Children Tooled by Rangers in YNP

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Al_Smith

climber

San Francisco, CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2013 - 02:29pm PT

So, while I hate to be a purveyor of any kind of negativity, I must relate this story from last weekend, as venting may help cool down my otherwise white hot anger at the incident in question...

We finished climbing in scorching heat at around 2 pm last Saturday and went down to the El Cap Bridge to cool ourselves with an ice cold dip in the Merced.

After swimming and checking the depth below the bridge, I went up to the bridge and as I was about to climb over the railing and jump from the big wood pylons into the river, three rangers approached and asked me if I was about to jump. I asked, 'Why, is it against the rules.' To which one the rangers angrily replied, 'It's illegal! Have you already been jumping off?' I said, 'Well not to incriminate myself, but while I haven't jumped off yet today I've been doing so frequently for years and if its illegal a sign ought to be posted to that effect.' This resulted in him stepping up and getting into my face and telling me not to even think about doing it ever again. I apologized and said I'd follow that directive to which he stuck a big thumbs-up inches from my face. As an ex-Division One College Wrestler and law abiding citizen, this really got me steaming mad and I'm not going to lie...I almost lunged at the guy. A momentary fantasy of me knocking all three ranger's off the bridge and into the water flickered through my mind. But of course, I did not do this, nor would I ever assault an LEO or anyone else for that matter..

I decided to walk back down and rejoin my companions and just cool off. Moments later however, the rangers came down along the bank and yanking a rope swing out of the hands of an 11 year old, cut the cord leaving the remainder of the rope as mank hanging from the tree far out of reach.

They then begin to interrogate a half dozen or so kids whose ages ranged from approximately 8-12, demanding to know who had been jumping from the bridge and using the rope swing.

The swing was approximately 4 feet above 5-8 feet deep water with no dangerous impediments or other inherent risks.

The kids were shocked and the sad and confused looks on their faces perfectly captured the shock and disgust any normal adult would have at such as scene.

The Rangers seemed to send the following message to the children present:

1) It's not ok to recreate in nature, especially not in our National Parks. To avoid censure or trouble, its better to just go back to playing video games, watching TV, or playing with the smart phones they are all too young to have.

2) It's ok to trad climb, do A4 walls, hike up the Half Dome cables, and go scrambling up Class 3 and 4 gullies. But it is not ok to assess the dangers of swimming and jumping or swinging into the Merced River.

3) It's ok for Rangers to adopt a hostile attitude with children when the children don't know what they are doing is wrong.

4) It's ok for Rangers to question children without a legal guardian present.

I mean...what kind of adult, what kind of person, becomes a Park Ranger in the crown jewel of the Park system only to:

a) harass children and refuse to allow them to recreate and have fun in a natural setting
b) leave un-usable mank hanging from a tree (effectively turning something useful into litter and then leaving the garbage...as someone who has participated in three Facelift's and who always picks up garbage as I find it along trails, at the base of climbs, etc I find that act alone to be despicable. That some a-hole would lecture me and act condescending that I'd even think to jump into the Merced when its 105 degrees out and then that same a-hole turns around and leaves garbage in the Park is beyond comprehension!)

Anyway, sorry for the long rant...but that event really was one of the least productive citizen/Ranger interactions and also one of the biggest acts of cowardice I've ever seen. Shame on those three. I hope they felt really big and tough after harassing those kids. At least that way, somebody would have gotten something out of it...

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:33pm PT

Ya know, these 'tooled by Rangers' threads have become about as ubiquitous as 'Dogs at the Crags' threads lately.

Not agreeing or disagreeing...just sayin'.

briham89

Big Wall climber

san jose, ca

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:41pm PT

I've seen this at the bridge as well.....very lame. Man I hate tool rangers.

The thing is they don't have to be this way either...

I was unpacking my haul bag in the Ahwahnee parking lot after climbing the column (with my shirt off and looking pretty dirty after a wall) and a ranger slowly pulled up behind me in his car. I was thinking great here we go again. He stopped, paused for a second, looked at me and said, "how did it go". I said, "awesome". He smiled said cool and then drove away.... So there is at least one nice ranger in YNP.

JohnnyG

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:47pm PT

What a bummer. Any chance you know their names? I would contact the NPS to make a complaint.
-John

p.s. Cragman- I disagree with you. Hating your job (or parts of it) is no excuse for being an excessive jerk.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:50pm PT

Report them. Simple as that.

There is a lot going wrong with the current training of LEO's in this country and it seems to be systemic and coordinated.

Confrontational and bullying seems to be standard procedure. Perhaps some study was done indicating that this provided safety for the LEO and now it's being taught to all the newbies. It's clearly a training issue at this point.

Again I say take the time to report them. Reports go on their record and those records are reviewed. Eventually if enough negative reports compile the officer finds himself in a corrective situation.

Cragman it used to be that these types of incidents were unusual and generally due to burnout. Now it seems to me to be commonplace and due to training. You have any input on changes in training procedure lately?

Lotsa odd training they get. Most people simply have no idea what they are up against when conversing with LEO's.. little tricks and lying are part of the toolbag of the tool. I noticed one after a couple stops in one month where the officers told me my eyes were dialated..huh wth? The second time I heard the same bs out of the LEO's mouth I simply told him .. no they aren't. I was onto their little game.

Folks remember you are always going up against a trained adversary when confronted by LEO's. Be polite and know your rights and politely insist on them.

RDB

Social climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:57pm PT

Fook that!

"one must understand that the LEO's do nothing but warn tourons over and Over and OVER again about the dangers...AND...they assist in LOTS of injuries and body recoveries. All of that gets old....and can certainly lead to a rotten attitude."

Ya, if you can't deal with the job and be PROFESSIONAL get a new job.
There is NO excuse acceptable for the attitude in any NPA or by any form of LEO. As in none.

Norwegian

Trad climber

dancin on the tip of god's middle finger

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:59pm PT

i usually just tell them something
absurd and completely off topic,

"hey did you know that a
fresh-slight-fuzzed peach skin
protects its sweet fruit
with about the same tensile capacity
as a hymen protects a virgin cavity?"

they usually are quite taken back,
too removed and suprised to harness anger.
a moment or so of silence,
and then a small lecture ensues.

it's worked for me a few times
with LEO's (a chp came rippin into
my driveway accusing me of hit and run;
a ranger tooled my buddy and i for cutting
the switchbacks on the halfdome walkoff,
and once in the sheriff's car
after i got the shite kicked out of me
by some coked out heads.)

use my advice at your own risk.

Al_Smith

climber

San Francisco, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 03:06pm PT

Cragman - I'm 99% of the time right there with you. I empathize a great deal with NPS personnel and their need to balance a good visitor experience with keeping people safe in what is for the most part an environment that many visitors are unused to...where there is a lot of dangerous 'hey-we-are-at-Disneyland' behavior. And while it's unclear from my above post, I was very respectful, calm, and polite in my interaction with the Rangers. Even when they escalated the tone of our discussion I maintained perfectly measured speech, used the word 'sir' a number of times, and kept an un-threatening stance.

I have a great deal of respect for LEOs and Rangers. Having grown up in Baltimore city, I came to see LEOs as allies and not people to disrespect or shy away from.

That's why I'm particularly disheartened by this event. It instills an us against them mentality when it really doesn't need to be that way.

If they had approached me - but more importantly, those children - with a sincere conversational tone and briefly pointed out the dangers of jumping off the bridge or using the rope swing, and then climbed up and removed the cord, that would be one thing. There would be a feeling of community. And while the children would have still been disappointed they wouldn't have felt abused or attacked.

I think our Parks are one of the places that best inculcate a sense of community in America's citizens. Making friends in the mountains with people from all over who have different levels of experience in nature while enjoying the shared resource of our protected lands is one of the reasons I keep going back week after week, year after year(that and perfect splitter cracks!) How many people who wouldn't give a stranger the time of day in a city head out to the hills and are quick to strike up conversation with fellow visitors - sharing information, providing directions, pointing out a particularly beautiful view, etc, etc, etc. The actions this weekend that were observed at the El Cap Bridge create an environment of division, fear, disrespect, etc. Such an unnecessary shame...

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:08pm PT

The County Sheriff should patrol the parks, and leave the rangers to help the tourists identify trees and sh#t.

There's obviously nowhere near enough actual crime in the parks to warrant a full-time LEO presence, if the rangers have enough spare time to triple-team a kid on a tree swing.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:28pm PT

Tools will be tools. Wait for the interruption to leave, then continue with your swimming.

kaholatingtong

Trad climber

Nevada City

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:38pm PT

i wonder what their reaction would have been to calmly approaching after the whole mess and asking their names. quite unfortunately, i'm the idiot that would have had trouble stopping myself from doing this.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:59pm PT

"Moving on" does nothing to correct the root of the problem.

We have a militarized police mentality that is creeping into all LEO orgs throughout our country, including fed ranger LEOs.

A couple/three years ago I wrote here about an incident I witnessed in the valley...multiple LEO cars driving about 85mph down the loop road, then jumping out with AR15s at the elbow beach turnout, and running around like headless chickens surrounding an empty vehicle while pointing their g@##%mn weapons into oncoming/sitting traffic, i.e. directly at me.

In 35 years of handling and shooting firearms, I've never in my life seen worse muzzle control, or more reckless disregard for bystander safety. And for what? Not a damn thing, a parked, empty car. Something needs to change.

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:19pm PT

Probably the only thing you can do is get their names and file a formal complaint with the NPS.
I think that is the least you should do considering the situation.

Yosemite is still considered one of the top places for a job with the NPS and many a ranger live in fear of a "transfer" to such wonderful places as Ellis Island or Tuzigoot National Monument. Public servants are just that and this aggressive as#@&%e attitude that prevails with some rangers is getting out of hand.

Tom Frost told me he got tooled twice in one day in the Valley several years ago. I said they were just looking for an autograph. I would certainly do everything possible to get this type of activity on record and we all know how much the gov't likes to keep records.

Peter Haan

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:32pm PT

No question; I agree with Joe McKeown/Guido.

Al you must file a formal complaint. The phone number (209) 372-0200 with a few sub menus, gets you to law enforcement. You can request that you need to file a formal complaint and get their forms.

One of the addresses to reach the actual Superintendent Don Neubacher is Box 577, Yosemite National Park, CA 95389.

Trouble like this will never end but it will increase and worsen unless we fight back each and every time. Resistance is imperative.

Many many LEOs are right on the edge of being perpetrators themselves.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:47pm PT

I'm with Will,

"We have a militarized police mentality that is creeping into all LEO orgs throughout our country, including fed ranger LEOs."

the militarization of the rangers has been a bad thing in general.

"I have a great deal of respect for LEOs and Rangers. Having grown up in Baltimore city, I came to see LEOs as allies and not people to disrespect or shy away from.

That's why I'm particularly disheartened by this event. It instills an us against them mentality when it really doesn't need to be that way."

I'm pretty sure I have used those exact words in your 2nd sentance before.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:48pm PT

You can do your job without making little kids feel like turds Norton.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:53pm PT

I told my kids that there were no signs on El Cap bridge.
Therefore we all did the jump, multiple times, as in days past.

Can they give you a ticket for not stopping at an intersection if there's no stop sign?

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:01pm PT

Dale was a bad boy, but his charm got him out of most situations.

That's for sure, Kevin. Ah, the good old days!

John

Crump

Social climber

Lakewood, CO

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:11pm PT

In the valley I have met both the worst Ranger and the best ranger that I have ever interacted with.

The worst was an argro shemale that used power and authority to compensate for what she lacked... Heard the facts directly from another lady ranger who hated her also...

The best, up in the TMeadows, and he was welcome to hang with us in our camp anytime and became a great friend.

The thing that is tough, besides the job, is that fed power thingie...

The shemale had us in front of a US Magistrate in Federal Court... For yes, inappropriate disregarding signs....

10b4me

Ice climber

Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:27pm PT

The shemale had us in front of a US Magistrate in Federal Court... For yes, inappropriate disregarding signs....

sounds like the same one who wrote me up for disregarding a "chains required" sign(there wasn't any snow on the road).
she also told me I could fight it before the judge in Yosemite.
This was back in 1994.

ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber

Reno, Nevada

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:39pm PT

Dale Bard did the jump off the top of the shuttle into the river on Sentinel Bridge - don't know about Jim Wilson.

Hell, the way I heard it EVERYONE was doing laps. You mean to tell me it was one man? If so, leave it up to Dale, ha ha.

Years ago "lobo jr" sat in the bushes taking digital photos of everyone jumping off the bridge. Just as we were leaving he jumped out from his hiding and lined everyone up by ID'ing them on the view screen. He must have been at it for hours because he gathered about 20 people and gave them all tickets for jumping.

He didn't have a pic of me.

I don't know why they just don't post a NO JUMPING sign? It seems like sometimes its enforced and other times not.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:45pm PT

I don't know why they just don't post a NO JUMPING sign? It seems like sometimes its enforced and other times not.

No sh#t eh? Because they wouldn't have as many people to f*#k with if they put a sign up?

I've only jumped off of it a few hundred times since 76. I'm sure there are more important things for them to do,.......

like guard the railings at the top of waterfalls......

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:47pm PT

I don't know why they just don't post a NO JUMPING sign?

I'd want to have the first jump after they put that up..

I might even steal the sign.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:47pm PT

Did someone say rope swing? We saw an awesome rope swing at the lake we stayed at this summer, I was afraid to let my boy try it. Told him that was the sort of thing to do when dad is not watching.

Sounds like those kids learned a valuable lesson at the bridge, lesson is, LE can be pricks

ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber

Reno, Nevada

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:42pm PT

I asked a ranger once why it was illegal to jump off the bridge and he said: "Because it stirs up the silt on the bottom and kills the fish".

SERIOUSLY!!!

Magic Ed

Trad climber

Nuevo Leon, Mexico

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:52pm PT

This post pretty much illustrates why, in 46 years of climbing, I've only been to the Valley once and vowed never to return.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:07pm PT

Someone should put up their own 'No jumping. You're going to either die or get tooled.' sign.

Put a wildlife cam on a nearby tree and see what happens.

Tool the tools.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:07pm PT

Interesting info, klaus! Who woulda ever guessed...

from p 6 of the compendium link posted upthread:

• Possession of a glass container within 50 feet of any riverbank, lakeshore, on the water, or in a vessel is prohibited.
36 CFR § 1.5(a)(2); 36 CFR § 1.5(f)
This restriction is for the protection of natural and cultural resources and public safety.

• Jumping or diving from any bridge or from O’Shaughnessy Dam is prohibited.
36 CFR § 1.5(a)(1); 36 CFR § 1.5(f)
This activity has resulted in severe injuries to persons who have jumped from bridges into shallow water.
Also, people jumping from bridges cause increased water turbidity and shock waves, both of which have a detrimental effect on fish and other components of aquatic ecosystems.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:14pm PT

Possession of a glass container within 50 feet of any riverbank, lakeshore, on the water, or in a
vessel is prohibited.
36 CFR § 1.5(a)(2); 36 CFR § 1.5(f)

So...you could be cited for wearing a watch? A watch contains many parts and has glass. An iPhone? It contains things and has glass. What about a high end thermos? They have glass inside them.

aspendougy

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:33pm PT

Rangers should not make up laws as they go along. If they say that something is illegal, and there is no law on the books to that effect, they need to be disciplined for that. It sets a poor example for kids when the rangers are caught lying.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about jumping from a bridge here and there, it depends upon the speed of the water, the height of the bridge, the landscape on the bottom of the river, as well as the swimming ability of the person jumping.

It is also a sign of the times. I grew up in the 1950's. My parents were busy working, and so I was able to take many more risks that children are allowed to take these days.

saa

climber

Bleau, cham, pink granite coast

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:40pm PT

Having been on both sides of the equation, i d like to upgrade the
general mood with humourous ranger stories. If possible.

2-3 months in yos a year, err , i mean " precisely" 30 days in camp 4,
mixed with being a ranger (rms, not leo) brings some cute moments.
( i m also part of the tom bridge circus show , detail for a n above poster. )

1
One night at LYV Station a leo shows up. Proceeds to downtalk his new boss
at Ynp, perhaps the dark lord, perhaps another high up the ynp leo ladder.
He Then
threatens the audience at the camp fire: if any of this gets out,
I ll find you." The type of man that inspires trust. Then,
drunk enough, he proceeds to talk about female parts
so that
the women might talk about eros.
He then moves to what attracts women to a man , obviously
power like his ow n should be attractive.

Ooooops, all the potential targets are C4.
Yosar C 4, VIP C4, but C4 all the same. Hardcore,
wild, ski ny, suntanned, ... well: C4 women.
Gun, power, big mouth, cop badge wońt get any of us to
his bed.

2
Female leo. High country. A SAR starts, the chopper flies over the valley
in early light. She s been unreachable since evening.
Madame needs her beauty sleep. Following week: A flood takes
place while she s away. Hikers beg for refuge, i let them in the station for
the night. She later gives me hell for not contacting yosar with the problem.
The closest
Radio was one mile away, over 2 raging flooding streams. I should have reached
that? I m not inclined to drown so i can ask permission for endangered
hikers to sleep inside the ranger station.

Where was she when yosar tried to reach her so she d do her job?

3
A valley leo works overtime days in days out. His boss should give him some
time off. One day he scouts Camp 4 parking lot. I hug him in front of his
Uniformed colleagues. Embarrassing. A C4 dirtbag woman hugs you. Bizarrrrrrrr
He goes back to working more overtime. Because in winter, he does not
chase yos climbing bums. He is a surfing bum in San Diego. Doh!

dirtbag

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:41pm PT

Tool the kids young and often, I say. Put the little fookers in their place.

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:47pm PT

Report 'em.

I generally really dislike LEOs.

Got pulled over the other day 1/2 block from my house for speeding, downhill no gas/no breaks, just coasting speed. Officer approaches, one hand on his gun and yells 'Stay in the car, put your hands on the steering wheel...Need to see your DL, Reg, and Ins...Do not make any sudden moves...'

In a total as#@&%e tone.... WTF? Did he not already know I live right around the corner, have paid taxes there for 8 years, have zero anything on my record...? I reported him but it gave me little satisfaction and no relief from the fine.

edit: And why, if LEO in YNP inhabit this forum, do they not comment/interact openly with us on these topics. Is the job of climber/Ranger relations the sole responsibility of the climbing ranger de jour? Nevermind, I'll answer it myself...a) they're not allowed because they're not authorized to comment publically on anything relating to their jobs/the park, or b) they're not allowed to because very few/one are/is smart enough to handle the dialog, or c)they don't care what we think, or d)all of the above.

Bad Climber

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:57pm PT

Dang, I'm hatin' national parks more every day....

BAd

Rankin

Social climber

Greensboro, North Carolina

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:26pm PT

Because they carry guns, and are given some discretion as to when the use of force is lawful, the police should be held to the highest standard of professional responsibility. They should also be paid more, a lot more. This would help to create a better pool of applicants, and would hopefully lead to happier officers. Regardless, there should be a zero tolerance policy for excessive use of force or bullying of lawful patrons in Yosemite.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:31pm PT

How much more do you want to pay them, Rankin?

Here in Redlands, Sergeants make $200,000. Lieutenants in the RPD make $375,000. The Chief is paid more than President Obama.

What's a Sergeant in the U.S. Army make? How about an Army Lieutenant?

dee ee

Mountain climber

citizen of planet Earth

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:35pm PT

Tad, I'm going with Jim as the first to do the big launch. Matt and I stopped the bus. Jim stepped up on the railing and launched without hesitation.

Some want to claim every first in spite of those unknown daredevils who may have gone first.

In an honest effort to clear up this big controversy I will post the date, taken from my book. It was between Aug. 24-30, 1974.

The reason this came up was due to an e-mail (that I got this week)regarding the Nabisco Wall thread wherein I responded that Jim and I followed a mega-psyched Matt Cox up the NW during the same period. It (the NW) was "the big thing" in the news.

Dale, do you remember?

I guess I forgot the original topic!!! Oh yeah "Tools being tools."

Rankin

Social climber

Greensboro, North Carolina

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:40pm PT

Chaz, evidently you're the authority on cop pay in California. I do know that an officer in the Greensboro City Police starts out making about $25k. Seems like that is probably closer to the mean of most states. Hard to imagine those figures you cite are real, or relevant to rangers in Yosemite. But whatevs. Either way, for the most part cops do a dangerous, and thankless job. The majority of cops killed in the line of duty are killed during routine traffic stops. Starting at $25k seems a bit low, don't you think?

saa

climber

Bleau, cham, pink granite coast

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:40pm PT

Ron

Stories
Stories
Stories....

Come on man

Stories. ;)

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:45pm PT

Rankin, the majority of cops killed in the line of duty are killed in traffic ACCIDENTS.

don't let the facts screw up his story

FRUMY

Trad climber

SHERMAN OAKS,CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:48pm PT

Cragman you are not right on deaths of police officers.

Last year 47 killed by gun fire & 21 Killed in car accidents,& seven on motorcycles.

Rankin

Social climber

Greensboro, North Carolina

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:50pm PT

Thanks for backing me up Frumy. Not that it matters that much. Regardless, it's a dangerous job.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:56pm PT

I wonder why they don't bust the whole Tom Evans circus show?

I think I read somewhere that Tom is on the NPS payroll, or something.

squishy

Mountain climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 09:11pm PT

lol, So that's what was going on over there...I thought there was an unusual amount of ranger activity near the bridge..

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 24, 2013 - 09:16pm PT

big mistake to expect to engage in un-structured activity in a national park. i'm sure there have been plenty of meetings after all the church mice sliding over the falls.

folks drown all the time in that river. and we should let them.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 24, 2013 - 09:39pm PT

Rankin writes:

"I do know that an officer in the Greensboro City Police starts out making about $25k."

I hear that. We have a friend of the family working as a deputy in Bonner County, Idaho. He's like a Sergeant, and he's making about the same.

I like to remind our city Government of that every chance I get. We can get the exact same job done for far less money. We could afford to hire almost TEN Bonner County cops for what we pay just one Sergeant.

Maybe pay them $40,000/yr to relocate here from Idaho. Let them know they'll never need to chain-up, or put on studded tires at work ever again.

Our city is broke, but we're broke by choice.

Dangerous job, certainly. But farmers, fishermen, and trashmen have a greater chance of being killed on the job than a cop or a fireman.

cuvvy

Sport climber

arkansas

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:42pm PT

I bet we all have been a butth head at some time in our lives. Me for sure multiple times.
Move on. Relax. Breathe. Think about the beauty. I am dying to see the valley, but will still be a while. Nature is usually much nicer than(human) nature.
Give the gift of forgiveness.

Tobia

Social climber

Denial

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:47pm PT

Not agreeing or disagreeing...just sayin'.

saying what?

Crazy Bat

Sport climber

Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:39pm PT

I also had two disturbing encounters in Yose this month. The first was a traffic stop. I was heading out of the park in that area where the left lanes are narrower than the right lanes. This vehicle got right where his lights were blinding me. I slowed down, he slowed down. I moved as far right as I could so he could pass me. You guess it was a LEO. He pulled me over for traveling on the fog line. He was startled when I told him why, but I figured traffic stops make everyone safer in the long run and didn't think much about it.

The other bothered me more. Our group was camped at Yose Creek campground and our camping was paid through Sunday. Everyone but me pulled out Saturday. Now for two weeks I was the one threatening anyone who left food out and lived up to my title of Camp Bitch. Saturday afternoon I pulled the tickets of the campsites that were no longer in use. That night I was at the next campsite down visiting with new campers when a LEO truck pulled into the campground, went right to our main site, where I was parked and using the bear box. They informed me that citronella products were left out (I use deet) as were cleaning products. If a sponge and a dish pan that had been left out for two weeks counted I guess I was guilty, but they had been used to wash feet. Then they told me that the two bears in the area were very aggressive. Not what the campground hosts said and we never saw a bear in the campground or heard of anyone who did. We were all polite and professional and Jessey had told me they had been told to pay close attention to us because were were doing something that had gotten other groups in trouble because they were charging to rappel El Cap and we were a large group.

They didn't issue a ticket, but what disturbed me was that they then left the campground without visiting any other sites. I think they expected to find a large group and were disappointed. I felt harrassed. They may have been professional acting, but lieing about what was left out and aggressive bears wasn't professional, even if it is allowed in law enforcement circles.

Thanks for giving me an excuse to vent about this!

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:13am PT

LEO caught lying?

SOP.. they are the best TRAINED liars you'll ever meet.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

extraordinaire

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:31am PT

It's ignorant (OP) to think you gonna do antics at high profile beaches/ bridges in the valley. I'm not even that pro LEo or whatever - it's more a commen sense thing.

skywalker

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:05am PT

Ya know we had an LEO here in this canyon that is very popular with climbers some years ago. Must have been from the flat lands and straight out of LEO school. His belt and gun barely stayed around his waist even with frequent maintenance.

Its traditionally been a dog loving area and he would tap on my window in the parking lot before I got out of my pick-up to ask me if I had a leash for my 10 yr old lab in the bed. I always did.

One time he decided to hike a cliff band that surely would produce a few dogs that may not be leashed. Mine wasn't. He asked me about the situation and I said I had no problem leashing my sleeping dog (her favorite activity) and did so without waking her up. There were 3 adults on the ground, no one around and I was cited for an uncontrolled animal. Apparently he cited 50+ people that day and many called his supervisor including me. He had to tear up all tickets and we never saw him again.

I was breaking the law but some level of free thinking should have been in order.

S...

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:01am PT

where do the rangers get their food?

and beverages?

Wayno

Big Wall climber

Seattle, WA

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:32am PT

What would Broderick Crawford say?

command error

Trad climber

Colorado

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:35am PT

When its 100+ I'll go swimming in the merced no matter how many corpses are
rotting in it upstream. My imagination makes me think I can smell
the diluted dead juice flowing past though.

The lack of a no jumping sign is very un-federal government-like.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:40am PT

Got pulled over in Tuolumne recently for 'speeding' - didn't go a single MPH over. Immediately started the routine, can I search your vehicle, playing that whole game. Eventually let me go with a speeding ticket, for which I did no speeding what so ever, which is money I don't have : /

Oh well, if this is my social injustice I'll take it on the chin. It ain't a big deal. I'm more likely to visit elsewhere, though. I can't afford to be profiled and searched (in the rain, no less) and there's too much rock in the sierra.

Charlie D.

Trad climber

Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra

Jul 25, 2013 - 08:33am PT

^^^Labor Day is the day I exhale and head to the high country.

Argon

climber

North Bay, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 10:03am PT

Maybe YNP can hire the IRS's dance instructor for some fun and relaxation. I think she may have some free time on her hands.

10b4me

Ice climber

Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona

Jul 25, 2013 - 10:35am PT

Another got to stack sticks for five months straight..

Hahaha, that's pretty funny.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Jul 25, 2013 - 10:36am PT

Time to re- tool.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 25, 2013 - 10:46am PT

All these stories of bad Leos... why no video?

dirtbag

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 11:05am PT

Tool, the children well...

dirtbag

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 11:38am PT

Yep Ron, that was their first unreleased draft.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:01pm PT

Wow, talk about a rant!

Thanks for bitching about the bitchfest, bitch.

Oh, and welcome back Pate, HA!!

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:21pm PT

Clicker=Rox, welcome back. Nobody babbles quite the way you do, Lance.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:34pm PT

Clicker=Rox, welcome back. Nobody babbles quite the way you do, Lance.

Agree. His repressed homosexual desires come through loud and clear in every post.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:38pm PT

Try to figure out if it was really illegal, then write a letter to the guy's boss explaining that his behaviour was inappropriate particularly the violence directed at the children, ask why the swing has been there for so many years and used by so many people if its illegal to do it and why the cop couldn't tell you this in a professional way. Make sure you send the letter to the right person.

Write to your congressmen urging them to de-fund the NPS, that turns the most beautiful parts of the US into theme parks that are over-regulated by cops and more cops. Hyper aggressive ones, too, they think the parks are full of terrorists. Cut their funding, they're just a problem.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:55pm PT

... and keeping a low profile.

No. That is terrible advice and a terrible attitude. It implies that we, the public, should fear and avoid LEOs. It should not be that way. LEOs work for us and are supposed "To Server and Protect" the public. There is NEVER any excuse for them being rude or unprofessional. Any "average Joe" that does that in a retail job gets fired. LEOs should be held to AT LEAST that same standard.

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jul 25, 2013 - 01:56pm PT

I hear ya Riley

but let me ask you, imagine you are a park Ranger and a big part of your job description and security from your boss is to watch out and stop park visitors from putting themselves into potentially dangerous circumstances. In your training you have seen the decades of reports of injuries and deaths from people jumping off bridges and swings into rivers cause it seemed like fun.

You are human and as the days go by you see all kinds of public stupidity as you write up the accident reports. And from time to time, well you just kind of lose your patience and cool and snap at stupid people. You are now a Nazi when you cut down a rope or tell people to have a good time today but not to jump off their cars into rivers, etc.

And sometimes your own anger at their lazy stupidity get the better of you and you bark at people.

How saintly does one have to be to want to be a park Ranger and at the same time do their job without the public calling them names and internet forums hating them?

Are these park Rangers really that bad?

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:07pm PT

Norton writes:

"Are these park Rangers really that bad?"

Not necessarily.

But where real crime is nonexistent, having that many LEOs in a place can make for a really rotten experience.

Around here, and where most people are from, law enforcement is busy with real ( felony ) crime. They are too busy to stop you for doing the speed limit, or for crossing the *fog line* ( whatever the F that is ) to let traffic behind pass. Smoking weed, drinking beer, and sleeping in public doesn't draw the Sheriff's attention either. THEY'RE BUSY.

And you'll never hear of a San Bernardino County Sheriff cutting down a kid's swing, cheerfully or otherwise.

originalpmac

Mountain climber

Anywhere I like

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:10pm PT

If there is any justice in the world they will all fall into deep depressions and die if Lou Gherigs disease. This means you, Scott Jacobs you pig

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:17pm PT

"So boogyboarding and rope swings over irrigation and river canals are legal in your county? Cause somehow I don't think so."

Maybe, maybe not.

Either way, it's not a police problem. The cops around here won't even respond to something like that.

( except maybe to cite the caller for tying up the police phone lines with non-emergency calls ).

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:38pm PT

You are human and as the days go by you see all kinds of public stupidity as you write up the accident reports. And from time to time, well you just kind of lose your patience and cool and snap at stupid people. You are now a Nazi when you cut down a rope or tell people to have a good time today but not to jump off their cars into rivers, etc.

Time to find another job.

A modern LEO is supposedly an expert in confrontation reduction, in cooling things down, in reducing stress. This is the most basic and fundamental skill they bring to the table. Yes, I will grant that when there is an immediate safety issue, aggressive action is justified. But when a swing has been present for YEARS?

In my job, I've run into all sorts of bizarre and idiotic people. Does this mean that it's ok for me to snap, and forget to leave a tool inside their belly?

If someone can't do their job properly, they should find another job.

WBraun

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:47pm PT

Ha Ha Ha LOL

The clicker is giving ya all a tooling. LOl LOL LOL

And doctors should leave the tool inside the belly so that next time it goes wrong the tool will be there and you can fix yourself ...

No?

Heh heh heh ....lol

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:48pm PT

Have fun pissing away your life and your happiness fighting the tool.

Or just smile and wait for them to leave.

It's really not difficult to avoid getting their attention in the first place, all while doing whatever the heck you want.

The kids will take care of themselves. Sounds like they learned a valuable lesson, just like I learned.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:51pm PT

Bullwinkle was right. Idaho and "Kali" in the same post?

No. really, Stay out of the damn river. This is native Idaho trout. Don't even put your fool hand in the water.

Whats it take to get someone to be safe? "Re-introduce" these into Kali waters, I think your population might get the idea. (actually, I think its a sturgeon). Might reduce your local water death rate. Or not. Darwin Rules.

Hi Rox, Pates brother from another mother.

Evel

Trad climber

Nedsterdam CO

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:59pm PT

A few years back I was tooled at Chasm lake near the base of the Diamond. The LEO (gun-belt and all at 12,000+) demanded to see my backcountry permit. I told him that it was on my partners pack, just like it's supposed to be, and that said partner was ahead of me at the base of the wall. "Well go get him and bring him to me!" I refused and was given the third degree for not obeying an order. I calmly asked for his name and wrote a complaint upon my return to the cabin/station at the parking lot.
Next day I got a phone call from the head ranger in the park. He assured me he'd get to the bottom if it.
Never heard back from him, but also have not seen that ranger ever again and have been treated with courtesy by all RMNP rangers since. (not sure how they'd all know me, but whatever)

In some cases, and I believe this is one, the pen is mightier than the sword. File a complaint. It's very bad for PR and heads will roll.

Just my 2

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:17pm PT

why was Rox banned?

he seems a pleasant enough guy

monolith

climber

SF bay area

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:22pm PT

RJ made a mockery of the sobriety thread. Made it all about him. LEB chimed in too. Both were booted. That's a thread you don't fool with.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:27pm PT

also, threats of violence. Don't forget his typical MO; post incessantly, increasing level of hostility and anger, culminating with him threatening violence to those who disagree with him. Oh yeah, tons of homophobia / gay-bashing. The guy is like herpes. Always sad to see him crawl out from under his rock and start posting again.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:30pm PT

you can see pebbles 300 yards downstream in that portion of the merced.
so hitting something with your noggin is an invalid argument and just an excuse to be a tool.

as far as damage from silt, compare a bridge jump to the floods,

kids record everything, their brains are like sponges, so you treat them nice during the formative years in order not to leave permanent scars, i bet those kids will have that negative crap on their hard drive for the rest of their lives, which will be recounted many times among friends which will add to the bad rep that the yosemite tools already have,

wanna save lives? put one of those tools up at the waterfall where everybody dies.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:42pm PT

How ya been, Lance? I for one have missed arguing with you and your sunny demeanor.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:55pm PT

Lance, you really need to quit repressing your gay urges. I know that you are mad at yourself for being attracted to men, but it is ok. Us straight people are not judging you. It is painfully obvious that you are gay. Just go with it; you will probably feel better.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:57pm PT

What is nice and where do I buy it?

i don't know about "nice," but polite and respectful constitute two elements of good advocacy. I, for one, tend to listen poorly to someone whose opening argument insults me.

While the LEO's reported actions -- particularly regarding the children -- certainly sound quite excessive, I, too, share Norton's concern. People remain human. (Is this sufficiently Yogi Berra-like, e.g. "They pay you cash, which is just as good as money.")?

We all seem to expect perfection from those around us, and feel particularly mistreated when we don't get it. I think our unrealistic expectations of perfection -- particularly expectations of perfection from ourselves -- lead to poor mental health, because I've seen so much of it among lawyers and climbers I know.

I certainly see no harm in letting off some steam on this forum, or in this thread. Had this happened to me or to my children, I almost certainly would write a (polite, but not nice) report to Park authorities. But the general insults of LEO's I've read on this thread, and the unrealistic expectations of perfection from people who go into that line of service, strike me as unhelpful.

John

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:13pm PT

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:24pm PT

Not yet, but he'll be deactivated soon... just not soon enough. Run along, Lance. The manonmanlove.com forum misses you

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:25pm PT

dude, I can't possibly be attractred to men, I got so many men in my life, I have slept with so many in small tents whay off in the woods. So much opportunity. And I got No doubts, men STINK. Dirty, smelly nasty vulgar men, laying next to me for day after day after day, damn, I have no idea how I stood it.

and there you have it

Rox lays out the REAL reason the Boy Scouts are hurting for membership......

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:29pm PT

JE has us back on track, at least for a short spell.

Play the Lazlo Toth,(aka my mentor, Father Guido Sarducci), game with these guys, except go for the proverbial PR jugular vein and get all this on record. The old "write a letter, get a letter."

Seriously. The NPs has to attend to these complaints and you can play general havoc with someones career if they are indeed being a first class as#@&%e. Oh lord not Ellis Island. Can you imagine giving a bunch of New Yorkers sh#t about jumping off a stupid bridge.

Oh Claude where are you in our hour of need?

dirtbag

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:59pm PT

Who, besides me, thinks Idaho should be turned into a giant wolf preserve, where the Feds can freely tool anyone who harms them?

Captain...or Skully

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:03pm PT

That freak doesn't represent Idaho in any way. Just more drift.

FRUMY

Trad climber

Bishop,CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:13pm PT

dirtbag I'm with you.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 25, 2013 - 08:22pm PT

Geez guys, Ranger Interaction 101;

when ranger approaches smile and very obviously look at the name tag. Be polite but reticent, for example when the ranger says, "What's up?" he is only trying to get your mouth moving; just smile and shrug.
Address him by his surname, and be mildly offended if he fails to offer the same respect.

You are obliged to ID yourself, but any other discussion can be instantly curtailed by skillful use of a magic word;
"I don't think I have done anything wrong, but if you think I have broken the law you should be talking to my attorney so that he can explain it to me."
If he responds with something like, "Well I'm just trying to figure out what is going on here." then repeat your previous line (sometimes the magic has to sink in).

Here is a trick, but it can backfire if they are too ornery.
If you are not in the process of driving or in the presence of your vehicle, then for all he knows you took the bus.

If you have a current passport then you can use it as ID but refuse to surrender it to anyone other than a customs agent. A federal LEO can only seize your passport IF he arrests you.
Ask if you are under arrest. Say that you have seen ranger that hold passports "hostage" to control people they talk to, and you are willing to exhibit your passport for his inspection but that it is not a braille document.

Having talent at brinksmanship helps.

Having a good lawyer helps too.

SalNichols

Big Wall climber

Richmond, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 09:26pm PT

Jeez Louise, did someone just get released from Atascadero?

Deekaid

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 09:34pm PT

where is the op in this dopey f*#king thread?

Deekaid

climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 09:52pm PT

it really is the perfect troll. it has everything cops kids a bridge a river it could only be better if the cops kicked the guys un- leashed dog into the water

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 25, 2013 - 10:00pm PT

Like Toker V. says, you are obligated to identify yourself when a cop asks.

But you need not hand him any documents. Just tell him your full name and birthdate. If he can't find out what he needs to know from that, he's up to no good.

Risk

Mountain climber

Olympia, WA

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:00am PT

How many times are we going to hear these stories? I have been on both sides of this situation, as those here who know me are aware. Even worn those squeaky and polished Pivetta 5’s and a duty belt to the morning briefing in the Valley. I’ve also been rousted from a VW van at midnight in Curry Parking lot with the lights in my face, and had a horse patrol ranger stare down at me, OB at 6AM. There’s very few excuses for what happened. Such a discovery should have been turned into a positive educational encounter instead of a negative LEO confrontation. I used the positive tactic with great success – once I caught some kids camping at Boothe Lake near Vogelsang with a fire, even though fires there are prohibited. When I sprung out of the darkness into their illuminated camp, the kids all stood up and started to put the fire out, but I said not to – to let it burn down to white ashes instead of charcoal, and to enjoy it for what’s left. I took that opportunity at fireside to tell the story why fires are disallowed there, and what my job was all about. I asked them to clean it up with no trace in the morning. When I returned, the place was immaculate, as if no fire had ever been lit there.

Two or three summers later I encountered a backcountry campsite somewhere else in the general area, and asked for their permit. I complemented the group on their low impact campsite, food storage, etc. A member of the group spoke up and came forward as one of those at the illegal campfire at Boothe Lake. He iterated how much he appreciated my talk that night and how it changed his thinking on no trace backcountry camping. So, the tone one sets at these encounters can make a long and lasting impression, and sometime an impression that can be passed around. Those LEO’s at the bridge left a sour impression on all present, which was unnecessary, damaging, and against the common good. I too can recall that sourness from my “local file” encounters in the park. Such tools always seem to get assigned to YNP. I wish it would stop. Write the letter.

Jingy

climber

Somewhere out there

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:12am PT

I would totally agree with throwing these fakes from the bridge and making a dash for it.
F*#k'em.

Dick LEO's are no LEO at all…. They're just dicks

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:17am PT

That seems to me like that's the way it's supposed to work, TMJ.

So tell me. WHY are bad attitudes tolerated for even one second among law enforcement?

I guarantee you, if the kid taking orders at Jack In The Box snaps at a customer - no matter how many stupid drunks he had to serve on the Friday night shift - he's OUT of a job. Immediately. No questions asked. Why can't law enforcement be held to the same standards as the kid working at the taco stand?

And what's up with the sneers on the faces of cops these days? Why the forced frowns? Couple the forced frown with the bad attitude shades cops like to wear, and you wonder why folks you meet are suspicious of you - at best - and evasive otherwise.

Would it kill you LEO guys to SMILE? You certainly have plenty to smile about. You draw a six-figure paycheck today, with a multi-million pension waiting for you to retire ( at 50 years old ). Smile! People will smile back.

Sneer ( with your forced frown and your bad attitude sunglasses ), and you bring out the worst in people.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:37am PT

even the shuttle bus drivers are bad news, one time a guy got off and left his hat on the seat, so i grabs it and hop off and run it back to him, there was a lot of traffic so the bus was moving slow, so i jogged after it to get back on to rejoin my friends, took me about 2 miles, the guy can see me in the rear view trying to catch up, but he don't stop, finally caught him at the bus stop, got a standing ovation from all the riders but just a sneer from the fat f*#k driving the bus,

john hansen

climber

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:17am PT

TM Jessie.

Ah,, that all LEO could have your attitude..

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:07am PT

jeez, another fuzz lover,

Bargainhunter

climber

Jul 26, 2013 - 06:24am PT

"...El Cap Pirate. F*#k the tool. We will base jump when we want..."

grant farquhar

Trad climber

bermuda

Jul 26, 2013 - 08:51am PT

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jul 26, 2013 - 09:28am PT

Thanks for that response Jesse. realistically, I suspect that what we are seeing here is the dictum: "Bad news travels faster than good News". It only takes one bad encounter to forget the last 5 positive ones a person has had.

Al_Smith

climber

San Francisco, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2013 - 09:57am PT

Great post Jesse. That's exactly what I was hoping to convey (perhaps not in my original rant, but in the subsequent comment I posted later on page one.) I wish all Park Rangers approached their role with your attitude, especially when encountering a non-threatening situation.

While it's conjecture on my part, I am nearly 100% certain that had the rangers taken a page out of your book and explained the danger and also the now understood issue of displacing silt (although I can't see how a few jumps is really any different from thousands of people swimming and splashing about daily in the Merced...but I digress) then the children and I would have a) learned something, and b) had a rational reason to desire to comply with the regulations. When respect is given, it fosters a climate of wanting to help each other. Mutual understanding created through calm, polite dialogue promotes a workable situation. All those three Rangers did on Saturday was piss a bunch of people off, who in turn wanted nothing more than to defiantly resume the misbehavior as soon as they departed in what is an all-too-human desire to resist being controlled or tormented by authority figures.

To those who have suggested I lodge a written complaint, I will be doing so today. I don't have the names of the three Rangers, nor would I want them to lose their jobs (or the like) as I'm sure they also do a lot of good in the Park and as many have said, they may have just been having an outrageously bad day or some other mitigating factor. With that in mind, the tone and spirit of my letter will be less ascerbic and more philosophical re: the nature of Ranger and visitor interactions. I will describe unemotionally what occurred and request a change in style of Ranger enforcement. It will all just amount to a hill of beans, but I'd like to know that I at least spoke up and didn't just sit back and say to hell with giving a damn about how people are treated by our public servants in our national parks...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 26, 2013 - 10:37am PT

You can obviously write well.

Perhaps it can make some difference.

Maybe even a link to this thread so that their bosses appreciate that ripples in the pond can reach far shores.

Al_Smith

climber

San Francisco, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2013 - 10:45am PT

Thanks Toker.

If I hear back from the NPS - even in standard boilerplate format - or anything else constructive happens, I'll be sure to post it up here.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 26, 2013 - 10:50am PT

Rangers and doctors would seem to be similar in that they often lack training in dealing in a human and an appropriate way with the people they are paid to interact with.