Was I right to speak my mind to a noob?

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steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 21, 2013 - 10:52am PT
I've been climbing close to 50 years and only once before did I ever give some cautious advice to a young climber.
I usually keep my mouth shut, but a few days ago, I felt strongly compelled to speak my mind, rather than feel haunted later that I never spoke up.

I was returning from the Tetons/Wind Rivers, with a few other guys, driving down thru Logan canyon. We decided to stop by a roadside sport climbing area to take a look. My 2 partners jumped on a climb and didn't view the scary scene which was about to take place in front of me.

This guy was just starting up a bolted sport climb, and seemed to be in a great hurry to get going, while his 2 son's, perhaps around 10 years old watched. The guy was belayed by another climber, who definitely had more experience, as I had previously watched him lead another climb with some good technique.

As the guy started up, I immediately surmised that he was in way over his head, climbing with VERY poor technique. The bolts ran in a straight line, but this guy went way off to the left, after clipping the first bolt.

He told his partner that he couldn't go any higher and that he was going to fall. His partner suggested that he down climb, but soon after, he came off taking a pretty wild whipper.

I assumed the guy would access the situation and compose himself after his close call; but instead, he kind of threw himself back onto the climb with wild abandon. His kids didn't seem to be bothered as they scampered around at the base.

I was pretty horrified as I continued to watch him lead past his only bolt, failing to clip the next bolt, since he stupidly didn't even check to see how many quick draws were on his harness before launching off.

He yelled down to his partner to throw him some quick draws as he barely hung on. He then climbed way right of the route, with much difficulty, missing the needed bolts for pro. I almost couldn't watch the scene as he
was level with the chain anchors, but too far right to reach them easily.

He then yelled down that he was holding a rock with his foot which he had dislodged, and to get clear. His son's and friends ran for cover, and somehow he reached the chain anchors, still not clipping in. I wasn't really worried about the 50 pound rock, which came crashing down, but more concerned that he still hadn't clipped in. He was far enough above the last bolt that he would of hit the deck, 70 feet below, if he had come off.

I had never seen such a display of poor leading and felt strongly compelled
to give some cautionary advice, especially since this guy had 2 young boys.

Instead of approaching the leader, I waited till his belayer was alone, with nobody around.

I asked him if he knew his partner well. He told me that it was his brother. I then explained to him, without trying to spray, that I had many years of experience, and had never scene such a display of careless leading.

I explained to him that I was only concerned for his brother's safety and that if he continued in this manner, he would most likely get killed, leaving his kid's fatherless, and to "tone it back a bit".

He seemed to be a bit irritated, and asked me what I meant by " tone it back". I explained that I felt his brother needed to be more cautious and gain experience in a slightly less aggressive nature.

Rather than say more, I ended the conversation.

A little while later, my friends climbed a hard 5.11, on sight, while they watched. The guy I gave the cautionary talk to seemed to warm up a little, after the display of fine leading by my partners.

We left soon afterwards, for our flight out of Salt Lake.

Any comments?



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:58am PT
Darwin is my belayer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:59am PT
Someone that stoopid isn't gonna take any advice - let Darwin have his way.
I was raised by a single mom and I turned out ok.

ps
TV, remind me to never get in a quick-draw contest with you. ;-)
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:03am PT
It sounds like you handled the situation well, and even if they didn't seem receptive at the time you might have planted a seed in their mind that will grow. It's a shame you've waited 50 years to start approaching other climbers. We should all try to be more proactive about approaching others with safety issues. It took me a long time to start approach others as well, and I regret not starting earlier.

It's all about the approach. A great book that helps with stuff like this is How to Win Friends and Influence People. I use those techniques when I'm about to criticize someone, since it can hurt their ego. Example:

Kids TRing off a non-climbing pulley on a single bolt. Instead of telling them they're doing something wrong, I frame it in a constructive positive opportunity, and ask a "yes" question. (If you start a conversation with a question the other person will reply to "yes" to, the rest of the question will probably go better) So... I ask them, "Hey guys, would you like to learn some stuff about how to build a better anchor and why?" They say, "Yes." Results in awesome interaction and they learned a ton!

Josh
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:13am PT
And another story that comes to mind. Two guys were trying to climb Fingertrip at Tahquitz. The leader has gotten off route on the 5.8 corner to the left, and traversed about 40+' out left, protecting it, then climbed all the way back to the proper Fingertrip corner and built a belay about 50' off the ground. I walk by, and see the follower awkwardly heading left cleaning gear. I stop, think about what they're doing, and ask, "Is your plan to have the follower clean all that gear?" "Yes." I look at the follower, "You realize that if you clean it all, then the second you take the last piece out, if you fall you'll swing 50' and hit the ground?" Look of huge surprise, "No!" "Would you two like any help getting your gear back?" "No." At that point, I wandered off. They were big kids and can make informed choices on their own. I walked past again later that day, and there were no blood smears or bail gear, so they must have figured out how to get the gear back safely.

J-Tree is the land of super-sketch that requires constant interventions. I've saved quite a few people out there, but thankfully I've never seen someone get hurt.

Josh
John M

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:21am PT
I think more people should speak their minds, but also learn how to do it. Nature posted a thread about how it helped him to feel less attacked when someone asked if he had a good knot, rather then if they could check his knot. Most people seemed to miss the point that it makes a difference how you approach things. Peoples egos get in the way. The thing is that sometimes no matter what you say, peoples egos will keep them from hearing you. In fact, they can even get very angry and become aggressive. So you do have to be careful. I agree with the notion of planting a seed. Sometimes it lands in fertile soil and a person learns something. Sometimes it lands among the rocks and the person doesn't learn anything. The way I look at it is, did I lose anything by telling them. If they are aggressive and attack me and I get hurt, then sure, I regret saying something. But how often does someone really get physical if you back off. Its never happened to me. So the next question is this. how would I feel if I didn't say anything and they did get hurt. I could use the excuse that they wouldn't have listened anyway, but what if they had listened. Do you want that on your conscious. And I am not talking about going around and correcting every mistake you see. You know the difference. I believe that you did the right thing, but you have to be non attached to how they take it so that it is no skin off your back if they don't take your advice. You did your best and then leave them to their own choices.
kaholatingtong

Trad climber
Nevada City
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:22am PT
+1 for josh, edit, and john, the method of approach makes all the difference.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:29am PT
Ya did it all wrong Steve.

Screw this modern politically correct way homo sh!t.

Scream at em and yell "Ya stupid American idiot".

:-)
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:33am PT
I've spoken up a half dozen times or so, usually not really bad stuff. The worst was a gal who was belaying off of her non-load bearing keeper loop in the gym. Her partner/near victim at least was moderately horrified, she had a wierd "Well nobody told me I couldn't do it that way" attitude.

I guess I'd rather be the guy who takes a lump for getting involved than live with guilt. The case was of Kitty Genovese was used as an example by my mom when I was a rather little kid, and it still sticks with me every time I see a bad situation and have decide to walk on or get involved, climbing or not. Cheesy I know, but that's how I'm now wired.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Got to wonder how long this dude has been climbing? I could not imagine he had much experience as he would already be dead or injured since he is so reckless.

Hey...if it makes you feel better , might as well say some thing to the dude.

Seems like his belayer was a gaper too. Hopefully they figure it out before one or both learn the hard way.

These dudes will show up in the future trying to rap the Nose.


saa

climber
Bleau, cham, pink granite coast
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:43am PT
I think the standard thinking is something like:
Decking from under 30 feet, you ll be hurt,
decking from above 100 feet, you ˆ ll be dead.
Those are ok. Itīs decking from the middle zone that
is scary,
because you will be maimed for life and that might be
a long time.

Can īt remember which master wrote this wisdom.
Perhaps Largo, Steph Davis, Lynn Hill,
another?
Anyhow. Not decking is why we have ropes and cams.



What s the best joke in climbing?
Alex Honnold sponsored by a rope company.

Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Offering help = people may choose to listen and benefit.
Judging with statements about fatherless kids = only you hear your actual advice.

If it was a kid leading I'd feel different, but I feel like I have to respect another adult's right to lead over their skill level and decline my feedback even if it means I pack up to avoid getting involved in the carry out.
steve shea

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Hey Steve, sounds like a typical day at the crags. Missed you in NH. We were in Canada part of the time no comms. Ran into and spent some time with Henry at Zealand. Did your daughter apply for the job in JXN?
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Hey Steve,

Yes, she interviewed there, but took a job at Fryberg Academy in Maine.

Let me know when your in N.H.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Aug 21, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
tone it down doesn't mean anything in particular. Best to stay with things that are more clear, IMHO.

Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Aug 21, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
You were absolutely right to speak your mind. Of course the technique in which the message is delivered will have an immediate impact on how it is received.

Beside the humanitarian gesture, there is a selfish reason for speaking up. When people get hurt or die, it affects the rest of us. Land managers and land owners are given ammunition to block access or impose rules. Relatives sue. That old argument that the risk I take only affects me is untrue. I have sat across the table from government officials and tried to negotiate access for climbing. They will whip out pictures and stories of carnage, and they don't want the liability or publicity that comes with it. Perhaps there are parks which can accept visitors taking those risks. However, many land managers feel compelled to remove that risk from their lands.
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
In hindsight, what was going thru my mind in this case was the fact that this guy's kids were innocent bystanders, in this scene, who would suffer the consequences, if things went bad.

This was different, in my mind, compared to the lone solo, which many of us have done. In both cases, if you slip, you die; but in this case, it seemed
the guy wasn't even aware of the consequences.

kaholatingtong

Trad climber
Nevada City
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
while i fully respect any lamans ability to darwinise themselves, i agree with seamstress on the selfish nature of feeling the need to speak up. frankly, i probably would have said something, and if i did, it would be for purely selfish reasons. ( i suppose he did have kids there, maybe not ENTIRELY selfish ) occasionally if i see people doing obviously dumb stuff i try not to pay close attention at all for similar selfish reasons, so i dont feel the need to overstep my bounds.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
I saw some guys setting up a rope jump on Corona Arch. I asked them if they knew that ropes stretch.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Did one of them have a shoe phone?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 21, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
You were right to say something, you might have saved a life. Perhaps you could work on your technique and specific message. It's a hard situation to be in.
Cheers!
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Although I haven't read Dale Carnegie, I seem to have fastened on his technique to some extent. I'll usually ask a question that has the potential to lead to a discussion and doesn't include an implied criticism. If I'm rebuffed, then so be it.

What Steve saw, however, is very difficult to deal with in a way that is both constructive and effective. It isn't as if the guy set up a belay anchor with two brassies or with umbrella'd cams (I've seen both...), technical errors that are easily and objectively explained. No, this is someone who lacks the appropriate combination of mental discipline and reality-checking that contribute to safe climbing. I've known climbers like that, some of them talented and quite experienced, but they seem to be operating in an alternate reality that doesn't include consequences that seem all to obvious to me. Unfortunately, in cases like this you are basically suggesting a personality change---and good luck with that, no matter how much Dale Carnegie schmaltz you package it with.

I admire Steve for trying, but I think the case is probably hopeless. Folks who climb like that sometimes learn from the catastrophes they invite, if they survive them, but I seriously doubt any commentary from strangers and even friends, will have much effect as long as they are getting away with what they do. I'm sorry about the kids, but they obviously aren't the point, since their presence evidently had no effect on the climber.

So all things considered, this is one I'd take a pass on. Yes, the potential for tragedy, especially tragedy perpetrated on innocent children, seems notable, but I just don't think the intervention of a stranger would have any effect.

All that said, there is a different perspective that is equally important, which is how Steve would feel about not saying anything. If one's sense of decency compels one to act, then that is arguably justification enough, regardless of the effectiveness of the action.
Elvis Leg

Trad climber
Northern, CA (returned from exile in TX :)
Aug 21, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
When I was a noob I was helped by someone speaking up. At JTree of all places I was setting up an anchor with webbing tied in a loop by an overhand. No backup knot.

Someone took the time to show me a water knot, and I've learned thing or two since. My one goal as a climber is to be an old climber. Going on 15 years in my career is a start.

I will talk to people if I see something sketch. I've found opening with a question helps get the conversation started.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Tough deal.
Climbers by nature all believe they are "Doing it Right".
In reality, they should.... After all, they must live or die with their decisions.

You may not be as great as you think you are.
I find climbers LOVE to hear themselves speak as authority about the right and wrong practice in climbing. I think its annoying.

What if he did what you suggested and then died?

Anyway, I have had a couple of instances where I decided to find a way to help.
I was fortunate that these instances went smoothly... It's all in the delivery, and luck of the draw as to who you are suggesting to....

ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 21, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
As a N00b myself...

Yes! Speak your mind to the noob!

Presentation matters, of course, but even if it sucks, as a noob, I tend to think about the subject matter, and prompting more thought (even "damn that climber was an a** for mentioning blank...") is a good thing.

"simul-rapping is dangerous! You should never do it!"

"You should NEVER belay off your harnes!!"

All comments like these, although poorly phrased, will often get me to think and discuss the subject matter, well after I've finished bitching and complaining about busybody climbers. I've even made changes after some comments like that.

As for this particular circumstance....dayum that's scary! I dunno if I would have said anything to the climbers, but I would have wanted to say something. "oh man, some climbers don't have even have 'safety' on the first 3 pages, let alone in the top 5...good luck dude"

But I know one thing...I'm too much of a wimp to climb with someone who climbs like that leader guy...

Cheers

LS

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 21, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Batten lives!
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Aug 21, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Hi Steve, I think that you did the right thing, even though some may quibble about the details of your approach. I remember an experience at your old home crag of Crow Hill, where I saw two obvious newbies with multiple serious faults in their top-rope and belay systems. As I was trying to absorb what I was seeing I saw them about to make a potentially fatal mistake and did intervene in what I hoped was a friendly but firm way (I told the climber to tie back in after he'd started to untie from the rope partway up a pitch), and offered advice to get themselves out of their predicament. Fortunately they were receptive to my suggestions. They told me that many of their "faults" were taught to them by their friends. It is always a judgement call, but there are times where one really should at least try to say something to prevent a tragedy.

By the way, how was your trip to the Winds and Tetons?

Alan
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
ladyscarlett.... You've been around here way too long to be a NOOB.

You are a certified "hardwoman"...
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Alan,

Ask me that after my ankle swelling has gone down, ha,ha

Hiking 16 miles, with 70+ lb. packs, in one day, and 2 days later, hiking up the Grand T. car to car, in a day will do that to someone my age.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
....Be reasonable. Do it my way...

Whatev's
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
I once told a guy that he was off route on the second pitch of a 5 pitch route and his partner snindly told me they could figure it out themselves. The leader then went the way I suggested.
A couple weeks later I see another party doing the same thing. I kept my mouth shut and he took a 50' whipper. Breaking his femur.
That was the end of our climbing day. We spent the rest of it getting him down to the ground.
Now when I see someone doing something sketchy, I let them know. In a polite manner. I don't like doing rescues.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
I think the correct etiquette would be to ask if they would like some help or advice.

I hate bossy folks telling me my hip belay is wrong or whatever.


In the case presented, the proper thing to do is hold your tongue and whip out the video cam so you can entertain all of us here. I would love to see what you described.
matisse

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
Now when I see someone doing something sketchy, I let them know. In a polite manner. I don't like doing rescues.

^^^^^^. my motivation as well. I'm selfish. I don't need to see maimed and dead people. I'd rather prevent it.
Edge

Trad climber
New Durham, NH
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Steve, you never once spoke to me about my damned foolishness back in NH...

Glad the Winds trip went well. Cheers.
abrams

Sport climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
You have to go with your gut feeling.
Interfering with someones adventure is a serious thing.

Will it be a 'positive karma' thing or a 'no good deed goes unpunished'
deal where the guy accidentally drops a rock on you some years in the
future because he's still alive to do it.



Shimanilami

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
I was walking past a couple of guys practicing questionable (death) techniques. I said to my partner, "I've got to watch this, dude." The belayer saw us sit down to watch and eventually asked us what was up. I said the odds were good that we would soon witness a very serious injury, and perhaps even a death, and that I'm kind of twisted that way. I didn't offer any input. I made no comments whatsoever.

The belayer was clearly perturbed and asked what they were doing wrong. I reluctantly pointed a handful of things that could be done differently, and the guys were quite enthusiastic about altering their practices ...

The point is that the delivery is key. Expressing only an interest in witnessing a tragedy, and being clear that I felt no concern for their safety ... well, I think they took me much more seriously than they might have otherwise.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
I hate bossy folks telling me my hip belay is wrong or whatever.

Dude... do it thumb up!!!

Old_Duffer

Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
I was out of climbing for about 14 years. When I came back to it using only nuts and chocks; I took my family to Swan Slabs. I set up a top rope belay with a carabiner sliding over both strands of a runner attached to each piece. I thought it was 'equalized'. What it was; a death trap if either piece pulled out. No redundancy whatsoever.

Ken Yager was guiding a client and came over to me quietly and told me he admired my family and then remarked that he didn't like to interfere but could he point out an issue with my anchor? I immediately lowered my daughter to the ground. I listened to him. I asked him a few questions. I then bought John Long's books (including 'how to build anchors'). I've done some big walls and in the 20 years of climbing since; I've never had a piece pull or an anchor fail.

I sure am glad Ken took the time back then. I recognized his effort not to offend but I really didn't care; I just wanted the information immediately to safeguard my family and me. I had no idea who he was or even that he was a guide. I'm in sales and deal with egos everyday so you do what you have to do to get your message across; but the message is the key. I've always liked Benjamin Franklin's quote about JUSTICE: "Wrong none, by doing Injuries or omitting the Benefits that are your Duty."
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
BITD, low on angles, I used an old ring angle in a drilled hole for pro on what became a popular face climb.

There was a 2 bolt rap anchor less than 2m to the right, so I didn't think the funky ring angle bolt would get heavily stressed.

After the route got popular I watched a teenager rap from above and, rather than swing to the 2 bolt chain, just stopped and clipped the single funky bolt and proceed to rap.

I commented, and his response was that the rangers put in good bolts and he wasn't worried.

Hmmmm.


(I went up a few days later with bolt cutters and clipped open the ring forcing people to actually figure out how to tie it off with a sling. Sheesh!)
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
This sort of reminds me of the last time 10b4me and I climbed together at Windy on Mt. Lemmon.
Visitors from SL City Utah ... tons of kids ... dangerous set up, horrible technique ... and though they were sport climbing, I had no idea how SOMEONE didn't get hurt, just due to the noise and lack of attention on the part of one woman belaying, completely distracted by the children running around, who could have very easily fallen right off the Lemmon, unfamiliar with their surroundings.
10b mentioned, very kindly, to the man seemingly "in charge", offering advice for a MUCH safer set up, and to his credit, the man was receptive.
(10b could tell the story better then I)

I was so weary, instead of climbing, I sat under a rock, ate my lunch and watched all the chaos going on. Once they all left, I finally felt at ease. I was happy to be with a climbing partner who offered kind advice, and I suspect 10b was as relived as I was to watch them pack up and go.
After they left, we climbed minus the weariness.

THEN, a man and his new girlfriend showed up. The man had purchased his new lady ALL NEW GEAR, though she'd never climbed a day in her life. What pissed me off about that situation was the fact that he tied in KNOWING his new girlfriend had NO experience belaying. Knowing she had no experience he decided to take a "fall", which slammed her into the wall. She was less then thrilled. I ended up teaching her how to belay, and even found myself being her "anchor" as she continued to belay her new boyfriend. Needless to say, she did one route, hanging onto the rope nearly the entire time, me next to her on the wall, giving her gentle advice to climb up the rock, not the rope. She made it, but seemed fazed and didn't tie back in.

If I remember correctly she said to her new man, "You're going dancing with me after putting me through this!"

OY!



~peace

EDIT: And yes Larry, I was rockin' my favorite shirt from Utah... which the visitors from Utah LOVED. HA!
jstan

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
When you speak up, you take on a measure of responsibility for whatever it is that may follow. Just factor that into your personal decision making.
10b4me

Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
Aug 21, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Steve, I think you did the right thing. However, my experience has been that good rock climbing advice doesn't sink in until someone gets hurt. Then, the usual refrain is "I should have......."
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
We have an expression up here when spotting noobs with bad habits on an ice climb "Lets get out of here before we have to rescue someone"
WyoRockMan

climber
Flank of the Big Horns
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:00am PT
I'll be forever indebted to the "old dudes" that shut us down as teenagers the first time we showed up at the crag for speaking up. Likely saved our lives.

If you came across this, would you speak up? We all should.
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:03am PT
Earlier this summer, hot in SLC, so, time to cool off in a foothills playspot...


When we came upon the couple, the feller was riggin' his new friend (first date) with a 5mm Prusik in case she had an issue on her second rappel, ever. Her first rappel being the low angle one that got her to this location.

At least he lent her his helmet.

We rerigged her rap device (a Totem I'm guessin') and I put her in fairly high friction mode, since these canyoneerin' folk like the single strand rappel (biner block). Good thing, since, she let go her brake hand two or three times negotiating the step down into the water.

We told the feller to fireman's belay her, but, he had a fair amount of slack in the rope. She lived. We offered a fair bit more advice, which, he was amenable to.

Takes more aplomb to deal with some of the scary situations out there than I'm usually capable of...
Licky

Mountain climber
California
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:07am PT
Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:41am PT
I know Steve and climbed with him in the winds and he is not only very very solid and experienced, but very well intensioned. I feel you did the right thing and I bet the guy learned something that day. when I started cimbing I was tip roping and had just gotten my new rope. I had also boght a few biners but no slings. So I go out to this crappy crag and set up a tr on this tree,but there was a problem how do you conect the rope to the tree. Well I look around the car and I find this dog leash. It looked like the stuff in the store so I figureef it should work. Well we do a couple of laps and this old dude comes up and tells us about our mistakes. I think he maybe even gave us some webbing. Probably prolonged my climbing career and possibly my life too. Nice job Steve. I garuntee he thought sbout it that night even if he was offended.
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:15am PT
Ken Yager was guiding a client and came over to me quietly and told me he admired my family and then remarked that he didn't like to interfere but could he point out an issue with my anchor?

^^^ My preferred approach.

No climber is above making mistakes, as witnessed by the number of veterans who have been seriously injured or killed (or had incredibly close calls - ala Lynn Hill), and the level of scrutiny after accidents on this forum is evidence of the community accountability that we all think is necessary to climb more safely. We're all still learners, to one degree or another.

I think you did the right thing, SteveA. If the person reacts badly to the correction--assuming you aren't being a jerk about it--then that's probably a sign that they needed a reminder (even if they don't seem to be receiving it well at the moment) to stay teachable.

When I find myself bristling at someone's question regarding an anchor or belay setup, or whatever, it's pretty much 100% ego reaction (after all, I've been climbing for about 35 years). I think we climbers--noobs and veterans a like--are pretty averse to admitting we might be irresponsibly (even ignorantly?) putting someone at risk. Though I may hate it at the moment, questions and corrections drive me to be more focused, more up to date (just consider, for example, how load equalization debates have continued to this day), and to do everything I can to widen the margin of safety for myself and the person/people I'm climbing with.

Speak up!
10b4me

Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
Aug 22, 2013 - 10:49am PT

When you speak up, you take on a measure of responsibility for whatever it is that may follow. Just factor that into your personal decision making.

True. That's why I like to build the anchor as opposed to telling someone how to build an anchor.
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