and every other crime committed by our regime. We've been itching to bomb more brown people now for months.

We financed these "rebels". We got them weapons, we trained them, we helped them. Our government is as guilty as the men who actually pulled the trigger on these women and children this time.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 12:22am PT
no not falling for any nonsense.. I'm just good with any excuse to assassinate a dictator.
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2013 - 12:25am PT
climbski2 -- "i'm just good with any excuse to assassinate a dictator"


We should just start with you since you're dictating so much ......
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 12:32am PT
IM GUNNA DIE!


Ok If Werner ASSasinates me.. just let him go..

I'll be fine and he has important work to do that would be hampered in prison.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:54am PT
They'd like to sink some of our navy, give us a bloody nose without getting
pounded in return.

A trick they'd like to figure out. But it always leaves fingerprints:
radar data showing where the missiles came from.

Ideally they'd like to launch from anywhere but their own territory for plausible deniability.

Say a fishing boat that's never been to Syria and big enough to hide a cruise missile launch system inside that gets burned and sunk afterwards obscuring evidence. But we watch for that also.
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:10am PT
Credit: command error

Some comments on CIWS

Ah yes, of course!! also called the "abandon ship" weapon.
If you are down to CIWS...you are already in deep, deep, doodo.
They are cool gadgets though...

Supersonic cruise missile is way a potent threat to a cruiser/destroyer type.

Phalanx are generally good for Sub-Sonic-Missiles but when your talking
about stuff like ballistic missiles or hypersonic cruise missiles good
luck. There was something the naval institute came out with I was reading
that said that carriers are pretty much scrap metal when it comes to
defending against ballistic missiles. Since they have zero defense
against them. Why they don't sail alone.

Now an AB missile destroyer may have a good chance.

Ok let me calculate & show you why its not so good
Phalanx effective range=1.5km=1500m
Yakhont speed= 8oom/s
Max ideal engagement time= ~2s
Max rate of fire Phalanx= 4500roundsperminute=75roundspersecond
Max ideal bullets towards approaching threat=~150

so I think you are shooting less than 150 bullets upon an object the size of your desktop screen ain't so good at all, that may still hit the ship even after it blows up. Sort of like a supersonic fireball wrapped around a shotgun blast of missile parts.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 05:30am PT
One would suspect that our ships in the area have SeaRAMs. I'd personally worry more about Russian supercavitating torpedos, but I doubt the Russians will doing any shooting regardless of what goes on unless we target the port, then all bets are off.

Also: http://defensetech.org/2013/08/21/navy-overhauls-phalanx-ship-defense-weapon/
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 30, 2013 - 09:50am PT
"The Media" is once again complicit in beating the war drums. It's called playing the "atrocity card." We all have a gut response to seeing dead children and women; not so much seeing dead militiamen. This is a very clever psy-op being conducted by someone, but we don't know just whom to blame, do we? In a rush to judgment, all the fingers are pointed at ASSad; we need to follow the pointing back on a reciprocal course to see who is actually calling the shots.

That said, if we simply walk away from this clusterfuk in the ME, we save lots of $$$ and potentially more American lives.

Sarin, by the way, isn't that great as a CW agent since it's non-persistent. Wait until some a$$hat reels out Tabun which is an order of magnitude worse and is absorbed through the skin in addition to simply breating a whiff of it.
Cragar

Trad climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:34am PT
I agree with you Ron, except..

NO ONE is the "world police".. That is a fallacy perpetrated by our govt to excuse the waste of lives and money. We have NOT changed or made ANYWHERE better since 1945.

The wasted money is that of the taxpayers while the elite line their lovely laced lined pockets whilst laughing lock-jawed all the way to the bank, vineyard, lake..etc.etc. War is a profit machine. Atrocious at best.
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:50am PT
They are not playing "world police".

It's used as an excuse to further the original agenda.

5 countries in 5 years.

Take over the mideast and democratize it and get control of the resources to feed the monster modern technological machine.

Stupid modern society has created the machine monster and it needs to eat.

Modern scientists and politicians are just plain stupid ultimately.

Everything they touch ultimately turns to sh!t.

They are just beginning to realize it because nature is retaliating heavily.

They know we can't sustain and keep feeding this present stupid monster machine indefinably.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:58am PT
Werner, have you ever used a thesaurus? I'm sure you can find a lot of options for "stupid"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Wait until some a$$hat reels out Tabun which is an order of magnitude worse and is absorbed through the skin in addition to simply breating a whiff of it.

I think you are referring to VX not Tabun. All the nerve agents can be absorbed thru the skin, but VX is the only persistent one.

Only three countries ever produced it (except for the 100 grams or so that Aum Shinrikio used for an assasination)

The US and Russia have both destroyed their stockpiles.

Saddam sold his to Syria. It all got moved pre US invasion.

If that stuff gets in the hands of the "rebel" forces it won't be long till it will be making appearances around the world.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Saddam sold his to Syria. It all got moved pre US invasion.

lol
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:09am PT
If that stuff gets in the hands of the "rebel" forces


They already have it.

Who the fuk you think gassed those poor people?

Assad? You are completely 100% wrong.

The rebel's were caught red handed with the stuff.

Please do some serious real research for a change ........
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:27am PT
TGT-

You're correct about VX being the persistent CW agent. It's just that Tabun is such a bad actor that very little of it needs to be applied to have catastrophic consequences!
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
After listening to John Kerry --it is only a matter of time when we go in.

I hope like hell, if this is TRUE, we go in and get that SOB, but I also hope were not being duped again.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Hmmm lets review history briefly. The taliban is who we will deal WITH. We did that with some jerkoff named Buttwaden.. We armed him to squash a RUSSIAN influence. Then he turned around and used those same weapons against us. I know a few snake wranglers, and they to the last man will not TOUCH a two headed rattler. Why? You get bit either way you approach them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Obama: We have concluded Syrian government carried out gas attacks
President Obama said Wednesday the U.S. has 'concluded' that the murderous Bashar Assad regime killed hundreds of its own people in a toxic chemical weapons attack.

Comments (58)
BY CORKY SIEMASZKO / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

PUBLISHED: WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 28, 2013, 7:03 AM
UPDATED: THURSDAY, AUGUST 29, 2013, 1:02 AM
385
78
9

Print
AUG. 22 2013 FILE PHOTO
JACQUELYN MARTIN/AP

Few doubt that Obama is preparing for a U.S.-led military action to retaliate for what the U.S. and its allies say was a deadly chemical weapons attack perpetrated by the Syrian government.

We're going after the Syrians — whether the Russians like it or not.

That was the message from President Obama, who said Wednesday the U.S. has “concluded” that the murderous Bashar Assad regime killed hundreds of its own people in a toxic chemical weapons attack.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/kind-substance-kill-hundreds-syria-article-1.1438964#ixzz2dTScuerb






Credit: Ron Anderson
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
OK, I'll re-post this from a few days ago:

"I was hanging with my homie a couple of weeks ago. He is the #3 dude at an
embassy in the neighborhood and I don't mean Mr Roger's. He was highly
impressed with the Frenchies' effort in Mali. When I brought up Syria he
just rolled his eyes and muttered something to the effect of 'a bottomless
pit of quicksand'."

And, trust me, he has access to a whole bunch more info than all of us
combined, including Werner.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Wow, reading through the last few pages it's hard not to be struck by the amount of absolute nutjobbery and conspiracy Gomerism on display here - a veritable ensemble of pitchforks to get the moon out of the pond. Some of you guys are as bad as the neocons when it comes to fantasy and group delusion.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
The irony is that if I jumped on a plane to Syria, joined a rebel group and attacked a target that the U.S. intends to strike, I could be put in Guantanamo for conspiring with Al Aqaeda and / or the Taliban.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Im so amazed at the RAPID response, investigation AND CONCLUSION by our govt here. Especially considering we STILL dont WTF happened in Benghazi, to our OWN. But somehow we can figure out what happened between to basic Lying sides.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Aug 30, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Why is it that when someone commits a crime in plain sight of people, (Fort Hood shooter for one) He is "Aledged Shooter" for years. But the same goverment can be so positive and start a war of no return over hearsay and questionable sources? Does Israel just snap its fingers and we jump? Well its a holiday weekend and no one cares.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Benghazi, really? We know exactly what happened in Benghazi - the CIA got caught with their pants down, their station overrun, and the military refused to go in for fear of another 'Blackhawk Down' incident. This isn't vaguely in the same ballpark.

We, the Israelis, and the EU have all had our eyes on this in real-time and, while not able to track all the opposition movements and actions, those of the regime are fairly easy to track - particularly their missile and gas weapons movements, which have been under intense Israeli, US, and EU scrutiny to insure such weapon aren't transferred to Hezbollah. That's how several weapons convoys and warehouses have been taken out.

The administration's failing in this instance - as in the NSA / FISA case - is not making the full body of evidence public. To fail to do so against the backdrop of the NSA/Snowden fiasco and ask the public to trust those who've seen the evidence is akin to asking us to trust the FISA court. We don't. There is no doubt intelligence sources / capabilities the US would rather keep secret, but the Internet cuts both ways and we are rapidly approaching a 'post-secret' world.

I have no doubt, however, when they say they can document satellite data for a coordinated WMD rocket attack originating from regime held areas followed up with intense conventional bombardment; that they have SIGINT on regime emails related to that attack both pre- and post-attack; and that the timing of social media traffic and NGO statements all line up with those attacks. If they didn't, or any of their evidence so much as smelled bad, then folks like Ron Wyden, Susan Collins, and others like them with access to the intelligence would definitely be saying so and loudly. So again, I don't doubt the evidential basis for a strike, but do question the wisdom of one beyond the consequences of not backing-up our ill-advised 'red line' comment. The irony of that comment was it was meant to establish a threshold such that we'd never have to enter the conflict, but the Baathists have for decades shown a willingness to use chemical weapons and that underestimation makes us look all the more foolish.

A strike will no doubt target airpower, armor, SCUDs, and chemical weapons (in the highly unlikely event they haven't been 'urbanized' already) - an effort to 'defang' the regime. They may even clusterbomb any and all airstrips (which would be highly ironic).
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Secretary of State Kerry just finished an excellent speech on this subject. I would urge all of you and anyone concerned with this to listen to it.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 30, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
rong just continues to show how rong rong is.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
While I am for targeting ASSad I am not for entering the war or even taking out military targets unless necessary to get ASSad.

I do say it is important to listen to what our government is saying at this time. Regardless the level of trust you may or may not have in them.

Secretary of State Kerry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/31/world/middleeast/john-kerry-syria.html?_r=0
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
"Wow, reading through the last few pages it's hard not to be struck by the amount of absolute nutjobbery and conspiracy Gomerism on display here - a veritable ensemble of pitchforks to get the moon out of the pond. Some of you guys are as bad as the neocons when it comes to fantasy and group delusion."

x2 !!!!!!!!!!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Well Kerrys speech was nice and actually FAMILIAR.

Now, he DIDNT mention the fact that the "other side" in Syria is THE TALIBAN. He DIDNT mention that that same taliban is beheading people there on a daily basis, and cutting out the hearts of soldiers to show the world.


Kerry spoke if "universal values" ~ since WHEn has there been universally accepted "values" in the world???


He told of "the world speaking out" yet he FAILS to mention even Britain has said NYET on it all.


So WHO are we "supporting" in Syria? Assad is a dictator, the other side is the Taliban. THE WORLD doesnt need either and would be better off if both were to vanish.


Kerry then mentiond that America has "always tried" to help. Korea, Nam, Iraq, Libya, et all- utter failures that wasted lives for, in the end, no change and no winning..





and there is as much info about Russian involvement on the web as Assad involvement:



Russia: Rebels staged Syria 'gas' attack
2013-08-21 23:31


(AFP)
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Hundreds dead in Damascus 'gas' attack
Damascus denies regime use of toxic gas
Syrian opposition calls for UN meeting


Moscow - Russia's Foreign Ministry called for a thorough investigation on Wednesday into reports that Syrian government forces had launched a chemical attack, suggesting that rebels could have staged the assault to provoke international action.

Syria's opposition accused President Bashar Assad's forces of gassing many hundreds of people - by one report as many as 1 300 - on Wednesday in what would, if confirmed, be the world's worst chemical weapons attack in decades.

Foreign Ministry spokesperson Alexander Lukashevich said that its sources in Syria said that a homemade rocket carrying unidentified chemical substances had been launched from an area controlled by the opposition.

"All this cannot but suggest that once again we are dealing with a pre-planned provocation," Lukashevich said in a statement.

"This is supported by the fact that the criminal act was committed near Damascus at the very moment when a mission of UN experts had successfully started their work of investigating allegations of the possible use of chemical weapons there," he said.

Russia has protected Assad during the more than two-year conflict in Syria, vetoing UN sanctions aimed at pressuring him to end violence.

Moscow has also demanded that a UN investigation into the alleged use of chemical weapons also look into possible use by rebels.

"Moscow considers important an objective and professional investigation into what happened. And we call on all those who have the possibility to influence armed extremists make every effort to end provocations with chemical agents," Lukashevich said.

 Reuters
Read more on: bashar assad | russia | syria | syria conflict
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Kerry: Syria planned chemical attack
49 minutes ago
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climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Ron. In my mind this should have nothing to do with the civil war in Syria. It has nothing to do with supporting one side or another or some faction of it.

It simply should be about enforcing the ban on the use of WMDs. We should make that very clear.

ASSad's life should be forfeit. He should be offered the ability to surrender to an international wars crimes court or face inevitable death no matter how long it takes. Like UBL.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
"THE only idea that would work there is to kill 75% of them ALL."

Once you made this comment Ron I went from skimming your posts to skipping them entirely.

Over 1400 people dead in one sarin attack. 400 children.

Erik
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
"In my mind this should nothing to do with the civil war in Syria. It has nothing to do with supporting one side or another or some faction of it.

It simply should be about enforcing the ban on the use of WMDs. We should make that very clear.

ASSad's life should be forfeit. He should be offered the ability to surrender to an international wars crimes court or face inevitable death no matter how long it takes. Like UBL."

Totally agree! Great post! Thank you.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Well why didnt we do something about the Moscow chemical attack in 2002?

Dont remember any such drum beating then.

Why didnt we attack in the Iraq/Iran war when gas was used there in 1988? Ill tell you why, because WE were involved in that one.

I could go on.. And Labrat, WHAT is your "solution" . Surgical drone strikes..Carpet bombing? Im sorry if that seemed so distasteful to you , but the reality is there are two groups of snakes fighting. Yes there are many innocents as always. But either way, at the end of any results, that will still be happening, and innocent people will still be dying.

Kimjongpuke just killed his ex GF and others for a laugh. Didnt we fight N korea back some time?

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:33pm PT


ASSad's life should be forfeit. He should be offered the ability to surrender to an international wars crimes court or face inevitable death no matter how long it takes. Like UBL."

Totally agree! Great post! Thank you.


OK, even assuming that a person agrees with this basic premise, WHY does it "have" to be the United States that does it??

Why us?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:37pm PT


Please do some serious real research for a change ........


Werner, help us all out with "real research," at least post a link or give us something to start with. Is that too much to ask?

Otherwise I'll worry that people might think that you are just spewing.

(BTW, if you're the type to get pissed that I am "questioning" you and to remember that when you're on duty, then my name is Mike Jones.)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Our Govt has been harping how WE are the world police for some time now. If they say it enough, i think they start to believe that.

Our Veterans have different stories though. What i know is that since this effort of policing the world began, very little change to anything has happened. Human rights are still a disaster in N Korea, N Vietnam, and just about anywhere in the ME and Africa. We tried to bring democracy to people who had no understanding of what that is. We tried to change Dictators only to have those backfire 100% of the time. Yeah John Kerry ,, we tried to change Egpyt recently, but how did that work for ya?

After the last couple of decades, ANYONE thinking our govt has the best interests involved in fighting foreign wars has dun drunk da coolaid.


Then we could talk about the 10 yr CHEMICAL WEAPON siege the USA did in


Vietnam..,.



From 1962 to 1971, the US military sprayed an estimated 20 million gallons of defoliants and herbicides over Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in a bid to deprive the Vietcong of food and cover.

The Vietnamese government estimates that 400,000 people were killed or maimed and 500,000 children born with birth defects as a result of the so-called 'rainbow herbicides.'
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Ron, hey, it's a friggin' Sunni-on-Shiite free for all and a few hundred Paki Taliban fighters hardly constitute or characterize the make up of the opposition which is a veritable smorgasbord of locals, foreigners, and agendas at this point.

And there's no real need to get further in-depth with your innuendo vis-a-vis W & Iraq, utter misunderstanding of what the 'Arab Spring' is or came about or means, quoting the Russians, or your bigotry and xenophobia and how they shade your views in this instance (and in all things Islamic).

Overall you just seem to keep making cluelessness a high art form. And it's not so much you can't seem to separate fact from fantasy as much as even when you have a handful of facts you utterly fail to place them in any form of reality-based context and continually draw all the wrong conclusions from them.

And in the end it gets really hard not to start considering folks like you almost as dangerous and corrosive as any radical fundamentalist. Please quit reading all that Bircher crap - it's a straw sucking all common sense from your head.

P.S. maybe start by deciding if you're a fundamentalist, a radical leftist, a wingnut righty, or whether you're just going to stick with 'independent thinker'.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
After reading the three pages I missed since I decided to do some paying work, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. Healyje is not alone in his views -- at least as to policy. He and I see this mess quite similarly, although I obviously don't agree with his partisan placement of blame. The Obama Administration has done an admirable job with the Syrian tragedy that is unfolding, on which I will amplify below.

2. "Getting the SOB" has the appeal of justice, but doing so would subject the religious minorities in Syria to catastrophe. For all its evil, the Assad regimes have largely protected religious minorities -- particularly Christians. Accordingly, those minorities have not supported the revolution. The consequences for them, if the rebels win, look deadly.

3. In light of Point No. 2, the Obama Administration has correctly declined to make regime change a U.S. demand.

4. Those who claim the use of nerve gas was a CIA/Israeli conspiracy fail to cite any evidence in support. The International Community, not just the U.S., agreed that using chemical agents should result in very serious sanctions. Now that the key members of that community refuse to engage in any military force, the Obama Administration has a choice of bad options, no matter what it does. No American President, including the current one, is responsible for the disaster unfolding in Syria, but Obama happens to be the one stuck when the music stopped. His measured and restrained actions are just that. The U.S. isn't impotent, but it's not necessarily weakness to refrain from taking action that won't accomplish a long-term goal.

Carry on.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
I do not read bircher crap specifically.


Now tell me where im wrong in the above post. We also used white phosphorus with depleted uranium ~~ guess where.


I have NOT changed one bit on my views of ANYTHING ME. We have no business in that business. WE need the HELP OURS!

DO NOT GIVE ONE TINY RIP about sunni sheite sheee-it or anything else.

A rose by any other name is still a skunk.


Same damm saber rattlers were singing about Nam and Iraq. what a de-javu listening to Kerry speech.

And Climb2ski, since we have used more chemical weaponry than about anyone else on the planet, should our leaders be killed for it?

My next to oldest brother now suffers from Agent Orange issues..




Assad killed 1400! We did in a very restrained estimate of 400,000 in Nam!!!

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
the Obama Administration has a choice of bad options

That about sums it up

RON..Regarding Vietnam.. Yeah our leaders should have been impeached, tried and caged for that BS. I'll disagree on the chemical weapons charge as it applies to depleted uranium or agent orange. I'm pretty sure others used more chemical weapons in WWI than we did and i dont think we have used em since.. but I could be wrong.. but thats just picking nits perhaps.

Same as Shrub for Iraq.

War is the most serious power we give out leadership.. if they f*#k it up they should be held responsible.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Ron, it's amazing how many humans you want killed for such an avowed pacifist. And again, by and large it's not the facts which are in contention, it's what you do with them, or rather, fail to do with them. You're like an eyes-open version of the twelve blind men and the elephant all in one body.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Well? 400,000 killed chemically in Nam by the USA. What say ya doood?


Thats the TRUE hypocrisy of Kerrys speech because he was there. He knows all of that.

The "threat of chemical weaponry" was there how long ago? When obama drew his line in the sand speech came out? That WAS the precursor to the now.

Who generated the ORIGINAL fervor over possible future chemical attacks there?


If anyone wonders "why US" it IS because its been on the table for some time now. Is any of this a surprise? Hell no.




edit: H, i simply dont want us involved in the ME anymore. We dont help, we hinder. We dont change a damm thing, other than the amount of dead before we get to the start ,, again..

Im NOT a pacifist by any stretch. But i also realize the FOLLY of "policing the world" and know in my heart that the ONLY way to win a war IS TO WAGE A WAR, and 1400 innocents killed would NOT even rate the blinking of an eye. We wont do that, so the results have been predictably and sadly identical. Hell, ill bet that many died in Africa over the last few weeks.
No uproar there.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
John: ...although I obviously don't agree with his partisan placement of blame.

It's not 'partisan'. It's simply a statement of fact that all that was entailed in executing on the Neocon's fantasy of a "New [White, Male] American Century" has unleashed a savage diminishing of America's standing in the world, screwed our economy, and entirely destablized the Mideast in ways we will be dealing with for decades to come.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
How does it matter how the innocents die? Millions have died in Africa
in just the last two decades. Oh, sure, the French went into Mali but that was
easy money compared to Rwanda, Uganda, or Zaire.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Ron

Our nation is far from being a pure moral actor in history. No one can reasonably argue that our historical hands don't have much bad blood on them. We are so hypocritical in our international affairs that it's hard to imagine a more hypocritical existence.

However this is an opportunity to enforce a worthwhile goal. Yes its sad we havn't done more at home.. yes it's clear there are many other current issues that are more important and not getting any thing done about them.

But in this case we are going to do something.. I hope whatever we end up doing is actually pertinent to the issue and effective. I'm doubtful about that though.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Pud, and others. Yes I am a die-hard liberal and yes at the US Embassy in Dublin I voted for Hillary, not Obama. I just thought she could handle matters better.

But Obama has been a big disappointment, not helped in the least by the Repugs stifling his every move in Congress and elsewhere.

What a poisoned chalice he picked up. But he is just continuing US policy of the last 50+ years. I thought he would be different, but meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

That said, who is cleaning up? The arms industry, which includes the US, China, Brazil, Russia and others.

Eisenhower warned us of the military-industrial complex, as did General Smedley Butler in the 1930s.

Now it appears to be the intelligence-industrial complex that is threatening.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Reilly, +1



ClimbTuskee,, exaclty, you already have doubts, even after Kerrys rattling speech. SO DO I!

If i was to belay you, and dropped you the first fall, then you decided to trust me again, and i dropped you again,, would you go back to trusting again? Me thinks youd be lookin fer a new belayer lol!


Go find the GWB speech on WMDs in Iraq, then compare it to Kerrys speech.. Yikes! And NO im not saying a gassing didnt happen. But i will say that being as how it was so obvious, Assad would have to be NEAR BRAIN DEAD to do that knowing fully well he would be blamed. The RUSSIAN involvement here makes perfect sense to me.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
And Ron, no one is questioning US hypocrisy or complicity in past chemical weapons use in Iraq and the Iraq/Iran war.

But let's be equally clear that the use of Agent Orange, depleted Uranium, White Phosphorus, cluster munitions, landmines, and the gas used in the Moscow theater siege are all entirely different matters then the use of specifically-designed chemical WMDs. Yes, dead is dead, but conflict is a human condition and how it is managed and conducted remains of interest to all individuals and nations.

And, if you can't discern the differences between the WMD issues and discussion between W's administration in the run up to Iraq and this one, then you are a far sorrier and pitiful mess than I imagined.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
I hate to be picky, Joe, particularly since you seem to be one of the few on this thread whose views come close to mine, but the Middle East destabilization started long before the term "neocon" existed. Somewhat ironically, the root of the problem comes from the relative tolerance of the Ottoman Empire. (And it's particularly ironic that a son of a survivor of the Armenian massacres says what I'm about to say.) Unlike most conquerors, who simply wiped out or totally assimilated the conquered, the Ottomans left the conquered free to continue to live, worship and do almost everything but govern as they did before. Accordingly, when World War I ended in the Empire's defeat, there was no easy way to dismember it, but no easy way to keep it in place, either.

Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace is probably the best single narrative of how the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire set the stage for the modern Middle East, with all of its troubles. While the United States stood by in isolationist disgust, Britain and France carved up most of the old Empire, along often completely arbitrary lines. Neither modern political party should take the blame for that. The best we could have done then in any case was to make it a three-way split.

In any case, the issue now isn't what's in the best interest of any political party. It's primarily what, if anything, can we do to avoid a humanitarian tragedy, and secondarily what is in our long-term interest. America has traditionally tried to avoid partisanship in foreign policy matters. It needs to do so now.

John
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Ron. There are 2 reasons I never joined the military even though I was drawn to it having lived around it much of my life.

I deeply respect our military I think they are one of the best run most capable organizations in the world. SO many awesome people serve.

Sadly they are used at the discretion of our political idiots.

My dad made the point to me as a youngster. Serving your country is admirable, the military life might be one you would like. But you can't trust the politicians with your life. He served during Korea and then was further disillusioned by Vietnam.

Later I found a military job I felt would be honorable and worthwhile regardless what war the politicians might get us into. Pararescue. Unfotunately my eyesight made that impossible.

A shoutout to the 210th ANG!!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Dont get me wrong man,, it ISNT and NEVER was the fault of our Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen. If LEFT to them, we would have won every damm conflict we ever entered. And i truly believe the world would now be a better place for it. Before political mico management came with technology they were functional.



H,, we knew quite well the dangers of agent orange. They tested it on our own troops. If 400K dead is just some misrepresented occurrence, then the syrian gassing was just a minor blip. And i ask you, where are the dead and dying taliban soldiers? Ive looked at all the pics i can find and dont seem to see any. A few men, citizen looking, and many women/children. If Assad knew he would be blamed, wouldnt he want to actually take out opposition soldiers ? Or would he just send up some random stink bombs?

What would YOU do if you were Assad?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
John, it is so true, the carving up of the Ottoman Empire by the British and French primarily, though there is NO excuse for the Armenian genocide, as you well know, and the Kurdish genocide. And others

And yet, the Ottoman Empire did let people of different religions co-habit together. Just like Saladin (a Kurd), after conquering the Crusaders, said to let people live in peace regardless of their religion.

The ironies of life.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
If LEFT to them, we would have won every damn conflict we ever entered.

As a veteran, I wish that were more than delusional posturing, but it isn't.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
John, we actually agree on the unenviable consequences of trying to carve up Ottoman Empire setting the stage for all that followed, but the Neocon's delusional attempt to do an end-run around the Israeli-Palestinian problem rather than deal with it has seriously destabilized the Mideast from the 'typical' chaotic of the past forty years to a complete nightmare in progress.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
Perhaps "won" may be the wrong terminology, but the end results would have been much different, and you know it H. Kimjongpuke probably wouldnt have machine gunned his ex GF the other day had Korea gone differently. From that time on, the American distaste of actual war, and politics created the quagmire we now call policing the world. Go figure.




edit: Sooo anyhoo saddam uses gas in the Iraq/Iran war with the US full knowledge and approval as he was THEN our buddy.. THATS OK. But the Syrian incident is an atrocity? Anyone see any a fair play sense here. ?

WHY if we werent worried about Iranians then, are we so concerned over Syrians now?



Answer: We were involved on the GASSERS side. Weve ALL been waiting fir the gas attack to happen since before the red line in the sand speech. OF COURSE A GASSING happened after all of that. But WHO DID IT~~~pffff..
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Ron, once China entered the war North Korea was lost - nothing was going to change that as we couldn't supply men and material at a fraction of the rate China could and we weren't as well-prepared as them to deal with the winters.

Again, great sentiment, but simply not grounded in any sort of reality.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
I beg to differ H. Who was it that invented the industrial revolution? And who was it that fought and helped significantly to win the BIG wars? In winters as harsh as they come? It was the lack of focus politically that led to the defeat in Korea. The decisive nature was then fed to the masses, and the end of fighting wars to WIN became the standard. And north Korea remains to this day a devout enemy. Along with dennis rodman, of course.



But as far as Syria, between Assad and the Taliban, which side would be more helped by a gassing on the innocents in between the two? Also ask yourself which side is KNOWN for killing innocent people? Then ask your self which side has proven before to turn against the USA after being helped by them? Then ask yourself which group perpetrates worldwide terrorism..



ps,,, much of the judgement of a man is done by looking at those he surrounds himself with. In obamas case, the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, which was a huge mistake, and now the Taliban and brotherhood in Syria. Really? What is obamas fascination with teaming with terrorists? Anyone? Bueler?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 30, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
conflict is a human condition and how it is managed and conducted remains of interest to all individuals and nations.


This is an unavoidable fact but said "managing" has not played out as advertised. Perhaps we have to go the root cause, which in every case is aggression - meaning if you remove the aggression, nothing untoward happens, from machine-gunning your former squeeze (pitiful) to gassing the natives. Here it becomes a matter of impulse control. Move up the ladder to "managing" the aggressive impulses and we're into the quagmire of "reasons," and the battle is lost already because we shunted the business into a mental game instead of where the havoc lies - in our own aggression.

Technology, facts and information of this enlightened age have done nothing to temper our aggression while we spin around talking about why we unleash the dogs of war. But it's addictive to spin around arguing reasons. Much harder work dealing with that which fuels the fire - and it ain't a "reason."

But gunning down your girlfriend. That's harsh.

JL
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Aug 30, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Maybe we should wait until Sept. 11th to bomb them, That way the world will know who were being used by this time...Who's side are we on anyway??? I don't have a clue..Lets just NOT go to war for once...Let them punch it out on their own. IF OBAMA strikes he should be impeached, This has got to stop..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Agreed Largo and Frank! +1/+1


The MAJORITY of America now seems to think much the same. Here in Nevada, due to "sequestration fallacies" , the extended UI benefits will disappear for many while being cut 59% for the rest. But we got money for another war where we have no business being or any hope of a good outcome.. Yippeee kayyaya muddu fukkas..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
They ALL go.. ZERO INCUMBENTS next elec cycle. Live it do it.



edit: and Guys, thuis isnt if but a when. It was that way the day he made his red line speech, you had to know a gassing would occur there after that..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Ive written my reps,, have you all?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 30, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Ron: But as far as Syria, between Assad and the Taliban, which side would be more helped by a gassing on the innocents in between the two?

Sigh. Ron, this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Crikey, you don't even know who is fighting in this conflict. And if you're going to bandy about the word 'Taliban' it might help if you would bother to learn who the Taliban actually are. The 'Taliban' are a Pashtun-dominated movement with it's [political] origins in Pakistan's NW tribal regions - i.e. they are not an eastern Mediterranean people, nor are they playing a significant role in the Syrian conflict beyond having sent a couple of hundred fighters so as to not be left out of the party.

Look here for the makeup of the Syrian opposition.

Also, the president (ironically) already has the legal and constitutional authority under the 1973 War Powers Resolution to strike without approval from Congress. Jimmy Carter does paint it as illegal, though only under International Law. But then you don't recognize the validity of International Law so you kind of have to go with it's legal and constitutional.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 30, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Ron said:
"Ive written my reps,, have you all?"

Not over this.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Yes H,, and Number 2 on the list of Syrian coalitions is,,,,,THE MUISLIM BROTHERHOOD.

Thank you for proving my point. Below from up thread..


"ps,,, much of the judgement of a man is done by looking at those he surrounds himself with. In obamas case, the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, which was a huge mistake, and now the Taliban and brotherhood in Syria. Really? What is obamas fascination with teaming with terrorists? Anyone? Bueler?"
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 30, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Couch, i wrote Amodie this morn about "feral horses" lol!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 30, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
http://theaviationist.com/2013/08/30/turkish-airbase-alert/#.UiE3kG3Nlbc
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
The stupid jackass American media is gassing it's own populace with stupid lies and daily warmongering propaganda.

What stupid jackasses we Americans are .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 30, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Technology, facts and information of this enlightened age have done nothing to temper our aggression while we spin around talking about why we unleash the dogs of war. But it's addictive to spin around arguing reasons. Much harder work dealing with that which fuels the fire - and it ain't a "reason."

In the long term, this is NOT necessarily so. Read Better Angels of Our Nature, by Steven Pinker, for a more encouraging view. He makes the case on a solid basis of "facts and figures" that violence of a wide variety has decreased with the coming of age of civilization.

Day to day, it seems worse than ever. But this is due to cognitive biases among other things.

Reasoning (or reason, or cognitive therapy) can certainly be a means to impulse control (of aggression, etc).

An interesting, informative read along these lines is Evil, by Roy Baumeister.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:03pm PT

The stupid jackass American media is gassing it's own populace with stupid lies and daily warmongering propaganda.

What stupid jackasses we Americans are .....

Yeah, we know it and admit it.

Now, are you going to keep sounding like a God-damned broken record, or are you going to start educating us by giving us links to places we can learn, or even no links, but something objective, empiric, you know, like proof of what you're alluding to.

For one so damned wise, Werner,you make me wonder...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
This one fact may put an end to the stupidity.

http://freebeacon.com/pentagon-cant-afford-syria-operation-must-seek-additional-funds/

The U.S. military, struggling after defense cuts of tens of billions of dollars, will be unable to pay for attacks on Syria from current operating funds and must seek additional money from Congress, according to congressional aides.


The costs of planned Syria strikes using cruise missile ships currently deployed in the Eastern Mediterranean were not disclosed by Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Adm. James Winnefeld, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and several other high-ranking administration officials during a telephone briefing Thursday night for congressional leaders.

However, estimates of the limited-duration strike are expected to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

“The secretary indicated that the administration would consult with Congress on the cost of exercising a potential military option, but specific dollar amounts weren’t discussed,” a senior defense official when asked about the funding shortfalls.

Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, stated in a July 19 letter to the Senate Armed Services Committee, that larger-scale military operations would cost hundreds of millions or billions, depending on the number of forces and the duration of the operations.

For example, training and assisting Syrian opposition forces would cost $500 million annually and “limited” standoff missile and air strikes would cost in the “billions.” Operating a no-fly zone would cost about $1 billion per month, and the cost of using special operations forces to control chemical weapons would be “over” $1 billion monthly.

A congressional aide familiar with the congressional leaders’ briefing said Hagel and Winnefeld made clear the Pentagon would need to “work” with Congress to obtain supplemental funding for Syria attacks.

“Good luck with that,” the aide said, reflecting widespread concern among congressional Republicans with the Obama administration’s defense cuts.

The Pentagon leaders said unlike the 2011 military operations against Libya, there are not enough operating funds to conduct the attack on Syria.

It looks like Barry's sequester is coming back to bite him in the ass.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 30, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
"Couch, i wrote Amodie this morn about "feral horses" lol!"

Nice, I hope it was to the effect: "Auction the right to round up the excess and turn them into something which can be bar-b-qued".....?? Horse meat is tasty and this would be as healthy: pesticide and hormone free, as anything in the world.

Fair-trade free-range baby! Woot!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:10am PT
violence of a wide variety has decreased with the coming of age of civilization.
-

Fruity, this is true in our day to day providing we live in a city, which removes many of he immediate stressors that evoke aggression in the first place. This has more to do with a secure holding environment rather than a cognitive rewiring of our brains by way of inputing true facts and figures, retracable to coliding molicules. This is one step away from Biological Psychiatry’s Disease/Psych drug model of treatment, something that has not panned out remotely as promised.

We all want to reverse engineer everything to some root cause we can control and wrangle and "know" the right answer as an absolute fact. I don't blame you for holding out hope for this belief. Who wouldn't. Unfortunately, this will never work out on the macro level we actually live one because there are no first or "efficient" causes on in true psychiatric cases. And on the national level there is still the same crazy aggrssion going on from North Korea to Palestine to all over Africa etc. And we're not going to think our way out of it.

But there is plenty to do about it, that's where we both believe in the future.

JL

WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Violence of a wide variety has decreased with the coming of age of civilization.

Increased !!!!

http://www.meatvideo.com/

And all those wars and violence upon humanity is the karmic reaction for mistreating material nature ........
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2013 - 01:00am PT
TGT, did you really really just post up a link from the Beacon that dares to fret about the potential costs of a military action which will likely last less than 48 hours?

Do you even know who those guys are? That's Kristol and Goldfarb - two of the guys at the very heart and soul of the Neocons. You know, the guys who insisted we start two unnecessary pre-emptive wars on a credit card to the tune of around six trillion dollars. They are also, ironically, part of the crew who are directly responsible for our being at this very precipice. I mean, these guys have absolutely no shame.

F*#k, the Veterans disability costs alone from those two wars is $134 billion to-date and will be mounting far out into the future.

Unbelievable.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 31, 2013 - 01:59am PT
providing we live in a city, which removes many of the immediate stressors that evoke aggression in the first place
---??

Living in any city is one hell of a major stressor and source of agreesion
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2013 - 05:36am PT
Violence of a wide variety has decreased with the coming of age of civilization.

This is apparently true based on archaeological and ethnographic data looking back 10k years at societal percentages of deaths due to war. Here is a sampling around the globe of societal death rates due to war over that time span:

- 7% Southern Sweden: Remains by an ancient lagoon called Skateholm indicate a 7% adult mortality rate due to warfare 6,100 years ago.

 21% Southern Ukraine: Analysis of Vasiliv’ka III, an 11,000-year-old burial site, shows that 21% of adults died as a result of warfare. Another site, Volos’ke, shows evidence of a 22% adult mortality rate due to warfare.

 30% Northern India: At Sarai Nahar Rai, a site inhabited by hunter-gatherers between 3,140 and 2,860 years ago, war caused 30% of adult deaths.

 46% Northern Sudan: 14,000 to 12,000 years ago, 46% of Nubian adults died in war.

 21% Northeastern Australia: Among the Murngin, a group of maritime foragers, war accounted for about 21% of adult deaths between 1910 and 1930.

 23% British Columbia: Across 30 sites dating to between 5,500 and 340 years ago, 23% of all adults died in war.

 6% Southern California: Across 28 hunter-gatherer sites, warfare led to 6% of adult deaths between 5,500 and 630 years ago.

 17% Venezuela-Colombia border: Before first contact in 1960, warfare caused 17% of adult deaths among the Hiwi, who were foragers.

 30% Eastern Paraguay: Ethnographic evidence implies that war caused 30% of the deaths among hunter-gatherers here prior to Western contact in 1970.

[ From Discover Magazine: Is War Inevitable? By E. O. Wilson | Tuesday, June 12, 2012
  with data from social scientist Samuel Bowles of the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico
]



P.S. Werner, every human on the planet could be a peaceful vegan and by our sheer presence alone be grossly "mistreating material nature".

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 31, 2013 - 09:46am PT
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 31, 2013 - 10:24am PT
warmongering fuks, all of them. What's up with the Peace Prize,Obama, or are you just Bush in blackface? Ridiculous. I want my tax dollars back from 2000 on...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Just some thoughts this morning regarding the pointlessness and waste of most types of possible strikes against Syria.

Direct attacks against chemical munitions.

They are munitions! They can be fairly easily transported. The dilivery rockets are mobile also. Assad isn't stupid he has had days to move them. If you do have a good location and you hit them what is the possibility of releasing them in the area? even if they are not released how many innocent folks get killed for "Americas credibility"

Military infrastructure. Radar and other visible targets easily destroyed. Still likely to kill innocents. A couple waves or so of bombing doesn't deal much of a blow to ASSad really. It takes weeks of bombing to severely degrade a modern military such that it becomes extremely vulnerable. (based on last couple gulf wars). If our strikes don't severely degrade the Syrian army then it seems a pretty empty gesture. If it does then we have become defacto allies of the rebels who may be as bad or worse than ASSad.

ASSad as the target. Perhaps the best target to make our WMD usage point. But likely difficult to locate and eliminate. Least likely to kill innocents but still a possibility. Could take months or years based on the difficulty in getting Saddam and UBL. Requires patience and willingness to look impotent until his time comes.

If we make an international statement that we require him to surrender to an international court or face elimination no matter how long it takes I think it would be taken seriously around the world. We have a good track record and credibility when it comes to this type of action.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Obama's on track to break Yasser Arafat's world record for the most countries bombed by a Nobel Peace Prize winner.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
In effect, Mr. Kerry has picked up the mantle of his predecessor, Hillary Rodham Clinton, who pressed Mr. Obama unsuccessfully to take a more assertive role in the Syrian civil war. With the evidence of a chemical weapons attack now confronting the president and his team, Mr. Kerry’s position has met with more favor in the Situation Room.

White House officials said Mr. Kerry had been “seized with the importance” of making sure that President Bashar al-Assad of Syria was held accountable. Benjamin J. Rhodes, the president’s deputy national security adviser, said: “He doesn’t do anything halfway. He has no hesitancy about throwing himself into the most difficult challenges.”

That Mr. Kerry is the administration’s most prominent hawk is the latest turn in his central involvement in American military affairs over four decades. He came to national attention as a Vietnam War hero who became an antiwar activist, asking Congress in 1971, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?” In 2003, he supported the war against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein — a “brutal, murderous dictator,” as he put it at the time — only to turn against what he called the “catastrophic choice” as the war went south and he ran for president against George W. Bush in 2004.







^^^^^^^^^^^^As you can plainly see,, John Kerry is a two faced Hypocrite and as consistent as a rattle snake.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
AKA, A flip floppin fuk
WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
sharperblue

Mountain climber
San Francisco, California
Aug 31, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Credit: sharperblue
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 31, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
TGT nails it with that cartoon. ^^^
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 31, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
I suppose this will become a naval battle to start off with as we would have to eliminate any threat to our destroyers
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 31, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
FUK!
Here we go again!!!
But at least he says he's going thru
congress.

I hope the so called 80% of the nation that disapproves of this action.
gets a hold of their congressman and lets them know how they feel.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 31, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Props to Obama for being willing to back off....and listen to We the People.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 31, 2013 - 02:36pm PT

"Props to Obama for being willing to back off....and listen to WE THE
PEOPLE
."









But Cragman, Will the Congress listen to the 80% of,
we the people, who disapprove of this action and vote for no
military action?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Aug 31, 2013 - 02:41pm PT


"Props to Obama for being willing to back off....and listen to We the People."...

+1

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
um

I would guess that over 90% of American adults could not find Syria on a map

nor even know that a guy named Assad is in charge there

yeah, American adult opinion is really important to US policy, and SO well informed

70% of Americans believe in Angels

60% believe the earth was created in its present state less than 10K years ago

but hey, let's base foreign policy on opinions.....
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:07pm PT

"um

I would guess that over 90% of American adults could not find Syria on a map"
...


I'd also bet that, that the SAME 90% of Amare-kans COULD find it on their pancakes...

...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
So let me get this straight. You post an article saying that we don't have the money to respond to a conflict that was written by a couple of guys who are the reason we don't have the money. Then, when that is pointed out, your response is to post a cartoon of Obama being painted in the corner by a conflict created by those same folks. Brilliant!

As I said, the nutjobbery in here is getting thick. And that goes double for anyone who thinks this is the same sort of deal as W's crew jonesing to go to war in Iraq, especially given Obama's 'red line' comment was an ill-advised attempt to stall doing anything that bit them on the ass.

It's also simply amazing at how many of you rah-rah supporters of W's administration who were all for the neocon wars and 'nation-building' are all of sudden amnesic about who they voted for, what they supported, and can't seem to recognize that the 'Arab Spring', Benghazi, and this conflict are all a direct legacy of those misguided fantasies.

It wouldn't matter if it were McCain in office right now - all this is a direct result of W's clusterf*#ks and you guys are all suddenly like rats headed for the exits now that the consequences of those ill-advised wars have come home to roost.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
all this is a direct result of W's clusterf*#ks

You were making some sense until that came out. Are you saying the Iraq
War de-stabilized Assad or encouraged the rebels to take up the destruction
of their country?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
You were making some sense until that came out. Are you saying the Iraq War de-stabilized Assad or encouraged the rebels to take up the destruction of their country?

Dude, why do you think any of this has been sweeping across North Africa and pressuring Gulf State regimes? Boredom? A lack of good video games? High movie and popcorn prices? MTV award shows that offend arab sensibilities? Crikey...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Uh, I would say all this was quite inevitable without any 'encouragement'
on anybody else's part. I think Marx addressed this thoroughly a while back.

And if you won't talk down to me I'll be civil to you.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 31, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
H,, your delusional.

Obama THOUGHT he had a slam dunk with the press campaign showing the suffering women and children. He attempted to garner support through the UN and is failing there too. Im fairly certain the congress has been receiving e mails and letters to thwart any strike plans regarding Syria. After obummers epic fail in places like Egypt with the same characters now involved in Syria, it shouldnt be a surprise that ANY half smart American would be questioning the rhetoric by two faced hypocrites like john kerry.

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Aug 31, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
"Obama THOUGHT he had a slam dunk with the press campaign showing the suffering women and children. He attempted to garner support"...


Gee...

I can't imagine anyone doing such a thing...

VERY Un-American!!!...




;-)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 31, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Same ol tune - Weve heard it from many a politickshun before.


" I wont send brave american boys thousands of miles from home to do what the S Vietnamese boys should be doin fer themselves."

" We know with certainty Saddam has WMDS"

"So proud to see Egypt under a new democratic regime"

" Our mission in Afghanistan is near completion"


"Theres clearly a red line in the sand as far as Assad and chemical weaponry in Syria is concerned"



edit: Ol Kerry must have dementia. Agent Orange -used in Cambodia, N and S Vietnam - 400K dead from it, another 500,000 maimed and or birth defects. And HE talks about moral atrocities by someone in Syria that killed a TOTAL from all "suspected " gas attacks at 1400.. Does he think no one out there has any memory also?



Not to mention both China and Russia are dead against any attacks against Assad. The ol cold war alive and well today. Russians man the air defense installations in Syria right now. They are quite capable of taking out any Destroyers near them. So get ready for debacle # 95 in the ME shythole. There will be FAR more dead than 1400 innocent people, on that you may rely. And our hypocrisy shall be viewed on a grand scale, while our reputation goes further into the world toilet. Meanwhile at home,, no one gives a rip about "we the people". There gonna take away extended unemployment benefits to buy tomahawks and flame throwers and call it sequestration.. FUGH them all.. Each and every two faced prick we call our govt reps. We were FAR BETTER off as an isolated country and that is becoming blatantly clear.
Gone are the days of all out actual wars, there are nukes pointed in every direction around the globe now. And only a FOOL would think they will never be used again. Wasnt obama just talking about reduction of nukes a while back? Now hes threatening Assad, Russia and China interests?

FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 31, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
Ron you are the last guy to call someone else delusional.
g-tech

Trad climber
Oakland!
Aug 31, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
The US has used chemical weapons in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq- killing at least hundreds of thousands.

The US encouraged, funded, and sanction Saddam Hussein in using chemical weapons against Iran.

The US will bomb Syria for using chemical weapons.

Either this is an enforcement of intellectual copyright- or the bombing of Syria has nothing to do with the use of chemical weapons.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 31, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Precisely Gtech.. I mentioned our previous gassings pages ago. Even the sanctioned ones. But by far AO was the biggie.

ODD that ive NOT heard ONE peep about all of that in the media coverage of late. The "zipped lip " regulation in affect?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 31, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Dude, why do you think any of this has been sweeping across North Africa and pressuring Gulf State regimes? Boredom? A lack of good video games?

A little speech prince Barry made in Cairo a few years ago might have something to do with it.
Gimp

Trad climber
Grand Junction
Aug 31, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Well aware that the politicos will do what they want with the young poor males of their constituency. And no matter how the battle is fought there will have to be a great deal of "collateral damage" before the head is cut off the snake.

However one does have to wonder why in this age of "smart missiles" war should consist of anything more than targeting your opposition head of state, his family, relatives and other government officials.

Politicians start wars they should be the target of them!


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
It's unsurprising that when you google 'GOP Syria December' what turns up is the GOP and rightwing media mewling about "Obama's inaction". Fast forward to April and then it's McCain, Lindsey, and Chamblis' heads all but spinning over Obama's "stalling tactics" and "lack of strategy" in the face of the possibility of Assad's movement and possible use of chemical weapons (as if there is a some mythical 'strategy' to be had now that the neocons have opened Pandora's box). Clearly a sign the whiplash injuries from the G-force loading involved with the right's rapid swerve from nation-building to isolationism must still not have healed.

Again, breathtaking delusion, cluelessness, and nutjobbery to say nothing of the hypocrisy of all you folks who so supported the neocon wars.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 31, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
However one does have to wonder why in this age of "smart missiles" war should consist of anything more than targeting your opposition head of state, his family, relatives and other government officials.

Politicians start wars they should be the target of them!

Nicely said.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 31, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Hey Ron,

Didn't you listen to those swift boat ads when Kerry was running against W?

They make it sound like he wasn't even there, despite the shrapnel that he still has in his ass.

As for Syria, I am getting tired of the world expecting us to be their policeman.

johntp

Trad climber
socal
Aug 31, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
As for Syria, I am getting tired of the world expecting us to be their policeman.

Agreed.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Short on support at home and allies abroad, President Barack Obama unexpectedly stepped back from a missile attack against Syria on Saturday and instead asked Congress to support a strike punishing Bashar Assad's regime for the alleged use of chemical weapons.

With Navy ships on standby in the Mediterranean Sea ready to launch their cruise missiles, Obama said he had decided the United States should take military action and that he believes that as commander in chief, he has "the authority to carry out this military action without specific congressional authorization."

At the same time, he said, "I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course and our actions will be even more effective." His remarks were televised live in the United States as well as on Syrian state television with translation.

That POS Shrub never would have done this.
jstan

climber
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
I have not seen the following suggested.

1. Tell NATO allies and the Russians we do not see what the Syrian people will gain from military action. The UK, for one, has already reached that opinion.
2. Assad is a client of the Russian state so Russia bears an important burden. Hold discussions with Putin as to what cooperation might be possible between us.
3. Announce that the US's immediate response will be to provide all possible medical assistance to combatants on any of the three sides that now exist in this war. There are two carriers in the area and each has to have extensive medical facilities.
4. Move one or more civilian hospital ships into the region.
5.Employ military personnel, on the ground as needed, to provide secure reception points from which casualties can be securely transferred to appropriate medical facilities. The reception points will quickly become foci for attacks so it may be a back up plan will need to employ movement of those reception points. After treatment, persons will be returned to Syria.

In the event reception is not even possible or attacks penetrate inside the medical facilities, everyone will be left to consider whether their actions truly served their interest. And it will be difficult to argue the US was merely serving its own interests.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 31, 2013 - 11:53pm PT

And it will be difficult to argue the US was merely serving its own interests.

To naïve, Jstan jus what do YOU think the US governments interests are?
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 1, 2013 - 12:08am PT
To naïve, Jstan jus what do YOU think the US governments interests are?

Maybe fueling the war machine and weapons manufacturers?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 1, 2013 - 09:58am PT
The problem with the American way of war is that, technologically, it can’t lose, but, in every other sense, it can’t win. No one in his right mind wants to get into a tank battle or a naval bombardment with the guys responsible for over 40 percent of the planet’s military expenditures. Which is why these days there aren’t a lot of tank battles. The consummate interventionist Robert Kagan wrote in his recent book that the American military “remains unmatched.” It’s unmatched in the sense that the only guy in town with a tennis racket isn’t going to be playing a lot of tennis matches. But the object of war, in Liddell Hart’s famous distillation, is not to destroy the enemy’s tanks (or Russian helicopters) but his will. And on that front America loses, always. The “unmatched” superpower cannot impose its will on Kabul kleptocrats, Pashtun goatherds, Egyptian generals, or Benghazi militia. There is no reason to believe Syria would be an exception to this rule. America’s inability to win ought to be a burning national question, but it’s not even being asked.

http://nationalreview.com/article/357287/accidental-war-mark-steyn
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Now you're quoting Kagan? Man, you really loves you some neocons.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Sep 1, 2013 - 10:46am PT
I'm not an anti-Obama conservative but I think he is making a big mistake here. I'm against the USA being the world police regardless of who is in power.

If we do any military intervention in Syria we should so do only with a real international coalition. A coalition with responsibility and costs shared equally.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Sep 1, 2013 - 10:55am PT
The way you are arguing, Healyje, are you for bombing Syria?
The only conflict I was, for, over the last couple of decades, was for
getting rid of the bastards that came after us on 9 11.

I really think we should be taking care of our major problems here at home
before taking care of someone elses problems abroad.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 1, 2013 - 11:19am PT
reagan would have!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Werner,

I hear ya. Five years a vegan now.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 1, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
See here, how we're getting pulled into this middle east quagmire. And if not this time then the next.

It's a spectacle and more... that, as a united states community, we cannot decide to stay out of this altogether to let the Middle East (dominated by Arabs and Persians and oh yes fundamentalist Islam) fight their 30-year war or 100 year war. But I guess today's social media and sense of globalization requires that we get involved.

It took the West 200 or more years (eight or more generations of recyclic births and deaths) to work out its differences in culture, religions, sectarian difference. Yet it seems so many expect it to happen in a tenth the time in the Middle East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_Year_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Years_War

Here in America modernity, despite its successes, cannot get millions to move beyond bronze age superstitions, what makes people think the human condition is any different (e.g., in terms of rates of change, evolution, consciousness-raising) over there.

.....

But "pulled in"? Hey, don't get me wrong. No doubt many in our country would like to see some kind of action if not war go down over there. Of course, with the United States a player, even a major player, too. If for no other reason (despite their denial) than to stir the pot and to bring some excitement to their otherwise boring lives.

It's in our nature.
WBraun

climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
BBC News uses 'Iraq photo to illustrate Syrian massacre

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9293620/BBC-News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html

American Hypocrisy on Chemical Weapons. BOMB Syria but APPLAUD and Protect Israel

Obviously, the U.S. media accepted Kerry’s explanation at face value without any Intelligence on their part or a willingness to investigate.

Perhaps that’s why Obama threw the ball into Congress’ court so that their refusal may save his non existent “credibility”

Kerry presented a deliberately false and high number of casualties of the chemical attack that has not been corroborated by any NGO or Aid agency on the ground. In fact Doctors Without Borders who are in Syria and visited the hospitals say there were 355 total deaths, a much lower number than Kerry’s fabrication. He did not reveal the source for his numbers but one can safely assume that it came from the Rebels and/or the CIA to horrify the attack even further.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/01/american-hypocrisy-on-chemical-weapons-bomb-syria-but-applaud-and-protect-israel/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 1, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Protecting the innocent is a good idea but invading another country is insanity...
WBraun

climber
Sep 1, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
healyje is 1000% completely wrong about Israels involvement.

They are the major player and instigator in this mess and always have been.

Israel is the big fuking two headed lying snake there.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/01/bashar-al-assad-interview-msm-censored/
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Sep 1, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Interesting that at the time of the Normandy invasion, the Nazis had a whole host of V1 and V2 rockets loaded up with sarin gas cannisters ready to launch at London and kill 1 or 2 million civilians in the process. However, A. Hitler vetoed the project. Of course, Uncle Adolf was no whining liberal humanist but was afraid that the Allies also had sarin and tabin gas ready to use on the Germans. First example of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction)? Only difficulty was that only the Germans had sarin. The Allies and Soviets did not.

A lot of very interesting "what ifs" in this scenario. Maybe Peter Tsouras should write a new alternate history book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_G._Tsouras

Not a good idea "playing chicken" with nerve gas.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 1, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Never thought I'd be pulling for Republican house obstructionism.. but BONER is in no hurry to get anything done.. as usual.. no vote till 9th of Sept.. hope it goes they way of the british in this case.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 1, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Kerry fabricated the numbers from TOTAL suspected chemical attacks on the last two years or so the story goes. The british paper puts in a pic of Iraq dead from 2003 to represent the numbers.

Doesnt seem anyone has the actual story.

Then there are good Americans writing their reps giving a big thumbs down to the whole scenario. With E mail its quite easy and quick. Never before have we had such an instant way to affect decisions IF WE USE IT!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 1, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
climbski2 - I think it will. In fact I think it may be a reasonably non-partisan vote against a strike.

What this shows though is that Obama is certainly feeling motivated to do something (and as argued above thread he just happens to be the sitting POTUS with the bad luck of being in this position) he's not like that dumb f*#ker Dubya Em Dee who started a major war based on known lies. Mr. Obama is a hell of a lot smarter than that and he's showing why he got my vote.

He could still f*#k it up.

But in the mean time now that there are forces in the area one would think that Assad won't be so stupid as to launch another strike. All eyes (satellites) are pointed at them. If they strike again all bets are off....



Doesnt seem anyone has the actual story.

right... yet you won't even admit that what you know about benghazi is nothing near what actually happened yet you won't let go of that. dumbfuk
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 1, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
norton for a real treat lets go visit the Reagan library!
reagan is soo rad!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Werner, between the headspinning of you and the other conspiracy Gomerists, who don't apparently have the slightest grip on reality in one direction, and the rightwing drama-fluff queens like Ron who don't even know who's involved with the conflict in the other it kind of makes it almost pointless to attempt an intelligent conversation on the subject. I mean, the lack of grasp on history, context, or even basic understanding of any of the political, policy, diplomatic, or military realities is somewhat breathtaking. It's like political middle school in here.

The equivalent in the Valley would be me claiming YOSAR is a government cover org for false flag rescues created by black op specialists who sabotage climbers' gear in C4 at night using stealth suits so folks like you (using alien-provided spider silk packs) can do rescues to make the government look good. Nutjobbery.

It is in NO ONE's, repeat NO ONE's, interest that Assad be deposed in this manner EXCEPT the Syrian Sunni majority who have been subjugated by the minority Alawis and Assad clan for four decades and caught the 'Arab Spring' fever. This is a friggin' nightmare scenario for EVERYONE, especially the Israelis, who are now attempting to manage the current shitstorm to stay current with events on the ground and to try use what nearly non-existent influence and resources they have to some - any - advantage. They did not gas anyone or have the slightest involvement in it. Period.

And to those who either minimize the gas casualties or conflate Agent Orange and White Phosphorus use with/as 'chemical weapons' - both are unwise and even dangerous attempts to justify a sudden and convenient chicken-little, "kill'em all", 'throw up our hands' isolationism now that we have screwed the pooch and created this nightmare. Jeebus H. Christ - it's too late to just walk away, there is no escaping the consequences of our own actions in that way. Where was all that isolationism when we were "getting rid of the bastards that came after us on 9 11". Should have thought about that then, before letting TGT's neocon buddies leap on that event to unleash their white, male fantasy jihad on the world.

And the ultimate lesson in all this is there are no short cuts or end-runs around confronting and dealing with the Isaeli/Palestinian problem (which is what the neocons were attempting to do in Afghanistan and Iraq). The Israelis have been playing the US for fools and like a fiddle for decades now and do so for one reason and one reason alone - they do not want to settle or make peace with the Palestinians. No, instead they have a strategy in place of stringing us along like idiots while they assimilate Palestinian lands an acre at a time. So long as we allow that to happen the Mideast will be a nightmare for us of our own making as we shoot ourselves in the foot again and again while clumsily lurching about on one fools errand after another.

Solve the real problem, stop creating new ones, and deal with the ones we've already created.

P.S. I am from Chicago and there is a connection with Syria, but not Bharata's incredibly weak attempt at one.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 1, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Werner, Sunnis have believed that Shias were apostates who should be put to death hundreds of years before Israel was a country. If the jews are trying to save their lives by getting that party going, good for them. There is one place in the mideast where Arabs can vote, work, and be safe with their own views on religion: Israel.


Ask Cat Stevens how it went for him when he merely criticized the Saudi Government. (cough* FATWA FOR F*#KING SINGING* cough*)

We can safety leave this alleged attack in the hands of the "Zigzagor in Chief" for now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
There is one place in the mideast where Arabs can vote, work, and be safe with their own views: Israel.

Don't forget Disney and Never-Neverland, which would be the other great places for Arabs.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 1, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
Headjob has a bit of a reading comprehension issue.


Never have proposed any intervention here, and neither have the sources I've cited.

Quite the opposite.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 1, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
FYI, when I was studying clinical psych years ago there was a saying or motto or rule of thumb that many psychologists held as gospel: Whoever starts ranting about conspiracies has a personality disorder. People diagnosed with a personality disorder cannot get their insurance to pay for treatment because it takes years and is largely ineffective.

People crying "conspiracy" never learned the basic fact about humanity summed up in the following from (attributed) Thomas Edison: "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead."

JL
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 1, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Ben Franklin, not Tom Edison,

Ben was the consummate collector of unattributed sayings so I'd bet that the phrase was probably first rendered in Greek, Persian, Egyptian or some paleolithic language.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 1, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
I truly feel for the kids involved in all this mess. Really sad to see them living/dying in such a fukfest of an environment. Spent many months deployed and operating in that region.






BUT!

I say stay outta there. We did our job in minimizing the asswipes that attacked us 12 years ago. We need to leave the area asap and let them local Sunni's and Shiites sort it out amongst themselves. They have been at this shetfest fighting amongst one another for centuries. Since Cane and Abel days.

There is absolutely NOTHING we spoiled I-Phone addicted Western capitalistic stupid Amerikans can do to remedy that situ. Our induced presence, however that may be, in Syria, will only add fuel to the hornets nest that has been at one another throats since god knows when. The hate they have for one another is far greater and deeper than that which they have for us infidels.

I say let Allah sort em out.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2013 - 02:15am PT
Has anyone seen the award winning film: "Five Broken Cameras"?

Shot In Israel spanning from 06-12. A very eye opening awareness lesson of some personal account of Palestinians dealing with the walls the Israelis built. It's mind blowing how compliant they are of each other even in the face of war. From the outside it sure looks like a brotherly squabble.

Movies like this are why cameras were invented!

Edit: you can watch it at, PBS/SoCal. com
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Sep 2, 2013 - 02:28am PT


"I truly feel for the kids involved in all this mess. Really sad to see them living/dying in such a fukfest of an environment."...



Ditto!!!...

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 2, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 2, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Ah, what a wonderful "Arab Spring"

From next door, an Ap for your phone.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7fa6c9e8-13de-11e3-9289-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2dn0phjbh

“In other places in the world, the only thing that might obstruct your path is traffic,” said Mohammad Taha, an entrepreneur behind one of the products. “In Lebanon there are many things that can happen.”
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 2, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
By Russell Findlay, Billy Briggs
Revealed: Britain sold nerve gas chemicals to Syria 10 months after 'civil unrest' began

1 Sep 2013 07:21
FURIOUS politicians have demanded Prime Minister David Cameron explain why chemical export licences were granted to firms last January – 10 months after the Syrian uprising began.


Men search for survivors amid debris of collapsed buildingsMen search for survivors amid debris of collapsed buildings
REUTERS/Nour Fourat
BRITAIN allowed firms to sell chemicals to Syria capable of being used to make nerve gas, the Sunday Mail can reveal today.

Export licences for potassium fluoride and sodium fluoride were granted months after the bloody civil war in the Middle East began.

The chemical is capable of being used to make weapons such as sarin, thought to be the nerve gas used in the attack on a rebel-held Damascus suburb which killed nearly 1500 people, including 426 children, 10 days ago.

President Bashar Assad’s forces have been blamed for the attack, leading to calls for an armed response from the West.

British MPs voted against joining America in a strike. But last night, President Barack Obama said he will seek the approval of Congress to take military action.

The chemical export licences were granted by Business Secretary Vince Cable’s Department for Business, Innovation and Skills last January – 10 months after the Syrian uprising began.

They were only revoked six months later, when the European Union imposed tough sanctions on Assad’s regime.

Yesterday, politicians and anti-arms trade campaigners urged Prime Minister David Cameron to explain why the licences were granted.

Dunfermline and West Fife Labour MP Thomas Docherty, who sits on the House of Commons’ Committees on Arms Export Controls, plans to lodge Parliamentary questions tomorrow and write to Cable.

He said: “At best it has been negligent and at worst reckless to export material that could have been used to create chemical weapons.

“MPs will be horrified and furious that the UK Government has been allowing the sale of these ingredients to Syria.

“What the hell were they doing granting a licence in the first place?

“I would like to know what investigations have been carried out to establish if any of this
material exported to Syria was subsequently used in the attacks on its own people.”

The SNP’s leader at Westminster, Angus Robertson MP, said: “I will be raising this in Parliament as soon as possible to find out what examination the UK Government made of where these chemicals were going and what they were to be used for.

“Approving the sale of chemicals which can be converted into lethal weapons during a civil war is a very serious issue.

“We need to know who these chemicals were sold to, why they were sold, and whether the UK Government were aware that the chemicals could potentially be used for chemical weapons.

“The ongoing humanitarian crisis in Syria makes a full explanation around these shady deals even more important.













^^^^^^^^maybe we should be bombing Brits..
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 3, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
And to those who either minimize the gas casualties or conflate Agent Orange and White Phosphorus use with/as 'chemical weapons' - both are unwise and even dangerous attempts to justify a sudden and convenient chicken-little, "kill'em all", 'throw up our hands' isolationism now that we have screwed the pooch and created this nightmare. Jeebus H. Christ - it's too late to just walk away, there is no escaping the consequences of our own actions in that way. Where was all that isolationism when we were "getting rid of the bastards that came after us on 9 11". Should have thought about that then, before letting TGT's neocon buddies leap on that event to unleash their white, male fantasy jihad on the world.


Just because we've horned into other people's business for centuries does not man that it is ever too late to let others settle their own affairs, no mater how volatile, nor does it mean we are "screwing the pooch" if we stay out of it. This is not an objective appraisal. China, Germany, Russia, GB, and all other nations would not consider themselves stupid of cowardly for not bombing Syria. How about giving them the dignity to work out their own problems?

JL
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
Agreed JL!


However, Britain appears to have sold the chemicals to Syria. AND the whitehouse KNEW of impending chemical attacks at least three days before the attack.



Brits sell them nerve gas, while the USA assembles to attack.? No preemptive strikes to thwart the chemical attack. So one can conclude that event was desired to rally support. There is even a slight desperation here as they have used "FRENCH INTEL" that says assad gassed his own people.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Sometimes fundamentalist Christians seem to know more about the dangers of fundamentalist Islam than the liberal left.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 3, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
very good information video on Syria, produced by MoveOn.Org


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oGbKr6IxZs#t=165

[youtube=7oGbKr6IxZs#t=165]
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 3, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
What are the reasons all other nations have refused to intervene in Syria, and why does Obama and others feel these reasons don't apply to us? And "in the interest of national security" is not an answer.

JL
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Why do they ALL forget we are the MASTERS of chemical weaponry? If its such a morally corrupt action that should require world response- no one came after us from Nam, Cambodia, Loas, Iran, so and and so forth.

And arent the Brits culpable in all of this- if they sold them the makings and all. Not to bloody smart there eh?







edit: John Dementia Kerry today:


"I think that makes it even more compelling that the Congress of the United States be counted with the president in this effort so that Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, all of our friends and allies in the region, will know that the United States is acting in concert in a way that really sends a powerful message about our credibility, about our intentions to uphold international norms," he went on. "And that will have an impact on other decisions down the road."



International "norms"??? And those are?

I do agree on credibility issues but nowhere close in the area that JD Kerry speaks of lol!



This just may be a dodge to get heat off washington for countless dastardly scandals. ANYONE heard any other news about those of late? And YEAH,, i think our politicians would stoop to just that.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
What are the reasons all other nations have refused to intervene in Syria, and why does Obama and others feel these reasons don't apply to us? And "in the interest of national security" is not an answer.

JL

That's an easy one. This is a fight to maintain the USD as the reserve currency of the world. Without Saudi support, the US petro-dollar would fail within weeks. The Saudi's want Assad killed for many reasons you can easily research. Our current puppet regime will bomb their own citizens, spy on their own citizens and now start WWIII to kick this particular can another few years down the road. We are currently effectively printing 85 billion or more a month to keep up the façade of our failed currency. The rest of the world is quickly catching on. Eventually mathematics overwhelms faith.

Historically when you're the biggest a-hole in the neighborhood that has lead to war.

Look at the chess pieces being arranged on the board. Only an insane person, or a very, very desperate person would pull the trigger here. They're not insane.

It's always money. Always.

WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
Hedge = not very intelligent.

Hedge must take learning vacation to become intelligent .....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
fear, your grasp of economics is less than overwhelming. The more conspiratorially-
minded say that Quantitative Easing is just to prop up Wall St equity prices.
It most certainly does nothing to strengthen the dollar, no matter what the
Saudis do, and their influence isn't what it once was. The cynics say it is just
to buy democratic votes. The truth is, of course, far more mundane and,
in this iteration, largely unrealized. But your theory is entertaining.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Dementia Kerrys "compelling evidence" is: Assad warned his troops there might be chemical attacks and to have their gasmasks handy ...> Hasn't every damm officer in the theater for the USA given the same damm orders?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
The partisan banter would suit me fine in a different thread, but I still believe that partisanship stops at the border. The injection of partisanship in this debate contributes nothing toward building a consensus at a time when we desperately need one.

The Syrian situation yields tragic consequences for Syria, the Middle East, and the US, no matter what the US does, including doing nothing. I, for one (and in contrast to the editorial page of the Wall Street journal) think Obama did the right thing in seeking congressional support. We need public deliberation and as much consensus as possible no matter what we do. This matters much more than what makes a president look good or bad. It's too bad that some don't know how to bring about a useful discussion.

In truth, the US is relatively powerless to bring about any good there right now. The more the caring public can learn about the situation the better off we'll be. We need a debate focused on a common goal of what's best for our interests, but count me out of a partisan, name-calling hate-fest.

John
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Obama's mistake was failing to accurately gauge the revulsion that the vast majority still feels for anything that might even faintly resemble an action taken by The Worst President In US History, George W Bush. Not even the wingnut voters who were cheerleaders during the War On Iraq want anything to do with being associated with that pathetic, disastrous legacy anymore.

Invading and occupying Iraq for 6 years was a great idea, of course, but now those same Iraq wingnut cheerleaders recoil in horror at the idea of use of tactical strikes to prevent WMD's being used by a dictator who's already used them in the past few weeks.

They voted for Bush in 2004, but they think Syria is a bad idea? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


IDIOTS.

worth repeating
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
The partisan banter would suit me fine in a different thread, but I still believe that partisanship stops at the border. The injection of partisanship in this debate contributes nothing toward building a consensus at a time when we desperately need one.

The Syrian situation yields tragic consequences for Syria, the Middle East, and the US, no matter what the US does, including doing nothing. I, for one (and in contrast to the editorial page of the Wall Street journal) think Obama did the right thing in seeking congressional support. We need public deliberation and as much consensus as possible no matter what we do. This matters much more than what makes a president look good or bad. It's too bad that some don't know how to bring about a useful discussion.

In truth, the US is relatively powerless to bring about any good there right now. The more the caring public can learn about the situation the better off we'll be. We need a debate focused on a common goal of what's best for our interests, but count me out of a partisan, name-calling hate-fest.

John

Also worth repeating.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
A) MANY rumors floating around that the Rebels did indeed pull this stunt.

B) What did Assad have to gain from this, knowing the reaction? IF he did it by proxy for Iran to test the waters then thats one thing, but thats also HIGHLY DOUBTFUL.

C) What does the Rebel side have to gain by gassing their own? SUPPORT from all directions would be the answer.

D) Britain now seems a culprit in this also, and what does that have to do with the US decision?


E) For the issue of US credibility, does it help that we used chemical warfare in Nam, Loas, Cambodia and Vietnam, and the condoned the use of chemical weapons in the Iraq/Iran war? Can we now say it to be morally un acceptable?

F) On credibility again, is the US going to be hated any more if we do nothing? And should we be supporting the brotherhood any way- anywhere?
So far that has been one giant leap of failures. Think Egypt.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
The President is in a tough situation. I totally agree, John - no matter what he does or does not do the outcome won't be good.

He not only did the right thing in waiting for congress he also separated himself from what Bush would have done. That's smart.

So far here's what has happened in my view:

1) Obama made it clear that he will to a strategic strike
2) he mobilized resources (more ships in the area)
3) took a step back and said "wait, let's get a consensus".
and
4) pointed all eyes on Libya.

So, Libya knows they are on notice. If they strike again given the surveillance there will be proof of where it comes from and I'd bet the Obama takes out those locations within hours w/o any approval.

Obama is in a no win situation but by going to congress (who I believe will not authorize) he puts himself (much more likely) in a no lose situation.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
A) MANY rumors floating around that the Rebels did indeed pull this stunt.

rumors thus far w/o any evidence.

As Kerry pointed out last week they have the evidence. And no, it doesn't need to be presented to the public. That's called "in the interest of national security". But if you think he got Boehner's vote w/o seeing the evidence you're even more of an idiot than most of us suspect.

Figures you'd believe the rumors. It's why you are still beating the benghazi drum.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
pfffffffffffffffff.. Guess you guys have forgotten the "redline in the sand speech" given about 6 chemical attacks ago. These have been going on for well over a YEAR.. obama has already said HE PLANS TO STRIKE, so this is a formality to make him look like the leader de- unification. I toldd a buddy the night of that speech,, that chemical attacks were now a gimme.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
My question still stands: What were the reasons ALL other countries have declined action in Syria, and why are we different? Is it only money?

All conspiracy theories are bollocks. Why strike? Really?

JL
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
SIX,,,(6) minimum chemical attacks ago obamma said dont do that again..


or actually he said : dont do that again,, ok now i really mean it, im warning you,,dont do it a 5th time, and ok im gonna strike you.


Yet the sheeples THINK hes trying to do the good thing? Over a year worth of attacks since the redline speech but hey,, congress is off on vacations so we will wait till the 9th? Lets play pick the day?


Then lets talk about the Iraq/Iran war, when we were buddies with saddam, then later we werent. And how we condoned the gassing of Iranians. How FAMILIAR does this all ring in your ears?


credibility indeed.
And it certainly isnt partisan, but exactly like the last idiocy. And the idiocy before that, and the idiocy before that.


abrams

Sport climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
<Obama can’t begin to explain why America should help jihadists to take control of Syria.

<And soon they are going to drag Obama kicking and screaming onto AirForce1 for the G20 summit where his ex-buddy
Putin will be waiting.

meanwhile

<Putin's swinging those coconuts when he suggests Obama give
back the million dollar Nobel Peace Prize money because it does not jive with
Barack's metamorphosis into a cruise-missile-happy muslim killer.

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
america has been funding/arming/aiding terrorist/extremist/rebel organizations abroad for generations now. this should surprise no one.

operation cyclone comes to mind.

sometimes you have to get in bed with the enemy, welcome to reality.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
yep we did and got screwed in the wazoo DRY. Each, and, every time. Time to CUT THE ROPE!!!!!!!!!!!
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
The USA cannot correct all the wrongs in the world. When we try, sometimes we succeed, sometimes we step on our own foot. As sad as this event is, it is not our fight.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 3, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
"The USA cannot correct all the wrongs in the world."

So does that mean it can't try to correct any?

Does this mean we need to try to correct them all? Choose your battles; this has nothing to do with the USA. It is an internal civil war.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
At least Tom Udall, D-NM, stated he would vote against
any action in Syria. I hope 55 other senators will be as
courageous.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
JHEG:

If this was a REPUG in office and they were preparing to go into Syria, you'd be screaming not no but fk no!

You know nothing about the culture. Nothing.

All you are doing is backing your side of the aisle.


STAY OUTTA OF SYRIA.

This is a far worse thing that we could ever do. Worse than Storm or Iraq Invasion combined. It is no where as simple as just throwing a couple of Tomahawk's in and then backing off. Not one bit.

We have done our deed in reducing the asstardfksticks that attacked us 12 years ago. We need to get the fk outta there asap and let the Muslims continue doing what they have been doing to one another for centuries.

Our infidel ways are not there's. We can not solve this particular issue that has existed in that region for over 2000 years if not longer. Nor will we ever. It is the way of Muḥammad. You have no clue as to what that even means. None.

This is all about the Shiites and the Sunnis.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Largo,

To answer your question, many familiar with the Syrian situation don't think there's a "good side" to this conflict. The Assad regime has blood on its hands dealing with the rebels. The rebels, too, have been brutal to innocents.

Most westerners don't know that Syria has a very substantial Christian population. Most are Syrian. The Syrian rite of the Orthodox Church is one of the oldest in history. In addition, there is a substantial ethnic minority of Assyrians and Armenians -- both Christian as well. The Christians have been left alone under the Assad regimes, so they have been less than enthusiastic about regime change. This makes them unpopular -- and easy targets for reprisal -- by the rebels. Reprisals have already taken place.

The rebels themselves are fractionated. There is no united front, and no guarantee that the end of the Assad regime won't bring one friendly to (or even controlled by) Al Qaeda or Iran. The probability of a fundamentalist Islamic government is sufficiently likely that those who fear such a government (essentially everyone but fundamentalist Islamics) have expressed urgent concerns about that possibility.

Given these facts, it's rather difficult to convince a populace to sacrifice blood or treasure to aid any side in this battle, because no matter what the West does, it will end up aiding "the bad guys" on any side of this disaster. If we don't intervene, we're aiding a brutal government willing to slaughter its own citizens (the nerve gas is only a tiny part of the slaughter). If we aid the rebels, we aid in the brutalization of one of the most ancient Christian communities in the world, and bring about the likelihood of a very unfriendly government.

In this situation, refraining from action is not only expedient, but it might actually be the most realistic course, because it recognizes our impotence in the area.

John
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:32pm PT

"Choose your battles; this has nothing to do with the USA. It is an internal civil war."


400 children gassed to death is no more the result of a civil war than Jewish death camps were.
Yeah, I get your point. I agree this event is horrible.

But why is the USA responsible to rectify this wrong while the rest of the world stands down? We have our own problems and can't afford to fund this war alone with our money and our troops. If Europe doesn't want to get involved why should we? We don't have a dog in this fight unless we jump into it.

I guess I have become an isolationist.

edit: so we throw a few billion bombs on Syria; do you really think that will change anything in the long term?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
If we go in there, we better be prepared to amass 2 million plus of our bravest, our entire arsenal of ground equipment and throw everything we got at em. And literally be prepared to do some mass killing. Big time.

Cus we will only shake the hornets nest that has yet to come to bear. Millions of hornets.

Possibly WWIII. Russia aint gonna stand by and watch this one. Nor will China.

This aint our fight.


It is their civil war. Let them sort it out...
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 3, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
Hedge- Not gonna turn this into an interweb slap fest. I've stated my opinion.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 3, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
No one has yet made clear the reasons stated by GB, Russia, France, Germany, Japan, and China for not mounting an attack. What do thee nations tell their populace to counter demands that they get to some killing and quick? Otherwise they're weak, and impotent.

JL
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
^^^^^^^ Hedge = Total idiot as usual ^^^^^^^
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 3, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
The most cogent analysis I heard today came from, naturally, MSNBC. Assad gassed those people to appease his own Muslim extremist supporters. That's who we'd be aligned with by failing to act.

What "Muslim extremist supporters?" The people I know there think the Muslim extremists support, if not dominate, the rebels.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 3, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
"For God's sake, man - you're John Long. Act like it. ha ha"


^^^^^^^spoken by jhedge


+1 Werner..



edot: and,, LET THE FRENCH handle it LMAO!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:02am PT
I'm John Long but when I used to take physical risks big time I knew what I had to gain. I can understand wanting to punish Assad, but why right this second. That seems like the inability to postpone the gratification for immediate reprisal, and if Assad is then destabalized, we are left being responsible for the power vac.

So what is it, specifically, that we have to gain by attacking and who, exactly are we attacking? If we're going after Assad, then go get him. Shooting generic targets seems like vain saber rattling.

I say hold off for the time being.

And where are all the Arab forces stepping in. Some of those countries have sizable armies.

JL
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:06am PT
Desert Storm was successful, and nothing even faintly along those lines is being contemplated.

This aint STORM. No where near it. I was there. Lots.

Storm was initiated to quell the invasion of Iraq into the sovereign nation of Kuwait. It was a unanimous UN Resolution to go in, repel Iraq and free Kuwait and then get the fk outta there.

This on the other hand is something far deeper and stronger than you JHEGE can fathom or understand. Your ignorance of the Muslim culture and the long ongoing feud between the Shiites and Sunnis is one of the most powerful and longest that man has ever seen, is typical for most Westerners.

The only way we Whitees from the West could ever possibly quell this feud, is to do as Spain, France and England did for some 300 years. Invoke a Crusade. The Sunni and Shiite jihadist in the outlying regions will rise and come to the aid of their side. It will become a shetstorm the likes we have not seen since WWII. If not worse. But you do not get that.

The Syrian people have done nothing to the security of the United States. Leave them be. Let them feud as they have for centuries.

If the Arab League wants to do something about it, then let them do so.

NOT US.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:07am PT
The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.

 Ernest Hemingway
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Largo- very well stated.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:15am PT
The task of U.S. leaders is to remind the people that we have a lot to lose if others come to believe that we are no longer willing to bear the burdens of leadership.


The WSJ article betrayed a mind set and value system that worked well into the 1990s but ran aground in Iraq. I challenge the idea that we are the arbiter of universal values and the de facto enforcer of same, and that the only serious response to "serious matters" is military force. Forcing a deterrent to further gassings is a noble idea but you'd have to be willing to enforce it at all costs and there lies the rub. We don't want to publically say we are gunning for a regime change but anything less is chickishit in my book. If a president gasses his own folk and you decide to do somethign about it, take the man in charge out. But then we'd be responsible for the fall out and in a country with few resources for Haliburton and others to plunder, who's going to go all the way? And with what money?

After Iraq, and Afghanistan, it seems insane we are considering getting into another conflict in an Arab nation, and that professional journalists (not mere bloggers) are insisting we must get to dropping some few billions worth of Smart Bombs to reestablish our clout, moral authority and hegemony in the world.

JL
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:15am PT
your so full of crap hedge you stink worse than a stockyard on sale day.





Operations — air and naval phase[edit source | editbeta]

Prior to the start of air strikes in January 1991, coalition naval forces were operating in the Persian Gulf to enforce sanctions against Iraq. Along with other nations, French warships conducted boarding operations against ships suspected of breaking the sanctions against Iraq. On one such occasion, on 2 October 1990, the French aviso Doudart de Lagree (F 728)[1] intercepted the North Korean vessel, Sam Il Po, which was carrying plywood panels. After the merchant vessel repeatedly failed to answer bridge-to-bridge radio calls, warning shots were fired across the vessel's bow. Sam Il Po then stopped and permitted the French ship to board.[2]
A long series of UN Security Council resolutions were passed regarding the conflict. One of the most important was Resolution 678, passed on November 29, giving Iraq a withdrawal deadline of January 15, 1991, and authorizing "all necessary means to uphold and implement Resolution 660", a diplomatic formulation authorising the use of force. After the deadline passed, on January 17, 1991, intensive air operations began. The majority of missions were flown by the United States, but French Air Force aircraft also took part. SEPECAT Jaguars undertook ground attack missions, Mirage F1s undertook ground attack and reconnaissance missions and Mirage 2000s provided fighter air cover. Mirage F1s were later grounded over concerns that they would be misidentified as enemy fighters by coalition forces since the Iraqi Air Force also operated the Mirage F1.
Compared to losses faced by U.S. and U.K the French suffered no loss of aircraft in any engagements in the war. The French had deployed 40 planes. Four Jaguars were damaged by AAA fires.[3]



Theres your damm french effort ala desert storm.




Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:24am PT
LET THE FRENCH HAVE AT IT ROFLMAO!!!!!

Dont even know WHO THE HELL GASSED anyone, but FULL STEAM ahead! what an asswipe you are joe hedge. a little malingerer asswipe.


obama would want to nuke someone and youd be alll for it.. Fairly sure by now you have what can only be described as a homo-erotic tenancy with the prezidunt.. You must like the BBCs LMAO!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Storm was initiated to quell the invasion of Iraq into the sovereign nation of Kuwait.

WRONG!

Desert Storm was initiated to ensure an uninterrupted flow of oil to American businesses so the rich could continue to get richer.

Period.


I abandoned the Repugnican Party because of the f*#khead GWB.
Looks like I will be abandoning the Democratic Party if Obama attacks Syria.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:24am PT
We Whitees...Is that a reference to the Mountain range east of the Sierra..?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:25am PT
WWJD?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:33am PT
Ledge rat, exactly why im an independent. Either label stinks with equal zest these days. IMAGINE if overnight most of america went INDEPENDENT. It would mind fukk them silly in washington.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:37am PT
For sure...Using dubya as a measuring stick is dangerous but most of us all know invading another country is pork barrel...? Don't we...?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:38am PT
obmacare- soon to be de-funded. Cant even handle his HOME job. Makes a complete DISASTER of Egypt with the exact same fools he wants to support in Syria. Anyone that cant put this together is flat retarded.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:38am PT
I can't believe you guys haven't solved this yet...
Credit: Wade Icey
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:40am PT
"No one has yet made clear the reasons stated by GB, Russia, France, Germany, Japan, and China for not mounting an attack."

I can't see Russia as having OUR backs going into Syria. Syria is their only foreign military base. If Iran jumps in they'll pull Russia to their side. They all already use Russia's guns and armory. Besides, Russia doesn't like us right now anyway. We want to boycott the Olympics
because its against the law in Russia to be homosexual. Meaning no "gay" athletes in the Olympics. "Gays" in America have already boycotted Russian vodka and started rallying against Russia's protocol. And the Muslims still throw rocks at homosexuals.
Obama jus left for Russia ironically. This is the biggest meeting of his life! This far.
We should all pray for Obama to convey the right message.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:44am PT
BB,,im afraid its a prayer in one hand and shyt in the other to see which has more weight.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:53am PT
what an idiot.. ANYONE want to tell shytfer brains that the air defense installations for Syria are RUSSIAN and manned by them.



"""they pulled out""" of his azz i guess...
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:59am PT
This thread will be nuked in the morning. It is serving no purpose.

edit: maybe knott. Can't find the "delete thread" function. carry on..

second edit: What the hey, let it ride.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:24am PT
No, little one. Back to kindergarten, son. Russian advisers, but that's it.




Off the coast in the MED this baby is floating around looking for Tuna:

Russia says it is planning to hold a series of major naval drills off the Syrian coast in the Mediterranean as the US and its allies plan to deploy missiles on Syria’s border.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/01/11/282996/russia-to-hold-major-drills-off-syria-coast/



You adult Jhege do know what the fk that thang above is do you not? I can guarantee ya that there are a min of three of the thangs pictured below directly underneath and around the that Ruski "Surface" Tuna hunter boat above:




Cus that is how them Ruski Tuna Hunters roll.

Oh, and they are not atal advising shet. They are looking for Tuna... American Tuna.




JHEGE
Isn't it great to listen to these patriotic Americans like Rong denigrating their own country's military capabilities?

MAN!!! Dude... you are sounding like some news announcer from FOX NEWS!! WTF?
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:24am PT
Hedge -- "leave the debate to adults capable of understanding facts,"

Then leave Joe.

Follow your own advice first.

Since you're so full of sh!t ........
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:13am PT
Thomas Friedman's finally piped in...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/04/opinion/friedman-arm-and-shame.html?hp&_r=1&
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:15am PT
Ummm, Chief, isn't that Russian sub a boomer? If it is a boomer, it's not the kind of "tuna-boat protector" that we'd see in the Med.

Anyway, details aside, I totally agree with you: not us, not now, not there; there's no justification for any U.S. action. Spend that money on something we need at home.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:21am PT
So the Congressional Democrat doves will be voting for the Syrian war
and violating their core peaceful beliefs just to prevent Obama from being shamed.

Seriously this is the most f#cked up time in recent history.

Going to check out the window because pigs are flying today.



Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:26am PT

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:45am PT
If there is no global response to this breaching of a universal taboo on using poison gas, the world will be a much more dangerous place. And only America can spearhead a credible response: Russia and China have rendered the United Nations Security Council meaningless; Europe is a military museum; the Arab League is worthless; all others are spectators. We are out front — alone. We may not want to be, but here we are. So we must lead.


Leading by default. Has the rest of the world no sac at all? None?

JL
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:00am PT
Credit: command error

The Clans are gathering, which is always a mistake.
If we can't keep them separated there's going to a fight.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:07am PT
Leading by default. Has the rest of the world no sac at all? None?

I hear you, it's a tragic mess.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:21am PT
another case of follow the money/oil or in this case NATURAL GAS...

a huge NATURAL GAS field has been recently discovered in Syria (recently is relative...)

our corporations MUST have that NATURAL GAS and our MILITARY is the corporations COLLECTORS/PROTECTORS...

The natural gas will go to Europe and Syria will be the pawn used to draw IRAN and RUSSIA into a WAR...

JUST MY OPINION!!! But it is backed up by FOLLOWING the $$$/OIL/NATURAL GAS...

Sorry for any young americans sacrificed at the PROFIT ALTER
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Hedge = The official blathering political brainwashed supertopo forum idiot.

Take a vacation Joe.

Go to Syria and Iran and learn something.

Spend a few months there.

Gawd damn have you become a stupid brainwashed fool .......
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:38am PT
Ummm, Chief, isn't that Russian sub a boomer?

Dual role now. In fact, they not only op as a boomer/attack, but can deliver a large amount of weapons cargo etc.

After the demise of the COLD WAR, the Ruski Navy has slimmed down their Sub Force drastically. Doing so, the Typhoon Boomers now play a multifunction role. The Typhoon Class boat is one badass platform. The Ruski's finally got around to realizing that it can play several roles at once effectively.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:40am PT
Hedge -- "I back up everything I post with facts."

You really need help.

And no money can buy the help you need.

Take the vacation.

Go to Syria and Iran and really learn something.

But you won't.

Your brain washing is fully complete.

You are the epitome of the Stupid "Ugly American" .......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:41am PT
The natural gas will go to Europe and Syria will be the pawn used to draw IRAN and RUSSIA into a WAR...

Man, I want whatever you're smoking.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:42am PT



WBraun

climber

Sep 4, 2013 - 07:40am PT
Hedge -- "I back up everything I post with facts."

You really need help.

And no money can buy the help you need.

Take the vacation.

Go to Syria and Iran and really learn something.

But you won't.

Your brain washing is fully complete.

You are the epitome of the Stupid "Ugly American" .......







spot on,, spot on...
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:47am PT
HEGE...

From the Supreme Leader of the US & Allied Forces during WWII in Europe.


HMMMMMM....








Nuff said HEGE.


I suggest you follow the wise words that WERNER is offering you while you can... gracefully?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:49am PT
But Chief,, hedgetwats middle names ARE Futility and stupidity.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:51am PT
Go to Syria and Iran Joe.

Learn something instead of keep on blathering here .......

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:53am PT
you dont know squat, hedgetw#t. What DO YOU know about fighting? that would be a big zippo. your 'bravery' has never gone beyond a keyboard. NEVER.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:55am PT
anyone hear that queef?

ohw my bad,, its just hedgetwat.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:57am PT
You used to be in the military, and you're spouting this crap?

Hahahaha, if you were on current active duty, we both know what would happen to you for that. You'd be lucky to get away with a dishonorable discharge.

Yeah you think so? Well given my personal experience at serving in the military I'd say you're 100% wrong. The soldiers do the loudest complaining about do-nothing citizens back home, slurping Starbucks and wondering about the NFL games this weekend, while they? Maybe die today, and no one back home has their back. They know they'll get left holding the bag of sh#t while those same Americans switch to Peets next week.

If only soldiers could vote to authorize war? We wouldn't have any. They'd willibgly vote themselves out of a job. These are the people who volunteer to give up rights to serve in your armed invasion forces.



DMT
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:59am PT
Go to Syria Joe

Send us a report just like coz has been doing
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Hedge -- "I know disloyalty when I see it ..."

Your brainwashing is so complete you've become completely blind.

Nothing will help you until you take your vacation ......
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:09am PT
Good advice to you from Werner Joe. You really only spout nonsense well over 90 percent of the time.

At least you use too, I haven't read but a rare post of yours for quite some time. No need as there is nothing in a Hedge post but baloney and hot air.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:10am PT
If Hedge was in charge the whole planet would be gone tomorrow .....
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Can't say about that Werner....but he'd have a whole hell of a lot more folks ignoring him.

...or trying too.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:18am PT
I'm saying the vast majority of Americans who saber rattle would never a nd never did, actually wield a saber themselves. They sat out GWs 1 and 2' Afghanistan as well. They stopped paying attention to these undeclared wars. Where was the outrage over the daily death toll? There wasn't t any. Americans have become like Romans. Citizen militia? Lol, no. A paid professional army.

We should enforce the constitution. We MUST REQUIRE that the congress does its job and actually votes yes/no on war. This would include limited action dodges as well as authorizations to use force. What bullsh#t. If congress had to vote for and then be held accountable for the results of thse wars, that would eliminate a lot of sidelines bullsh#t.

Upon any war authorization there should be the institution of MANDATORY draft for ALL able bodied adult citizens. Go to war? The whole country goes to war. if you're not involved? Then your opinion should mean nothing.

DMT
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:23am PT
No Americans are going to die.

Maybe not.

But these are the faces of the innocent children that can and will be utilized by ASSAD as human shields. Guaranteed. Collateral damage from a Tomahawk or any other form of airborne weapon is no pretty sight Hege.

Below is the reality of it Hege.


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:34am PT
OK - but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. You keep insisting that we're sending troops into battle, and unless I'm going too, I'm a hypocrite.

Taking it personal? That's you taking it on, as you know I did not single you out.

Sending bombs to another country is committing US troops. Someone has to push the button and live with the resulting death they were ordered to produce, on behalf of a people who think international politics is about testosterone and 'not being pussies.'

Excuse me a moment - "No I said a GRANDE latte, Grrrrrrrandey!"

Ahem, now if I may continue...

If you want to discuss you and me, I don't agree with your Machiavellian perspective, this is true. I think that line of reasoning ends in military or police states. I've long noted that the far left is just as willing to commit others to action, perhaps more so, than the far right.

Cheers
DMT
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:41am PT
And trying to claim that hundreds of children being gassed is "civil war" is ludicrous

Typical Whiteeee Tidy Amerikan idiot.


Hege, please do cite where there are rules that govern a "civil" or any other kind of war?


HEGE:

"It's a disgrace that children are dying from being gassed. But very acceptable that they die from the outlying collateral damage of a U.S. deployed weapon when it impacts.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 11:52am PT
You think the reason we shouldn't act is because someone in our military will get their feelings hurt?

Nope. I stated my reasons.

Cheers

DMT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
OK, someone pushes a button and lobs a missile at DC.

Act of war? You bet you'd call it that.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
HEGE:
Again, if you really think that, then why were you in the military?

Cus I wanted to be a part of an elite group of individuals that sacrificed their own desires and needs in order to assist those in dire need of help.
I do not even expect you to understand.









NOT to partake in another sovereign nations internal conflict
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
OK, someone pushes a button and lobs a missile at DC.
Act of war? You bet you'd call it that.


Not according to Hedge.

Hedge just loves lobbing sh!t at people without ever seeing the complete whole repercussions.

Armchair voyager ......
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
There's now a huge media blitz to hammer home the stupid lies and propaganda to drive home the policy of the people behind Obama's stupid agenda.

The stupid Hedge type lapdogs will all lap it up and clap their support.

Good job ya morons .... thanks again for showing us your stupid brainwashed intelligence ....
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Joe .... just push the button and be done with it.

You're far too stupid and brainwashed to see or understand this stuff.

Just give it up and push your stupid button ........
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Dear Syria,
To protect Syria from being bombed by Syria, we are now going to bomb Syria. Your welcome.
Sincerely.
POTUS
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
What exactly is the "agenda"?

Good question, Joe, but it is really hard to give a good answer. Most seem
to agree that it is a no-win strategy militarily and strategically. The only
logical explanation I can see is that Obama feels he has to make a statement
to show that the US is the world's arbiter of righteousness. But, as I've said
previously, that is more than hypocritical in light of our steadfast refusal
to do anything meaningful to help the poor people of central Africa lo these
past 20 years. Conservative estimates are that 2 million have died there
while the US crickets sang a blind lullaby. Apparently arab children are
more valuable than african.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Word
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
If you don't know then go to Syria and Iran and find the real truth ......

Go or push the button.

Your choice.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
I find it sad, but not surprising, that the Democrats and Republicans in a very contentious Congress were able to rise above partisanship, but we children of the Taco cannot.

Anything we do or don't do will bring about terrible consequences because of demographic and geopolitical facts largely beyond our control. We need real debate where people listen to each other. Few have the discipline to listen after someone insults them.

Knock off the personal insults and tell us what you think we should do and why, if you know. Our government is in a tough spot, and I, for one, am grateful that Obama had the wisdom to seek congressional concurrence for any military action. It may merely be an action to seek accomplices if things go wrong, but in this instance, we need caution and deliberation much more than we need immediate action. A militantly Islamist Syrian government would bring about not merely a geopolitical failure, but a humanitarian catastrophe.

John
pc

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
“One of the most important lessons of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is that military success is not sufficient to win,” Mr. Gates said. He noted that the entire American diplomatic corps — about 6,500 people — is less than the staffing of a single aircraft carrier group, yet Congress isn’t interested in paying for a larger Foreign Service.

This from the Sec Defense!!! at the time...

From a 2008 op-ed article in the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/opinion/10kristof.html?_r=0

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
I find it sad, but not surprising, that the Democrats and Republicans in a very contentious Congress were able to rise above partisanship, but we children of the Taco cannot.

I find plenty of consensus, in my day to day experience, plus on this topic its nearly unanimous. A few familiar voices are itching to get someone else to go drop something to kill a bunch of people but that is their usual prescription for international relations.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
What should we do, Joe? How can we preserve American credibility in the region, prevent further use of chemical weapons (or better yet, abate the carnage generally) and avoid an militantly Islamist Syrian government?

I didn't make my statement about terrible choices from defeatism. I made them recognizing a trade-off of bad outcomes.

John
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Some chemical weapons depots are being targeted

hedge the moron has spoken.

you do realize that if there are populations near those chemical weapons sites that putting a bomb there is going to disperse the agent and kill more innocents right?

no, of course you dont know that cuz you dont know s%%T!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
I find plenty of consensus, in my day to day experience, plus on this topic its nearly unanimous. A few familiar voices are itching to get someone else to go drop something to kill a bunch of people but that is their usual prescription for international relations.

Or there's Randy Newman's take in "Political Science:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx-7THEZ6xk

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
The Kuwait part of Desert Storm was a liberation operation with very willing hosts sanctioned by the entire free world and the UN. Thinking this victory suggests an immediate military action in Syria, as our moral obligation as the World Leader, is IMO to drastically underestimate the difference between Kuwait in 1991 and Syria today - and what ANY show of force, no mater how deadly, can achieve in the long term.

This whole business of equating bomb dropping with world leadership and moral high ground is insane. If you want to punish Assad for gassing to death 1,200 of his owe folk - and this sound good to me - than make Assad the target, and anyone else who uses chem weapons. Keep the pressure on Assad till he cannot move to the next house over. Drag him off to the Haigue. Burt don't spend one single dime, nor kill anyone in Syria for whatever reason.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
The liberation of Kuwait was about liberating oil. Nothing noble about it. No one gives a rats ass about Kuwaitis, except Kuwaitis. They're neighbors don't seem to like them though.

Carry on.

DMT
pc

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
I really wish we could find a way to re focus our military industrial complex on the foreign service/diplomatic corps and other "intelligent services". Let them ride around in billion dollar boats, planes, and cars. Let the new "complex enabled" service find ways to resolve these problems without dropping bombs.



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Thanks, Joe. Again, I'm not saying that we should do nothing. I'm simply making the observation, based on what people I know (including, in one instance, a first cousin) in the area have reported, that any action (or inaction) we take has a downside to go with its upside.

John
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/29/9-questions-about-syria-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Sep 4, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Obama is wrong on this one.
Watch the video... Just get over the fact that GBeck is in it.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqJfFrkzf8I

EDIT: This was on CNN... Not just crazy TV
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 4, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
CNN IS crazy TV.... The worst.

And for the love of Allah or whatever imaginary friend you prefer, Assad didn't use chemical weapons the day before inspectors landed. Does that make sense to anyone?

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Soooo many wingnuts on this thread who supported Iraq seem to forget that that's the rationale Bush used against Iraq, which they cheerleaded for.

And you use this as a cudgel to beat them over the head with, to win a silly internet 'debate.' Cool.

But me? I count a victory each time I see a former neocon now advise caution. It seems some people actually learned some lessons.

Now you fault them for it.

But since you're doing such a good job at pulling folks toward your POV... oh wait, you can't even convince neocons that its a good idea to lob bombs at Syria.

Go figger...

So who is the partisan one, again?

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
This region has periodically been embroiled in civil wars that sucker in external powers since 498 BC and the Ionian Revolt.

Didn't work out to well for the Athenians to get involved either.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
Lol. As I figured, we're still able to communicate ;).

Cheers
DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
Barry's other "success" story

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/special-report-we-all-thought-libya-had-moved-on--it-has-but-into-lawlessness-and-ruin-8797041.html


Special report: We all thought Libya had moved on – it has, but into lawlessness and ruin






Libya has plunged unnoticed into its worst political and economic crisis since the defeat of Gaddafi
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
This region has periodically been embroiled in civil wars that sucker in external powers since 498 BC and the Ionian Revolt.

Oh please stop pretending you're educated. It doesn't work.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
Athenian interference in the Ionian squabble led directly to the Persian invasion of Greece. (at least according to Herodotus)




Very "onionesque"

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/03/Inside-the-mind-putin
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Apples and oranges
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
The nerve gas Hedge still trying to bomb supertopo forum with the gas from his ass because he thinks no one here can think for themselves.

He thinks he's some kind of politard moderator know it all.

Bizarre stupidity .....

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
The standoff range of weapons has gotten a little bigger since the time of the Athenians.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
“It is in NO ONE's, repeat NO ONE's, interest that Assad be deposed in this manner EXCEPT the Syrian Sunni majority who have been subjugated by the minority Alawis and Assad clan for four decades and caught the 'Arab Spring' fever. This is a friggin' nightmare scenario for EVERYONE, especially the Israelis, who are now attempting to manage the current shitstorm to stay current with events on the ground and to try use what nearly non-existent influence and resources they have to some - any - advantage. They did not gas anyone or have the slightest involvement in it. Period.”

“to try use what nearly non-existent influence and resources they have to some - any - advantage. They did not gas anyone or have the slightest involvement in it. Period.”


Kind of funny that all the intelligence that the US is getting their resources from is from these guys Healje http://www.idf.il/english/

You think we have propaganda these guys make us look like 3 year olds making sure you have the incorrect information.

http://www.idfblog.com

Their newly added one: http://www.idfblog.com/hezbollah/

Look and find Unit 8200 see what they do and make sure you look for Israel’s chemical weapons program located at the Israel Institute for Biological Research (IIBR]] in Ness Ziona.

Check out flight “El Al Flight 1862” crash in 1992. Get to the best part “the cargo” and how the Israel’s covered the information or misled until 1998 investigation.

Israel does not lie they always will tell you the truth.

So jghedge and Healje try do some homework go to the sites see how students are giving/creating you with disinformation and propaganda on Facebook, twitter .

As for me no doubts about if Mossad paid merc agents to spray the kids they have done it before.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
If Obama messes up he can always blame it on some guy who made a video.

Kerry can throw his State Department portfolio over the White House fence.
( What a bloviating ass-wad he is. Jeebus Christ, he should take dancing lessons from Miley Cyrus.)

Kerry is the main cheerleader on all of this. Obama is too worthless as a Commander in Chief to know his ass from a hole in the ground. He couldn't even save a few brave guys at an embassy in Benghazi.

Kerry can finally get the job and the massive ego boost he has always wanted.

What is it about that part of the world that keeps sucking our top egotistical narcissists into permanent fooldom in the Stupidity Hall of Fame.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Obama is too worthless as a Commander in Chief to know his ass from a hole in the ground.


He knows what's going on.

He's too scared to NOT go along with his handlers for he knows he just may end up as JFK if he did .....
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
Or what if the rebels were the ones who set off stolen nerve gas in an effort to trick the US into an attack?

There is no what if.

Hedge and Kerry "know it all" already said Assad did it.

End of story.

Only Hedge and Kerry know.

Hedge and Kerry rule the world ......

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Yes that magic wand that instantly creates strike forces ready to attack angry mobs within 10 minutes in a country 5 times bigger than CA is never around when you need it

Strike force.LOL

Where's a President and Commander in Chief around when you need him....don't tell me...running for reelection?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Where's a President and Commander in Chief around when you need him....don't tell me...running for reelection?


Ward gets it

Obama is running for his third term as President, just don't tell the Constitution that
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
"You have to have a vision, "You have to know what you're going to do, and you have to provide the kind of leadership the commander in chief would provide."

Sure, right: Rumsfeld, like you really know how to lead, where would we be if it was not for your intelligent mind since Viet Nam. And as for your response as in what would you do in this current situation and say you have no clue, great vision Sh%thead.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Obama is running for his third term as President, just don't tell the Constitution that

Hey , fort mental , the reference was about Benghazi which occurred about a month before the election last Nov.
This is was why Obama trotted out the guy with video bullsh#t. He was afraid the entire incident would jeopardize his reelection.
Which , due to the massive stupidity out there, worked.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
"He said the U.S. doesn’t have a ready force standing by in the Middle East, so “getting somebody there in a timely way would have been very difficult, if not impossible.”

The question remains...what did Gates know and when did he know it. And for whom? LOL
And for how much! Haha

Now that Gates has helped to cover Obama's rear end on Benghazi he has become the only Republican with credibility. Oh yeah, I forget about that black dude who was a general.
The one who registered as a Republican to advance his military career. What was his name?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
America doesn't lack cruise missile credibility. We've used them in the past and everyone knows we'll use them again. There is even the distinct possibility that we might invade a country. But that is only intimidating to an Assad. It doesn't intimidate the bigger players in the game who know that we will never bomb them or invade them.

Credibility is about more than bombs. It's about being able to effectively play the game of nations. In the bigger picture, it's about the perception that your opponent knows what he's doing. Announcing that you have to bomb another country to demonstrate your credibility is about the best possible way of proving that you have no idea what you're doing. It's begging for your bluff to be believed.

No act of Congress can buy Obama any kind of credibility and no amount of bombs will put the mom jeans back on the naked emperor. It's too late for that.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-case-of-obamas-missing-pants.html#comment-form

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Why didn't that happen, Ward?

Because Obama was running for reelection ?
One really doesn't have to know what a few politically bribed asscoverers have to say about the impossibility of saving those Americans at Benghazi. Or believe them at face value
What remains is the sorry spectacle of Obama and Clinton's actions and words in the tragic aftermath.
I mean, the entire farce cooked up about some obscure guy who made a video that incited the mob to murder those Americans, when Obama and Clinton knew all along it was a planned terrorist attack. In order to protect their political careers they trotted out this bald -faced, almost comical deception.
Who can ever trust these people ever again?
Its like the Bush/ Cheney WMD moment.

Try asking the magic wand Israeli special forces who raided Entebbe.
They were also told it would be impossible.



Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
You mean the one they planned for a week? Why'd they wait so long?

Because it was more more complicated and much more difficult than Benghazi and they had the luxury--- not because it was impossible or could be compared to stupid metaphors like magic wands.
The Israelis were waiting on their Intel to inform them of the location of everything. They were particularly concerned about possibly killing civilians, especially non-Israelis . They had a very, very complicated scenario there.
But they had self- confidence and a resolute leader, who knew what the f*#k he was doing.

If they would have had anything like the Benghazi logistics it would have been a piece of cake.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Sep 4, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Obama today on his way to the G20..


" I didnt draw the red line,, the WO