Free soloing

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Tahoe climber

Trad climber
Austin, TX to South LakeTahoe, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 11, 2006 - 08:18pm PT
Hi, I was wondering what some of your thoughts are towards free soloing in general.

My sort of overall take on it is that on a route well within your ability on high quality rock, it can be a great experience - pure, simple climbing with relatively little risk, since it's easy for you. Also great to develop your lead head.
I'm not drawn, however to free solo climbs near the top of my skill set - too much to lose, too much chance involved, too much risk - and not enough to gain.

I highly respect those that do, but that's not for me.

Thoughts?
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Jul 12, 2006 - 01:25am PT
I love soloing! It's my favorite thing in climbing. I solo almost every day.
I don't push it. I'm not Rad and I'm old. I only solo easy stuff. I rarely go above 5.8 and try not to do moves that I can't reverse.
Even on easy stuff, things can happen that are out of one's control. A few weeks ago I was on something and got swarmed by bees. I just stopped moving until they calmed down. I've run into snakes and chuckwallas in cracks. That's always exciting! Soloing in Joshua Tree in the summer, you can run into all kinds of scary creatures. Maybe it's better to just solo faces.
I like the feeling of being alone, not having to deal with anyone and not dealing with gear or anchors. It's FUN!
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Jul 12, 2006 - 07:08am PT
I solo everyday. Mostly class 1 stuff.

What is a chuckwalla?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 12, 2006 - 08:45am PT
Blitzo, what kind of snakes? Shudder.

Isn't chuckwalla a kind of lizard?
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Jul 12, 2006 - 10:09am PT
A chuckwalla is a large lizard. It hides in cracks and is able to inflate itself, so it can't be pried out of the crack.
Native Americans ate them. To get them out of the crack, they would take a sharpened stick and puncture the lizard. If they taste anything like rattlesnake, there good eatin'!
Sometimes they make hissing noises.


I've mostly only run into gopher snakes in cracks. They just want to get away from you.


In the mountains, I've run into mountain king snakes on climbs. They're beautiful and very docile. I like to pick them up and play with them.


One day I found this rattlesnake in a crack, but it wasn't up on a climb. I sat down next to it and tried to pry it out with a stick, so I could photograph him. He wouldn't have anything to do with me.


I moved back away from him and waited for him to come out, but he would just pop his head out and then go back in and hide.


I guess you could very well find a rattler in a crack up on a climb, but it hasn't happened to me, yet.

One time I was climbing down through a tunnel at the base of a climb in Indian Cove and a rattlesnake fell from above, right past my face, almost landing on my head. It landed at my feet. That was a rush!

I've run into a couple rattlesnakes on the approach to the Monastery in Colorado. Almost stepped on one. You've got to keep your eyes open there. The Prairie rattler is aggressive!

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 12, 2006 - 10:22am PT
I once came upon a snake at the top of the "stone groove" in the Valley, right up near the finish. He sped deeply into the crack.

Over near saddle rock in Joshua tree, I was descending from some of those upper cliffs with some clients, and I almost stepped on a darker brownish rattler. I swear I jumped up and backwards a good 2 to 3 feet.

Free solo?
You gotta be dead on positive it's the right thing to do at the time.
If you really want to lead trad and be versatile on all kinds of terrain up to hard 5.11, then consider how often you might be on some pretty darn run out 5.5 or 5.7. This will be exactly like free soloing only with a rack and a rope and you may wind up in this position in such a state of mind that you did not anticipated the risk. Suddenly or slowly as the case may be, you are there. This is why a certain comfort free soloing easy ground is something the trad leader really needs to practice. Then when on such a lead, you will have a cool head.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jul 12, 2006 - 10:48am PT
Hmmm, maybe Costner will do a sequel to "Dances with Wolves, calle,d "Climbs with Rattlers".


Talking about free soloing, free soloing threads, old, boring, dead horse, who cares, don't do it, do do it, Blah blah blah.

Tar-baby, I did a lead on 5.7/8ish once, wet runout NC slab, one piece of pro in 140 feet, that was useless after 70 feet. I really think you have the right idea about mind set for trad leads.

Snakes , huh? don't forget bees, hornets, wasps (put my fingers in a pocket once, felt paper (??) heard angry buzzing, jupmed back out and aroudn to hte side and held on, as three angry wasps came out looking for trouble, but they missed me. Was on lead on easy ground, still didn't want to get stung.

have had not one but two birds in sequence fly out of a crack and give me a startle, also on an easy lead.

A friend once fell off a 30 foot highball cause a bat flew out in his face.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Jul 12, 2006 - 10:54am PT
Are you talking multipitch thousand foot routes or single pitch Joshua Tree?

I am sure you are ready.

Go for it. If you are leading 10c start with say 5.9.

Its fun.

Juan
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Jul 12, 2006 - 10:57am PT
I've run into bats! One flew out of a crack and landed on Grant Hiskes' face for a moment, once.

I've run into lots of wasps, hornets and bees. I was doing Beckey's Corner in Little Cottonwood Canyon and I felt something under my fingers. I looked into the crack and it was loaded with wasps. It was kind of cold though and they wern't active, so I kept going.
burp

Trad climber
Salt Lake City
Jul 12, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
Blitzo,

A couple of decades ago on top of the thumb in Little Cottonwood, someone was attacked by a swarm of yellowjackets. He ended up falling of the thumb to his death.

Lots of wasps, hornets, and yellowjackets living in flakes and such in LLC.

burp
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Jul 12, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
Free soloing is an extremely stupid and dangerous activity. I personally would never do it....cheers, jb
Anastasia

Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
Jul 12, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
John, I almost fell out of my chair from laughing! That was classic.
AF


pyro

Trad climber
I think it's your __.
Jul 12, 2006 - 02:05pm PT
a few months ago I was walking around Hidden valley minding my own self. I came accross a free soloist ready to climb some rock structure. I felt soo scared. I was afraid to say hi because I was witness. "a game of rouletee". I didn't need the stressful thought of cleaning him up after the fall. I recommend soloing on your own time and away from innocent families too.
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Jul 12, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
What ever, John. You mean you would never free solo anything easy.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Jul 12, 2006 - 06:39pm PT
I was at Stoney last night and two Caltech Noob's nearly fell off Boulder 1. They are 20 feet up trying to figure out the exit moves to the Boot. Thrashing around, no style.

I backed away from the rock so I would not be hit.

Juan
G_Gnome

Social climber
Tendonitis City
Jul 12, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
Very funny John. I haven't seen that other blond guy you hang with lately, he hasn't fallen off anything and not told anyone has he?

Been to the knobs yet this year? I put lots of chalk up there for you last weekend.

And here is a proper chuckwalla we found soloing at New Jack City. He blends in rather well.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 12, 2006 - 07:33pm PT
All climbers free solo at some time or other. Leaving aside necessity, the motivations vary widely, and the perceived and actual risks and rewards are hard to assess. The perceptions of the person soloing may be quite different from those of a person watching, which in turn may be quite different from the actual situation. "Scrambling" in the mountains (free soloing, in other words), may involve loose, exposed, wet, dirty climbing - a high risk situation. Free soloing 5.10 may be much lower risk, for a seasoned veteran whose limit is 5.12. Even though to a non-climber it seems far more dangerous.

I've had more friends killed in avalanches than from all other causes combined. Backcountry skiing is popular in this corner of the world, and quite high risk.

All of us free solo on the approaches to and descents from climbs. Every climber pretty much has to, at times. Many solo known moderate routes. We sometimes solo moderate sections of harder routes. Whether we rationally assess the actual risks and rewards of this is another thing.

I have sometimes chosen to free solo, although never anywhere near the limit of my ability, and usually on known routes. There is a certain simple kinesthetic pleasure in it - climbing at its most basic. And the challenge and satisfaction can be rewarding. Still, you have to do it only for yourself, as great focus is required. Like some other things, it may be best undertaken in private.

Anders
Mimi

Trad climber
Seattle
Jul 12, 2006 - 08:15pm PT
That chuck on New Jack is magnificent!
tinker b

climber
your local park
Jul 12, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
pyro on the mountain stated ""a game of rouletee". I didn't need the stressful thought of cleaning him up after the fall. I recommend soloing on your own time and away from innocent families too. "
driving is dangerous too...i wish you wouldn't do that around me or other families.
i try to get up early and solo while others are sleeping, but sometimes i need my beauty sleep too, and the rock becons and there i am. however being a new age hippie, i can often feel people's fear from a distance which i have been working on controling. when you see people climbing with or without a rope, the best thing to do is shed positive energy, if that is not within your ability, and you have the option to walk away, i would do that. your visualization of negative things has the ability to bring them closer.
as a solist i usualy don't climb in an area where there are people already climbing, and i try to wear rock colored clothes, it is amazing how many people never see that i am there.
bleedr

climber
robber's roost
Jul 12, 2006 - 11:04pm PT
hey soloing ja ja good stuff...oh wait a sec lemme get that.



mmmmyeah, that was rockclimbing dot com. they want their thread back.
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Jul 12, 2006 - 11:41pm PT
I don't like to solo, or even climb, around other people.

I was up on a solo one day, minding my own business, when a couple people walked by, and I heard one say "Look at that idiot! He doesn't have a rope or chalk or even climbing shoes!"

Just leave me alone!
Anastasia

Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
Jul 13, 2006 - 03:43am PT
Well, we are suppose to live in a free country... I hope the choice to solo will remain with the individual.

What I am against is being forced to free solo. I once involuntarily had to free solo a down climb in Ojai because the leader miscalculated... We did not have enough rope for the repel and didn't have enough gear to build a second anchor. Because of this lack of foresight and the fact he had me follow him without warning of this dilemma... Well, no one should be forced to climb off of a rope...

I was shocked to find out there was no choice in the matter. Since I almost fell at one section because a portion of the rock fell away from beneath my feet, I still shiver at the situation.

I find it funny that he is now on this thread criticizing free soloist. All I can say is, Dude! You put me in danger without a choice. At least free soloist choose to their abilities. You never gave me the same chance.
I don't think you have the right to criticize when you force it upon others.

AF


cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Jul 13, 2006 - 04:57am PT
Anastasia - If you rapped on a double rope you may have had enough rope to reach the ground. Set up the rappel as a single rope for the first to rap. The better climber then can rerig it as a double rope and rap down... You can also climb back up your rap ropes if things are looking dicey. No pursick loops? Wrap sling around rope 4 times with small loop on the high end. Put long end thru small for a secure knot. You can use the ends of the rap rope (without cutting) as additional slings



When does bouldering turn into free soloing?

You will reach 21 mph with a fall from 15'; and 30 mph with a fall from 30'. It would depend greatly on the surface you're speeding towards. For flat hard ground 12' seems the transition point for me.

For a free fall, ignoring air resistance,
speed (in mph) = 5.45 x square root of height (in feet).

__

My most exciting free solo was climbing the rotten log on Royal Arches when I soloed the route. Very focusing.
TradIsGood

Trad climber
Gunks end of country
Jul 13, 2006 - 06:16am PT
What cliffhanger said. Rap on single rope to the ground.

If you are of a mind to help "leader" after that, get a second rope, tie it to the first. "Leader" can then pull both ropes and rerig for two rope rap.
clustiere

Trad climber
Durango, CO
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:36am PT
my favorite is when birds fly out into my chest.
b.p.

climber
bishop
Jul 30, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
A.F re:
You put me in danger without a choice...


Whose choice was it to climb? Were you forced?
Fact is, if you choose to step onto vertical ground, you assume responsability for putting yourself in danger. It doesn't matter who the "leader" is...if you tie into a rope and want to move on tilted space, you accept risk.
Choose partners with care and do the homework (approaches, gear, descents, weather, escape routes, timing, ect.) BEFORE TAKE OFF.
You are not a suitcase. You are a sentient being with the capacity to make choices.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but think about it...life IS harsh...and the Grim Reaper really doesn't give a damn about ethical issues...
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jul 30, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
No (rehash).. Jules Eichorn said "Strange things happen in the life of a mountaineer."


Sticks and Birds have hit famous free soloists...
b.p.

climber
bishop
Jul 30, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
Only as long as there are people operating in the neverneverland of a nanny society, where blame is more important than learning from mistakes...yeah, it's a bloody can o'worms allright!
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Jul 30, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
Blitzo, you like soloing *and* playing with rattlesnakes. Kind of a jb/crocodile hunter thing? Good luck with that.

Soloing is obviously a very personal decision, and if done in control, on the right day can be an incredible experience and an inspiration. But to folks that turn it into a routine part of their climbing, where does it lead? With that question asked, I certainly agree that having the mental control and skill of the soloist can be important to the trad climber; maybe moreso the alpinist.

It never occurred to me that a solid climber on that good day would fall while soloing. Then Derek fell off Sentinel. One of our common best friends, and an old mate of Derek's who was close with him going back to their Manchester days said to me after Derek died, "guess it was bound to happen sometime." I was shocked at the time he said that, but having thought a lot about this over the last 15 years, I think that most of us just can't beat the statistical odds forever. I also spent some time with Derek's mom and dad right after his death and that gave me some things to think about as well.

We've all gotta make our own decisions and accept the potential
consequences of those decisions.

mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 30, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
I could be wrong, but I read somewhere where Peter Croft said:

"Free-soloing is for the best climbers on their best days."

Or something close to that effect--seems reasonable to me.
Brian

climber
Cali
Jul 30, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
This thread is really beating a dead horse, and I don't think either side is likely to convince the other. That being said, here is my whack at the carcass...

I think soloing is fine, and I do some myself.

That being said, Maria Coffey's "Where the Mountain Casts Its Shadow" should be required reading for every soloist--especially those of us with families--so that folks who solo do so with (more or less) open eyes.

Brian
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jul 30, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
Anastasia brings up a good point. Depending on the experience of your follower, the leader is the guide and is responsible for the followers safety and climbing ability.

How many times have you waited for climbs when the leader is taking a nOOb up a climb they have no business being on, because the leader wants to climb it. Travelers Buttress was the scene of this scenerio the last time I was at the Leap.

If there are two partners swapping leads, or you have an experienced follower, then I agree with B.P.

I lost my best friend and climbing partner, Colin Nell, a few years ago to soloing. However, I still do it within limits. I go up nothing I am not willing to downclimb, or I have done the route previously and know what it is all about.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 30, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
My thoughts on the subject are thus:

1. The technical grade is unimportant--looks and feel of the route ARE.
2. Down soloing is more important than going up.
3. The decision to back-off or walk away should never be trivialised.
4. If it ain't fun, it ain't worth it.

Needless to say, I walk away (or downclimb) more than I succeed in topping out. However, I AM here typing this--so the rules work for ME.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 30, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
4. If it ain't fun, it ain't worth it.

So true. I love being out there, but it ain't a speck of fun if it turns sketchy.



It's amazing how different it is to climb with and without gear. With gear, a climb is broken into the sections that are defined as you place gear. Long climbs are broken into pitches, pitches into sections of good gear and not-so-good gear.

Without gear, a climb becomes one complete unit. The moment I step into a ropeless climb, I completely forget about breaking up the climb into rests and places to put pro. Usually I forget about gear altogether, remembering it with a smile as I climb through belay stations.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 30, 2007 - 04:39pm PT
I really like Mojede's analysis, nothing focuses your mind down way beyond preconceived perceptions to what is there, than, the free solo.

The OP was on my fiftieth b-day, you'd think I'd a learned by then !? Oh well.
Marty(R) style edit; "relax (?) and just say yes!"
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
I have "seen" this free soloing. It's not really free.

You still are tied into the umbilical cord of knowledge and judgment.

Knowledge and judgment are earned through proper work.

Where is free? Everything requires knowledge and work.

When will you start?

Still when all breaths (prana) is used up, one will fall out of their material body (death).

wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Jul 30, 2007 - 09:00pm PT
You're kidding yourself khanom. The "statistics" argument does not say that it is a game of chance. I agree with you that it is not a game of chance. Especially when performed by the best climbers on their best days. It is just that if one puts oneself in harms way often enough, in which a mistake *could* happen, and a signifcant number of factors are not in one's control, over a long period of time it becomes *likely* that something will happen. In the case of climbing uproped, that generally means something very bad.

With all due respect, there are many climbers that have fallen to their deaths while free-soloing; some of which were exceedingly good at their craft. Bachar, Croft, Potter; these guys are the exception, not the norm.
GDavis

Trad climber
SoCal
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:23pm PT
I have solo'd in zone 1 and on a rare occasion zone 2 in comfortable situations (easier routes, ones i've dialed and its the easiest way to get on something, etc) but I dont have the mental power to solo zone 3. that garners respect, straight up. its not like any idiot will die soloing a 300 foot route. 15 feet up off the ground seperates the people with their heads in the right places, or up their asses.
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:29pm PT
You don't seem to understand the statistics "argument" khanom. I'm not talking about climbing stats., or stats. for soloing. Simply stated, over time, especially a long period of time, stuff tends to happen. For example, if I roll two dice, on the first roll it is pretty unlikely that I will get a four on both dice. But if I roll those two dice over and over again, over time it is very likely that I will get both dice to show fours. If I roll those dice enough times, it is a virtual certainty that both dice will show fours. As a soloist, when your fours come up you will probably not walk away from it.

That is not to say that if you go out soloing tomorrow, you are necessarily playing a game of chance or that you are likely to die tomorrow from falling off your route. You can mitigate that risk tomorrow by being highly skilled and by making good decisions. Also, these simple facts based on statistics have nothing to do with say, the statistics of how many people have fallen soloing, versus how many people have not.

And if you think you can control all of the factors in climbing, like rockfall, like weather, etc. to the extent that it will never endanger you while soloing, you are seriously delusional and have obviously not been paying attention. I don't know you or your skill level, and if you want to tell me that you are so dialed in on your soloing that you will never make a mistake, whatever. I was very familiar with the skill level of Derek Hersey after climbing with him extensively for many years, and he fell off a route that should have been *well* within his ability and experience level as a master soloist. To this day, none of us knows exactly what caused him to fall. It certainly was not because of a lack of ability to downclimb out of trouble. Derek was known to downclimb multipitch routes of 5.10 and harder, sometimes onsight.

The fact that guys like Bachar and Croft have soloed so much, and at such a high level, and are still here, speaks of an astonishing level of skill and control. It also speaks of a fair degree of luck.
Matt

Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
(edited out because i prefer WB's response)
Raydog

Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:53pm PT
RE:
"You don't seem to understand the statistics "argument" khanom. I'm not talking about climbing stats., or stats. for soloing. Simply stated, over time, especially a long period of time, stuff tends to happen"

that's not statistics, it's the law of averages, probability.
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
wbw

No, it's not luck.

It's destiny .......
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:01am PT
Werner, I allow for the possibility that it might be destiny, and not luck.

I also stand corrected in my use of terms. Thanks Raydog. It is probability, and not statistics that I have been spewing about. As a high school math teacher, I deserve extreme torture for such an error. Guess I've been on summer vacation for too long.
Raydog

Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:04am PT
RE:
"I deserve extreme torture for such an error."

easy to get those confused :)

example: the longer one drives a car the greater the probability one has of being in an accident, etc.
WBraun

climber
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:07am PT
Now Derek Hersey was free soloing the Steck Salathe after a good rainstorm the day before and that could have contributed to make a crucial foot smear on the headwall pitch more slippery.

We speculated that's were he fell.

When me and Shipley free soloed it a few years ago we both thought that could be the spot because it was right in the fall line where his body was recovered.

Yes, only a speculation, but a highly probable place to slip.

None of us really know what can happen. I've almost knocked myself out of the crack accidentally due to my knee hitting my elbow as I was moving up rapidly.

It's very dangerous thing to free solo. I don't recommend it to anyone.

I have all the respect to those that don't free solo for the reasons that they believe it's crazy and/or unsafe.

Free soloing is just an area where some of us just go and others will not.
Raydog

Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:13am PT
soloing is an integral and important part of climbing (as a whole)
Matt

Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:22am PT
how do you define 'climbing'?

why?






some people would define climbing and soloing as the same thing
http://www.patagonia.com/usa/patagonia.go?assetid=21083
ng

Trad climber
New Mexico
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:52am PT
Matt-
Stolby - the town featured in your link - wow! Whole town & all ages soloing mutlipitch 5.9s.

the climbing was impressive and ballsy; good social commentary on the isolationist effects of a totalitarian political system. Great little documentary.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 31, 2007 - 12:53am PT
Freesoloing is very similar to driving a car, the difference being the range of diffculties.

When you are driving down the road, it's just you and a twist of the wheel between you and death. The objective hazards are the cars coming the other direction, some drunk, stoned, or on their cell phones texting, passing just 10 feet away. The combined speed of cars going both ways is often well over 100 mph.

So how dangerous soloing can be is a function of skill and experience making the action as routine as driving a car, plus the total of objective hazards.

Werner's right, it's just destiny that writes what really happens. Yabo shoots himself, Wolfgang gets killed on the road and Bachar breaks his neck that way too. Mikey gets swept out to sea and Walt drowns Kayaking. These guys were doing really dangerous climbs but the climbs couldn't touch them.

Peace

Karl

edit

"With all due respect, there are many climbers that have fallen to their deaths while free-soloing; some of which were exceedingly good at their craft."

I'd like a definition of "many"

I'd assert that Himalayan Mountaineering is at least 10 times more dangerous than free soloing rock, maybe 20 times.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 31, 2007 - 08:56am PT
I have had some of my richest climbing experiences while soloing. The threads I wove from those "risky" experiences, make up the rope that backs me up today and everyday, so of course I would say those risks were worth it.

I am uncomfortable with the relationship between soloing and the media. In the old days, hearing about Charlie on the DNB, or Ron on the North Buttress, or Croft on Astroman, as a word of mouth, spreading through the lot and the lodge kind of thing, I felt like I was hearing tell of someones personal vision quest, an inspiration. Though today's images and videos are inspiring or terrifying, I am bugged by the staging, the-going back-the-next-day-to-pose trend. Or the probability of media as a motivation. If Dean had quietly soloed Delicate Arch, because he was drawn by the line, and we heard rumor of it, it still would have been somewhat inspiring. As it was a pre-rehearsed, media rigged stunt, it fell to the level of anti-community poor taste.

I spent a morning with a guy whose girlfriend had recently died soloing a 10a hand crack in Canyonlands. I was affected by his grief and reflected on the Patagonia adds of Steph on the same climb that had possibly inspired her. Soloing in "real life", there is no photographer to ask for rope if the crack turns out to have some sand in it.

Destiny, luck, influence, these issues are too complex to simplistically blame the media, I'm just saying this trend of soloing and being photographed as a career move bothers me, and the resulting media does not add to the sport in my opinion.

Peter
Matt

Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
Jul 31, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
that is a great post peter, well said.
rick d

Social climber
tucson, az
Jul 31, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
stoby guy was a puss and his legs were weak.

soloing is a private matter and best done as such. Those who degrade it should stfu and go back to their armchair or the geritol sport routes. What was so well said is that alpine, ice, or any hard core mountaineering is 1,000 x more hazardous.


rick d
"the gimp- i've done an 80' grounder and laughed"
Brian

climber
Cali
Jul 31, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
This is getting funny. Maybe it is worth beating a dead horse.

(1) How, exactly, does one determine that alpine climbing or ice climbing is 2, 100, or 1000 times as dangerous as soloing? Exactly what danger meter are you using to measure the danger, and how has it been calibrated?

(2) What to all you folks mean by "chance"? Read Aristotle's Physics. You need to distinguish between "without a cause" and "contrary to expectation." However, in either case, there is clearly an element of "chance" (i.e., something happening contrary to expectation, but with a cause) involved with soloing, as there is with all climbing. No amount of experience, observation, or hand-wringing will tell you if some block 10 pitches above your head is going to fall.

The funny part of the thread is when folks jump on other folks' posts for being vague with language, and do so in an equally vague way.

Soloing is dangerous. Rock climbing, ice climbing, mixed climbing, alpine climbing, big wall climbing (all of which I do) are also dangerous. Danger is part of what makes it attractive.

Who was it who noted that if you take away the danger, climbing is just like Disneyland?

Brian
CAMNOTCLIMB

Trad climber
novato ca
Jul 31, 2007 - 06:34pm PT
Love to solo, back in the day. I always kept well within my limits. My best solos are the climbs that I walked away from because something didn't feel right. If I was not 100% I would skip soloing for the day and find a partner and climb something else.

The rewards are worth the risk.
Brian
pyro

Big Wall climber
Ventura
Jul 31, 2007 - 10:01pm PT
I was the leader in charge of anastasia ojai "epic". there was three of us.
she showed me no communication or she could have asked me or Ramon to put a belay on!
also if you read the guide book it's much safe to hike than to rap down the black-wall.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 31, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
I really agree with Maysho/Peter Mayfield. As one of the original free soloists, it is clear to me that what you experience while climbing hard unroped, is just incredible, frankly. The experience is so rich, after all those many years of work and practice, some of us can’t resist then reaching towards this place: just climbing with nothing, really sharp, as in a perfect dance. All the terrible factors are clear, in fact clearer than to those who post in outrage. It is a radical act, not another day on the rock. Soloing unroped is so personal that coming back to camp is almost embarrassing.
john hansen

climber
Jul 31, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
Your last sentence nails it Peter.
aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Aug 1, 2007 - 03:24am PT
Remember to double check your mental toprope !!

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Doug Hemken

climber
Madison, WI
Aug 1, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
You get what you pay for.
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Aug 1, 2007 - 07:14pm PT
Yes, that last line of Peter Haan's post is very eloquent, although I haven't noticed anyone posting in outrage. Also, as a person who has soloed in the past for some of the same reasons stated on this thread, and may in the future, I'm not sure that I think soloists understand the potential consequences better than climbers that choose not to solo.

In addition to having experienced that unique feeling of completing a beautiful route without the hindrance of gear and partner, I've witnessed soloing that was inspirational. Many years ago I was climbing at Arch Rock, and saw Werner soloing on what appeared to be a circuit he was climbing. One would have thought that gravity had no effect on him at all; so fast and fluid.

I was only pointing out that nobody believes they will fall before choosing to solo a route: if they did that would be . . . suicide. My previous view held many years ago that there was something inherent in soloing that made me less likely to fall, than when I was climbing roped, changed the die my friend died soloing the Steck-Salathe.

Here's to hoping that on those days when everything feels right, and we make the decision to trust only our own skill and judgement leaving the gear and partner behind, we've made the right decision.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 2, 2007 - 01:12am PT



Peace

Karl
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 2, 2007 - 09:27am PT
Thanks Wbw. Right, I don’t think there are any posters on this one thread that argue the usual “soloing is crazy and causes everybody else pain”, but there have been over the years some of these here on ST and other forums; and of course the nonclimbing public usually understands it only in this way and that it is apparently valueless.

It is interesting there are so few solo deaths. Yes, Derek’s was tragic. I also said that the soloist knows more clearly the “terrible factors” than others do; the soloist is almost always a world-class expert and is handling the situation directly, not from the ground, from the campfire or the office chair. He certainly is not delusional and unaware of his circumstances, quite the reverse.

The solo venture is so utterly personal but so utterly dramatic at the same time, that then later facing others, friends, has aspects to it that are very interesting and unusual, including a weird sort of embarrassment. To have failed violently in one’s mission climbing alone unroped would have precipitated a shocking cascade of pain and horror for dozens of family, friends and rescue people. And the private nature of just going out and climbing with no protection whatsoever is hard to mesh with ordinary reality and community.

best to you all, PH
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Aug 2, 2007 - 10:42am PT
Mr. Haan, I am curious how much "virtual" free soloing you did when you went alone on Salathe? It helped me immensely when I got 'wound tight' to think about you up there years ago, on the big Alone.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 2, 2007 - 11:38am PT
426,

Do you mean by "virtual soloing", that in soloing the Salathe how much of it did I not bother to protect and just ran stuff out?

If that is the question, I pretty much climbed it with the protection I would have installed had I been leading with a partner. But in those days (1971) that could have meant enormous runouts, anyway, since there were no Friends and no reliable wide pro devices and we just all climbed this way.

In Hollow Flake I put in only one or two pieces (bongs) after the pendulum, and pretty much only higher up, because it made cleaning it quick and easy. On the summit pitch, I had a piece way up inside the slot and downclimbed from it to do the outer jam crack, just as anybody would even today, and put then something in shortly thereafter too on the last vertical part. My approach was not in great distinction to ordinary methods of that day, other than being solo and climbing all of it free that up to that date had gone free. I did not completely trust myself and so took reasonable precautions. I knew I was in a strange zone and could make an error of judgement more easily than if I was just day-climbing at Arch Rock.

best, Ph.
Barbarian

Trad climber
So Cal
Aug 2, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
I'm with Cliffhanger... I free soloed the Royal Arches when the Rotten Log was still balanced up there. That shaking was a bit unnerving!
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Aug 2, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
Thanks Mr. Haan, that was exactly what I was wondering about...
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Aug 3, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
Will know soon
Dec 4, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
Reading all your takes is an interesting mind journey for me. Peter H. I can see how coming back to camp would be a physical and mental mindblower in many ways. lynnie
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Dec 4, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
Yeah. You come back to camp and thank god you're still alive and in good form. You might even marvel over this state of affairs. You might feel really extravagant and maybe that you have taken "more than your share" that day, especially when you face others in their campsites....

You also know that in a way, you could have caused an enormous hassle all kinds of grief and misery had you fallen while out there unroped, high and hard. It is a proud moment to perform these deeds; they seem so impeccable and so honorable and perhaps so eternal. But the situation also has the other possibility that you were wrong, were foolishly killed, and then necessitated the help of dozens of people and agencies and family and loved ones to clean up your mess. Your dead mess.So much for deep self-knowledge.

I am a proponent of soloing, was one of the very early high and hard soloists from the sixties and seventies. But you must not fall, you must make it through, and must truly know what the hell you are doing on all levels. Or in other words, live.
WBraun

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
But you must not fall,

I know a couple of people who did and one of them posts here occasionally.

I fell too ......
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Dec 5, 2009 - 12:53am PT
For those who want to solo....Have you ever hit the ground from 40+' and got to live and have your "Bros' take you to the hospital? Hitting the ground from up there is like a primitive Startrek transporter "Beaming a 2"x8" through your body. I used to, free solo, but after escaping serious injury ( Although bandaged from head to toe, like a mummy, and sewn back together, From head to toe). I just take along the rope and cover my ass....You guys climb harder but it only takes one lose block or......
flyingkiwi1

Trad climber
Seattle WA
Dec 5, 2009 - 01:26am PT
For me to experience the feeling of flow, of the actual river of life flowing around and through my body and soul, requires, first and foremost, a heightened sense of focus.

Climbing heightens my focus; soloing heightens it more. Much more.

A secondary requirement is an extended, uninterrupted period of outdoor exercise. Climbing provides this, sort of; nordic and backcountry skiing, other such forms of outdoor aerobic exercise, and soloing, more.

So, for me, doing an easy alpine solo with a 2-hour approach is the best means I have of obtaining the best feeling I know.

It would be great to know how to get such focus without my life hanging in the balance. I don't.

Ian
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2009 - 02:12am PT
Yep .....
Misha

Trad climber
Woodside, CA
Dec 5, 2009 - 02:27am PT
So, for me, doing an easy alpine solo with a 2-hour approach is the best means I have of obtaining the best feeling I know.

Amen!
Rudder

Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
Dec 5, 2009 - 03:09am PT
I always thought John, rather than title his article the "only" blasphemy, should have titled it the "last" blasphemy.
426

climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Dec 5, 2009 - 08:23am PT
Any changes of perspective/attitude/habit/mental status since JB died free soloing?
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 5, 2009 - 08:44am PT
Soloing appeals to the minimalist in me. I never liked the getting ready part of climbing (putting on shoes, mostly) and I always thought that placing pro detracted from the experience of dancing on the rock. Someone who climbs a pitch with half of the gear of another will most likely have climbed the pitch in better style (IMHO). Soloing is a natural and I guess ultimate extension of this phenomenon. Just climbing, ...only stopping when you need to rest or figure something out. It's pure and natural, man.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 5, 2009 - 09:28am PT
I've always liked the freedom of soloing. I follow two rules: I always solo well within my ability, and I never solo in front of others.
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