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Messages 1 - 68 of total 68 in this topic
Conan

Trad climber
Cave City, KY
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 12, 2006 - 02:58am PT
I need to get a message to him sooner than later. Not an emergency, but somewhat urgent nonetheless.

Cheers,


Conan

Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 12, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
I can reach him if it's an emergency. I sent email to your profile address.
eddie7

Trad climber
London, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 12, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
Hey Randy.
Let me know as well please.
cheers.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 12, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
Pete should be down off the wall tonight. He should be at my place, sucking up my Internet connection and probably all the beer in my house Friday night. Either way, I'll just be happy to have my ropes and gear back, man! Sheesh!
Landgolier

climber
the flatness
Jul 12, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
PTPP ALERT! INCOMING HTML! DUCK AND COVER!

So what route is he on?
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 12, 2006 - 05:48pm PT
He and Tom are just finishing up Cosmos.
eddie7

Trad climber
London, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 12, 2006 - 06:50pm PT
Cool. Thanks Randy.
Rattlesnake here we come!!
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 12, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
You know, I've been in the geek biz for over a decade now, so I've got nothing against people knowing a thing or two about computers, but...

HOLY LAME-ASS DORK ALERT, BATMAN!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2006 - 01:47am PT
We're baaaack.......

Is this the same Conan who once got forgotten in Snorkland?

So what's happening in Roppel Cave? How many survey stations did you guys get over the July 4 expedition?

As for Cosmos - it's all retrofitted with new ASCA 3/8" stainless bolts.

El Cap Route #30 - TICK!

[Like, sorry for the bold text, eh? Couldn't resist....]

Cheers,
Pete

Yes, Randy - Friday night! Are we doing Mexican food for supper, then? Hoping to escape the Ditch around 4pm or so.

And, um, about that shiny new gear and rope you left with us two walls ago? Well, it's not quite so shiny any more. But at least nobody will think you're a BWT. Just show them your gear. "Yep, been up Dihedral Wall, been up Cosmos...."

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

As for other news, Ammon, Ivo and Dean Potter were up this aft having a run at Reticent in a push. We shall see how they do. Go, lads!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 13, 2006 - 02:56am PT
Congrats on 30 Pete. That's quite a lot!

The remaining ladies on the dancefloor must be looking either hard to get or long in the tooth!

Peace

Karl
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 13, 2006 - 03:13am PT
Well, when you dance as slow as Pete, the ladies don't have to move very fast! ;)

Congrats Pete!

No worries on the gear, Pete. The only shiny new things I had were the new haul line and the swivel. So long as it hasn't turned to ghetto gear like some of yours! hah!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2006 - 02:17pm PT
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! I specialize in slow dancing - for like eighteen nights!

The haul line is now worn smooth and that shiny sheen is gone, but dude - get this - it still freakin' SLIPS sometimes in the Kong! Very strange. We had to use the Protrax to haul with it. I wonder if you could return it and say,

"This rope is no good for hauling because it slips. I asked for a static HAUL line and this doesn't meet the need. Can you replace it with one that does?"

It might be worth a try, eh?

As for the swivel -- well, it might have a scratch or two on it. ;)

News flash - Tom just got back from the Meadows, and Ammon, Ivo and Dean are just above Wino Towers on Reticent, having started at 2:30 or so yesterday afternoon. The pitch above Wino Towers is one of two Real Live Death Pitches on Reticent - it's rated new wave A4 only because of its single rivet - otherwise it's new wave A5 all the way. Darn hard pitch.

Then of course there's that penultimate pitch up there to deal with.

Best go grab some beers, and hang out making "monkey calls". We're heading up to the base of Lurking Fear to retrieve our gear. That was my second descent of El Cap by rappelling Lurking Fear, and lemme tell you, it beats the heck out of schlepping up and over to the East Ledges!

Right, time to go dance to some music ----- S - L - O - W music!
DixieGal

Trad climber
NC
Jul 13, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
PTPP,
Have you climbed the Reticent Wall among your 30?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Jul 13, 2006 - 09:34pm PT
any word on Team Reticent?

Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 13, 2006 - 09:45pm PT
Pete has done Reticent in his 30 climbs.

As for Ammon... At about 5:00, they were above the Irie, heading towards the crux pitch. Ammon led the pitch above Wino in about an hour (only 2 hours earlier!)! Talk about fvcking PROUD! New Wave A4, as ther eis one rivet on the pitch, otherwise it'd be A5! Right on, Ammon! AAARRRRGGGGHHH, Bro!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 12:55am PT
Yeah, we made the eighth ascent of Reticent in '98. There are two real-live Death Pitches on it. {Shudder}

Just brought back my last carry from the base of Lurking Fear, which we rapped after Cosmos to avoid the East Ledges descent.

Looking up from the bridge just at dark, I could see one headlamp at the base of the penultimate crux pitch, and another to the right cleaning the traverse which leads left to it.

Those boys have been on the go now like 36 hours. The crux pitch is very serious! To undertake it in the dark and exhausted would be truly sick! Send it, dudes! I'll let y'all know tomorrow when I find out how they made out.

Rattlesnake, Blaine? Saw one on the trail tonight.

Cheers! And many thanks, Karl!

I believe I am at 293 nights on El Cap, not counting base and summit bivis. I'm about to turn 47 [I think], so if I can get in another 72 nights by the time I turn 50, that would be 2% of my life spent on El Cap....

The Better Way, or the Sign of a Misspent Lifetime?
eddie7

Trad climber
London, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 08:56am PT
Too funny Pete.
I'm going to give you refresher lessons in free climbing!
Won't even charge you.
Hoser.
darod

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Jul 14, 2006 - 09:05am PT
PTPP, did you have a look at WOS?
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Jul 14, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
We're heading up to the base of Lurking Fear to retrieve our gear. That was my second descent of El Cap by rappelling Lurking Fear, and lemme tell you, it beats the heck out of schlepping up and over to the East Ledges!

I've thought about that ever since Schneider and company fixed lines on that rap route for the West Face/Lurking Fear/Nose day about ten years ago.

Did you have any problems rapping through parties on LF? How long did it take to get everything down to the base of LF [I'm assuming you left the bags at Thanksgiving Ledge]?

I suppose if that method of getting off the top gets popular maybe an independent rap route could get installed that avoids most of the established climbs.
up2top

Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
Jul 14, 2006 - 01:09pm PT
Any word on Ammon and crew yet?

Pete -- a big congrats. Some days you're like sand in the boxers, other times you give me hope. ;-) Regardless, relish your time there and say hi to the monkeys for me.

Ed
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 14, 2006 - 01:18pm PT
hahaha... Pretty good analogy, Ed! =)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
Ed - never give up hope! If a wanker like me can somehow claw his way to the top of El Cap, then *anyone* can. I have no real climbing talent and substandard-sized bollocks, but I am just too stupid to give up.

I have no further word on Ammon, Ivo and Dean except what I saw last night. I hope they made it OK, a hard pitch in the dark after so long on the rock would be pretty serious stuff.

Blaine - I actually did step out of free climbing retirement on Cosmos. Tom loaned me his free climbing shoes - it's amazing what you can do with sticky rubber. My wall shoes have both toes blown out, and that duct tape on the soles holding them together doesn't really make for the greatest friction, eh? The topo said it was 5.8 - it was *gripping* {shudder} I *almost* reached for the hooks, but chose the Road More Travelled. Ya Hoser.

Teth - I'm not ignoring you! Will respond when I get home!

Gunkie - please remind me next week, and I'll write some detailed beta on rappelling Lurking Fear. For People Like Me [who climb like they dance] and wrestle enormous pigs, rapping LF is the Better Way down from Thanksgiving Ledge. It is not for everyone, however - meeting another party or two en route could scupper your plans. My first time with Cybele, she got hosed, and it was a 12-hour ordeal. This time with Tom we did it fairly quickly, and it was just under seven hours. I don't expect you could go much faster with two guys and two pigs. If you are travelling light and fast it would probably be better to hump your pig over the slabs and down the East Ledges. The diagonal raps are tricky, too, when you are riding two hundred pounds of piggage. I'll tell you how to do it easily, however.

darod - {sigh} Yes. Arg. I will be publishing a VERY detailed report about Wings of Steel. Tonm and I had the opportunity to spend a week with Mark Smith and Richard Jensen, and not only are they two of the nicest, coolest and most class-act guys you could ever hope to meet, I am convinced that they put up arguably the hardest route on El Cap. Truly what they accomplished on Wings Of Steel was so far ahead of its time - and still is! - that the climbing community was unable to comprehend it, and manufactured its own version of the truth which has endured to this day.

This, however, is about to change. I'm going to publish a detailed essay of my observations and interactions with Mark and Richard, and tell you what I found on Wings of Steel.

As for how did I do on Wings? Well, see the comment above about the size of my bollocks...... They may be small, but they are INTACT.

Cheers,
Pete
BWP
jack herer

climber
chico, ca
Jul 14, 2006 - 02:29pm PT
With all the talk about the ritcent being so hard, didn't chris mac lead that crux pitch when he was 17 and downrated it to A4 but printed A5 in the guide to please the masses. I cant see a pitch still being A5 after 9 or 10 ascents.
yo

climber
I'm so over it
Jul 14, 2006 - 02:36pm PT
Try 30 ascents. Maybe the monkeys brought ST's own Mike. to cruise the Reticent crux on accident. hahah


Reticent in a push is so bad I don't even know what to say. Is this badder than PSD IAD? Wow.



(Thanks for the various updates, Pete.)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
Like, yer welcome, eh? Sorry, the updates end today, as I am heading home tomorrow.

The crux pitch of Reticent was most assuredly legit New Wave A5 on the first ascent, and probably still was in 98 when we made the eighth ascent. It is also the sort of pitch that lends itself to staying this hard. Here's why.

What I recall of the pitch is that it starts out with expando nailing and decent Aliens. You are climbing above a sidewalk-sized ledge. After a bit [can't remember, thirty feet?] you climb a diagonal-leaning downward-facing crack that now accepts heads. Steve Gerberding told me that on the first ascent, he used beaks, but it's now beat out to heads. Certainly these first two sections of the climb will now be easier.

After that, you hook across up and left on top of a rather wobbly and loose flake. While you can place small stoppers behind the thing for "pro" I doubt it would hold a fall. Back when we climbed it, it looked as though it was about to fall off. Since it hasn't yet, it's probably more solid than it appears.

After this, Warren Hollinger told me you find "the only two anchors on the pitch" - these consisted of a good #3 fixed head, and a good blue Alien on the left in a small and entirely solid vertical crack.

After this stuff is where the real meat and potatoes starts. You start hooking up and right for a frighteningly long distance up a dead vertical to slightly overhanging wall on entirely natural hook placements which are quite small and scary. The McTopo notes that some piton placements are available here, but when I cleaned this section after Chris led it, the pins that he placed were junk. He put them in as "pro" but didn't even use them for aid because he was afraid to weight them! As for the hooking, hell, I couldn't even see where Chris hooked the placements are so small.

After this long hooking section, there is a loose-ish crack to finish.

The point of all this is that it could well remain New Wave A5 over this crux section, because:

1. No drilled or enhanced placements
2. Possibility of falling and ripping darn near the whole pitch
3. The certainty of hitting the sidewalk-sized ledge after falling over a hundred feet

That being said, I asked Ammon about the pitch. "It's not as hard as it used to be, Pete."

So I look forward to hearing what Ammon has to say about the pitch, and the whole adventure!
darod

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Jul 14, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
Thanks Pete, I can't wait to hear your report on WoS, hopefully it will bring some closure/justice to this whole fiasco.

And congrats on your ascent of Cosmos!

Cheers,

darod.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
Thanks, mate. Cosmos was a cool route, from the fifteen-foot-tall raven's nest to the fifteen-foot-tall block we trundled! We have replaced a bunch of the rusty old quarter-inch bolts at the belays with shiny new stainless 3/8-inch ASCA bolts. All drilled by hand, no power but elbow power for us.

Yes, it is time to bring closure to Wings of Steel. Richard and Mark will be fully vindicated. Ammon will support all this, too, and hopefully climb the route in full.

The whole Wings of Steel thing is the most fascinating study in human nature, and how the truth can get so wildly distorted simply because enough people choose to believe what they WANT to believe, rather than what is really there!

The stuff I have discovered will blow you away - you will be shaking your collective heads in disbelief. You will feel the suffering that Richard and Mark have so undeseveredly felt for a quarter-century!

I need to spend a few days thinking about it and writing it, there is simply so much to share! Suffice it to say, those boys were bad to the bone, and pushed climbing so far beyond what the Reasonable Man would do that they entered an entirely different realm, one which remains unpenetrated to this day.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 14, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
So Pete, I've been entirely out of the loop and other than getting an email saying some folks were about to start climbing WOS I never heard more about it and if I owe some beer and wine I need to know where to ship it and I'd like to hear a bit about the whole adventure...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
You sure don't owe *me* any beer! Big report coming, you'll have to wait a few days....
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jul 14, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
Pete,
thanks for the update. Like Healyje I was one of your beer sponsors. In retrospect perhaps we should have sponsored mucho beer prior to the ascent? Anyway, glad you had a good time in the valley and are safe and sound. Like many, I look forward to hearing about WoS.
Gary
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 14, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
Pete,

I think you're being WAY too gracious in making comments about how the "truth can get wildly distorted". Very gracious, in deed.

Plain and simple, the entire thing was a smear and fear campaign. More than anything, from what I can tell, because some people felt like their toes got stepped on, with maybe a bit of jealousy, as well, over the fact that someone came along and put up a route where others had failed multiple times.

Regardless, I came away with a lot of the same findings, I'm sure. I saw the route, saw others on the route, stood on the hook moves myself, hung with Mark and RIchard for a few days... We'll talk tonight, Pete. I've also talked with Ammon, at length, about this and his findings. I'll state again that I feel if anyone is going to do an successful SA of this route, it will be Ammon, for sure. To do WoS you need BoS (Balls of Steel).

As for Mark and Richard... Well, I'd have to whole-heartedly agree with Pete. Definitely a class-act, of above average character and all around good guys. Regardless of any of that, they put up a bad ass route and have been done a terrible wrong for more than 2 decades now.
eddie7

Trad climber
London, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
I'm looking forward to the WOS 'essay' as well.
Should be a good read.
Drop me a line when you get back from the ditch Pete.
cheers, eh?
bp.
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jul 15, 2006 - 12:41am PT
Nice job and Congrats PT.

The Better Way, or the Sign of a Misspent Lifetime? Seems both.
Ammon

Big Wall climber
El Cap
Jul 15, 2006 - 08:52pm PT

34:58

OOOoaaahhhhhh!!!!
valygrl

climber
Santa Cruz
Jul 15, 2006 - 09:02pm PT
Rad Ammon, congrats to you I & D.

Anna
BrentA

Gym climber
estes park
Jul 15, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
Fuqin sick...just sick. I'm vomitting on myself with self loathing to know there are people alive that do that sort of thing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 15, 2006 - 09:43pm PT
Wow,
For "an arm chair has been that never was" like me, this thread was a fun "read"; neat stuff going down.

I was at a meeting in the SAR cache after WOS took place and met those guys at a meeting, more or less mediated by John Dill: where "we", as the incumbent SAR members at hand, collectively nailed them to the cross for overbolting, like an inquisition or something. I do remember they were quite polite fellows and withstood our harangue.

PTPP: this will be an interesting report, straight up.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 16, 2006 - 02:24am PT
Wow! There's SO much to say here... Did any of the SARs guys, who weren't involved in the rope cutting and shitting on the gear actually go have a look at the route? You can stand at the base, look up at the first few pitches which, incidentally, are the crux of the route, and SEE that it wasn't overbolted. Or did everyone simply take the people's "word for it" who *told* them it was overbolted? Just curious.... There's so much more to say here, but I think it best left to the reports that will be coming out of this.

More than anything, it seems that a mob mentality simply took over and two poor chaps paid the price, for years, for something completely invalid. The whole time, they had the balls to take it "politely" and not reciprocate. Class...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 16, 2006 - 01:32pm PT
"Overbolting"?!

"You" pathetic wankers. Evidently "you" didn't even bother to GO LOOK AT THE ROUTE to see that it was far from overbolted! It's the hardest, scariest most run-out thing I've ever seen! The REASON the route has not been repeated is BECAUSE it's not overbolted!

Yes, there is indeed so much to say here. Believe me I will have plenty, however before I start to write, I want to gather as much information as possible. [I hesitate to use the word "facts"...] Tarbuster, since you were actually an eyewitness to, and possibly even a participant in, the Inquisition, I would be *very* interested to read more of your recollections. It's not hearsay when it comes from a direct observer like yourself.

See here's the thing - the more I dig into this great mystery, the more amazed I become!

Tarbuster, do you recall who the other Inquisitors were? Are any of them still writing on this forum, and would be willing to offer their recollections? What were the specific accusations against Mark and Richard? How did Mark and Richard respond? Where and when did this event take place? How was everybody arranged? Were you in a circle surrounding the "accused", or were they backed up against a wall? Who did you see as credible, and why? What did you say after Mark and Richard were gone? How did you see Mark and Richard's ascent of Sea of Dreams? How did the community as a whole see Wings of Steel at the time, and say a month or two later, then say several years later? How did the collective "you" see yourselves? Did you fancy yourselves "Valley Christians", "Vulgarians", "Rock Police", something else?

The reason I ask is because this is incredibly fascinating to me! Certain events in climbing are notoriously distorted or even lied about, but it is usually the climbers themselves who lie about what they have accomplished. In the case of Wings of Steel, it is as though the climbing community created its own conspiracy! What I am trying to determine is why - was it a Conspiracy of Intent, or a Conspiracy of Ignorance? I heard that one of the collective "you" - let's call him "Nipsey" - backed off the first pitch of Wings of Steel, allegedly in great fear from a single bolt - is there any veracity to this hearsay?

Please don't misunderstand me, Tarbuster - I am not trying to make you or anyone else look bad. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck happened, so anything you can share would be greatly appreciated.

I feel like an investigative journalist. I want to uncover the truth, whatever it is - the good, the bad and even the ugly. There seems to be a ton of each! I want to set the record straight, to right a wrong that has been hanging over Richard and Mark for a quarter-century. I swear, you could write a whole Ph.D. Thesis on the Wings of Steel thing. Wait'll you guys read some of the stuff I've found, you'll hardly believe it either.

About the only thing I don't find amazing is that Richard and Mark responded politely.

In continuing amazement,
Pete

P.S. Nice send, Ammon, Ivo and Dean! Arrrrrr!!!! I think it took us eleven days to climb Reticent back in '98!




Shouted from Dihedral Wall at Wings of Steel during the First Ascent:

"Hey! Why don't you try using a hook?!"

Richard, completely gripped and looking at another epic 40- or 50-foot fall:

"I am on a hook!"
darod

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Jul 16, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
No can of worms here, simply the truth (finally), and it seems like this one will hurt!!!

There are a few very "respected" climbers that still had very harsh words for these two, just a few months ago, right here in ST. Let's see what they now have to say after Pete publishes his findings.

Can't wait.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 16, 2006 - 03:37pm PT
Yes Pete, this could get good.
Quite a can of worms perhaps.
The WOS ordeal was a nasty spectacle indeed.

No I don't feel any reproach from you per se; If I felt squirrely about it I wouldn't have posted my recollection.

The SAR meeting I spoke of was not super well attended, not in the sense of the overall outrage at large; maybe 8-9 of us. It was something Dill put together which was a good thing and those of us on the site on that particular day went in to check it out. I wouldn't say that we comprised a core group of well organized antagonists; we were surely opposed to Richard and Mark's effort via the prevalent ideological scuttle of their tactics. This was a broad community based denial of their efforts, largely based on some reports of excessive bolt ladders/drilling tactics- how that got started I can't say.

I am interested in hearing your findings of the route itself, not that I would be greatly surprised to know that it has significant merit. Your report would probably due more justice to the scenario and better help to vindicate Richard & Mark than any retroactive hunt concerning the individual perpetrators of said inquisition. I was definitely in the Valley when nasty things were going on, but that wasn't my bag, so I can't comment on damaging activities.

Your specific questions are good data points to try to pin down, but you'd need to get that from someone more involved and invested in the reproach. Just who is posting from that era who might effectively support or report on the stance against WOS, we'll have to wait for that - it is out there.

This isn't really the kind of relevant reportage you are looking for, but anecdotally I'll say the dust up had some bizarre and strange peripheral consequences:
A bit later I was involved in putting up some free routes in the Needles and I contacted Ed Leeper for some hangers and button heads, he said he'd recieved a call from somebody blaming him for supplying the bolts for WOS, so he was withdrawing himself as a direct supplier of bolts for the time.

Various bolt wars raged for more than a decade and I saw most of it as building a detrimental profile for climber's interests at large.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 16, 2006 - 09:16pm PT
That's frickin' incredible! Ed Leeper stopped supplying bolts because of Wings of Steel fallout?!

Like I say, the more I dig, the more amazing the whole story becomes! Thanks, Tarbuster. Any other tidbits you could share would be greatly appreciated.

What I found is very simple - an extremely hard and runout hooking route that was way too difficult and scary for me, put up by two guys who surfacially seemed pretty ordinary, but who rose to a level so far ahead of their time that nobody could believe they accomplished something good, therefore they must have accomplished something bad.

Some of you here have been libelled on the internet, and know how that feels. I'm one of them. A few years ago a single disturbed individual used no fewer than nine fake user names to perpetuate lies about me. One "person" wrote something, then the "others" backed up the lie. While it appeared to have some veracity, to me the numbers didn't add up. There were arithmetic inconsistencies I couldn't put my finger on. It was like too many detractor fish in too small a pool, and wasn't representative of the real world. Eventually the hoax was exposed, and the perpetrator was exorcised. I can laugh about it now, but at the time it disturbed me a bit.

A far more sinister thing has happened to Richard and Mark for the last twenty-five years. You can't appreciate the depths of their hurt - these guys really got lambasted unfairly! And I just don't get why! It was truly insane! Not only did magazine editors refuse to publish their letters and explanations, but Mark and Richard were physically threatened to the point where Richard actually made some underworld contacts in a bike gang to seek out protection! I sh*t you knott! Randy, Tom and I nearly pissed ourselves laughing when he told us this story! [It worked, incidentally.....]

One thing I also need to do is to read through the 400-odd posts here on McTopo to see some of the things that others have written. Remember, I was one of the unbelievers until Richard and Mark started writing here. I have a quote from Steve Grossman that will make you shake your heads in disbelief, too.

But I'll close this post with the quote from the Reid guidebook:

"Note: This route contains many rivets"
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 16, 2006 - 09:32pm PT
This type of topic is typically not where I like to put my energies.

My intent is to share the positive aspects of climbing with those who play here. It's too bad those guys got so torched, whatever the facts.

Hey Pete, why don't you ring me up?
check your email.
HalHammer

Trad climber
CA
Jul 17, 2006 - 10:41am PT
Hey, Interesting PTPP. So did you climb WoS? What did you find?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 17, 2006 - 11:02am PT
Pete,
Here's some food for thought:
(I am still open to a conversation if you like).

It’s not that incredible that Leeper stopped selling bolts, because the perception of bolts being involved in this whole thing was quite widespread.
And for the record, because this is how things get spun out of proportion, I wouldn’t say that he stopped selling bolts in total. He told me on the phone, that he would not sell them directly to me, based on his presumption that the quantity I asked for indicated that I’d be overbolting. Never mind the legacy of routes at Suicide using purely bolts for protection; Leeper heard from me, that I’d be using, on 3+ full pitch routes, 2 bolts for belays and between 3 to 5 bolts per pitch. He surmised that to be excessive and decided that a route that unnatural must be forced. This was directly based on his feelings about calls made to him concerning WOS. Oh well, so it goes I thought.

The point is that there was fallout from this thing, not the least of which was the experience Richard and Mark suffered. The interesting thing is, you might say that the community at large brought it on themselves (ourselves) per things like Leepers stance, if we in fact spun this whole thing up out of fabrication. Maybe so; I can’t know that for myself. This is where you’d have to read those 400 posts on the other threads, and really dig around historically to sort it out. I think that is not so easy to do, but it isn’t impossible.

Which brings me to my next point.
As you try to vindicate those guys, which as I said is probably best done by climbing their route, in it’s entirety, you’ll find that it isn’t so easy to get to the bottom of things in a complete factual sense in regards to what people said and did at the time of the first ascent of WOS. So then this thing becomes potentially a fulcrum for those who’ve felt “outed” in one way or another by Valley locals or whoever, to project that angst onto this historical event and leverage it to vent that feeling. Fine, but the risk is that the pendulum then swings wildly the other way and then you have a bunch of angry hearsay and finger pointing toward the Valley community of the 80’s.

Well, this has happened before, back when Kim Carrigan climbed America’s Cup on the Cookie and that whole hullabaloo about the insular and xenophobic nature of quite a few Valley locals. I recall Mark Chapman was quite disappointed that our legacy had been spun down that low, because he relished the time when the Europeans came and shared in the exploits and he was able to encourage international participation. I climbed with Carrigan before all of that and had a great time with him, and that’s how I remember him. If people feel pushed into a corner, they will often push back, yes -no surprise.

I personally had no great stake in the vitriol aimed at Richard and Mark, so my recollection of that SAR meeting is fleeting at best. They probably remember it well. I related the SAR meeting as a neutral anecdote; with a nod to the nuttiness and apparent or potential hypocrisy of the whole dust up and a report of the WOS team’s willingness to meet with SAR and to do so in a well behaved manner. They may as well have initiated the meeting, I do not recall. Vaguely, I took away a sense of no real factual data points emerging from that, just silly posturing and at that point in that room, unverifiable reportage; certainly nothing concrete which I hold now in my mind, so far down the pike. I vaguely recall that they started out doing something funky, whether drilling or bolting excessively, then caught the gist of the community disapproval and kicked into the gear which you described and which they have reported, meaning the repeated big falls from long stretches of hook placements. Good luck sorting it all out and don’t take that as any kind of factual support of anyone’s truth; maybe it’s there, maybe it isn’t. Just call bs on whatever you can, if you can really dig it all back up.

I read that whole Skinner bolting angst thread and I’m just not that incensed by all of it anymore and have not been for decades. I will say that the issue of whether or not Skinner, Richard, or Mark may or may not be nice guys does not have anything to do with accepted practices. Your point Pete is that you feel people shouldn’t be unfairly accused of acting poorly by some mob faction. Well that is certainly a fair stance.

I’ve posted this here on this thread, because my responses are only relevant to what I have briefly encountered here with you, Nefarius, and darod, so I’m tossing some thoughts to address this context directly. The other WOS threads are a study in themselves and I am not versed on the context, haven’t read them well enough that I would post there.

I also knew Rob Slater quite well and would love to be able to ask him about his experience on the route, but he is gone. We would all do well to get along and enjoy ourselves before we too are gone.

Sincerely,
Roy McClenahan
Ben Rumsen

Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
Jul 17, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
I was also in and out of the Valley when that route went up, but never hanging out in C4 ( then or now). I can only offer this - back in those days we all threw our cans and poop bags off walls and picked up the cans and other trash at the end of our wall climb. Those two were on WOS for so long, I seen to recall that a lot of the outrage was over the excessive amounts of trash and sh#t at the base. An unfortunate side effect of the wall practices of those days. I think there was more anger over the trash dump at the base than how and what they were climbing.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 17, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
Thanks for sharing Roy and Ben. Yes, Mark and Richard told me they had left quite a heap of trash at the base, as was the custom of the day. 39 days' worth of poop bags would leave quite a pile, wouldn't they? It's too bad nobody offered to clean up for them while they were up there on the wall.

One of the allegations I remember from the posts here was that they left a streak of urine and feces running down the slab. They didn't, because they pitched the stuff off. Mark told me years later he was walking in the woods near the base and found one of their pee bottles that somehow didn't explode on contact!

One thing that continues to puzzle me is the over-bolting allegation. See, the first two pitches were chopped after the perpetrators jugged Mark and Richard's ropes. I think it was this act - plus the threats of physical violence - that made Richard and Mark decide to get on the wall and stay up there where nobody could "get" them.

At any rate, the chopped bolts and rivets on the first two pitches were replaced exactly as they were. You can see the chopped rivet right next to the replaced one. They used the bolt hangers to hide the chopped bolt holes, however. The guys who went up and chopped the bolts had to know how few there actually were! The first pitch is quite long indeed, perhaps 150' or more, and there are [I recall hopefully correctly] only a couple rivets and four or five bolts over its entire length, making for huge, scary and dangerous runouts. Blow it while leading this pitch, which you are certain to do because the hook placements are microscopic and insecure, and you will fall long and hard and quite possibly wreck your ankles on some of the small ledges you are certain to hit!

So how could somebody chop this pitch, and say there were too many bolts? It's crazy sick runout! Either they did it in the dark while drunk and didn't realize how serious and runout it was, or else they intentionally misrepresented the facts.

It's not overbolted, it's way hard and runout, it's way too hard for me! I'm not prepared to take the serious long falls that the second ascent of this route will require. It's my belief that the second ascent of this route will require the climber to actually fall farther than he climbs! It might take more than three fifty-foot falls to figure out how to get up a hundred-fifty-foot pitch! [I really *really* hope Ammon goes for it - I'll be there rooting for him.]

This is how far Mark and Richard were falling when they were putting the route up! They didn't know it wasn't customary to continually take big whippers when putting up first ascents!

Mantra from back in the day:

"A thousand bolts to Horse Chute!"
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 17, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
Thanks for the responses here, guys. It's all definitely helpful.

I've obviously researched this quite a bit too, as well as spoken to both Richard and Mark, at length, for weeks now. Both online and off. I've also spoken to some other respected climbers from the time, as well as respected climbers from now who have some knowledge of the route and events that took place. Also, not forgetting that I was a part of the SA team, as long as it lasted, with Pete and Tom.

In light of all of this, I guess the one thing I'd point out is that Leeper's philosophy of overbolting doesn't seem consistent with "hard" routes of the day, on El Cap, and the ethics practiced there. I find it odd that the things Mark and Richard were accused of were evident, in larger proportions, on these "harder" routes. It seems to me that this was more the community's stance than "Leeper's stance". Maybe Leeper was simply defending his business. Makes sense. The guy has to sell hooks to someone, right? The depth and breadth of this thing was pretty large, encompassing the whole climbing community. The loudest voices being some largely respected names. Names most climbers looked up to and listened to. I think there's plenty of evidence showing their influence, which was definitely at work here. There's certainly evidence of the influence they, themselves, felt they had over this.

Incidentally, in light of all of the above, I'd also be interested in anything that anyone would care to contribute to getting to the bottom of things. I think it will be interesting to see the different takes on all of this when everyone's TRs come out.

Cheers!

Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 17, 2006 - 01:36pm PT
Ben,

That is interesting, in deed. And, Pete's right. 39 days worth of crap and trash! Wow! I can see that being an issue. I wonder, and I'll check, if maybe Mark and Richard *did* have someone who was supposed to help with this cleanup, while they were on the route. They did have a person who was supposed to keep in radio contact with them and help with some other things, while they were on the route, who flaked on them.

I really want to thank everyone for taking the time to post and answer questions Pete and myslef pose and for keeping the dialogue going on this. More than anything, for being open. The whole thing is, as Pete stated, interesting, for sure.

On a side note, Ben... Guess we didn't earn that Charles Mitchell, eh? Bummer. Next time. =)
Ben Rumsen

Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
Jul 17, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
" On a side note, Ben... Guess we didn't earn that Charles Mitchell, eh? Bummer. Next time. =) " -

That's ok. If you guys are in the Valley in September I'll bring the '97 with me and we'll drink it!!
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jul 17, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
Interesting post, Tar.

Nothing new I guess. It took a while for Burton and Sutton to be "in the in" from what I've heard. Weren't they a couple of "outsidaz", too?
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 17, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
Ben -- I can be to the ditch in a hour and a half, any day... At 18 nights on a route, I think Pete and Tom are lookin' to set up reseidence there, however! So September could probably work!

Housekeeping gathering happening in Sept?
Ben Rumsen

Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
Jul 17, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
You guessed right - email me!!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 17, 2006 - 04:07pm PT
426:
Burton and Sutton waltzing in and doing the Magic Mushroom?
I knew it shook things up a bit.
That was before my time.

I gotta think that was light years different from this historical fiasco; not that you are saying it was really similar. In fact the Mushroom and Burton and Sutton in general make me smile, while this Wings of Steel experience is clearly a mess for all involved and as well for those watching. And I mean the whole thing, I'm not making a jab at the FA guys.

Good Luck with this thing all!
Tarbuster Out.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 18, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
Helpin' nature out bump.

Odd that as the actual facts come out this topic gets a little more quiet. Almost like folks want it forgotten or something, before the truth comes out. I, personally, think it's very interesting...
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Jul 18, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
Odd that as the actual facts come out this topic gets a little more quiet. Almost like folks want it forgotten or something, before the truth comes out. I, personally, think it's very interesting...

I noticed that too. But who wants to be the doofus who posts up some really stupid stuff in the midst of a rather sensitive subject and potentially historic presentation of related facts?

That would be me.

I'm checking back here all the time to see what PTPP has to convey in regards to WoS. And I'm also looking forward to someone stepping up and doing WoS after all of these years.

Who was on Rob Slater's team that got five or six pitches up in the 1980's? Are any of those guys still around? I'd like to hear from them, too. I'd also like to hear from 'Mr. Poop on Command' [Mr. PoC] because I'd like to ask him [her?] some questions.




aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Jul 18, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
I'm interested in Petes' new approach to aid climbing...think he called it "headpoint aid". More grist for the mill....heard that there was some "ahem" route erasure going on after the FA ????
darod

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Jul 18, 2006 - 05:33pm PT
EDITED.

I'm also waiting for Pete's report, and the only reason why I don't post on this topic anymore, is because it doesn't belong here, period.

Pete will start the appropiate topic when he gets his sh#t together, i'm sure.

darod
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 18, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
There was certainly route erasure going on after the FA. A few SAMs, as I think locker called it in another thread (Self Appointed Moderators), chopped the first 2 pitches of the route at night and shat on the ropes and gear. Now the fact that they couldn't, even in the dark, no matter how drunk they were, separate reality from their ego trip enough to figure out that the route wasn't/isn't overbolted is interesting, as this was certainly the so-called main reason for the smear campaign to have begun.

Maybe it had more to do with Nipsey's (see PTPP's post above) squealing and shriveled bollocks on the route? Or the fact that other "great" climbers had attempted the slab and failed? Maybe the fact that the route has seen many attempts, period, and not yet been repeated? Then again, maybe it's all as simple as it's turning out to be and it is simply all just a lie.

Then again, if you're talking about "did Mark and Richard" erase the route as they climbed? Ummm... No. That would be a new one. One I've never heard. I've heard of Harding being accused of such, but not these guys on WoS. I can personally tell you, from my own sight that this isn't the case for the first pitch, or the crux of the route. When they fixed the pitch, they actually did so in such a way that you can't even see the old holes from the chopping. To do so any higher... Well, why? They'd already done much harder climbing on the crux.

Edited to remove my dumb mistake...

Darod -- As far as the topic not belonging here, well, I beg to differ with you, as you're flat wrong. For one, I was every bit involved with the WoS SA from beginning to end, as Pete, so I have plenty of vested interest in it. Second, this is all a part of the process. Use your head for a second to realize that there won't be any TR, be it Pete's, mine, or anyone else, without an open topic where people can ask questions, answer them, etc... More than anything, I am a member of the climbing community and want the truth that's been hidden for so long. So let's not try the hijack tactic of making this go away, as it's not going to.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jul 18, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
Pete wrote:

Some of you here have been libelled on the internet, and know how that feels. I'm one of them. A few years ago a single disturbed individual used no fewer than nine fake user names to perpetuate lies about me. One "person" wrote something, then the "others" backed up the lie.


Knott to get too far off topic, but there were actually at least two Internet Bitch Cowards™ obsessed with you,
one of whom also had a rather persistant fascination with me, most likely due to unrequited gay fantasies...
darod

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:00pm PT
Nefarious? WTF?

I edited my previous reply to this topic becuase I was reacting to ALDUDE's question about "erasure". It wasn't me who ask.

I'm also a member of this community and really want the names of Mark and Richard cleaned of doubt for good, and more hopefully, as their reputations, and credibility were sh#t on, all these years.

Just chill, and get YOUR stuff together.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:07pm PT
Sorry, darod... Up too many hours. For some reason thought you'd asked about the route erasure and then removed. My mistake. My feelings still remain as to the topic not belonging here though, as that would be rather counter productive.

Again, I apologize. It's easy to get worked up and make mistakes when wading thorugh this topic.

Cheers!
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
I think many of us, while we may have opinions, are quite ignorant on all of the facts and are awaiting PTPP's post to kick things off. Although if I can make it to my storage unit I may copy some stuff that was printed in the old rags of the day. Anyone have those? I think I do. In terms of print there aint much else. I hate to assume that since it was in the rags it was correct but there was some stuff written up about this back in the day.

On a different note. Sounds like the ropes were fixed when the choppers/shitters did their deed? Otherwise they would have had to climb it? Then they would have known about the route. Anyone who would jugg the ropes and do that without actually climbing the route is a chickensh#t.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:14pm PT
Yes, golsen, the ropes were fixed. Mark and Richard thought it was pretty chickensh*t too... What else could the choppers do though? Climbing the route wasn't an option for them.

Your printed stuff would be really swell! I'd certainly like copies of anything you have, as I'm sure Pete would! Feel free to email me offline, if you'd like.
darod

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
No worries. But don't worry about "bumbing" this topic, there're a few Supertopians that, including me and you, want this truth to come out, and won't let this subject go away.

Cheers,

darod.
aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
To clarify the erasure rumor.....I believe it was features (micro-flakes,bathook holes ect..) that were the target - not rivets....hummmm?
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jul 18, 2006 - 06:56pm PT
Ahhhh... I know there was something to this effect on SummitPost recently. However, my take, as well as was both Richard and Mark's, was that nothing was erased. The route is simply that hard. You really just have to go to the base of the route, look at it and understand that they really did climb that stuff to "get it". I was lucky in that I was there to have Richard and Mark show us what they were hooking on. I stood on ladders on the placements. Previously, I'd have thought it a blank, unclimable face. It's pretty severe. I certainly wasn't game to climb it!
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 18, 2006 - 07:54pm PT
The slab is so blank, the only way to climb it would be a rivet ladder.

Mark and Richard climbed the slab.

Well, then. There you go. The route must be a rivet ladder!

If you stand at the base, you can see that there is no rivet ladder.

Well, they must have chopped it.

They didn't chop any of the bolts or rivets.

Then, where is the rivet ladder?

There never was a rivet ladder.

Oh, I thought you said Mark and Richard climbed the slab...

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