I have lost faith in America (OT)


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Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:48am PT
And many Americans have that imaginary friend sans the values.

Jul 12, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
There's no imaginary friends except the ones one makes up.

All my friends I've met and are real.

What kind of bullsh!t are you guys projecting and making up again now?


Trad climber
Lander, WY
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
I subscribe to this quote form a letter of George Kennan from 1984:

"One's relations with one's country, like the relations amoung intimates, are always complicated; but I conceive myself to have loved my own...I am now inclined to see my country much the way that I see Russia (in the historical sense): namely, as a politically unsuccessful and tragic country, but one capable of producing out of its midst, from time to time, remarkable literary, artistic, and musical intelligence, politically helpless and always vulnerable to abuse and harassment at the hands of the dominant forces of the moment."
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:09pm PT

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Dean's "imaginary friend" is OK with me. So is Dean. Even though I don't have one. He's got as much right to his beliefs as I do to mine. Even though atheism is the only true belief (irony/sarcasm/self mockery intended)

You can blame the downward spiral directly on Conservatives, and the Conservative Supreme Court.
Let's go back a little further to Reaganism when the Religious Right was allowed and enabled to start inserting Their Christian Religion into American politics and governance. In direct violation of the 1st Amendment. (We've had this debate before. Some time ago on the atheists (or was it the Christian) thread I debunked the claims that Jefferson meant the 1st Amendment to be interpreted liberally.)

The 1st Amendment came about precisely because the Colonies and the first united states contained all religions, including significant numbers of Jews, and other non-Christian religions. They had seen and were watching the divisiveness in Europe over religion. Protestant England vs Catholic France/Italy for just one example. Many of their forefathers had come here precisely to escape religious persecution. In their wisdom they decided the Constitution should have a guarantee of religious freedom and the only real way to enforce that was to Keep ALL Religion out of government.

In God We Trust only became our "motto" when Eisenhower was pushed there by the anti-Communism (atheist Communists) sentiment whipped up by Joe McCarthy.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782.
So please tell me, in WHOSE God do we trust? This is precisely the problem.

Remember E pluribus unum? From many comes one. Including religious/non religious.
We have strayed from that basic understanding and it will take us some time to get back. I do believe this country is intelligent and diverse enough to find it's way again. Perhaps not in my lifetime.

So hang in there bluey, we are all being tested.

quotes from Wikipedia

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Just because a life of faith in God doesn't work for you...you do not have to discount it for others.

I can assure you...ALL of my friends are VERY real!

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Dr. F
Right On

Cragman: didn't intend to demean your faith. I respect it. I believe THAT's what the 1st Amendment means.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
Just because a life of faith in God works for you...you do not have to promote it for others.

Wasn't there a story recently where a good christian was helping someone in need, only to turn it into an uncomfortable situation by insisting the person in need turn to God. That's pretty pathetic.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Ht, it seems to me insofar as you're one to appreciate nuances, nuanced meaning, otherwise the value of drawing smart distinctions in thought and writing - esp as they come into play in our politics, societies, laws and lives - you could do a better job distinguishing between (a) respecting one's right to his faith and (b) respecting the faith. It is a real distinction with a real difference. Substantive gains could be made, it seems to me, if more people bothered enough to take on the difference - as a principle, even as a contagious meme.

I certainly respect Spliter's right to his faith. But to respect his faith (or Go-B's or Cragman's or Blue's) when it supports so much ignorance and barbarism (leftovers from the bronze age) is something else - it's just baseless if not nutty negligent.

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Ask Yasiel Puig what he thinks of the USA. But don't bother asking him
his opinion of the press - he's gotten up to speed on that faster than he
gets to first base.

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
That is definitely fact. Blueblocr is not bluering, I've met Blueblocr and the dude has been to my house (also have met Bluering in passing).

Not that Blockr's lunatic jesus ramblings are my thing, but nevertheless he is an actual person, not a Bluering sock puppet.

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
"Just because a life of faith in God works for you...you do not have to promote it for others."

The only way I "promote" my faith in God....is by living it. If someone is curious and asks...of course I share with them what I believe.


Trad climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
1) I have met both Bluering and BlueBlockr. They are two different people.

2) I heard a story about a month ago on NPR which was about the Food Stamps program. It debunked several of the "Conservative Talking Points" which currently would have us believe the program is taking down the USA, but the point I was very surprised on was that the fact is that for every dollar spent in Food Stamps, something like $1.89 is gained in the economy(farmers making foods which would not be needed, trucking companies which would have less deliveries and thus less people on the payroll, stores which would hire less people to work due to a lessened need for employees, since those on Food Stamps wouldn't be part of the equation.)

So, yes, maybe Food Stamps IS a subsidy in this country, but along with helping people who earn below a specified threashold to have healthier food choices, the subsidy supports MANY people who work in the distribution chain which relies on food products. Take away the Food Stamps program, and the job force shrinks to accommodate the reduced production.

Apparently, it is actually a pretty hefty mechanism for growth of productivity in this country. If those "Good, Hard-workings American" who works 40 hours at the Safeway, toil in the fields, haul goods cross country, lose their job because of the reduced production - what does THAT do to the health of this country?

It seems that we like to believe very complex formulas are very simple, and it behooves us, if we really DO care about our world, to do the best we can to educate ourselves.

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
The "conservative" opposition to the Food Stamp program is interesting.

It is much like their opposition to a minimum wage in the United States.

Simply put, it really really bugs them that some Americans, even the very poorest, are geting "something for nothing" from the taxpayers, specifically "working" taxpayers.

This is the same group that opposed the creation of Social Security in 1938 and Medicare in 1965 when they screamed and accused FDR and Johnson of being Hitler.

And the Patient Protection Act (Obamacare) really sets them off, because again, they see it as a means for poor people to have, gasp, healthcare without paying the high individual plan policy payment that they do.

Social climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
I have lost faith in America

That works out well, because America has lost faith in you!


Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Yes, your distinction is correct.
My meaning was I respect Cragman's faith as he appears to practice it. I can respect a man/woman in spite of their religion.
There's plenty to not respect in most religions' past and present behavior as a whole. That doesn't condemn all their teachings nor all their participants.

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
I live in a condo complex for going on 10 years and personally know 10 or more people on a first name basis. I just talked to one guy, Cabe, for about 15-20 minutes and have known him for 3-4 years. Not one of those people know that I'm a Christian, the subject never comes up.

I did let one neighbor, who is a JW (Jehovah Witness) know, in one simple sentence, that I believe Jesus is God (they don't). End of discussion, end of her coming to my door. I still see her around, but she rarely says anything to me. I did give my manager, a lady who has become a good friend, a Christian tract a couple years ago. She never said a thing about it other than she read it. The subject hasn't come up since. I never approach anyone, unless they approach me first. I do occasionally hand someone a tract, but that is pretty rare these days.

I was involved in a street ministry back in the 80's, talked to 1,000's of peeps, gave them all a tract. But in most cases, I never mentioned anything about Christ until I was about to leave ( i simply gave them a tract about salvation) and said goodbye. My actions spoke for themselves. People needed help with food, or whatever. Some simply wanted to talk.

Many were prostituting themselves to get by, men and women, mostly teens as young as 12-13. Never once did I/we tell them what they were doing was wrong. They already new. Never preached to them. We let them know how much God loved them and had a better plan for them. That was it. If they had questions, like people on this forum, we would try and answer them. If the didn't we simply left it at how God loved them just the way they were.

There are millions of Christians doing good works in the name of Christ all over the world. Digging wells, fixing cataracts, etc, paying for schooling (i sponsored a young girl in Africa for just a few dollars a day for several years, when i was working, through World Vision, i still have her picture and drawings she use to send me, breaks my heart to look at them).

Micronut went to Nepal and offered his services, fixed many dental problems, in the name of Christ. Those people aren't pressured to do anything, it doesn't work that way. We simply give them the good news that God loves them and wants them to know and love Him. Usually nothing is said, it is simply obvious through actions, they know who we are.

edit: regardless of anything i have said, i still love America and its people, its my home. but i love all people, because God loves all people throughout the world, much more than any of us can know!

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
It seems to me that criticizing someone here for their faith or any other personal characteristic (no matter what that might be) without actually meeting them in person, is extremely shallow.

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Well said

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Well put, Splitter!

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