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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 21, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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You were right to say something, you might have saved a life. Perhaps you could work on your technique and specific message. It's a hard situation to be in.
Cheers!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 21, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
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Although I haven't read Dale Carnegie, I seem to have fastened on his technique to some extent. I'll usually ask a question that has the potential to lead to a discussion and doesn't include an implied criticism. If I'm rebuffed, then so be it.
What Steve saw, however, is very difficult to deal with in a way that is both constructive and effective. It isn't as if the guy set up a belay anchor with two brassies or with umbrella'd cams (I've seen both...), technical errors that are easily and objectively explained. No, this is someone who lacks the appropriate combination of mental discipline and reality-checking that contribute to safe climbing. I've known climbers like that, some of them talented and quite experienced, but they seem to be operating in an alternate reality that doesn't include consequences that seem all to obvious to me. Unfortunately, in cases like this you are basically suggesting a personality change---and good luck with that, no matter how much Dale Carnegie schmaltz you package it with.
I admire Steve for trying, but I think the case is probably hopeless. Folks who climb like that sometimes learn from the catastrophes they invite, if they survive them, but I seriously doubt any commentary from strangers and even friends, will have much effect as long as they are getting away with what they do. I'm sorry about the kids, but they obviously aren't the point, since their presence evidently had no effect on the climber.
So all things considered, this is one I'd take a pass on. Yes, the potential for tragedy, especially tragedy perpetrated on innocent children, seems notable, but I just don't think the intervention of a stranger would have any effect.
All that said, there is a different perspective that is equally important, which is how Steve would feel about not saying anything. If one's sense of decency compels one to act, then that is arguably justification enough, regardless of the effectiveness of the action.
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Elvis Leg
Trad climber
Northern, CA (returned from exile in TX :)
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Aug 21, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
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When I was a noob I was helped by someone speaking up. At JTree of all places I was setting up an anchor with webbing tied in a loop by an overhand. No backup knot.
Someone took the time to show me a water knot, and I've learned thing or two since. My one goal as a climber is to be an old climber. Going on 15 years in my career is a start.
I will talk to people if I see something sketch. I've found opening with a question helps get the conversation started.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Tough deal.
Climbers by nature all believe they are "Doing it Right".
In reality, they should.... After all, they must live or die with their decisions.
You may not be as great as you think you are.
I find climbers LOVE to hear themselves speak as authority about the right and wrong practice in climbing. I think its annoying.
What if he did what you suggested and then died?
Anyway, I have had a couple of instances where I decided to find a way to help.
I was fortunate that these instances went smoothly... It's all in the delivery, and luck of the draw as to who you are suggesting to....
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Aug 21, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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As a N00b myself...
Yes! Speak your mind to the noob!
Presentation matters, of course, but even if it sucks, as a noob, I tend to think about the subject matter, and prompting more thought (even "damn that climber was an a** for mentioning blank...") is a good thing.
"simul-rapping is dangerous! You should never do it!"
"You should NEVER belay off your harnes!!"
All comments like these, although poorly phrased, will often get me to think and discuss the subject matter, well after I've finished bitching and complaining about busybody climbers. I've even made changes after some comments like that.
As for this particular circumstance....dayum that's scary! I dunno if I would have said anything to the climbers, but I would have wanted to say something. "oh man, some climbers don't have even have 'safety' on the first 3 pages, let alone in the top 5...good luck dude"
But I know one thing...I'm too much of a wimp to climb with someone who climbs like that leader guy...
Cheers
LS
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 21, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
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Batten lives!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Aug 21, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
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Hi Steve, I think that you did the right thing, even though some may quibble about the details of your approach. I remember an experience at your old home crag of Crow Hill, where I saw two obvious newbies with multiple serious faults in their top-rope and belay systems. As I was trying to absorb what I was seeing I saw them about to make a potentially fatal mistake and did intervene in what I hoped was a friendly but firm way (I told the climber to tie back in after he'd started to untie from the rope partway up a pitch), and offered advice to get themselves out of their predicament. Fortunately they were receptive to my suggestions. They told me that many of their "faults" were taught to them by their friends. It is always a judgement call, but there are times where one really should at least try to say something to prevent a tragedy.
By the way, how was your trip to the Winds and Tetons?
Alan
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
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ladyscarlett.... You've been around here way too long to be a NOOB.
You are a certified "hardwoman"...
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
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Alan,
Ask me that after my ankle swelling has gone down, ha,ha
Hiking 16 miles, with 70+ lb. packs, in one day, and 2 days later, hiking up the Grand T. car to car, in a day will do that to someone my age.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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....Be reasonable. Do it my way...
Whatev's
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Aug 21, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
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I once told a guy that he was off route on the second pitch of a 5 pitch route and his partner snindly told me they could figure it out themselves. The leader then went the way I suggested.
A couple weeks later I see another party doing the same thing. I kept my mouth shut and he took a 50' whipper. Breaking his femur.
That was the end of our climbing day. We spent the rest of it getting him down to the ground.
Now when I see someone doing something sketchy, I let them know. In a polite manner. I don't like doing rescues.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 21, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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I think the correct etiquette would be to ask if they would like some help or advice.
I hate bossy folks telling me my hip belay is wrong or whatever.
In the case presented, the proper thing to do is hold your tongue and whip out the video cam so you can entertain all of us here. I would love to see what you described.
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matisse
climber
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Aug 21, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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Now when I see someone doing something sketchy, I let them know. In a polite manner. I don't like doing rescues.
^^^^^^. my motivation as well. I'm selfish. I don't need to see maimed and dead people. I'd rather prevent it.
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Aug 21, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
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Steve, you never once spoke to me about my damned foolishness back in NH...
Glad the Winds trip went well. Cheers.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Aug 21, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
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You have to go with your gut feeling.
Interfering with someones adventure is a serious thing.
Will it be a 'positive karma' thing or a 'no good deed goes unpunished'
deal where the guy accidentally drops a rock on you some years in the
future because he's still alive to do it.
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Shimanilami
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
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I was walking past a couple of guys practicing questionable (death) techniques. I said to my partner, "I've got to watch this, dude." The belayer saw us sit down to watch and eventually asked us what was up. I said the odds were good that we would soon witness a very serious injury, and perhaps even a death, and that I'm kind of twisted that way. I didn't offer any input. I made no comments whatsoever.
The belayer was clearly perturbed and asked what they were doing wrong. I reluctantly pointed a handful of things that could be done differently, and the guys were quite enthusiastic about altering their practices ...
The point is that the delivery is key. Expressing only an interest in witnessing a tragedy, and being clear that I felt no concern for their safety ... well, I think they took me much more seriously than they might have otherwise.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 21, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
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I hate bossy folks telling me my hip belay is wrong or whatever.
Dude... do it thumb up!!!
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Old_Duffer
Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Aug 21, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
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I was out of climbing for about 14 years. When I came back to it using only nuts and chocks; I took my family to Swan Slabs. I set up a top rope belay with a carabiner sliding over both strands of a runner attached to each piece. I thought it was 'equalized'. What it was; a death trap if either piece pulled out. No redundancy whatsoever.
Ken Yager was guiding a client and came over to me quietly and told me he admired my family and then remarked that he didn't like to interfere but could he point out an issue with my anchor? I immediately lowered my daughter to the ground. I listened to him. I asked him a few questions. I then bought John Long's books (including 'how to build anchors'). I've done some big walls and in the 20 years of climbing since; I've never had a piece pull or an anchor fail.
I sure am glad Ken took the time back then. I recognized his effort not to offend but I really didn't care; I just wanted the information immediately to safeguard my family and me. I had no idea who he was or even that he was a guide. I'm in sales and deal with egos everyday so you do what you have to do to get your message across; but the message is the key. I've always liked Benjamin Franklin's quote about JUSTICE: "Wrong none, by doing Injuries or omitting the Benefits that are your Duty."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 21, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
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BITD, low on angles, I used an old ring angle in a drilled hole for pro on what became a popular face climb.
There was a 2 bolt rap anchor less than 2m to the right, so I didn't think the funky ring angle bolt would get heavily stressed.
After the route got popular I watched a teenager rap from above and, rather than swing to the 2 bolt chain, just stopped and clipped the single funky bolt and proceed to rap.
I commented, and his response was that the rangers put in good bolts and he wasn't worried.
Hmmmm.
(I went up a few days later with bolt cutters and clipped open the ring forcing people to actually figure out how to tie it off with a sling. Sheesh!)
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 21, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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This sort of reminds me of the last time 10b4me and I climbed together at Windy on Mt. Lemmon.
Visitors from SL City Utah ... tons of kids ... dangerous set up, horrible technique ... and though they were sport climbing, I had no idea how SOMEONE didn't get hurt, just due to the noise and lack of attention on the part of one woman belaying, completely distracted by the children running around, who could have very easily fallen right off the Lemmon, unfamiliar with their surroundings.
10b mentioned, very kindly, to the man seemingly "in charge", offering advice for a MUCH safer set up, and to his credit, the man was receptive.
(10b could tell the story better then I)
I was so weary, instead of climbing, I sat under a rock, ate my lunch and watched all the chaos going on. Once they all left, I finally felt at ease. I was happy to be with a climbing partner who offered kind advice, and I suspect 10b was as relived as I was to watch them pack up and go.
After they left, we climbed minus the weariness.
THEN, a man and his new girlfriend showed up. The man had purchased his new lady ALL NEW GEAR, though she'd never climbed a day in her life. What pissed me off about that situation was the fact that he tied in KNOWING his new girlfriend had NO experience belaying. Knowing she had no experience he decided to take a "fall", which slammed her into the wall. She was less then thrilled. I ended up teaching her how to belay, and even found myself being her "anchor" as she continued to belay her new boyfriend. Needless to say, she did one route, hanging onto the rope nearly the entire time, me next to her on the wall, giving her gentle advice to climb up the rock, not the rope. She made it, but seemed fazed and didn't tie back in.
If I remember correctly she said to her new man, "You're going dancing with me after putting me through this!"
OY!
~peace
EDIT: And yes Larry, I was rockin' my favorite shirt from Utah... which the visitors from Utah LOVED. HA!
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