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Messages 1 - 126 of total 126 in this topic
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Say it ain't so...that's bureaucratic BS dude.

You've let me live vicariously through your lens for years.

Utter bullsh#t.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
F*#KEM TOM

I expected this

It's been a good run.

They were lucky to have you.

It will be hard for you to get around the non volunteer camping limits I suspect.

That will be the next stage of bs.

Gotta be a way for one of climbings greatest journalists to do his job.

Best luck .. go to the top. Have a better attitude than we do though...lol
Fish Finder

Social climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:51pm PT



The artistic sh#t if there is any

Is all you and owned by you exclusively

Unless you contracted that it is theirs

Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Aug 11, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
WTF OVER? That's a big pile, Man. Sorry to see you go.
QITNL

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
From Tom's post:

"The National Park Service, (NPS) now says that as a volunteer, all my photos, writings, blogs, artistic renderings, etc. that were done using information gathered while volunteering at the Bridge, are now exclusively the property of the NPS and I have no rights to any of my own work."

That's absolutely preposterous! Is that some kind of joke? I'm willing to send a letter or two to protest this - and I could ask a few other folks.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Lawyer!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
No need for a lawyer unless they give you notice to cease and desist or attempt to take your property.

You ARE a Journalist.

Again dinner with the headman would be my approach to resolving such a minor petty issue that serves the interest of the NPS.

FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Sad day -- glad to hear you are going to keep shooting & posting.

Thanks for all you do.
Ian Jewell

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Tom Evans has applied for, and is expected to accept , a position as a SanJan at housekeeping camp. he will be cleaning toilets and emptying trashcans on the graveyard shift .

He will be living in Boystown , his roommate will be a 23 year old bipolar headbanger who is into World Of Warcraft , and has a ferret .

the roommate's name will be Jordan.

Jordan will eventually end up as the food and beverage manager for all of Curry Village, but that won't happen til the season after next.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
This is a dang shame.

OUR service is a bit too heavy-handed in a lot of things they do for US.

Thanks for volunteering your valuable expertise and canny lenscraft, man.

I only wish you the best hereafter.

See ya at the Bridge, El Capitano.

stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
That's crap Tom. I've vicariously lived a lot of El Cap action through your lens and blogs. It would be one thing if they were paying you. But as a volunteer, they are getting a whole lot of positive publicity from you. Damn bureaucrats can't see the obvious.
I hope that there can still be some resolution. I'm sure I speak for a lot of folks on this site that we will help any way you need.

--Steve
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Fight the power!

Have they tried to seize your property yet?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 11, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
at a time when volunteerism seemed to be gaining interest among the climbers, we have Roger Brown being told he was no longer of service in the Valley and now Tom having to agree to conditions which are not at all agreeable.

It would seem that the NPS, at least at Yosemite, should try to figure out just what kind of an organization it wants to be, and how they could collaborate with a constituency which has an intimate connection with the place.

Climbers are not just tourists, at least not the climbers I know... and this strict interpretation of "the rules" will only inhibit more cooperation. The park could use much more cooperation, and on mutually beneficial terms.

Thanks to you Tom for all you've done both for the climbers you've shot, and for educating the public about what we do. You've been there for many climbers in their time of need too, I'm sure that fact was most welcome in all cases.

WTF

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Now you can drink at work again. ;) Sorry but I see this as a blessing for Tom

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Thanks Tom.

Hope all goes well in the future.

ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
It would be one thing if they were paying you.

The Ask a Climber program does pay. Pretty well, too. When I did it I got $125 per day, for five hours... $25 per hour isn't bad for sharing your passion with tourists.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
What bored low-life pushed this choice on you? Sheesh.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Yup Russ, I meant five hours... fixed it.
QITNL

climber
Aug 11, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
If you say let it go, Tom, I respect that. You certainly built a tremendous body of work. Best luck with your next projects.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 11, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
I think you should share the NPS copyright conditions with the Travel and Outdoor Photographer's Alliance, that pays close attention to these issues

http://www.t-o-p-a.com/

Hope to see you around

Baba
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:26am PT
I've got a couple of questions.

First: Did you give yourself the "Captain Tom" nickname? Because I've never heard anyone call you that and you know the rules, you can't give YOURSELF a nickname.

Second: Why tell us to let it go after posting the details of why you won't be working the Ask a Climber program? I don't get it... ha haa. You know how riled we can get.

You're the man, Tom. Thanks for all the killer shots! Hope to see you around many years to come.

OOUUAAAAHHHHH!!!
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Ammon, IIRC, Tom was a Captain in the Army and a pilot. ;)
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:32am PT
The real question is now that he is not associated with NPS, how long until he gets tooled for being a "commercial" photographer?
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:32am PT
I know Paul, just razzing a friend.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:34am PT
The real question is now that he is not associated with NPS, how long until he gets tooled for being a "commercial" photographer?

Um, that already happened more than a decade ago. Tom has never asked me or anyone else (I know of) for money. We donate to his cause.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:42am PT
Sorry to hear it Tom. Nothing new really, the tool is the tool is the tool. Faces under the flathat change, but the endless BS never does.


Ed wrote:
we have Roger Brown being told he was no longer of service in the Valley

Really? WTF? Talk about selfless giving back to the community. Roger is THE MAN.

ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:33am PT
Nice Tom!

Yup, I was only out of the game for about three month's before climbing and jumping again.

Thanks for everything you do! I have one of your photos of Kait and I hanging on the wall, here at the house. Like I said, just razzing a friend and it felt like I was on the bridge saying the above, all good mate... virtual bridge spray.

"Bask in the glory!"

Yarrrr!
Fig's Lady

Social climber
Bishop, CA and Tucson Arizona
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:39am PT
I think he should have a peak named after him.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Hey Tommy,

Congratulations on your promotion! You have now been elevated to the status of Independent Dirtbag.

No longer do you need to account to anyone for anything. From what I can tell, it will be business as usual.

See you soon, buddy. I'm still looking for partner[s] for the fall wall season, so please keep your eyes open for me, eh?
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I think he should have a peak named after him.

Or, at least a feature on El Cap ;)
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Did you give yourself the "Captain Tom" nickname? Because I've never heard anyone call you that and you know the rules, you can't give YOURSELF a nickname.

by the powerf's vested in me
as the villiage space cadet,

i hereby grant tom the
fitting and appropriate
handle,

Major Tom.
(he's also ground control)


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Sorry to hear of this. Ive been living vicariously through Toms photo documentation. I dont know why the NPS would bite the hand that feeds them like this. Im sure it was a brain child of some over educated under experienced type that is only there as a ladder rung to higher positions. Wanna bet im close!?

Perhaps,, right here,, we could organize a petition.? "The Bridge" served THEM well. It seems rather odd that they would try to nickel and dime Tom like this.. Truly strange.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
"The National Park Service, (NPS) now says that as a volunteer, all my photos, writings, blogs, artistic renderings, etc. that were done using information gathered while volunteering at the Bridge, are now exclusively the property of the NPS and I have no rights to any of my own work."

It's a good thing that you gathered all that info before and after your shift. ;-)

I'm glad you gave up the nps gig instead of your calling making the El Cap report!

As always a respectful reporting of the events. Bravo!
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
I laughed out loud at Ian's post near the top. Perfect description of valley employment 30 years back.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
So we all have to turn over our Facelift photos?

So actually, I believe the issue is the right to sell or otherwise monetize the photos. Not that Tom has to stop taking them or publishing them for free.

The National Park Service, (NPS) now says that as a volunteer, all my photos, writings, blogs, artistic renderings, etc. that were done using information gathered while volunteering at the Bridge, are now exclusively the property of the NPS and I have no rights to any of my own work.

Tom, any clarification on this? Do you have to turn everything over? Is this ex post facto or from now on?
Johnny K.

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
The NPS really told Roger Brown he is not a service to Yosemite valley??? O_O

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Well, you don't get to be a Nat Park Superintendent by being smart or,
necessarily, a good person. The Peter Principle when applied to guvmint
organisations is more aptly termed The Peter Principal.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
It would seem that the NPS, at least at Yosemite, should try to figure out just what kind of an organization it wants to be, and how they could collaborate with a constituency which has an intimate connection with the place.

Ed, it would appear its brass has already done so. This is such a shame, because almost all of NPS Yosemite employees I know are wonderful people, and many contribute greatly to this forum.

I, too, appreciate your letting us know the situation, and your willingness to continue providing us your matchless photos, Tom. Thanks much.

John
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Good on you Capt Tom. I'm putting you in for a promotion to Major now. You're a lot more gracious than me though, those faceless souless POS valley PROFESSIONAL scumsuckers sucking off the public tit can kiss my ass.

Hopefully as a private citizen you are not hassled for doing your thing, which is so kind and interesting for so many.

Thank you
Ian Jewell

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
FACT : FREE CHONGO !!!!!! ( master of counter surveillance )




Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
The NPS action does not stand the test of basic reason and fairness and therefore is particularly repugnant; really just sort of a trick that jailers would play. Obviously we will not get the full tale from anyone, especially here.

Who would have foreseen this petty policy erupting into action today? There have to be ulterior reasons for this new tack. Like breaking up the Bridge scene and all that it usually entails during big days on El Cap. And the Master Plan is about to change the EC Meadow as well and its use very different in the near future.

Anyway Neubacher has never shown particular grace or wisdom whilst at the helm. Just look at his Oyster Farm Debacle at Point Reyes National? And the ever-loving foot-dragging and evident lip service over returning Camp Four to some vague state of decency and to its original planned size, especially for our myriad international visitors. Now decades running.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Aug 12, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Hey folks, I really appreciate your support but I am not trying to cause a fight here. I just wanted to let people know why I have elected to quit rather than submit. It is like any job... when you are given the conditions for employment you have a choice... agree and work ... or disagree and don't. I am perfectly happy to make that choice

You are such a class act, Tom ... and talented beyond belief.

I look forward to continuing to follow your work.
Your blog kind of makes my day!


~peace to you and your future endeavors!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Quite sad that they bite the hand that feeds them. Are they going to REPLACE TOM with someone else at the bridge? Someone with lenses as HUGE as Toms?? With his knowledge and history? His Character and "eye for the shot"? He even helps on rescues and such ... Totally illogical.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Are they going to REPLACE TOM with someone else at the bridge?

Looks to me like they already did:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2200282/Who-is-working-at-the-El-Cap-bridge


"Iím Erik Sloan, and Iím working this year with the YCA/NPS on the Ask a Climber Program"
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
Yo.. I am 100% behind Erik as I have worked with him and he knows what to say and do for the Tourons. He is a good friend and I wish him and his son the very best.
schwortz

Social climber
"close to everything = not at anything", ca
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
thanks tom

ed's comments seemed most appropriate:
at a time when volunteerism seemed to be gaining interest among the climbers, we have Roger Brown being told he was no longer of service in the Valley and now Tom having to agree to conditions which are not at all agreeable.

It would seem that the NPS, at least at Yosemite, should try to figure out just what kind of an organization it wants to be, and how they could collaborate with a constituency which has an intimate connection with the place.

Climbers are not just tourists, at least not the climbers I know... and this strict interpretation of "the rules" will only inhibit more cooperation. The park could use much more cooperation, and on mutually beneficial terms.

Thanks to you Tom for all you've done both for the climbers you've shot, and for educating the public about what we do. You've been there for many climbers in their time of need too, I'm sure that fact was most welcome in all cases.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
yes but is his lense as HUGE as yurs Tom!? And thanks for the info Elcap.

And sooo if Tom is still there shooting, will he have a larger crowd than the new guy? Just wonderin..
Offset

climber
seattle
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Tom -

thanks for giving the facts up front. Happy to hear you'll still be around and on the bridge.

enjoy the rest of your summer cuz you're gunna d1e!!
b.bob
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
really sorry to see this. i will look for ya in september!
all the best

scott
BJ

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
http://www.nps.gov/museum/publications/MHIII/Jan07LegalIssues.pdf

May not be applicable, but if it is there are two possible conclusions here:
1) Tom does in fact control the copyright, and as such, can do what he wants

2) The material in question is not covered by a copyright, and anybody, including Tom, can do what they want when they want
Matt Thomsen

Big Wall climber
Places
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
The United States Army can give him the title of Captain, with all the responsibilities that come with that. But the United States NPS can not give him the title of volunteer... Crazy!

Can wait to see you soon Tom!
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Yo Matt, it's been a long time. Hope to catch up with you again soon.

I really don't get this whole volunteer thing. It's a job and the "Ask a Climber" PAYS for the work of informing the tourists about climbing El Cap. Don't get me wrong, I think it's BS that the NPS is trying to commandeer Tom's work.

But, on the other hand, he is on the clock... maybe it's their way of saying it's a conflict of interest with the job he is supposed to be focusing on.

Nothing has really changed, lots of people fill in on the summer months while Tom's not around: Nanook, D. Turner, I even got a few weeks in, a few years ago.

Now Tom can continue like many years previous before the "Ask a Climber" program was around. At any rate, he has proven his talent, passion and generosity to the climbing community.

Yeah Norwegian, I vote him "Major Tom", from here on out.

Cheers!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Ron - Erik Sloan / Nanook is like, hardly the "new guy", eh? (Wink)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
You guys do remember what happened to Maj Tom, right?

Hey Tom, stay off them space capsules, it's a one way ride! Tom? Tom? Can you hear me Maj Tom?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
When Capt. Evans was hired, did the NPS not know what he was doing at the bridge? Did they expect him to case the camera while he was "on the clock", or what?
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
Haa haa, good one "inyoazz".
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Can I pay someone not to take my photograph?

Yes and I do accept Paypal.
sullly

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
This is ground control to major Tom, you've really made the grade
And the papers want to know whose shirts you wear
Now it's time to leave the capsule if you dare
Michelle Gill

climber
Redding, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:48am PT
This is ground control to major Tom, you've really made the grade
And the papers want to know whose shirts you wear
Now it's time to leave the capsule if you dare

This really brought tears to my eyes. Love your work Tom.
feralfae

Boulder climber
Montana
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Major Tom,
You will find creative and highly amusing ways to avoid and work around the impositions of the park nazis.

Keep on living your own life your own way. Avoid confrontations if you can. Live free, have fun, enjoy life. For those stuck in the ruts of desperation and despair, let them work out their own karma: you are here to enjoy life and live free.

Doug would have pages to write about this. ALl I can say is, follow your heart, and never give up.

Thank you for all you do for climbing!
Best of everything to you,
feralfae
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Stick-It-To-Da-Man!!!


Keep up the good work in whatever way you can Tom!!
FrankZappa

Trad climber
Hankster's crew
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Gawd, I can already picture the TOOL approaching Tom at the bridge this fall, "Soooo where are you camping tonight? How long will you be camping there? Mind if I look around in your van?"

If anyone can keep this from going bad, it's Tom, but the TOOL is showing their bad side here, and I hate to see that bad go worse...
CF

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
"The National Park Service, (NPS) now says that as a volunteer, all my photos, writings, blogs, artistic renderings, etc. that were done using information gathered while volunteering at the Bridge, are now exclusively the property of the NPS and I have no rights to any of my own work."

So this means that all the volunteer photographers, painters, indian basket weavers etc have to give all their photos, paintings, baskets to NPS?

Not sure if Julia Parker is a volunteer but if she is, she will not be very happy with this decision.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
I guess Ansel Adams family will now pay too? And every tourist that snaps a shot now forwards it to NPS?



edit: Wouldt it be funny,, if about a hunert climbers with huge lens cameras descended upon the bridge one day?
CF

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
ElCrap, halfdumm and the falls are all copywrited by the government of the park. They OWN the publishing rights of any image they have not authorized to be published. They could stop anybody from making recordings of any kind for commercial purposes.

i do not think nps has the copyright on public features if they are used for non commercial purposes. any person can paint, take photos, video etc as long as they are not used for commercial endeavors
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
is posting to an internet forum considered "commercial use"..?
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
I like what ElCapPirate said. It is a shame to lose such valuable assets (Roger and Tom) but Yosemite Valley in particular is run more bureaucratically then most parks because of it's status in the NPS system. Nuebacher did some good things in his time at Point Reyes as I was a volunteer there and likewise there are some really good people working in the GGNRA who are great examples of what a government employee can be and what can be accomplished. I've been working with Roger and Clint in TM and have been thinking of ways to get Roger a way to be able to stay in the park. One of the ways was to approach the ASCA or other official non-profit to approach Nuebacher with proposals that work within the context of the bureaucracy. In talking with Roger, he just didn't want to deal with it but isn't against having someone try to help with the red tape.
Roger doesn't get paid anything and puts his own money in (Gas, camping etc.) Times change as more and more rules and BS come down the line but It may be worth a try to get something established otherwise there is no counterpoint.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
I saw this too late for the original post, but it doesnt sound right. One of the basic principles of contract law is consideration. Did you get something in exchange for the rights to your pictures? Second question: do you have a written contract with the NPS? What does it say about intellectual property? Third question, as someone mentioned, is do you charge money for your photos? If not then its not commercial use and may be protected by the first amendment. I'd be glad to help but I am not licensed in CA so you need a CA attorney, also one who knows about copyright law. Find a small time lawyer with some experience in this, have him research it and write you an opinion letter, maybe pay a thousand dollars, maybe two. If you are right, then you write the NPS a letter saying they're your photos. A second question is, can they keep you out of the park or stop you from taking photos, because of this dispute? That would be retaliatory and probably illegal and grounds for a lawsuit.

This all goes to prove the same argument I make over and over here, we should all encourage our congress to cut the NPS budget as much as possible, and let the forest service or blm manage them.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
I must be missing something here ...

All that Tom said is that he can't "work" for the NPS or Yosemite Conservatory and take pictures at the same time. That doesn't seem out of line to me. If I was "employing" Tom to talk to visitors then I wouldn't want him spending time taking photos.

Even if it is a position that he is receiving no paycheck, he might be getting other benefits, such as accommodation, otherwise he would be running into the one or two week limitation.

I suspect that Tom will be back there in a few weeks taking photos and all of this will be no big deal.

I really appreciate your work Tom!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
When Capt. Evans was hired, did the NPS not know what he was doing at the bridge?

That is another legal argument in contract law, called 'course of performance'. If something isnt written in a contract, but both parties seem to agree to it based on their conduct, then it can become part of a contract. ie, you have a contract that doesn't say who owns the pictures, but you've been publishing them for years and the publishing seems to be the whole point of it, then it can become an implied term in the contract.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Third question, as someone mentioned, is do you charge money for your photos?

Don, as far as I know Tom has never asked for a single penny for his photos. He gives them away for free, a VERY generous offer being his photos are unique and without his equipment, impossible to get... without a helicopter.

If you want to donate to his cause, then that is a gift back to him for continuing support to the climbing community.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
I dont know if that counts as commercial or not, still there is money involved. What started all this anyway? Is it about closing El Cap Meadows? Or maybe someone wasnt allowed to have their own commericial concession and asked them why Tom was allowed to take pictures? Did this just come out of the blue?
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Well, as much as this sucks, years ago, Tom used sell photos to tourons at the parking area for Zodiac. The NPS shut it down. Since then, I have not heard of him making money for profit off this.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 13, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
That's correct, Robert. I mentioned that up thread.

Don, I'm sure this stemmed from his El Cap Report blog.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Back to dirtbag Sumpremo #1 for YU! Get a wig and other disguises- sniper suits even! - pick secluded spots where only the cool folks would go. Youll become like BIGFOOT, the "legend" grows..
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Regarding your long post. It's not mundane. You really are an important part of this tribes history.

CYA soon I hope. Keep holding down the fort
QITNL

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Bummer. I was kinda guessing they had presented you with a new contract which specified your photography as work-for-hire. Without that verbiage and your signature, the copyright is all yours. Agreeing to that would be dumb - unless they offered you lots & lots of money. Hope you can work out some camping options. Stay freelance and carry on.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Tom, i could smell upper echelon politics at play here, you were scape goated over that press leak from the area sup to the region sup or something CLOSE in the ladder rung. Plain and simple. So they throw a BLANKET CYA on you ,, their YA,, not yours..
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
A pox on all bureaucracies. The Park Service couldn't organize a one car funeral procession.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
Thanks for the post, Tom. Sorry it went down like that.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
Thanks for the explanation.

Good luck Tom.
Offset

climber
seattle
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
what.. they wouldn't let you be an asset AND and a$#%ole???

adikted

Boulder climber
Tahooooeeeee
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
Tom

Thanks for everything you do..i one day would love to see myself and my friends onthe report... Your photos are inspiring and words poetic.... Thanks again

Greg carlisle
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Hey Tom,

Passing along a message from "Fattrad", he said:

"I talked to Tollefson and more discussions with Tom, NPS, and Ken will happen. Ten minute chat, told him Tom was best for bridge, background of VMI/school teacher. Also gave Ken briefing of Tollefson chat"


Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
From Fattrad; "Jay, post on the evans thread that i spoke with mike tollefson, more discussion to come about photo ownership and tom's continued service"
Radish

Trad climber
SeKi, California
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Your a major asset to the climbing community Tom and your pics will stand the test of time! Will you go back and do it again if they make it right?? We hope so. I have totally enjoyed reading your humour and seeing all the teams on the captain! It won't be a Bigwall season without you. Thanks for ALL you have done!
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Hey Tom,
Having volunteer status is nice, but being a free man is nicer
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Well, sorry the bureaucracy had to go and muck things up as usual.

Sounds like you made a reasonable decision Tom. Give it some time.. They'll probably get a zillion complaints from the seasonal tourons who like having you there. You never know.. they may come around with a new contract at some point.

Good luck and hope to see you soon.
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
Having volunteer status is nice, but being a free man is nicer

Like an old friend, from Mexico City, used to say;

Even if your cage is golden. . . it is still a cage!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
Capt Evans writes:

"I asked what the problem wasÖ they replied that they didnít really know. I ask what words were considered inappropriate? They didnít know. I asked what I could do to fix the problem. They didnít know that either."



Those people should be fired! And right now, too. We can get by just fine without them.

You don't tell someone he's out of line, without letting him know the correct way something should be done.

Even as a peon dishwasher when I was 14, I knew better than to complain to the Boss without at the same time offering up a workable solution to whatever problem I was concerned about.

What a total and complete waste of government resources.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Total bad on NPS Chief Ranger
Pansy/sissy maneuver by the chief dic. Couldn't leave well enough alone. While being a second to Chongo is, to me at least, kind of a badge of honor, I can understand your moving away from the ask the climber program and the NPS.

Nothing stopping you from just showing up and taking photos for the world to see, but also see how that could send up being an expensive move as well.

Here's hoping the report lives on and I see you at the bridge again
gf

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Tom,
It would seem that you are now back in a position that the dude can abide-just be careful of the beverage. man.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
I just checked, and I have photos of National Parks, and they're FOR SALE, too. ( check with Getty Images, if you have any extra cash burning holes in your pockets )

I have NEVER gotten a permit for commercial photography, mainly because I'm not a good enough photographer to actually compose a shot. I just take hundreds of pictures, and weed out all but maybe a couple to keep. Once in a Blue Moon, one sells. I'm sure as hell not going to go apply for a permit to cover something I already did.

I was under the understanding that the Parks belong to all of us ( so long as your taxes are paid up ), and that I don't need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock any more than I need a permit to sell shots of my own house.

If NPS wants my photos, they'll have to come get them in person, and then they'll have to deal with Getty.

fat-n-sassy

Social climber
San Francity, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Tom,

I love the report and your photos. Thank you for your hard work and dedication.

You may use my name to register at camp 4 whenever you like.

fat 'n' sass
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Who here has not been Alias Smith And Jones, to stay a few extra weeks at Camp 4 ? It's not like you're trying to avoid paying.
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Aug 14, 2013 - 12:39am PT
central latitudes PO wall
central latitudes PO wall
Credit: T2

This is a Major Tom photo from when he was still shooting actual film back in 97' I believe. I got two rolls of kodachrome from a friend who Tom gave them to when the connection was made. Those were the first El Cap photos I have ever had from that perspective and angle from the meadow or the bridge, I was so stoked to see those slides.

Thanks Tom I have a small library of ascents from 16 years back from you.
Onewhowalksonrocks

Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:47am PT
Well I for one thought this ASK a Climber Program wasn't good for climbers in the long run. For all the work done to live under the radar this program focused and publicized our style of living. Which as some of you may know the NPS, Joe public and DNC just don't get it or like it.

So, sorry for Tom that something he enjoyed doing has now caused him some pain.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 14, 2013 - 07:44am PT
Sheesh....when will our government figure out that you can't build a better mousetrap.

So glad you are a man of principle.....kudos!

We can hear you, Major Tom.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:17am PT
So you can still do the El Cap report but don't have to deal with tourists and ďAsk A ClimberĒ program?

Sounds like a good deal all around, you don't have to answer questions and can focus more on your photos.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Uh.. let's get real Goat.. the tourons are still going to ask questions and want to look through the camera..it's as inevitable as the sunrise. I suspect Tom will simply go back to being a nice guy for no pay or benefits.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Sure would be interesting to hear or read the chief ranger's principle complaints. I wonder how closely the real reasons align with my guesses....

DMT
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:04am PT
National Parks are ghettos for "nature" and "wilderness."

We should consider ourselves lucky to be able to climb in them at all.

I, for one, prefer to climb outside of them,

which is not difficult to do these days seeing as I live in China :p
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:15am PT
Sounds like everything is for the best. I dont see any reason not to put the photos back online, or any argument that they belong to the NPS. Need to find a way to stay there legally though. I often find myself in situations where it would be easier to just ignore the law, but if you do that you have no legal rights, you're defenseless. Also we need to organize to slash the NPS budget as much as possible. It sounds to me like they have too many layers of useless bureaucrats who have nothing better to do than get into petty personal disputes with park visitors.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:33am PT
Chaz posted
I have NEVER gotten a permit for commercial photography, mainly because I'm not a good enough photographer to actually compose a shot. I just take hundreds of pictures, and weed out all but maybe a couple to keep. Once in a Blue Moon, one sells. I'm sure as hell not going to go apply for a permit to cover something I already did.

I was under the understanding that the Parks belong to all of us ( so long as your taxes are paid up ), and that I don't need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock any more than I need a permit to sell shots of my own house.

They do belong to all of us which is why someone needs to pay the rest of us to profit off of them. Legally speaking, you do need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock, which is not in fact your personal property.

The idea that the pictures "belong" to the NPS seems absurd and I'm not clear on their argument there but the privilege to profit off of them is certainly as licensable and the privilege to guide, forest or mine them.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:37am PT
That is fairly ridiculous. It's one thing if a professional photographer or movie production comes in and want to film. I'm fine with the permit system required for those types of commercial endeavors.

For the average individual photographer who from time to time "might" sell a photo or make a youtube video it is not right to expect or require them do anymore than the average park visitor.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:30am PT
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement

Aug 14, 2013 - 06:26am PT
Uh.. let's get real Goat.. the tourons are still going to ask questions and want to look through the camera..it's as inevitable as the sunrise. I suspect Tom will simply go back to being a nice guy for no pay or benefits.

Friends with benefits?
Win Win!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
Wow! You even made it higher on the pyramid than Ammon??? That's sayin' something. ;)

So what about negotiation?

You print out a copy of the offer for a contract that they gave you. You grab a red pen, you scratch out what you don't like, and write in your suggestion of what to change and how. You initial the changes.

Then you return the contract to the powers that be and wait to see what they accept and don't accept.

You send the paper back and forth for a few iterations, you both give and take a bit, and then in the end you come up with something that is workable.

Have you tried this? If so, how did it work out? And if not, why not?

See you in a few weeks, eh?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Legally speaking, you do need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock, which is not in fact your personal property.

I'm no legal scholar but I thought that we, the people, owned our federal
lands in common. I mean, it is guvmint of the people, by the people, and
for the people, right? Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha! Now I'm going to go have a gud cry.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
HDDJ say:

the privilege to profit off of them

Here's where it gets sticky bro. "Profit" isn't achieved until the expenses to produce are covered. Now we could easily argue that Tom is in fact a non-profit producing enterprise.

Do we really think he has covered the costs of all that high end camera and scope gear via sales? How about his transportation costs, lodging, food, while taking the shots? Legit biz expenses. Then there are all the years of experimenting with educating himself on how/when etc to get good shots at that location. And on and on.

So to say he is "profiting" is comical at best. What say ye, Mr. DJ?
BJ

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
HighDesertDJ said:
They do belong to all of us which is why someone needs to pay the rest of us to profit off of them. Legally speaking, you do need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock, which is not in fact your personal property.

Which is completely wrong.
http://www.nps.gov/applications/digest/permits.cfm
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
That's interesting. Of course you own the rights to your own photos. Movie stars have a 'right of publicity' but that's not applicable here. On the other hand the NPS can apparently require you to get a permit to take pictures in some limited circumstances (previous post). Take a look at it and tell me how this applies to Tom:


Still photographers require a permit when

1. the activity takes place at location(s) where or when members of the public are generally not allowed; or

2. the activity uses model(s), sets(s), or prop(s) that are not a part of the locationís natural or cultural resources or administrative facilities; or

3. Park would incur additional administrative costs to monitor the activity.


As long as they don't close the meadow, it doesn't seem that Tom even needs a permit.
BJ

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Arguably, there could be administrative cost because of the hangers-on (out). Many hang out in the meadows with tele-scopes, and Tom would not be unusual there, and the NPS could not have an issue
ag.Fox

Trad climber
Reno, NV
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
.... this Dude couldnít abide!!

You know...that bridge really tied the whole valley together man :-0
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
hey there say, tom... thanks for sharing...

i will go read your link...

wow, we will miss you... :(

just seeing and known that you are sharing folks, and pic, from up
there, always keeps me on my toes, to pray more for all those folks,
as, i can forget sometimes that a climb may be going on, being that there is NO ROCK-LAND or climbing going on here, to keep me alert, and--i now you
have blessed so many more folks, in even stronger ways--letting them see their family or loved ones, up there, enjoying what they do... :)


edit:
read your link... very nice share, tom...

did not know a lot of that stuff, etc...

also, wow, then, we WON'T miss you? you will take private-shots
while just visiting, and share on your web... that will be nice...

god bless... every new BEND in the road, leads to new adventures, :)
sometimes, we just need to BENDABLE, :)
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka Muthaf*#ka
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
So does Dean Fidelman get permits for his Stone Nudes photo sessions? From what I read on the link above is seems he would be required to.
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Will El Cap Meadow become closed as a result of the Merced River Management Plan?????
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
This is actually a no brainer for professional photographers. editorial work/news is a free for all. if it is on public property or you can see it from public property shoot away until the cops come, then get shots of them tazeing you. If it bleeds it leads;)
Commercial photography /advertisement. if it is a big enough production/client to be noticed you need permits in many public locations.

Event protography is what I do most www.nkgphoto.com and this seems to be what Tom does a lot of. shooting sports and posting the photos for sale on a webstore. I almost Never shoot without permission from the event. often i have a writen contract. in this case the park is the boss and you have to either be small/unsuccessfull enough to not be noticed or have permission from the management.
BJ

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:15am PT
in this case the park is the boss and you have to either be small/unsuccessfull enough to not be noticed or have permission from the management.

No you don't. Read the rules. No permit or fee's are required for commercial photography in NP's under most circumstances
WTF

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:22am PT
This is a lot to read through but in the interest of what's best for Tom we should all bring him a case of cold beer and help him ease into retirement.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
I'll always bring the beer.

Tom does what he does. He's as solid as people get.

Unique in all the world.

Of value. Like Yosemite.
cmcc

Trad climber
Redding, CA
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:04am PT
Tom, thanks for bring so much entertainment, education, history, and mostly inspiring the desire for adventure!

Over the years I have liked the idea of your partnership with the parks service... given me a happy thoughts... well... this garbage about claiming rights to your work seems to confirm my suspicion about the increasing arm of the government. Maybe my pictures are next... I did purchase a pass and who knows what rights I gave up in that transaction.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Keep up the radness.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:03am PT
So what now Tom,

Strengthen your pimp hand or a pow-wow with Chongo?
Ŗ ő ō T « H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:23am PT
The whole program is dumb. Why do tourists need to know anything about rock climbing?
Onewhowalksonrocks

Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:05am PT
Just saying.....

Don't tell... Don't say.

Simple

WTF...........Do you need the spot light................

Do something else. Slacking, bouldering and golfing where no one cares who you f*&#ed or how your f&*^ked

OK I really just wish this would go away so I could crush in the meadow again.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 15, 2013 - 06:42am PT
Event photography is a pretty much different from most other professional photography in that it is kind of like running a store in their front yard . as long as you do not solicit (hand out buisness cards) you would fly under the radar but as soon as you make enough of a presence so that management knows what you are doing they often get all pissy and think you are getting rich and they want a cut...
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