I have lost faith in America (OT)

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bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 10, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
I don't blame people for being stupid, but I do hold them responsible when they make the same mistake twice.

Too many people have lost sight of what we were, and are. Saddening to me.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
do us the favor then, kill yourself instead of promoting the worest actor taking the great cut that the corruption you promote affords!






GOP Rep. Who Receives Millions in Federal Farm Aid, Calls for Billions in Federal Food Stamp Cuts

Rep. Stephen Fincher, latest in long line of wealthy right wing hypocrites, cites Bible as reason for slashing aid to needy...

By Ernest A. Canning on 7/8/2013,
Before their recess for the July 4th holiday, the U.S. House rejected what has, for decades, been largely a no-brainer for the United States Congress: the federal farm subsidies bill.

This year, however, with a Congress as dysfunctional as it has ever been, even that legislative "gimme" has been stymied, for now, by the far Right Republican caucus hoping to slash even more of the food stamp benefits included the bill, and by progressive Democrats furious about cuts to the federal food assistance program that the GOP-controlled House already managed to write into it.

Before the break, the bill was defeated by a 195 to 234 vote margin in what served as a humiliating embarrassment for House Speaker John Boehner. But the $939 billion bill --- which includes both subsidies to farmers (mostly to "Big Ag") and federal food stamp program appropriations --- will soon be coming back, whether Boehner likes it or not.

And, before its return, the hypocrisy embedded in the "Tea Party" caucus' opposition to the bill needs to be highlighted. That hypocrisy is almost certainly best exemplified by one Rep. Stephen Fincher (R-TN).

Even the ordinarily staid New York Times was taken aback by the level of Fincher's hypocrisy that emerged when he quoted the Bible as justification for slashing food stamp benefits for the poor. He claims that assistance, somehow, amount to theft.

But the facts of Fincher's argument are even more embarrassing than that. The Times notes that Fincher himself has "collected nearly $3.5 million in subsidies from 1999 to 2012" in federal support for his 3,000 acre family farm.

"In 2012 alone, the data shows, Mr. Fincher received about $70,000 in direct payments, money that is given to farmers and farmland owners, even if they do not grow crops."

Even more remarkably, his argument in favor of cutting $20 billion in food stamps came during a debate over the bill in a U.S. House sub-committee which voted to increase subsidies to farmers by $9 billion in the wake of last year's record drought. That, of course, was before the reality of his own reliance on federal funding for his family farm was brought to light by the media...


During debate on the farm bill in the House Agriculture Committee last week, Mr. Fincher was one of the biggest proponents of $20 billion in cuts to food stamps in the legislation. At times he quoted passages from the Bible in defending the cuts.

"We have to remember there is not a big printing press in Washington that continually prints money over and over," Mr. Fincher said during the debate. "This is other people’s money that Washington is appropriating and spending."

When later called out by the media for accepting millions in federal subsidies, even while using the bible to call for slashing aid to children, the disabled and the elderly, among others, Fincher, a "Tea Party" favorite, used some sleight of hand to (sort of) deny the charges.

Tennessee's Commercial Appeal quoted his rebuttal this way:

"That amount is false. It's a lie," he said Friday, explaining that he typically receives between $170,000 and $200,000 a year in subsidies. "A lot of that (subsidy) money is loans that are repaid back through the cotton program and that money doesn't actually end up in my pocket."
Actually, The New York Times and other national media understated the size of Fincher's government largesse. In addition to the $3.5 million in federal farm subsidies he personally received, Fincher applied for and received a $13,650 grant from the TN Department of Agriculture --- a grant which was subsequently the subject of a "state inquiry because the [farm equipment] purchased with it was reported sold by Fincher within three years of purchase, potentially a violation of the grant's requirements." Fincher's father also "received a $13,650 grant under the same program in...2009."

According to Wikipedia (citing Politics Daily, the Memphis Commercial Appeal and Washinton Post), Fincher is a seventh generation family farmer and the managing partner of Fincher Farms. "The company has received $8.9 million in farm subsidies over the past decade."

At present, the bulk of farm subsidies, the product of New Deal era legislation originally designed to stabilize agricultural prices and to prevent the bankruptcy of small family farmers during times of economic distress, go to the huge agricultural conglomerations. Where the Fincher family is basking in government-supplied largesse, 80% of farmers receive annual subsidies of less than $5,000.

In fact, there are cases where significant subsidies have been received by those who are not even in the business of farming. Consider the case of investment broker Charles Scwab, who, as reported by Jim Hightower in the aptly named Thieves in High Places, is the proud owner of Casa de Patos, "1,500 acres of picturesque wetlands in Northern California." Schwab grows rice on the land, not for harvesting purposes but because the rice attracts ducks. Schwab is one of those rich folks who likes to invite friends and clients to go duck hunting.

Schwab, Hightower reports, has no intent to harvest the rice, but that doesn't prevent this man with an estimated $4.7 billion net worth from collecting $500,000/year in federal farm subsidies because he does not market the rice.

Hightower's Thieves in High Places, in touching upon the poverty wages of Wal-Mart workers, exposed the fallacy behind Fincher's reliance upon a Biblical passage to argue against federal food stamp benefits. The passage reads: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."

The truth, however, is that many Americans, including many hard-working Wal-Mart employees, are forced to seek food stamps to feed their children because a business that has allowed the five member Walton family to accumulate more than $100 billion in personal wealth doesn't pay its workers a livable wage.

According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, the failed House bill that Fincher supported would have eliminated free school lunches for 210,000 children who had the misfortune of having been born into low income families.

Fincher's hypocrisy finds its antecedent in the laissez-faire mythology that emerged during the Gilded Age --- that period covering the later half of the 19th Century and early 20th Century marked by a gaping wealth disparity, domination of governmental institutions by America’s first class of billionaires, and the self-serving delusion maintained by many whose wealth was acquired through inheritance and governmental largesse that they were actually "self-made" men.

The dominance of that first class of billionaires was insured by huge grants of public funds and property. This was especially true for the railroads, which received millions of acres of public lands from Congress. Instead of companies investing their own funds, railroads were given vast tracks of public lands, the private sale of which could be used to finance construction.

In the 21st Century, men of privilege, like Fincher and Schwab, readily gobble up tax breaks, direct payments, and other massive government subsidies for themselves, and then respond to the plight of those left behind by hypocritically claiming that programs to prevent children from starving amount to theft.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=10044
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
Losing your faith is easy and good, losing your belief is something else all together...

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
Same as it ever was.

Same as it ever will be.

Don't elect him. Elect me.

Politards, I have no faith in your "concern," either.

You begin by flapping your tongues about a big problem that is out of our hands.

Then y'all begin sniping.

Who really cares to hear and argue over such crap?

All you got is a vote.

Use yours wisely, leave mine the hell alone, thank you.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
Jimmy, maybe I should re-state. I'm saddened at the current state of America. We used to be bold, innovative, and willing!

Now we seem to just want someone to cuddle with and feed us. It disturbs me. And others.

This sh#t will not stand. I have faith in Americans, not because of God necessarily, but because Americans always finish the formula. We figure out how to do shit!

Maybe God does help us out sometimes, we thank Him for that. It's time to rise up and make North America grand again~~~

(then Jim can be happy too!)
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
This number was written for you Blue !

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
got anything to base these fool beliefs on beyond the comic books you clutching have turned into rags blue?
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:05am PT
people like YOU are standing in the way of PROGRESS Bluey!!!

the U.S. has always been progressive...but some people want to hold us back...

If we all pull together in one direction as a country we can and will succeed...divided we fall--did you forget that---who is dividing us on issues that are PERSONAL decisions...

to move forward leave PERSONAL decisions out of politics...abortion, gay marriage, religeon...etc.

focus on the things that create jobs and a healthy environment for the next gerneration...

stop hating people of a different skin color...religeon...sexual preference...gender...nationality and we will win on the global stage BECAUSE of our diversity and FREEDOM!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 12:08am PT
got anything to base these fool beliefs on beyond the comic books you clutching have turned into rags blue?


Look up the amount of food-stamp recipients, welfare compared to active workers.

Do you pay attention? It will be unsustainable. Get it?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:13am PT
unsustainable how?

money grows on trees here. for every 5 active job seekers there is one available.

meanwhile, millions of workers are going hungry and children are watching their parents suffer malnutrition.

aint stopping wall street from record profits

aint stopping weapons manufactures from buying yatchs and golf courses



meanwhile your ilk are promoting further cuts to basic services for the poorest of the poor. children and elderly and the disabled

your just pissed because america doesnt allow children to talk jobs in factories nor sell the aged and infirmed to be made into glue

THATS the AMERICA your crying about losing


you tretcherous snake in the grass!


oh ya, we get it
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:17am PT
rSin,

You need to get a job. Your complaints are equally answered with produce, or get the f*#k out of the way.

Have a nice day, Rokjox !
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:20am PT
gotta agree with rSin about the record profits of the american companies...I guess it is ok to shaft the country that provided the infrastructure to build the business that creates the wealth...F the workers and environment basically the for profit business model...IMO


won't see a repuglicon say a word about what the companies took/STOLE from us in the financial crisis though...crickets...PRIVATIZE THE PROFITS...SOCIALIZE THE LOSSES
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 12:20am PT
stop hating people of a different skin color...religeon...sexual preference...gender...nationality and we will win on the global stage BECAUSE of our diversity and FREEDOM!!!


Look, bro, I hate people who wish to destroy our liberty and Constitution. I don't care who they are. Commies, or Islamists, the're all dead before I let my values go, and my values rest in the Constitution of this great country.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:23am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEYwVb-6TeE

Curt
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:25am PT
BlueRingMeDearThing,

I received food stamps before I quit working and got to retire at last.

I seriously needed them and avoided applying for them for a long time from ignorance and pride.

"Oh, you should check out the program, you'll be glad you did." This is what friends and others told me. I took their advice and started getting healthier meals and living better.

So there.

And putting one's faith in one's country means depending on your neighbors and family, but not Uncle, necessarily. Faith means trust and trust is earned. I believe in a higher power and ask for guidance.

This should not make anyone an object of derision, rSin, but it can be taken too far, like these azzhat* politicians claiming divine guidance.


** * ** Thanks, Hossjulia, for introducing me to this fine, fine word, azzhat. With such words we can fight off the "turds."

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 12:29am PT
BlueRingMeDearThing,

I received food stamps before I quit working and got to retire at last.

I seriously needed them and avoided applying for them for a long time from ignorance and pride.

"Oh, you should check out the program, you'll be glad you did." This is what friends and others told me. I took their advice and started getting healthier meals and living better.

So there.


Oh, well, you put me in my place!

(yer part of the problem....)
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:35am PT
Social Security and Unemployment are INSURANCE programs people shouldn't be treating them as a means to retire and have a nice vacation...it is for those who can't provide for themselves...if you are 65 have a job and enjoy it KEEP WORKING!!!

as far as other entitlements go I feel the STRONG PROVIDE FOR THE WEAK...

I like being STRONG enough to not ask for help even though most would in my position...

asking for help doesn't feel right to me BECAUSE I am strong and that is it's own reward...

all of us climbers have lives that most would envy if given the chance to experience it (most of the population isn't fit enough to do what we consider EASY)...

ABUSING our social programs should carry a HEAVY penalty (stealing from us should be hard labor while in prison...growing/harvesting food, building roads, etc. to PAY US BACK...if you take advantage of the system the we should make YOU PAY SUCH A HIGH PRICE that NO ONE WOULD DREAM OF DOING IT!!!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:37am PT
The sniping begins just to see who wins.

Take the last word, you stinking Bird; the name is Bird, Tony Bird, right? In the last word he took delight.

So there back at ya.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:37am PT
Wow, awesome idea for a thread on a climbing forum. No other conversations like this going on on any other threads so it's a good thing we have this one now.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:44am PT
scratch that...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#310581

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:46am PT
Look, bro, I hate people who wish to destroy our liberty and Constitution. I don't care who they are. Commies, or Islamists, the're all dead before I let my values go, and my values rest in the Constitution of this great country.
I'm with bluering on this one. Kill the russkies and sand ni&&ers just for wishing us ill. and anyone who thinks they can burn a flag too. kill 'em all i say KILL EM ALL!!!
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YfvBnTe16o]



face it bluey. your values are shiite (wait, shiite is too nice a word). quick, you may be missing an update of who you're supposed to hate next on fox news
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:03am PT
back in 02'

got dragged to a mega church by a family member who worshipped knuckle draggers... the guest speak was the TBN favorite hal linsey

that piece of sh#t went on and on about how muslims were killing and torturing christians left and right and how the mainstream press was silencing the news about it.

was rediculous how he had the audience of hundreds of 'well' meaning eating out of his had.

sickoning...

so it ended this way. he said "my new book on the subject is at the printer and wont be out for several weeks... so just buy my last book about the threat of the soviet union and READ "muslims" in it wherever its printed russian or communist"


i had to be restrained at that point


christians are idiot

they people they trust make snake oil vendors look like well meaning dupes
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:24am PT
the sites front page is a public property

I said I liked this thread rSin, it is awesome to have yet another place to read your nonsensical, frantic rants that are riddled with grammar that would guarantee you last place in a grade 4 spelling bee. Maybe try posting to a climbing thread or a TR once in awhile? Maybe on just one of your 50 posts a day try to contribute positively towards the climbing community that actually resides here for the climbing content, rather than coming off like a neurotic, over-opinionated fool who knows everything about everything, but has the self awareness level of Paris Hilton. You have some interesting things to say but the delivery is always aggressive & extremely long winded. Yes, the world is a fuked up place, are you going to fix it on supertopo? Probably not, actually definitely not, especially with your current approach.

Ok, I just clicked on your post history & it scares the sh#t outta me. Do us all a favor & maybe once in a while read what you type before hitting the "post this reply" button. Not for mine, but for your own good. If you already do this then maybe read it twice. It is impossible to take your posts seriously even though you are probably the most serious poster on this site.

Lighten the f*#k up & go climbing or snap one off or something.

Have a good night.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:32am PT
i post to many a climbing and ot thread,
im careful to restrict myself from commenting everywhere i think to GIVEN i admit im offputting

that said,


grammer nazi's are the death of any society

its in everyone best interest to smoke them out

eventually if civility susceeds we will make you sew some type of stars on your outter wear so we know whos the REAL threat to our first amendment
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:38am PT
Succeeds
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:39am PT
rSin,

It hurts a Flame to put this question to a poster with such a hot online nom de net, but how in the hell can civility be engendered if we serious types can't take a little hint?

Feck off, mate.

feck·less
/ˈfeklis/
Adjective
1. (of a person) Lacking in efficiency or vitality.
2. Unthinking and irresponsible.


And your gramma sucks & your taste in women is likely appalling (thanks C Hynde).



rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:39am PT
oh and btw,
post history?!?!?

where the hell is this click?
what else is there here i dont know bout?

why doesnt it show you i participate quite glibly in comical banter on subjects my cross doesnt have an opinion about???

oh and, why you gots ta hate on the 4th grade?

ive met lots of real climbers who didnt finish high school...
aint no reason to ignore their honest opinions on subject they can offer valuable contributions pertaining to

eh?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:59am PT
You guys are the pits of the world

Oh oh oh oh, this is no place for me

Feckless.

Finger.

Fate.

Folly.

Peace, Far Out.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:05am PT
taste in women?!?!?!

hows that pertain to my practice of taking what throws themselves under me wheels???


feckless???

this jogs an old memory of a story in the climbing rags,
made a point of illistrating feckless
was something about a canadian alpinist who had a girl and in a sit down with her pop it went like this...

"so how is my daughter in the sac?"

to wit the climber replies,

"i dont know... but them who do say shes great!"



rest assured
im not that accomplished a mountaineer


rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:26am PT
missed this one...
jim said "you need to get a job rsin"


heh. you jack f*#k son of a bitch! i told you i was unemployable.

need to get a job?!?!?!

what makes you think that???
dont you think if i had an honest need, all the christians among my friends and family who love me would have gotten it for me???

the only job ive ever turned down was from those turds at nicro's

sent them two dozen referals and they didnt call a single one. only offered me a job and half of fair wages and the oppertunity to get into the "internal" competition to get spots on the occasional prevailing wages jobsites they worked on.

scumbags

i told em no thanks,
they had one of their stars hold designers call me to pitch
dipshit didnt even know he was an acquaintance of mine

that i partied with his wife while he was off slicing that life

as#@&%e

corperate shill

reminds me,
i need to get around to bolting a few of his ground up horor shows

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:59am PT
Oh Jeez, what can I say. I am sure I have never agreed with Bluering on anything (bar climbing). But on losing faith in our country, perhaps I can understand, but from a different point of view. Bluey is totally right wing to the core, I am a liberal, dichotomies come to mind, if that is the correct word.

Al Gore has shown that he is as a total hypocrite. Bill Clinton rubs elbows with white collar crooks. The triad of Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld are criminals.

Obama? I actually voted at the US embassy in Dublin for Hilary Clinton. But Obama, same old, same old ("Yes we can change" a total crock of bowel movements). Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Obama is another sell-out, I used to like him, but my respect is gone.

And the Repugs? They do not care for America or the common people. And the masturbating Tea Party'ers, frightful.

In Ireland, I used to like Labour leader Eamon Gilmore, but he is a total sell-out. Total.

Politics suck, just like dementia.

There must be a better way.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:03am PT
Only stupid Americans lose faith....I'm banking on the Motor city mad man and the Thrilla from Wasilla...RJ
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:04am PT
bluering said
Look up the amount of food-stamp recipients, welfare compared to active workers.

Do you pay attention? It will be unsustainable. Get it?

What do you think has caused this increase in SNAP recipients?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:11am PT
Well then John, I am stupid.

I still believe in the US (need I iterate 1640, fought the British, second signatory on the Declaration, and Mark Twain, two grandfathers were respected judges), but reforms of a serious kind need to be put in place. I know you from Taco Stand posts and emails to one another, and I know you are an intelligent man, however there is a serious condition in our country.

I may live abroad, but I am American to the core. I'll probably die there some day or have my corpse dumped in the Pacific (no burial, no cremation, let the sea take me).
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:54am PT
I don't blame people for being stupid, but I do hold them responsible when they make the same mistake twice.

Too many people have lost sight of what we were, and are. Saddening to me.

I hope you're looking in the mirror, bluering.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:58am PT
I don't blame people for being stupid, but I do hold them responsible when they make the same mistake twice.

Well then Bluey and Rottingjohnny, I must be the stupidest. I have never made the same mistake twice, more like fourfold or more. I am stupid, plain and simple. Foresight? It would be nice to have.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 06:12am PT
(yer part of the problem....)

Yes, those pesky poor people. How DARE they need help during the worst recession of our lifetime?

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 06:24am PT
I have lost faith in America (OT)....

Too many people have lost sight of what we were, and are. Saddening to me.

Quit watching the evening news. Stop listening to:

1. Talk radio, of any kind. If you hear people talking change the channel or better ditch the radio and listen to an iPod

2. DO NOT LISTEN TO CLASSIC ROCK. Ever. That sh#t is depressing, like funeral home music. I mean seriously depressing. Try not to listen to anything that claims to be rock and roll and is older than say, 10 years.

Those two things alone, do nothing else, and your faith will resume and you'll see that our lovely home of California is a very nice place to be.

Me? I didn't watch the news last night. I spent that time talking to my climbing partner planning this evening's escape to the mountains. Even if the news is blathering on the telly I don't really watch it or pay close attention. Its good to know the weather, occasionally. But even watching your local weather troll is depressing if you do it too much.

You probably think my head is in the sand.... but you know it is not. One can pay attention without paying attention. One can take note of a traffic accident without gawking at it, too. Unless traffic accidents are your business, I counsel that NOT gawking at them is the best possible thing you can do. Gawk at too many accident scenes and that sh#t will mess your head up. I mean consider your average highway patrolperson? Nuff said!!!

Do you understand my counsel? THINK about it before responding. ;-)

Good luck with your lost faith!

DMT
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:05am PT

No damn cat, no damn cradle.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:13am PT
Milktoast, you are crazy blathering on like that. ;-)

You come across as an anti-American Arab terrorist, or at least a Tuolumne terrorist, shut up and go climbing. And if I was there, could I tie in with you?

I have lost faith in California and Tuolumne County, and even Sonora is overcrowded, and I'd bet Twain Harte, Columbia and Cedar Ridge too. So disheartening.

And Ireland is even worse.

So DMT, let's tie in and jump off Atlantis in to the reservoir together. What a way to go. What's the odds of who hits the water first?
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:25am PT
Hope is a good thing. Andy Dufresne

Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:31am PT
just like the rest of us bluering,
you are an ambitious bloke
limping thru realities with a stride
comprised of your genetic input
and the echoes of your upbringing.

as we look around at each other
and misunderstand individual
interpretations
of proper morals and conduct,

our faith flees:
humanity is hopeless,
america is doomed,
and love is a waste of heat.

so we reach for the bottle,
and lament our position within solar dust,

and that liquid runs down the gullet,
enters the bloodstream, which then
delivers poetic angst to the brain,
and the heart, it don't argue with that,
because that organ is the peace-maker within.

keep sharing, man.
i shake my head at your reasoning,
but i admire your willingness
to lay it out on the table.



Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:34am PT
We used to be bold, innovative, and willing!

Steve, you mean bold as in spreading your bigoted bullshit under two fake names instead of using your real name, and then whining when someone calls you on it?

You mean innovative as in strictly adhering to 3 passages of the Bible because you think gays are icky, but not supporting legislation banning the eating of shellfish despite far more passages against that? (It isn't clear if you support legislation that allows slavery, stoning, or acquiring wives through rape, so I used the shellfish example.)

You mean willing as in willing to apply the equal rights set forth in the constitution to ALL people, even if you disagree with their views/lifestyles?

Fuking idiot.


Try not to listen to anything that claims to be rock and roll and is older than say, 10 years.

pfft, Beatles, Stones, Hendrix... DMT just lost mad points spewing that crap. :)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:45am PT
Love it or leave it. So when are you leaving Stevie?

I'll contribute to the plane ticket, provided it is one-way. Saudi Arabia is very conservative, sounds like a perfect fit for you.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:55am PT
i shake my head at your reasoning,
but i admire your willingness
to lay it out on the table.


designating Norwegian as my supertopo politard proxy.

edit: Perhaps 'admire' is too strong a word. you're fired Norwegian.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:58am PT
My racists, bigoted, senile grandpa was willing to "lay it out on the table." Trust me, people who do that aren't always worthy of admiration.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:07am PT
Bluey, you sir are a "Gallant Gallstone".
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:15am PT
pfft, Beatles, Stones, Hendrix... DMT just lost mad points spewing that crap. :)

I can name that song in 3-notes.

Its not the music. Its the listening to it, over and over ad infinitum. It produces troughs in the mind, ruts if you will, the getting out of which may prove quite difficult.

"They're playing our song..."

GET A NEW ONE!!!

DMT
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:20am PT
i can completely empathize
with his ignorance.

i, too extend ill opinion to those whom
differ from me in poise and demeanor.

my counterparts are his political party
(im grossly assuming that bluering subscribes to republican ideals)

and once in a while i scrap, here and elsewhere
with the motherf*#kers.

my words fly,
my fists occassionally swing,
especially when im in my cup.

f*#k it all.
christ and philo and norwegian and
other detractors of blue's song,

we all fall short of ideal

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Its the listening to it, over and over ad infinitum. It produces troughs in the mind, ruts if you will, the getting out of which may prove quite difficult.
Like ol' time religion. Christianity or Islam.

grossly assuming

Grossly? ;)
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:28am PT
either bluering is the greatest troll around, or a blithering idiot.

Timid TopRope

Social climber
'used to be Paradise, CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:37am PT
I 've lost faith in participating in ST political debates. Always circular, mostly uninformed with half baked ideas and half baked truthiness. Pounding my head against the wall just gives me a headache and a big knott.

Naturally, like anyone who enjoys a good train wreck, I'll keep reading them for the laughs.

Try talking politics to me at a real campfire and watch me walk to the other side where I'll prefer the smoke in my eyes to what ever you have to say.
Deekaid

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:39am PT
hey, timid, reread DMT's post. Don't look at the wreck
Timid TopRope

Social climber
'used to be Paradise, CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:42am PT
Deekaid, try rereading my post. I like to laugh.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:42am PT
we all fall short of ideal

But we don't all support denying an entire group of people equal rights based on gender. We don't all do it while cowering behind multiple usernames... although since blurring pals around with psychos like Pat Dollard, I'm kinda wishing I had! The dude is a fuking nut case... "The War Starts Here" is the slogan on his home page.

If I don't live through the next couple weeks, please direct the authorities to Steve and Pat. Thank god I just upped my life insurance policy!!! Now to freeze some jiz.

Peas out
Barbarian

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:42am PT
To all of those who have threatened to leave America if this happens or that doesn't - most notably Rush Limbaugh who said he would leave the USA if the Affordable Care Act was passed: My offer to drive you to the border is still on the table.

I have tremendous faith in the abilty of the people of this country to overcome the foolishness of the Congress, the media, big-business, and various bigots.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:43am PT
Bluring could be Hitler's sidekick
The Liberals, Commies, Jews, blacks, Mexicans, gays are ruining this great Country!
we must unite and eliminate them so us good White Folk can get our Country back...

Boy is he ever misguided, he is aligned with pure evil.
And of course, blames everyone trying to bring this world to a better place as evil.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:46am PT
Dr. F, I know you are not a big fan of the Bible... I read it mostly to see just how hypocritical these "christian" fukheads are... but this one is relevant:


Mathew 7:16

By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

I like most of Mathew 7.

The "christians" who support Pat Dollard ("The War Starts Here") are fuking morans. I honestly feel they are the biggest threat to this country and one of the biggest threats to the world... and as it has been pointed out, they are too stupid to see their hypocrisy and blame everyone else for any and all problems... which brings me back to:

Mathew 7:3-5

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

(hint: the wood in your eye is SIN. It is a far greater sin to promote violence ("The War Starts Here") than to have an intimate, loving relationship with someone of the same sex.)
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:05am PT
i can imagine bluering opening his fridge,
looking for that jar of mayonaise?

though it's deep in the pit, probably behind the
jarred halepenos which is beyond the miralax.

f*#king pissed at the frusterating search,
he begins to issue white noise,
like a mosquito does when near the ear.

humming around the door, the noise increases
in pitch and volume until
the blue lid finally reveals itself.

aggressively grasping the poly carbon jar,
he doesn't even bother to open it,
instead he sinks his exaggerated canines
into the side of the jar and slowly
sucks the juices from the contents,
while behind him,
the egg that he was frying burns to a crisp.

congratulations, bluering.
you have won a years subscription of bad puns!


"the war starts here!"
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:48am PT
St. Patrick? I have a boat, mate. Paddles and a spare life jacket, too.

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:09am PT
"They're playing our song..."

Our song is "Shaft". Wherever we went on our first few dates, they were playing "Shaft" so it became ours. I'm not getting a new one!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:09am PT
Cheese and rice, America is doing great! Everyone is going to get medical care, people who are poor will be fed, and we are doing really well at kicking out the people who want nothing more than to make a buck at someone else's expense!

These are good things!

If you don't see that, Bluering, then I pity you.
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:25am PT
The root problem of all of this is the lack of education in this country. Conspiracy theory? Maybe - but keep on cutting funds for public schools, keep on raising student loan interest rates, yada yada yada, the more uneducated and misinformed our citizenry are, the more ignorant, the quicker they'll swallow every Fox News broadast, religious zealot, fanatic right wing nonesence as gospel. That's the way to keep them in line! Don't educate! Don't enlighten! Don't create an environment of opportunity! Don't create any kind of progressive, modern-thinking environment! God forbid! Just go to church!

The problem isn't "America". The problem is what's being done to America by (insert here) - starts with a G. Ends with a P. Big ZERO in the middle.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:47am PT
Crusher crushed it . . . Our country has been sold down the tubes by those in power bluering. Food stamp roles are not increasing because people are lazy and stupid, it is because they have been growing increasingly desperate in an age of wealth transfer from the former "middle class" to the now ruling "one percent" that control the majority of the wealth. How are you doing compared to twenty years ago? I'd be surprised if you claim that you are better off.

The people who have lost sight of what we were are the greedy, evil bastards (Democrats included), currently bending us over and financially sodomizing us (we the people).
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Bluering's answer to the Food Stamp problem would be to just let them starve, that's what Jesus would do.
It's unsustainable!
Because we sure wouldn't want to raise taxes or raise the minimun wage, think of the billionaires tax burden, it's too high already, no wonder they keep their money safe off shore.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:08am PT
There surely is abuse of the SNAP program, but that only dictates tighter oversight, not abandonment of a program that helps a lot of honest, needy people.
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:12am PT
I normally hate to chime in on "discussions" such as these, b/c I feel that very little (if anything) really gets resolved.

However, I wanted to address this bit of nonsense:

(yer part of the problem....)

Bluering, if you're implying that all food stamp recipients are "part of the problem," then you're wrong. That's just not the case.

I'll provide you an example. Yes its only one example, but I feel its a good example of why no one should paint with broad brush-strokes.

When I was just a wee baby still, and my father was a medical resident at University of Rochester Strong Memorial Hospital, our income was so low that my parents applied for (and received) food stamps to help mitigate the tough circumstances. It was a measure to 'bridge the gap,' if you will. We (my parents and my brother and sister) ate a little better, and were all healthy throughout that time.

Now...fast-forward 30 years: My father has gone on to do more good in this world than you will ever know. By delivering thousands of healthy babies, he's brought more happiness and joy into this world than you could imagine. Additionally, He is one of the original pioneers of minimally invasive laparoscopic surgery in New England. Surgical techniques that have helped COUNTLESS people in HUGE ways. He is highly respected, and well loved in his community.

My point is this: not everyone who needs assistance is trying to bilk the system. Sometimes people just need a helping hand while they're getting up (or back) on their feet. Many of those people will go on to do great things in this country and their communities.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
+1 crusher. A good way to increase the population of uneducated idiots is to make sure every woman who gets knocked up, whether by rape or youthful indiscretion or whatever, brings another person into this world. What happens to that child when the mom can't take care of it? That's their problem.

Obliterate sex education
Oppose birth control programs
Make abortion illegal
Cut welfare programs
Cut education
Give tax breaks to large corporations

Make an army of uneducated slaves for the corporate overlords.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:15am PT
I say we cut food stamps off to all people that vote Republican, since they are voting to stop the program indirectly anyway.
That would save a lot of money, since most of the Food Stamps are going to White people in the South. Lazy fat uneducated white trash that hate the Gov.

Why don't they just get a job, they lazy slackers..
oh, wait, the Republicans shipped the jobs off to China so they can make more profits, and we sure don't want to create Gov. jobs here, because we are broke, and the Gov. can't do anything right anyway

circular logic, round and round as the world spirals down the tubes..
Bluering is the Problem
He is why he lost faith,
and the rest of us have lost faith in the Right Wingers to do anything except do more damage.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Bluering ; would that be north america or south america?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:22am PT
Probably referring to the West Indies
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:24am PT
I'm pretty sure that he's calling the USA America. That would really piss off a lot of my friends who live in other parts of America.

Par for the course with that guy, though.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:26am PT
Note: the rod refers to the rods that used to be under the old time boxcars.

“The bum on the rod is hunted down
As the enemy of mankind;
The other is driven around to his club
And feted, wined and dined.

And they who curse the bum on the rods
As the essence of all that is bad
Will greet the other with a winning smile
And extend him the hand so glad.

The bum on the rods is a social flea
Who gets an occasional bite;
The bum on the plush is a social leech,
Blood-sucking day and night.

The bum on the rods is a load so light
That his weight we scarcely feel,
But it takes the labor of dozens of men
To furnish the other a meal.

As long as you sanction the bum on the plush,
The other will always be there,
But rid yourself of the bum on the plush
And the other will disappear.

Then make an intelligent, organized kick,
Get rid of the weights that crush;
Don't worry about the bum on the rods,
Get rid of the bum on the plush!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:33am PT
A Bluering manifesto
Because we have a very free and open society the commies and foes of this country have many liberties to do as they please. And they should.

However, it is the direct responsibility of the FED to protect the country from foes both foreign and domestic.

Anyway, since the FED is charged with protecting the country from enemies foreign and domestic, shouldn't they go after commies trying to subvertly undermine our country? No, no really. They need legal precedence and some kind of proof. Usually.

During WW2, several German 'soldiers' were rounded up and proven to be spies for Germany. I think the US enlisted the Mafia dock-workers to find these krauts.

They were executed or prisoned.

Eventually McCarthy came around and recognized the commies were indeed around. He would highlighted as a paranoid man even though his assertions were proven to be quite accurate with the release of the Venona Papers.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/711735/posts

McCarthy was right. The Communist Party did exist and was very active in propaganda, including Hollywood.

Anyway, since the FED is charged with protecting the country from enemies foreign and domestic, shouldn't they go after commies trying to subvertly undermine our country? No, no really. They need legal precedence and some kind of proof. Usually.

During WW2, several German 'soldiers' were rounded up and proven to be spies for Germany. I think the US enlisted the Mafia dock-workers to find these krauts.

They were executed or prisoned.

Eventually McCarthy came around and recognized the commies were indeed around. He would be highlighted as a paranoid man even though his assertions were proven to be quite accurate with the release of the Venona Papers.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/711735/posts

McCarthy was right. The Communist Party did exist and was very active in propaganda, including Hollywood.

So...ascribed to the doctrine of Mao's Little Red Book and the doxy of the Venona Papers, many people were brainwashed into communism, peace (ask Mao about that), and the destruction of the family-unit and the American country. That was the sixties and seventies.

I know. Keep laughing, commies.

Then came the fall of the Soviet empire. Not done yet, remember we were already infected with this bizarre mindset of communism (which was socialism back then). The infection took hold in our schools with people actually f*#king teaching that communism a'int that bad!

Communism is kinda "nice" and "peaceful", and everybody gets along with Jeremy. It was the idealic system. And those corporate, capitalistic pigs were causing all the problems, right???

So, the damage had alreaday been done by Reagan's term of bringing the Soviets down. But the mold of communism had been growing well before that. It prospered in the dark, behind the scenes, growing larger in the dark in the guise of liberalism.

Some practioners knew what it was, and others were just 'useful idiots', to use the lingo of Lenin. The were usually the younger accolites, usually recent college grads or poorer people who couldn't comprehend how they were being used to achieve a goal well outside their sphere of comprehension.

Then came the f*#king neo-cons and progressives.

Clinton was pretty mundane except for Bosnia. Wrong war for the wrong reasons. Al Gore was a joke too.

Bush was a joke too. Good war staff, just spent like a drunk Democrat while appointing more Goldman Sachs chumps o rule over our currency, and as a result, our economy.

Then came the Marxist-in-Chief, Obama. During te Dem debates I kept screaming at the TV that, "He can't do that, it'd bankrupt the country!!!".

Sure enough.

The progressives are the new communists. But you can't nail doen new ideologies plainly. I call them neo-Marxists. They are very dangerous to personal liberty and freedom. They want to tell you how to operate your life. From food consumption, which grocery bag to use, which bulb to use in yer lamp, to which pets are acceptable to buy.

It is insane. Yet you'd call me insane.

Bluering

apparently Bluering hasn't got the memo that states liberals are not the same as Commies.
poor fool


McCarthy was right. The Communist Party did exist and was very active in propaganda, including Hollywood.

Can you say anything More stupid?? I think not.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:36am PT
Where's the guaranteed annual income (GAI)?

Where's the free public housing for all?

Where's the recreation and leisure time-based society?

Where's all the stuff they promised me in 1962? I'm still holding my breath!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
Where's all the stuff they promised me in 1962? I'm still holding my breath!

That's quite the cry of pain... from BELMONT.

Lol.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
"How to increase the population of uneducated idiots"

Interesting it is, noteworthy it is, that this might be the objective of some groups and individuals in our world and our time.

Evolutionary strategies of Nature never cease to impress. "Just kick it up, throw it out there, see what sticks."
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
^^^
That's even idiotic for FreeRepublic, which is pretty much the bottom rung sewer of RWNJ forums.

Hey there Joe McCarthy Jr., the "FED" is the Federal Reserve system, aka the central bank of the U.S. They got f*#k-all nothing to do with "protect from enemies", their dual mandate is to maintain low inflation and full employment (which are contradictory goals at times).


But it is good to see that you don't save up all your fever dream ravings just for us, the rightwing nutjob brigades gets their portion of BlueBabble too.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
loss of faith seems like a good motivation to move on,,,from a marriage, a religion, America..
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
The question that rises in my mind every time I hear someone complain about the direction their country has taken is: "What did you do to help keep your country as good as you think it should be/could be?"

Usually, the answer is "Huh?"

It reminds me of being on an expedition, and hearing complaints from a guy who has done the absolute minimum. Never taken the sharp end on tough ground. Never been the one to volunteer to clean the filthy cooking pot. Never said "I'm gonna go down and bring up a second load."

This doesn't apply just to Bluering, but since he's the one who is complaining about how the US is going down the tubes, I ask him: "Did you do anything to help? Did you offer yourself for military service? Did you get involved in politics? Did you volunteer to campaign for the causes you believe in?"

Because if you didn't get out there fighting and taking risks for what you believe in, you have no right to whine.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Kachooo! Excuse me I had to sneeze, where's the tissue? Bluey, read directly above.^^^

I tried to volunteer for service to protect our country, I was even 1A... never happened for various reasons (no convictions, they just did not want a long-haired anti-war hippy who wanted to be a medic).

Ghost, remember Jerome Waldie? And George McGovern? I bird-dogged (politically, not in any other sense... canvassing) for those guys when I was 15-16 or so. Don't regret it. But little good it did.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
Blue, You need to go on a European vacation. It will definitely restore your faith.


Govt's everywhere screwed up. Less so here.



Turn off the damn TV news and you'll be fine.




EDIT: Honnold is doing something about it.







Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
The question that rises in my mind every time I hear someone complain about the direction their country has taken is: "What did you do to help keep your country as good as you think it should be/could be?"

Oh please, spare me! If you're an american you are part of the problem, by definition. I can't help that I was born here. Musta have had good karma ;)

Hey man I have done my part (environmental ed, teaching, writting letters, recycling, boycotting becoming a vegan.

fuk it! Mother fu&^%rs won't listen.

"I stopped trying to make a difference" . . .

Who am I to judge?

I will content myself to be an impartial observer as our society slowly circles the drain.

"told you so, dumbfuks . . . "


John M

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Look up the amount of food-stamp recipients, welfare compared to active workers.

Do you pay attention? It will be unsustainable. Get it?

Yes.. our military is unsustainable.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/19/food-stamps-military_n_3462465.html


(yer part of the problem....)

Yes.. the military is part of the problem. Pay them a living wage you say??? Excellent. Lets pay everyone with a job a living wage.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
John M, that is an interesting article.

It just furthers my opinion that the elite rich are getting richer (read about Anglo Irish's David Drumm - in refuge in the US - and Sean FitzPatrick, and Denis O'Brien, and an Irish musician multi-millionaire, just as examples)...

and most of us are getting poorer.

I will never lose faith in humankind, but there are some chancers out there living off of us/society, no matter what country.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
I never had any faith to lose
So I guess I'm lucky that way
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Govt's everywhere screwed up. Less so here.

Thanks, Spider, for demonstrating that not all here are lost. Reading the reactions to Bluey's post does demonstrate some reason for concern, though:

1. Intolerance of those with opposing views. We seem awfully hasty to condemn those with whom we disagree as hateful, stupid, uninformed or uneducated. We have a very difficult time accepting the possibility that intelligent people can disagree;

2. An unjustified faith in education. If education cured all ills, how come Berkeley is so screwed up? (Disclaimer: I am a graduate of U.C. Berkeley [or, as we like to call it, the University of California]), and I love visiting. I just wouldn't want to live there.

3. A lack of perspective. I wouldn't want to go anywhere that is perfect, because I would mess it up by being there.

Incidentally, I enjoyed reading the quotes from the Sermon on the Mount, but I think W.C. Fields gave the only rational reason for a non-believer to read the Bible: to look for loopholes.

Carry on.

John
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
John M good point about foodstamps and military families. Twas the same in 79-83 when I was enlisted. Many families qualified for foodstamps, especially those living on-base (and not receiving a housing allowance). Them that lived off base often lived in hovels so as to afford, like, food?

Militaries have always been paid minimum wage or lower. Oh society likes to give good lip about patriotism and 'giving back', so long as it doesn't entail giving back a LIVING PAYCHECK.

Oh but those shiny F35 FlyingPigs are so goddamned necessary......

F*#king steams my ass.

DMT

Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
bluering, you should know better than to ever put your faith in people. They are fallible.....they're gonna let you down.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
JESUS! ^^^^^
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Yes cragman, he should have faith in imaginary friends and Santa
We all know that they came through and saved the day every time there was a crisis.

more circular logic
no wonder you guys are so lost.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
I'm not lost at all, Craig...God knows exactly where I am.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Intolerance of those with opposing views

how come Berkeley is so screwed up?

John, am I missing something here?

My late sister was a Bezerkely grad and I climbed a lot at Indian Rock.

It appears that you may, possibly, be the intolerant one with your comments about Berkeley, and to hell that you are a UCB grad.

Concentrate on Turkish genocide of Armenians, and not that Berkeley is screwed up.

Jeez, you went off topic with the Berkeley bit and I went off topic even further. Shame on us, or at least me, as I can't judge you as I do not even know you.

Berkeley is no better or worse than most places in the US. Probably better in my liberal eyes.

As in the film Runaway Jury the character says: "The People's Republic of Berkeley California."

Well, rather that than KKK country. But I am being judgmental.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Dean,

It's your seemingly distasteful opinion of me and my fellow moral, non believing people that raises my ire.

Why not live and let live, rather than judge?

I live a good, honest life, and I don't associate myself with organized religion. Am I going to hell for that?

If so, why?
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Since when did "faith in America" surpass faith in the Lord? We (X'ians, me anyway) were never meant to have faith in anything but the Lord. Like it says, "We are not of this world." including America. All country's eventually belly-up, particularly when they stray way off course. America is a case in point, the writing is on the wall, has been for a long time.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
"We are not of this world."
Really?

Prove it
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I've been there bluering, I lost faith during the Bush years.....but then the big surprise, we elected a black President.....I'm back on board. Will wonders never cease. Bet that helps you go to sleep at night bluey.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Brandon,keep your nose to the grindstone friend,theres always a reason for such rightousness.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
We are not of this world.
Spiritually speaking!!
Dr.F. - Really? Prove it.
Technically impossible to do to a spiritually dead person (you), wasn't who He was speaking too. Wasn't our calling. So, maybe try again at a more appropriate time.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Patrick,

My bad. I should have made it clear that my comments about Berkeley were somewhat tongue-in-cheek, particularly as to the University. The city's politics, however, have created great difficulties for students there, by making housing close to campus rather more difficult to obtain than when I lived there.

I do, however, seriously believe that we place way too much faith in the power of education to make people righteous, or even informed. I see much less respect for free inquiry, academic freedom or free expression in the academy now than when I was an undergrad at Cal 40 years ago, or a graduate or law student at UCLA. Frankly, I'm rather proud of Berkeley (the UC, not the town) in that regard. Its faculty seems intent on preserving at least a semblance of intellectual diversity, often in the face of great hostility from zealots of purity at either end of the relevant ideological spectrum.

John
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Yes, some pretty messed minds made it through Harvard Law School
Rick Santorum, Mitt Romney, Ted Cruz
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
See, the Taco Stand is, or should be, a microcosm, or should that be macrocosm (?) of life.

Many of us disagree or agree, or agree to disagree. Better than most staid climbing forums.

We bounce ideas off each other, without the 'fear' of knowing such ideas are not climbing related. But we still contribute because above all, we are humans more than just climbers.

Climbing is our love, our host, debate our daily bread, so to speak. (Ooops, there goes the Catholic in me, and I am an atheist now.)

But the fact this forum is rich. Being a full-time carer for Jennie, I have a lot of time on my hands, which I try use use to my fullest (and try to bring in extra dosh/cash). I visit (but hardly contribute) to a number of forums (NY Times, Irish Times, Wash Post, Fox, CNN, LA Times, SF Chronicle, Huffington, France 24, a couple right-wing sites to keep my finger on the pulse, etc) but the Taco Stand is the best.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Only in America can this happen:

Credit: lostinshanghai

Admitted 9/11 mastermind devotes prison time to building better vacuum.

Understand Wallie Mart has contacted him and thinking of selling them by the end of the year.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Only in America can this happen:

So rather than gain something useful for mankind, you'd just throw it away. This is what's wrong with the average conservative 'Murkin mindset.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
John, point taken, and I understand your pov. But still, Berkeley is a great town. The politics nowadays, I know little of.

My late brother Mac was arrested at the People's Park demonstrations. I remember a guy who said his name was 'Noboby', "so vote for me, Nobody" for president, Nobody for president, at Peoples Park. Great glorious days for us, and I was just a young liberal teenager.

And BITD I mainly went to Berkeley to (EDIT boulder at Indian Rock) eyeball the North Face fare in the shop on Telegraph Avenue, or the Sierra Designs outlet and eat at Spengers (great seafood).
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/opinion/the-decline-of-north-carolina.html?_r=0

Check out this interesting article.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
When I was at SJSU ('92-'94), Berkeley let people go nude on the streets, if they so chose. One d00d (19) who use to ride his skateboard nude from home to UCB everyday and sit in class nakit. Past kids on the public streets. Some gals started to complain about his sweaty butt on the seat and him not wiping it down afterwards (was an article in the local San Jose paper). Some chicks in cloass had a hard-on for the d00d and were always updating everyone. There was a group that he was associated with that would do nude theater all around the town of Berkely and on the UCB campus (and any other campus that was game). They were wanted to be allowed to actually have sexual intercourse in their productions. Perhaps in the near future, the way thinga are going, eh?

edit: i'm sure it has many good points. dunno, but i would probably live and work there. but, i doubt that i would wanna raise kids there.

one of my profs (PHD) became director of the newly formed ('94) Occupational Therapy Dept (only 3 school in Ca, at the time) at Berkeley, and offered several of us acceptance into the PHD program there. i had been broke so long that i just decided to go to work, plus i was way in debt. and i thought i was to old at 44. probably should have taken him up on it though. i think it would have been a very interesting city. i would have gone into clinical psych, or that was my focus/interest at the time. lol actually i enjoyed tripping aound Berkeley, lots of interesting and fairly genuine people, imho!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
My GF works for a large solar distributor. She's telling me how we import the major portion of our solar panels from China, and that they have a 34% tariff placed on them. Then they found that some were being sold for below cost, those get something like a 104% tariff.

Now companies are going crazy trying to get panels. What'd she say, Taiwan (?) is now beefing up production because they see that distributors need to move away from the Chinese panels.

Certainly, solar ain't going away--it's been on a steady increase.

Question: Why does not the USA manufacture panels on the scale of China? I mean, if we've got a 34% tariff on the ones coming in, we should at least be able to match their costs, no?

Bluey's screaming about folks on foodstamps, all the while there are millions looking for work.

Suggestion: Go the the bank, take out all your money, and buy a clue.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Dean,

It's your seemingly distasteful opinion of me and my fellow moral, non believing people that raises my ire.

Why not live and let live, rather than judge?

I live a good, honest life, and I don't associate myself with organized religion. Am I going to hell for that?

If so, why?




Brandon, I don't recall addressing anyone in this thread but Bluey and Dr. F....where do you get the grounds for the above statements?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Dean, my apologies. I let my temper get the best of me and responded inappropriately.

You're a good man, and I respect you despite our differences.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
We've been trolled.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Brandon, I have the utmost respect for you as well. I don't condemn anyone for what they believe. Interestingly, I am not afforded the same grace here by those who do not share my faith or political leanings.

EDIT: I probably have more "non-believer" friends than those that share my faith...and we get along great!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
Why not live and let live, rather than judge?

I live a good, honest life, and I don't associate myself with organized religion. Am I going to hell for that?

If so, why?

A. Exhibit A.....

Ole Craggy there's never lit into me, nor I him. We're not from the same bench, so to speak, either. He seems a good bloke, pours his heart into the things he does.

Are you going to Hell for that?

Hahhahahahahaha

yer goddamn right you are!!!!111 And I'll see you there, argh!!!!!

DMT
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
A great theologian once said..."Preach God's message always...and if you must...use words."

I simply believe Christianity is gentleness....leading with humility and an attitude of submission...with an awareness of my own sin, and a forgetfulness of the sins of others...leaving condemnation to God, and conviction to His Spirit.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
To get back on track
Faith should have nothing to do with our future

The separation of Church and State is not in question.
It is absolute.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
^ no problemo, AFAIC! it's way to late for America. so, "do as you will" as the great Satanist Alister Crowley preached, right up your (and America's) alley. seriously, i could care less what happens, cuz, its gonna happen anyway, so why fret? started in '63, and it is what it is today. Christians simply need to get their own life in order, before the sh#t hits the fan, here in the good ol' USofA!

btw, SoC&S was meant to keep the government from declaring one church over another, nothing else. The Bible was the primary book used in all public schools right up until the early 1900's.
New England Primer (1880's)
New England Primer (1880's)
Credit: splitter
Boston Primer (1880's)
Boston Primer (1880's)
Credit: splitter
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3mrkmJhXQ1qzfebyo1_250.gif
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
An America with less faith would be an America I would have more faith in.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
indeed
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
bitchslap a vetran today!

he assisted the jackboots keeping you down
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
The separation of Church and State is not in question.
It is absolute.

Amen brother! It nauseates me the way our politards abuse the "God" clause. Invariably they refer to a Judeo-Christian deity that somehow favors the U.S. as a chosen country . . . what hypocrisy.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
I have to agree with that 'could do with less' sentiment when it comes to religious influence in government.

DMT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Oh Jeez, what can I say. I am sure I have never agreed with Bluering on anything (bar climbing). But on losing faith in our country, perhaps I can understand, but from a different point of view. Bluey is totally right wing to the core, I am a liberal, dichotomies come to mind, if that is the correct word.

Al Gore has shown that he is as a total hypocrite. Bill Clinton rubs elbows with white collar crooks. The triad of Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld are criminals.

Obama? I actually voted at the US embassy in Dublin for Hilary Clinton. But Obama, same old, same old ("Yes we can change" a total crock of bowel movements). Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Obama is another sell-out, I used to like him, but my respect is gone.

And the Repugs? They do not care for America or the common people. And the masturbating Tea Party'ers, frightful.

In Ireland, I used to like Labour leader Eamon Gilmore, but he is a total sell-out. Total.

Politics suck, just like dementia.

There must be a better way.


Keep listening to your instincts. Not rhetoric.

Like this;

Quit watching the evening news. Stop listening to:

1. Talk radio, of any kind. If you hear people talking change the channel or better ditch the radio and listen to an iPod

2. DO NOT LISTEN TO CLASSIC ROCK. Ever. That sh#t is depressing, like funeral home music. I mean seriously depressing. Try not to listen to anything that claims to be rock and roll and is older than say, 10 years.

Those two things alone, do nothing else, and your faith will resume and you'll see that our lovely home of California is a very nice place to be.

Me? I didn't watch the news last night. I spent that time talking to my climbing partner planning this evening's escape to the mountains. Even if the news is blathering on the telly I don't really watch it or pay close attention. Its good to know the weather, occasionally. But even watching your local weather troll is depressing if you do it too much.

You probably think my head is in the sand.... but you know it is not. One can pay attention without paying attention. One can take note of a traffic accident without gawking at it, too. Unless traffic accidents are your business, I counsel that NOT gawking at them is the best possible thing you can do. Gawk at too many accident scenes and that sh#t will mess your head up. I mean consider your average highway patrolperson? Nuff said!!!

Do you understand my counsel? THINK about it before responding. ;-)

Good luck with your lost faith!

DMT


Utter bullsh#t. He wants your head in the sand.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
sucking fat old white man penis sure has paid of for you eh blue?
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
...politards...
politics and religion (at least not Christianity) should never have united under one banner. that was initiated by the Dominionist, back in the 1980's, who believe that the world is already in the 1,000 year Millinium, and that it is slowly becoming more Christian (never gonna, nor meant, to happen folks). They deceived many and the Church, in general, jumped on the bandwagon. Like I have said many times, politics may change the laws, but it ain't gonna change the heart. America has a heart problem. The Dispensationalist believe just the opposite is happening, that the Tribulation is fast approaching, and society is going down the drain. Jesus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen." should be kinda self explanatory regarding that note.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
whenever these as#@&%es say god,
just read DOLLAR,

thats what their really talking about
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
This doesn't apply just to Bluering, but since he's the one who is complaining about how the US is going down the tubes, I ask him: "Did you do anything to help? Did you offer yourself for military service? Did you get involved in politics? Did you volunteer to campaign for the causes you believe in?"

Because if you didn't get out there fighting and taking risks for what you believe in, you have no right to whine.


The last 2, yeah. Never served higher than a Boy Scout (when they ere straight).
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Those were the days...




Credit: dirtbag
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 11, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
The last 2, yeah.

Well, to the extent that you worked to make things go the way you want them to go, you earned the right to complain. But with the qualifier that complaining won't accomplish anything. If you want god back into the US and all the islamists and commies and brown people and atheists and homosexuals and whatever else out, then you've gotta get back out there and fight.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
I've regained my faith in America...Velocity in Grand Rapids, Mi. is giving me new bearings for my rear hub , sight unseen , 5 years old...That's what i call good old American integrity...RJ
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
If you want god back into the US and all the islamists and commies and brown people and atheists and homosexuals and whatever else out, then you've gotta get back out there and fight.

Did I ever say that? My problem is largely with lazy, stupid Americans. Who the f*#k would vote for Obama again after his first 4 years when a 'fixer' of business clusterf*#k like Romney was there. A true, experienced, and humble and giving, businessman.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Probably the same perverts that support homosexual marriage.....RJ
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Did I ever say that?

Pretty much. You've long been pro-god, you've started a thread about communists, you've spoken out against allowing equal rights to homosexuals, you've been loud about your anti-islamist feelings, and I think (although I could be mis-remembering) you've made it clear that you think the borders should be sealed more tightly against brown people.

So, yeah, I think it's fair to say you said that.

My problem is largely with lazy, stupid Americans.

No argument there. That's pretty much what I was saying in the post you responded to.

And as to voting for Mr. Obama, considering the alternative, it seems like the right thing to have done. (Not that I get to vote in the US, but I really do believe that Mr. Obama and Mr. Romney are pretty much the same person.)
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
bluering you make such an asse of yourself;

good show, man.

you ain't skewing anyone's political stance,
we're mostly here to watch your whiteman dance.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 11, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
My problem is largely with lazy, stupid Americans. Who the f*#k would vote for Mitt Romney after 4 years of the business clusterf*#k that the Republican obstructionism has caused. He is a true psychopathic business destroyer.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
Pretty much. You've long been pro-god, you'vestarted a thread about communists, you've spoken out against allowing equal rights to homosexuals, you've been loud about your anti-islamist feelings, and I think (although I could be mis-remembering) you've made it clear that you think the borders should be sealed more tightly against brown people.

You originally put more hateful words in my mouth I think, bro. Your original post was more condemning of me. The above words are more attuned to my mindset.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
a 'fixer' of business clusterf*#k like Romney was there. A true, experienced, and humble and giving, businessman.

Poor bluey, there is absolutely no evidence to support this delusional claim. In fact the evidence against Mittens paints a much different picture.

Nice try though.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Mitt didn't look too humble in the debates or on the election night when he thought he was going to win...Frat-boy got butt-hurt , real bad...RJ
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
if you look closer kalimon it makes sense,

hes a tool of the extremist christians who want and vote at every oppertunity for their self interests to be ruined.

these tea party types actively want their children futures and their own fading years to be as grotesquely bitter and downtrodden as is possible

they believe that in this condition they will be driven to "the lord" for comfort with a depth of passion which is impossible when a state exists which can afford them any aid

they think their only reward is after death and their only chance of getting this prize is to REALLY REALLY mean it when they clutch their hands together and pray to the sky

and they cant imagine that ever really happening in a civil society

which is WHY they think of anyone destroying civil society AS their best hope
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Poor bluey, there is absolutely no evidence to support this delusional claim. In fact the evidence against Mittens paints a much different picture.

Nice try though.

He has a great background of picking and making winners.

I'm curious who your ideal candidate would be? Obama is a clear loser. Proven.
Please share.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
I don't blame people for being stupid, but I do hold them responsible when they make the same mistake twice.

 what, like Bush one and two? You're right, but a little late to the party aren't you?


Too many people have lost sight of what we were, and are. Saddening to me.

 Troll 101… You finished the class… good…

Any details Blowey? Or is this another pointless teasefest, never getting to any real point…. per usual.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
Mitt is a trustafarian just like many of the snowboarder douches in this town...The only difference is his daddy had more money to trickle down on little Mitty the great outsourcer...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
he way WE ALL let them develop this running crapola,, ONLY the rich can afford it. CAMPAIGN RE-(GAWD DANG) -FORM.......
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
so romney took the money of central american warlords who were put in power by the US murdering their economic rivals... assisting them in setting up labor relations which make sweat shops look like club med

took that money and used it to ship US jobs overseas WHILE saddling productive businesses with DEBTS that were nothing but...

their profitability being extorted for the supposeded benefit of their labors being slashed and burned.


it takes a REAL piece of sh#t to call this the "american spirit"



true,
its a mimic of the era were america was built by child labor and slaves and fat white as#@&%es who beat their wives and raped their daughters to the cheers of pastors and god fearing folk the land over

but...

that isnt what were really going for as an example of leadership today

is it blue?
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
I have lost faith in America too, due to dickheads like bluey.
WBraun

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Credit: WBraun
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
so romney took the money of central american warlords who were put in power by the US murdering their economic rivals... assisting them in setting up labor relations which make sweat shops look like club med

I doubt that's true, but are you willing to delve into Obama and his finances?

Did you answer my last question?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Look up the amount of food-stamp recipients, welfare compared to active workers.

 One step further and we may find a bit more about what really makes america the failed state that it is… That step?

Corporate unpaid taxes, corporate subsidies, unregulated Corporate greed.

Think a bit bigger blawrag. How about you ask your corporate leaders to be the great Americans you expect of all the rest of us: Ask them to pay their fair share in taxes, Ask them to ask less of their government then you ask of your government, Ask them to do what's right for America instead of what will get them paid the most money the quickest every quarter of every year - Just happens to be a slippery slope to the bottom - and it takes that rest of us with it.

Does shopping at walfart really make your life any better?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
You've long been pro-god

I know that wasn't directed at me, but I plead guilty to being pro-God. (the difference between the quote and my response reminds me of Steve Martin's "Atheists Don't Have No Songs" (". . . the 'he' is always lower case. . .").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWA1A9XFi8

I simultaneously plead guilty to being pro First Amendment and a disestablishmentarian concerning state religion. Like most other things, the state should keep its nose out of religion.

John
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Corporate unpaid taxes, corporate subsidies, unregulated Corporate greed.
Is you boy, Obama, exempt from that field of players?

Do you hold him equally accountable?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
I know that wasn't directed at me, but I plead guilty to being pro-God. (the difference between the quote and my response reminds me of Steve Martin's "Atheists Don't Have No Songs" (". . . the 'he' is always lower case. . .").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWA1A9XFi8

I simultaneously plead guilty to being pro First Amendment and a disestablishmentarian concerning state religion. Like most other things, the state should keep its nose out of religion.

John


John, do not apologize for having faith.

Hey, do you know Hanson down there in Fresno? Surely you must. VDH?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Like most other things, the state should keep its nose out of religion.

Insofar as religion harms no one, that's a reasonable view. But there were plenty of folks who once thought the state should keep it's nose of slavery, and plenty who now think the state should keep its nose out of the drug business. You can probably come up with a dozen other examples.

Bottom line is that if whatever religion I practice doesn't affect you, and vice versa, then fair enough. But when my religion affects you, or yours me, then what? Isn't that why we have "the state"?

However, I do believe the converse is a worthy goal: Religion should keep its nose out of the state.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
However, I do believe the converse is a worthy goal: Religion should keep its nose out of the state.


yep!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
Steve, Victor's wife and mine were pep girls together in high school, and their son and our daughter were classmates in the second graduating class at University High School in Fresno. Victor was a couple of classes behind my wife at Selma High School. He still farms in Selma, and is a pretty good guy despite being a 'furd (those associated with a Junior University on the Peninsula, for those uninitiated in Cal lore).

UHS is a charter high school with a curriculum that emphasizes music and rigor. Their PE included sessions at the local climbing gym, ultimate Frisbee, and various other non-traditional activities, although I understand that revisionists there took over to the extent that they now have a soccer team (my daughter graduated 8 years ago, so I lost touch somewhat.) Their test scores are very high, and exceedingly so given the socioeconomic status of the students' families. It was a school for misfits in more traditional systems, so many of my daughters' classmates reminded me of climbers I knew.

John
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:33pm PT

Like most other things, the state should keep its nose out of religion.

This is definitely THE whole motivation of the founding fathers to write The Constitution!!

America is becoming what the "originals" were running from.

i would LOVE to hear what each of you consider "faith in America" means.

Especially my brother Blue.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
John, in a school like that I guarantee good outcomes!

As for Vicor, he is a sage. In history. Sowell in philosophy. You should apply to Hoover in Economics. You'd fit right in.

Victor is a master editorialist. You operate on the same level.

Cheers, John!
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
you should stop and listen occasionally,
we called obama as a sellout when he addressed the convention in 06'

hes sold more kids to private capital in chicago than anyone who voted for him knows


and to keep up appearances hes appoints moderately right of center justices to play liberals for capitals convenience

its sick.

but we all realize that you cant end corruptions unless you confront capitalism



absent that occuring hand in hand, your indignation is a farce, your outrage a show, your legal actions are shams where the winners have been picked in advance cuz their above the law but the public dont care cuz they dont even know now that "journalists" who make the air all play golf and snort coke with them

of course obama is himself personally, pure filth...
that just smart enough to know how to reign it in just enough to get what he wants



willing to sell a huge chuck of the farm JUST so he can label the trucks driving it off nice things that will make the dull masses cheer


it aint obama's corruption
if your embracing capitalism your DEMANDING corruption and institutions which cater to it

the questions is whos corruption are you going to tolerate?
as long as you dont bring capitalism to heel



towards the very real interest hes only playing lip service???

or towards the evilest of intentions ever dared be said outloud in a hundred years...

which is all YOUR retoric is dragging towards
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
^^^ rsin, that was a really insightful post. except that last line?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
rsin, i think ur werk here could be described as a job..
but im not sure what ur retirement would be?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
two sides are stacked up trying to toppel an idol

its going to decimate the advocacy for one reason to knock it down

or the other, given both are pushing


both forces believe that the idol remaining is better than the opposition to it gaining power after its fall

jghedge

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:30pm PT

"Victor is a master editorialist."

I love the irony of that. I'm sure if you said that to his face, he'd be insulted - yet that really is about all he can lay claim to.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Bluering, ya whiner, quit your belly-aching. Turning my stomach, ya wingnut.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
what are you kidding!??!?


he's far to sensitive to read that...

he pays a doctor to check suggestions out for him. peruse the link.

unless his cross wearing doctors give him the aok
he doesnt pat any attention to the report of his work
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:40pm PT

two sides are stacked up trying to toppel an idol

that's the oldest storyline go'in

go back to tell'in me somp'in i don't know
WBraun

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
One who loses faith in America is a traitor to the whole planet, universe and to ones own self .......
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 11, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
oh and aside from the funny stuff
lets be clear whos putting words in his mouth
that hes so happy to regurgitate


Billionaire Koch Brother Claims Eliminating Minimum Wage Would Help the Poor


[5 applicants for every job and they think if they stop feeding the unemployed job positions will increase 4 times over to fill the demand?!?!]

In a last ditch effort to win a bet against Lucifer and finally get to claim "no, I'm definitely worse," Charles Koch has found the indelible secret to end all secrets: in order to help the poor, we need to get rid of minimum wage.


http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/absurd-billionaire-koch-brother-claims-eliminating-minimum-wage-would-help-poor
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:01pm PT

Billionaire Koch Brother Claims Eliminating Minimum Wage Would Help the Poor

yea and hes got bill moyers greet'in the crowds. Oh how money blurrs the vision.

and talk'in about vision. what's with the big titted ads next to our text? We can't show'em, but they can?

can i say; i have faith in irony?

charlie rose for president! think about it....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:48am PT
I simply believe Christianity is gentleness

Whoa Craggy, no offense, but have you looked at history?

The Crusades? The Christian crusaders were at least as vicious as the Muslims. The Christian crusaders would slaughter at will.

According to historians, Saladin, when taking over the Levant, said to let people live their own religion.

From Wikipedia:

His reportedly noble and chivalrous behavior was noted by Christian chroniclers, and despite being the nemesis of the Crusaders, he won the respect of many of them, including Richard the Lionheart who led the Third Crusade; rather than becoming a hated figure in Europe, Saladin became a celebrated example of the principles of chivalry.

The Inquisition? A blot on the Vatican at the time.

And...

Organized religion (Christian, Islam, Judaism etc) is there for one purpose, to serve the leaders. IMO.


True humanity is gentleness, with or without religion. But IMO religion gives people an excuse, I suppose without religion humankind would find another excuse to persecute others, to take over lands, to take over riches.

Religion can also be beneficial, giving people hope. I had an aunt in Seattle that prayed so much, her cancer went into remission for years. But that is the power of the mind. To cling onto something, a belief.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:13am PT
heres what you dont know blue,

there are only two side IF you accept the the media and money filter are true.

there are in fact at least a dozen sides. the richest get to make the venue and tells the rest they have to choose amongst themselves and pick ONE who will be allowed to sit across the table and represent them.

that is the scam of 'tolerance' as handed down from the 1%

true tolerance demand that the side dictating this manner of arrangement should be eliminated for being the intolerant dictator it is
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:39am PT
reminds me of Steve Martin's "Atheists Don't Have No Songs" (". . . the 'he' is always lower case. . .").

Steve Martin needs to expand his horizons.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:43am PT
As for Victor, he is a sage.

OK, that's the funniest thing I've read on this thread. VD read Frank Norris' The Octopus and came to the conclusion that Norris was sympathetic to the railroads. LOL!

He's either a dimwitted moron or a prostitute. No insult meant to prostitutes.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:16am PT
Christian Gentleness.


Credit: philo






























That's cool Blue you keep bending over you'll eventually get it.

Credit: philo













Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:27am PT
Like any other ideology, there have been lots of awful things done under the banner of Christianity. Man's fault...not God's.

And again, my Christian values are exactly that...MINE...based on the way I interpret God's love for all of us. It is HIS heart that teaches me that...

LOVE...never fails.
JOY...cometh.
PEACE...rules.
FAITH...fights.
GOODNESS...does.
SELF-CONTROL...stops.
KINDNESS...tenders.
PATIENCE...waits.

It doesn't bother me if others do not embrace these things....however, I find it sad when others ridicule me for these things, which mean so much to me.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:31am PT
anyone with an ounce of 'christian values' in him prays in his cloests. never tells anyone about it unless its dragged out and only opens his mouth on the subject to condemn those claiming to respect christs example while pracing around in public

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:33am PT
JOY...cometh

Finally something we can agree upon, I too experience great joy when I cometh.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:44am PT
You can blame the downward spiral directly on Conservatives, and the Conservative Supreme Court.

Bush vs. Gore: the initial coup
Citizens United: the sell off of America to the Fascists
Killing the Voting Act: rigging the system for the final takeover

Does anyone think that voting in More Republicans will fix our race to the Bottom, especially now with the Tea Baggar faction with Ted Cruz as the new golden boy. They are going full steam backwards.

I don't care what you think of Obama, but he is in a war against these people, and they are winning.

The Only way is to vote in More Liberals that will do Congressional action against these damaging policies.

And a More Liberal Congress will also steer the President back to reality.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:45am PT
Cragman
I have all those same things without a imaginary friend.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:48am PT
And many Americans have that imaginary friend sans the values.
WBraun

climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:02am PT
There's no imaginary friends except the ones one makes up.

All my friends I've met and are real.

What kind of bullsh!t are you guys projecting and making up again now?





Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:06am PT
I subscribe to this quote form a letter of George Kennan from 1984:

"One's relations with one's country, like the relations amoung intimates, are always complicated; but I conceive myself to have loved my own...I am now inclined to see my country much the way that I see Russia (in the historical sense): namely, as a politically unsuccessful and tragic country, but one capable of producing out of its midst, from time to time, remarkable literary, artistic, and musical intelligence, politically helpless and always vulnerable to abuse and harassment at the hands of the dominant forces of the moment."
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:09am PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Dean's "imaginary friend" is OK with me. So is Dean. Even though I don't have one. He's got as much right to his beliefs as I do to mine. Even though atheism is the only true belief (irony/sarcasm/self mockery intended)

You can blame the downward spiral directly on Conservatives, and the Conservative Supreme Court.
Let's go back a little further to Reaganism when the Religious Right was allowed and enabled to start inserting Their Christian Religion into American politics and governance. In direct violation of the 1st Amendment. (We've had this debate before. Some time ago on the atheists (or was it the Christian) thread I debunked the claims that Jefferson meant the 1st Amendment to be interpreted liberally.)

The 1st Amendment came about precisely because the Colonies and the first united states contained all religions, including significant numbers of Jews, and other non-Christian religions. They had seen and were watching the divisiveness in Europe over religion. Protestant England vs Catholic France/Italy for just one example. Many of their forefathers had come here precisely to escape religious persecution. In their wisdom they decided the Constitution should have a guarantee of religious freedom and the only real way to enforce that was to Keep ALL Religion out of government.

In God We Trust only became our "motto" when Eisenhower was pushed there by the anti-Communism (atheist Communists) sentiment whipped up by Joe McCarthy.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782.
So please tell me, in WHOSE God do we trust? This is precisely the problem.

Remember E pluribus unum? From many comes one. Including religious/non religious.
We have strayed from that basic understanding and it will take us some time to get back. I do believe this country is intelligent and diverse enough to find it's way again. Perhaps not in my lifetime.

So hang in there bluey, we are all being tested.

quotes from Wikipedia
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:43am PT
Remember E pluribus unum?

I understand this to mean that We do not let our people starve.
Give them Food stamps and jobs dammit.

Get these evil greedy son of a bitchs out of the way of helping out our brother and environment.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:19am PT
Just because a life of faith in God doesn't work for you...you do not have to discount it for others.

I can assure you...ALL of my friends are VERY real!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:23am PT
Dr. F
Right On

Cragman: didn't intend to demean your faith. I respect it. I believe THAT's what the 1st Amendment means.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:44am PT
Just because a life of faith in God works for you...you do not have to promote it for others.

Wasn't there a story recently where a good christian was helping someone in need, only to turn it into an uncomfortable situation by insisting the person in need turn to God. That's pretty pathetic.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:46am PT
Ht, it seems to me insofar as you're one to appreciate nuances, nuanced meaning, otherwise the value of drawing smart distinctions in thought and writing - esp as they come into play in our politics, societies, laws and lives - you could do a better job distinguishing between (a) respecting one's right to his faith and (b) respecting the faith. It is a real distinction with a real difference. Substantive gains could be made, it seems to me, if more people bothered enough to take on the difference - as a principle, even as a contagious meme.

I certainly respect Spliter's right to his faith. But to respect his faith (or Go-B's or Cragman's or Blue's) when it supports so much ignorance and barbarism (leftovers from the bronze age) is something else - it's just baseless if not nutty negligent.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:49am PT
Ask Yasiel Puig what he thinks of the USA. But don't bother asking him
his opinion of the press - he's gotten up to speed on that faster than he
gets to first base.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:23am PT
blueblocr and Bluering are not the same people

that is a fact
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:46am PT
That is definitely fact. Blueblocr is not bluering, I've met Blueblocr and the dude has been to my house (also have met Bluering in passing).

Not that Blockr's lunatic jesus ramblings are my thing, but nevertheless he is an actual person, not a Bluering sock puppet.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
"Just because a life of faith in God works for you...you do not have to promote it for others."




The only way I "promote" my faith in God....is by living it. If someone is curious and asks...of course I share with them what I believe.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
1) I have met both Bluering and BlueBlockr. They are two different people.

2) I heard a story about a month ago on NPR which was about the Food Stamps program. It debunked several of the "Conservative Talking Points" which currently would have us believe the program is taking down the USA, but the point I was very surprised on was that the fact is that for every dollar spent in Food Stamps, something like $1.89 is gained in the economy(farmers making foods which would not be needed, trucking companies which would have less deliveries and thus less people on the payroll, stores which would hire less people to work due to a lessened need for employees, since those on Food Stamps wouldn't be part of the equation.)

So, yes, maybe Food Stamps IS a subsidy in this country, but along with helping people who earn below a specified threashold to have healthier food choices, the subsidy supports MANY people who work in the distribution chain which relies on food products. Take away the Food Stamps program, and the job force shrinks to accommodate the reduced production.

Apparently, it is actually a pretty hefty mechanism for growth of productivity in this country. If those "Good, Hard-workings American" who works 40 hours at the Safeway, toil in the fields, haul goods cross country, lose their job because of the reduced production - what does THAT do to the health of this country?

It seems that we like to believe very complex formulas are very simple, and it behooves us, if we really DO care about our world, to do the best we can to educate ourselves.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
The "conservative" opposition to the Food Stamp program is interesting.

It is much like their opposition to a minimum wage in the United States.

Simply put, it really really bugs them that some Americans, even the very poorest, are geting "something for nothing" from the taxpayers, specifically "working" taxpayers.

This is the same group that opposed the creation of Social Security in 1938 and Medicare in 1965 when they screamed and accused FDR and Johnson of being Hitler.

And the Patient Protection Act (Obamacare) really sets them off, because again, they see it as a means for poor people to have, gasp, healthcare without paying the high individual plan policy payment that they do.
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
I have lost faith in America

That works out well, because America has lost faith in you!

;)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
HFC
Yes, your distinction is correct.
My meaning was I respect Cragman's faith as he appears to practice it. I can respect a man/woman in spite of their religion.
There's plenty to not respect in most religions' past and present behavior as a whole. That doesn't condemn all their teachings nor all their participants.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
I live in a condo complex for going on 10 years and personally know 10 or more people on a first name basis. I just talked to one guy, Cabe, for about 15-20 minutes and have known him for 3-4 years. Not one of those people know that I'm a Christian, the subject never comes up.

I did let one neighbor, who is a JW (Jehovah Witness) know, in one simple sentence, that I believe Jesus is God (they don't). End of discussion, end of her coming to my door. I still see her around, but she rarely says anything to me. I did give my manager, a lady who has become a good friend, a Christian tract a couple years ago. She never said a thing about it other than she read it. The subject hasn't come up since. I never approach anyone, unless they approach me first. I do occasionally hand someone a tract, but that is pretty rare these days.

I was involved in a street ministry back in the 80's, talked to 1,000's of peeps, gave them all a tract. But in most cases, I never mentioned anything about Christ until I was about to leave ( i simply gave them a tract about salvation) and said goodbye. My actions spoke for themselves. People needed help with food, or whatever. Some simply wanted to talk.

Many were prostituting themselves to get by, men and women, mostly teens as young as 12-13. Never once did I/we tell them what they were doing was wrong. They already new. Never preached to them. We let them know how much God loved them and had a better plan for them. That was it. If they had questions, like people on this forum, we would try and answer them. If the didn't we simply left it at how God loved them just the way they were.

There are millions of Christians doing good works in the name of Christ all over the world. Digging wells, fixing cataracts, etc, paying for schooling (i sponsored a young girl in Africa for just a few dollars a day for several years, when i was working, through World Vision, i still have her picture and drawings she use to send me, breaks my heart to look at them).

Micronut went to Nepal and offered his services, fixed many dental problems, in the name of Christ. Those people aren't pressured to do anything, it doesn't work that way. We simply give them the good news that God loves them and wants them to know and love Him. Usually nothing is said, it is simply obvious through actions, they know who we are.

edit: regardless of anything i have said, i still love America and its people, its my home. but i love all people, because God loves all people throughout the world, much more than any of us can know!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
It seems to me that criticizing someone here for their faith or any other personal characteristic (no matter what that might be) without actually meeting them in person, is extremely shallow.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
^^^^^
Well said
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Well put, Splitter!

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
Splitter, Cragman, et all

I really don't think that some people here are aggressively out to mock or bash Christians.

But would you consider and respond these points?

1) "non believers (Atheists) do not go around openly talking about their Atheism nor do they try to convert believers to their point of view, however fundamentalist Christians DO both when they post often about their personal love of Jesus, etc

2) This I think irritates the non believers and probably provokes them to respond with distain because they do not post, often, about their "non belief", but in fact respond to rather than initiate such talk

3) I suspect that what irritates the non believers even more is when Christians absolutely insist on a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible, as in every single word is from God, and that includes all the truly horrible stuff in the Bible like God telling, commanding, his followers to enslave, rape, and murder other humans.

your thoughts?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Proselytizers are the scourge of the earth.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Norton,

I know you didn't invite me into this conversation, and I'm about to do the cowardly thing and turn off ST for the weekend, so I can do some climbing.

Nonetheless, I'm sure I won't surprise you by disagreeing with some of your statements.

The threads of ST are full of put-downs of people of faith generally, but of Christians in particular. Just try starting a thread asking how Christians balance their passion for climbing with their love of Christ. The threads quickly filled with mean-spirited and rather hateful responses from non-believers who impolitely told us to take our conversations elsewhere.

I particularly have trouble agreeing with the idea that atheists don't try to convert others to their disbelief in God. The digs, innuendos, arguments and rants about the alleged stupidity of believers speak for themselves.

I've always been skeptical of conspicuous piety, perhaps because too much of my life demonstrates conspicuous vice, but atheists are hardly immune from criticism of that nature. I think the discussions on the last page or two about respecting people while disagreeing with their beliefs represent my personal ideal. Sad to say, neither believers nor disbelievers always succeed at this.

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Just try starting a thread asking how Christians balance their passion for climbing with their love of Christ. The threads quickly filled with mean-spirited and rather hateful responses from non-believers who impolitely told us to take our conversations elsewhere.

you are helping my point, John

again, the non believers respond to rather than initiate

an Atheist for example would not start a new thread in order to tell everyone specifically how their non belief balances or enhances their climbing

no where did I disagree that non believers in general respond by mocking, they do

the believers know the responses they will get from prior experience, regardless they proceed as it clearly does not bother them enough
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Norton, but if only it were that simple.

I'd like to believe I live in a democracy where the majority citizens believe it is their duty to upgrade their outdated beliefs. (Which, in the case of Abrahamic religions especially, are clearly exposed by even a modicum of study of world history or world religions, also science.) In the interest of the well-being of their democracy.

Is it not painfully obviously that our current democracy is hobbled by competing ideas and ideologies, many of these outdated? C'mon!

Where is Splitter's duty, or Cragman's duty, or go-B's duty to upgrade from such clearly outdated nonsense?

Yes, respect the right to believe; respect the people or respect the person; but respect the belief that God Jehovah came to earth, mated with a young virgin girl to beget a Son-God? Respect this as a truth-claim? Or respect the ancient belief that this world works according to the sayings of bronze-age prophets? Respect the belief that Elijah REALLY ascended into heaven in a chariot of fire on a whirlwind? Respect this as a truth-claim? C'mon.

On youtube, as you probably already know, there is a US Congressman (Broun, I think, from a red state) who describes evolution if not science as something "straight from the pit of hell." You think Splitter or Cragman disagrees with this political leader's statements? Of course their beliefs - these antiquated beliefs - beget negative effects on the nature, operations and quality of our democracy, our democratic rule. If not beliefs, which are also ideas or idea systems, what else is there to effect a strong democracy?

We can only hope that young people today (inspired by the internet-driven info age) grow up with the interest otherwise value to question beliefs as never before - esp those that pertain to what is, that pertain to facts about how the world works - to challenge those that seem at odds with life experience and science - and last but not least to take it upon themselves as responsible engaged citizens to upgrade those outdated beliefs (like exorcism, like purgatory, like Original Sin) that are clearly hand-me-down superstitious nonsense from superstitious ages and ancestors.

Beliefs matter. They are not inconsequential. It continues to amaze me - on and on and on - how such a fundamental principle of human functioning can be so utterly disregarded, really from all sides.

P.S.,

If you or anyone else would like to count me as a "science believer" (cf: "nonbeliever" or "none"; framing matters, too), indeed a multifarious believer in and of many things, also as an engaged citizen, who has no problem prodding his fellow citzens to upgrade their outdated beliefs, then feel free to do so. In my view such prodding has nothing to do with being mean-spirited or hateful (ref: JELeazarian; such a red herring) and everything to do with pushing, out of passion and concern, for a stronger democracy, more unity, and better performance.

Here, let me say it unequivocally and unapologetically... if you live in my electorate and you have antiquated beliefs, outdated beliefs, then I am going to encourage you - or push and prod you - at every opportunity that's appropriate to upgrade them. So it is written, so let it be done. :)
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
Well Wes,

I seem to have gotten it wrong, which is different from lying. The 2 blues seemed so similar.

I've wracked my head and tried to find the significance or the deeper meaning behind getting all fired up and outing my friend Steve.

The only moral to my morass I can think of, is "OOPS"...

ps. Cragman, what if we all met in person and found out we're all worse than we initially believed each other to be on the internet ? (chuckle...)

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
And for dessert...

here's our Spliter "in Christ" from just yesterday, he was such a busy bee...
"it's a waste of time talking to you people, your spiritually dead. yer choice. this thread is a total waste of time, b'cuz ya made up yer minds long ago, so sad. you will go on to yer reward. the usa is gonna be held much more accountable than S&G, because you have heard it all (the Good News) over and over, yet continue to reject it. Blublocer was wrong and Jennie was right, there are different levels of hell. your place is reserved. been there and wouldn't want anyone to spend one second there, let alone eternity. but you've evidently chose/loved the darkness instead of the light. so be it."

Really, how does this differ from the pablum of head-strong fundamentalist Abrahamic religionists of the Middle East, of Pakistan, e.g., or Afghanistan? Till a majority of Americans get past this archaic nonsense, their democracy will only continue to run around in circles, making a mess of things, getting nothing done.

The cure for perceiving the world and how it works through the Abrahamic lens (verily, a delusion) is... science. The more the better. Starting in kindergarten and working on up, through junior high and high school, that would be optimum. Yes, kids being kids, it probably takes that many years to work it in deeply, to imprint on it. It offers a competing worldview model. It offers a categorically different worldview model. Regarding facts. Regarding truth-claims.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
ps. Cragman, what if we all met in person and found out we're all worse than we initially believed each other to be on the internet ?
Well
When I've met Cragman (a couple of times now), I found him to be a very decent and upright guy. Of course I wasn't dressed in a Bear hide and climbing in his window!
bluey's a very decent guy as well, but then I didn't try to climb into his window or try to talk him into voting for Obama.

We all have our own opinions to spout here and our own beliefs.
An odd comparison. I've got a neighbor couple, both devout Roman Catholic and very directly involved in the Church's daily operations.
He's very conservative, libertarian in fact. Also very conservative socially.
She's quite liberal politically and socially, strongly supports gay marriage, Obamacare, women's reproductive rights.
I enjoy both their company although he wears on me after a while. I'd trust either of them with my life.

Perish the thought if we all had the SAME belief system.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
different strokes! I love you all(yeah right)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Splitter said

you will go on to yer reward.

he is referring to what he believes will happen to those who do NOT believe as he does

and where exactly will the non believers GO?

there are different levels of hell. your place is reserved. been there and wouldn't want anyone to spend one second there, let alone eternity. but you've evidently chose/loved the darkness instead of the light. so be it."


I see........Splitter states that he personally has been to hell

pretty horrible for a "Christian" to see such burning fate for non believers

can you see why the non believers openly mock this kind of forecasting of their death?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Perish the thought if we all had the SAME belief system.

Jesus Christ, we're not talking beliefs as to which is the best sport, climbing or surfing. Or beliefs as to which is the best use of a billion dollars. Here, we are talking about beliefs put forth as facts, truth-claims.

Whether you know it or not, you are the shade under which Abrahamic fundamentalists (perhaps someday armed with a thermonuclear suitcase, or two, or three) take refuge. :(
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
He has a great background of picking and making winners.

I'm curious who your ideal candidate would be? Obama is a clear loser. Proven.
Please share.

That is a great question bluering. I voted for Obama and don't see him as a loser by any means. Is he perfect? Of course not . . . he is human and it is politics. The political scene in this country is out of control, don't you agree? We are evolving toward a more viable alternative, slowly and hopefully surely. As for a future candidate, we will have to see. I think the two party system is broken and we get stuck with what it has to offer; perpetuating the status quo for the benefit of the controlling elite.

If I had to imagine a better system, it would probably be a hybridization of capitalism and socialism. I believe we can take care of the inhabitants of this planet, while harmoniously restoring the planets damaged systems. The reality of this happening? Not very likely because it would take such a dramatic shift in consciousness on the part of the small population that controls the vast majority of the planet's material wealth wealth.

Heaven help the fool and I am one of them.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
High Traverse,

I hope you're a drinking man, because if we ever meet in person, there's a glass of the best Scotch on offer from me to you.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
"ps. Cragman, what if we all met in person and found out we're all worse than we initially believed each other to be on the internet ?"



I hope we DO meet, Jim!

I have met many that post here....including many that have spoken harshly of me and my convictions. They were all VERY likable in person....there isn't one I wouldn't welcome in my home.

In the long run, we are all in search of the same thing....acceptance and love. That makes the world work.

EDIT: And just for reference, Jim.....if we DO meet....I'm partial to Crown Royal.

: )
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Crown Royal if you must...

But I've been sampling some Laphroaig Cairdeas recently for scientific purposes. It seems the labcoats of Islay have smoothed out Scottish Tequila to the best flavour 18 years can amend...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
That is definitely fact. Blueblocr is not bluering, I've met Blueblocr and the dude has been to my house (also have met Bluering in passing).

ElCap, when did we cross paths? What year? J-Tree?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
I've found renewed faith in Americans recently, thanks ST!

Between planning to climb with some of you, to having a heartfelt conversation with one of you lately, you all seem like a pretty damn good lot.

Cheers, ST! I like you people. If I didn't like you I wouldn't have been talking with you and making friends for ten years!
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
right back at you Brandon!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
Sounds delightful, Jim! I have been on the wagon since Thanksgiving, and will remain on that ride til years end.

Perhaps for New Years???

: )
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
In the long run, we are all in search of the same thing....acceptance and love.

On this we can agree.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Jim, Cragman and myself. We'll each bring Scotch. Mine will also be Laphroagh!
Facelift? But....we've gotta wait till next year?
Cragman, I'll bring some fresh squeezed orange juice for you.

bluey, you gonna be there with your Bud? (just yankin' yer chain)

And I'm OUTTA here for the evening.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Cragman...When are you leaving again...? Wanted to poach another xmas tree out of your yard...RJ
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 12, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
June Lake sounds like a little Berlin
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
I'm already outta there, RJ...beware the Claymore mines though....

: )


EDIT: Actually, Craig, June Lake is more like a little Tyrolia!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Claymores...? Found some in my lug soles...RJ
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Doesn't Cup have a nice one in his yard? Lots closer for ya!

: )
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
Cup's wife would kick my ass...Look how cup turned out..Good idea though...RJ
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
^True that!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
you circle jerks should take it to the politics and religion isle
where reason goes to die


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Fruity SEZ;

The cure for perceiving the world and how it works through the Abrahamic lens (verily, a delusion) is... science.

How could anyone really believe that "science" can be the end all cure for what ales the earth? When in fact science has produced ALL the problems we see Mother Earth coping
with. I don't see Spiritualality causing a depletion in the ozone and greenhouse gasses. It's science that brought us the production of oil, and plastics, and foams. Then science gave us planes, trains, and automobiles. Along with computers and tv's which we have to ravage the earth of its finite materials. And after we go to the ends of the earth, digging and scraping these materials out. What are we going to do to find more? Cause when everybody is as smart as fruity, everyone will have to have a Hummer and a iPhone, along with anything else man can dream up for his convenience and his wisdom. Come'on brothers and sisters look around and see what's REALLY taking place! Look at the smog in the sky's. Look at all the plastics stuck in our oceans and waterways. Look at all the mountains of unrecycleable trash that we just keep pushing dirt over.And on, and on, and on.. So I ask you "science", where's ur cures?
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
you circle jerks should take it to the politics and religion isle
where reason goes to die

That right there is a quality post.
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Jul 12, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
you circle jerks should take it to the politics and religion isle
where reason goes to die

That right there is a quality post.


+1
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
to bring back faith in america we need to bring back the UNIONS!!!

Empower the middle class!!

Incentives for RENEWABLE ENERGY BUSINESSES...HIGH TAXES ON FOSSIL FUEL BUSINESSES WITH A CAP ON PROFITS!!!

Reward businesses that INVEST thier profits by growing JOBS...tax businesses that HOARD profits...

PAY DIRTBAGGERS TO CLIMB ....just joking :) WE WILL CLIMB FOR FREE!!!
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Jul 13, 2013 - 07:59am PT
reason has died in the mind of bluering, no wonder he lost his faith
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 13, 2013 - 09:39am PT
God himself doesn't propose to judge a man until he is dead.

Why should you?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 13, 2013 - 09:52am PT
But what about the walking dead?
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 13, 2013 - 09:54am PT
Reilly, don't call Dr. F names.

: )
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:56am PT
christians really make alot of hay out of judgement...

their every phrase and idea DRIPS that sh#t but when their confronted with the picture taken of them they start bitchin AS IF it the last thing they do

just more illistration of the profound dishonesty that is essential to being included among their ranks
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 13, 2013 - 10:58am PT
The walking dead need quick judgement and a crossbow in the forehead..RJ
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:10am PT
yall know the story of same hose right?


Sam Hose, a.k.a. Sam Holt, was born Tom Wilkes in south Georgia near Marshallville (Macon County) around 1875. He grew up on a Macon County farm owned by the Jones family. His mother was a long-time employee of the family.

Wilkes moved to Coweta County, where he assumed the alias Sam Hose. On April 12, 1899, Wilkes/Hose was accused of murdering his employer, Alfred Cranford, after a heated argument. The argument was the result of Hose requesting time off to visit his mother who was ill. Alfred Cranford threatened to kill Hose and pointed a gun at him. Hose was working at the time with an ax in his hands. Due to the threat he defended himself and threw the ax, killing Cranford.[1] Wilkes fled the scene and the search for him began shortly thereafter. Over the next few days, stories suggesting that Wilkes sexually assaulted Cranford's wife and assaulted his infant child caused a furor. On April 23, 1899, Wilkes/Hose was apprehended in Marshallville and returned by train to Coweta County.

A mob removed him from the train at gunpoint in Newnan, Georgia. Former Governor William Yates Atkinson and Judge Alvan Freeman pleaded with the crowd to release Wilkes/Hose to the custody of the authorities. Ignoring their pleas, the crowd marched northward toward the Cranford home. The lynch mob grew, reaching an estimated 2000 individuals. Once news of the capture reached Atlanta, large crowds boarded trains to Newnan. Mistakenly believing that these trains were loaded with troops, the mob stopped just north of Newnan. Newspapers reported that Wilkes'/Hose's ears, fingers and genitals were severed. The skin from his face was removed and his body was doused with kerosene. He was tied to a tree and burned alive. Some members of the mob cut off pieces of his dead body as souvenirs. According to Philip Dray's At the Hands of Persons Unknown: The Lynching of Black America, the noted civil rights leader and scholar W. E. B. Du Bois, who lived in Atlanta at the time, was on his way to a scheduled meeting with Atlanta Constitution editor Joel Chandler Harris to discuss the lynching, when he was informed that Hose's knuckles were for sale in a grocery store on the road on which he was walking. He sadly turned around and did not meet with Harris after learning this.

Loomis

climber
Svět
Jul 13, 2013 - 11:17am PT
These two videos go hand in hand...




Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are operating a motor vehicle and are stopped by a law enforcement officer, aren't you required by law to show them your ID?

I hate idiots like the one in your second video. WTF is the point?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
I've seen that video, Wes.

Yes, you have to show ID, to the best of my knowledge, but the kid was well within his rights in his actions. I see nothing wrong with someone using knowledge to keep a police state from growing.

Have you seen this one?

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
its quite the shame that progressive liberals have to align with tyrantical state aspects simple because they refuse to believe that extremist conservative have any good reasons
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
oh and btw,
in the american states, you dont have to show id if your not driving a vehicle...

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
I was referring to driving.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
these scum f*#ks dont make any distinction anylonger...

recently walked over 200 feet in the local hood to arrest a person who was filming their practice


btw brandon,

what your video shows is that the tools forcing the public to eat sh#t have learned how to identify individual who will make they look like the asses they are in front of dozens if not more citizens who might wake up to things

so those who know what to say and how to act get shuttled around "security" these days

on account of the security extablishment pushing rules down after seeing how detrimental to their overall design confronting and intimidating people who aint going to fold actually is



rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
and for those of you who dont think the news is forced down for the most part by regressive forces who cater to extremist skull f*#kers on the right

today your in school...

snowden had accepted russian amnesty hours ago



and drudge report hast said boo............


because the powers he and the rest have to get a sign off before saying anything havnt decided what to say yet...

heh
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
If you listened to NPR you'd know that this happened either yesterday or the day before (can't remember). Also, the panel discussing it was mixed on whether or not Snowden was a POS. Pretty darn balanced discussion.

Quit judging so hard. You seem to have lost faith in people.

I haven't because I see positive things in the people I encounter every day.

Try it, it's not as hard as you'd think.

Dispute the big stuff and find beauty in the excellent little things you see people do every day.

Humans are pretty great, but you've got to be open to giving them a chance. We all have faults, but most of us are inherently kind. :)
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
funny that

npr has been run by us inteligence for a decade after they got permissions to propagandize the american public

their leftist leaning suggestions are trick and fients aimed at promotting what extremist christians love to vote for...

it only connects the dots that they would have an opinions ready and broadcast before drudge has got his marching orders

their closer to the national security threats our nations faces than matt is
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
WTF was your question?

You want to slander me because I see the good in people? Fine.

I'm no idiot, I stand up for my beliefs, very loudly at times.

You just seem to be ranting with no focal point to your rants.

Please, write us a manifesto. I'll read it.

Edited to note that the above post was changed. My reply seems out of context now.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
the question was " why do good people have to pay lip service to certain aspects of the dominations of american space, before they think its safe to voice their opinion on some subject slightly other?"
Loomis

climber
Svět
Jul 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Dr. Christ
You missed the point.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 13, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
Dr.Christ,

what if "the motor vehicle" is missing a hubcap? are you still required to show them your ID? (not a trick question, just curious)

edit: never mind, i'll ask him (l.e.o.) myself, next time i get pulled over.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 13, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
I have lost faith in America
i know how ya feel. i lost my car keys recently. but, i have a spare car key. everything was cool until i was just about out of gas. i pulled in to fill up...forgot that the only key for the locking gas cap is on my main key ring. sucks big time. and, i just had to buy the most expensive locking gas cap. i tried to drive a screwdriver through the key slot and really messed things up. because now they can't simply make a new key for it ($45), but have to drain the gas tank before they take a torch to the damn thing to get it off ($500+). well, i hope you find yer faith (sooner or later).

edit: the moral of my story: count your blessings. b'cuz, things could get much worse! ...jus sayin'!
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 13, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
This is what George Wallace had to say about integration during his inaugural address in 1963: "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/libertarianism-covers-racism


So, in effect, when conservatives and libertarians say government should get out of the way, what they are really saying is “let’s lock into place white political power, white wealth, and white privilege.

Of course, not all libertarians think of themselves as racist, and most probably don’t see how their “get rid of government” policies prop up institutional bigotry, but the reality is that when you blast government as the root of all evil and neuter its power, you end weakening the one thing that can keep the ruling elite in check.

And when you do that, the rich and powerful race hangs onto its wealth and power and the poorer minorities lose even more of what little they have.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 04:42am PT
Hey, people on welfare, conservatives would like you to know the rules. So here they are:

If / when you lose your job, be sure to sell all your nice electronics and luxury goods immediately and make sure you are always dressed well in public (but not too well, because then you are clearly not in need of any financial assistance and will be judged for not immediately selling all your nice clothing, too).
Cover up your tattoos, or people will snark that you are spending your welfare money on body art, even if you have had those tattoos for years, or you have a friend who is a tattoo artist who did them for free.
Are your shoes nice? Better not wear them in public, especially while at the grocery store paying for food with food stamps, because you MUST have somehow magically converted those food stamps into enough expendable income to buy those shoes. Never mind that they were a gift, or you bought them years ago, or that they actually have huge holes in the soles and tattered insoles because you can’t afford to replace them.
As a bonus, be sure not to have a job with flexible hours or work from home or work as a stay-at-home parent, because judgmental people will be on your ass and assume you are on welfare based on limited or non-existent evidence (even if you are not) and whine bitterly about having to contribute to social safety nets for the needy. That is right: You don’t even have to be on welfare at all, you can simply be out in public with your kid(s) during normal business hours and have total strangers assume you are on government assistance if you don’t look prosperous. Isn’t that cute?
But, hey, you know who will also be first in line with a hand out for benefits when they lose a job or fall on hard times, have family to house and feed, and qualify to receive them? That’s right: The same people who spend a hell of a lot of time claiming that people on government assistance are all undeserving and grifting the system and not really in need because they are, say, clean and are not wearing rags or being extra-careful to only appear in public while exhibiting visible signs of long-term poverty like, say, neglected teeth or unkempt hair and tattered sackcloth outfits.

Oh, you might also want to (5.) sell your car, too, unless it is a Piece Of Sh#t, because clearly no one receiving unemployment benefits or welfare could possibly have purchased a decent vehicle long prior to losing a job, getting a divorce, having unexpected healthcare expenses that devastated their finances, or just generally falling on hard times. You also don’t ever want to borrow a friend or family member’s car if you DO sell yours to make ends meet, because if it is even slightly nice or of recent vintage, you will be judged as not being needy enough for assistance of any sort.

Think this is an exaggeration? Some Republicans are busily trying to make it a law that if you own a car of any description, you will be unable to receive SNAP benefits (that’s food for the poor, if you aren’t familiar with the term) until you sell that car. This plan is Rush Limbaugh-approved, so you know it is empathetic and fair and kind-hearted and rational. (Yeah…no.) So while you are struggling to find work, and being told that you need reliable transportation to be hired (try to find a decently compensated job that does not require employees to have their own transportation), and being scorned for being unemployed, Republicans want to take your personal transportation away (while blocking any public transportation-related programs, mind you) or deny you help with food. Nice people.

Yes, you must sell everything you own that is even remotely nice, you must dress nicely (but not TOO nicely) when you are out in public, and you need to feel like a complete and utter failure before seeking help. Never mind that it is nearly impossible to get by without a mobile phone or reliable transportation these days.

Hey, poor person; hey, you unemployed person: your phone is too nice and isn’t there public transportation you could be using instead? Of course, anyone who has ever had to rely on public transportation realizes that it is unreliable, often late, sometimes fails to arrive at all, is almost always dirty and smelly and unpleasant, and if you need to get to work or home from work using it, then you get to hang out in unsafe places (often in the dark, and rarely covered to protect you from rain or heat or wind) by yourself (enjoy your mugging).

Of course, if you do wind up sitting on a sidewalk with a cup, these same as#@&%es will walk past you like you are invisible or hiss “get a job” at you.

Also, if you are not white, these rules apply double to you. Because the majority of welfare recipients in the United States are white.

…Wait, what?

You heard me.





“According to the U.S. government, the majority of welfare recipients are white, live in the suburbs, have two kids, want to work, and stay on welfare an average of only two years.”



Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/01/your-lack-of-insight-and-compassion-make-you-ugly/#ixzz2Z1FYiwYJ
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 14, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Here is a much better reason than welfare recipients to lose faith in Amerika.



New Missouri Law Would Allow First Graders To Take NRA-Sponsored Gun Class
By Esther Yu-Hsi Lee on Jul 14, 2013 at 2:52 pm

First-graders may soon be able to enroll in a NRA sponsored gun class as a result of a public safety bill signed into law by Missouri Governor Jay Nixon (D) on Friday.
The measure requires school personnel to participate in at least eight hours of an “Active Shooter and Intruder Response Training” program conducted by law enforcement officials and allows schools to apply for financial grants for the NRA’s Eddie Eagle Gunsafe Program.
The NRA claims that the course, which features colorful cartoon character named Eddie Eagle, teaches children about gun safety. But research has failed to link the program to a reduction in children’s deaths from guns, with some studies showing that while “children could memorize Eddie’s simple advice about avoiding guns,” the instruction “went unheeded when children were put in real-life scenarios and asked to role-play a response.” Another report labeled Eddie Eagle “Joe Camel with feathers” and argued that the goal of the program was to recruit new NRA members.
The gun lobby itself has a long record of marketing guns to children and actively works to discredit groups like the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) that want to stop children from encountering guns in the first place. Missouri now joins North Carolina, Texas, and Virginia in providing an endorsement of the NRA program through state laws. Ohio was the first state to fund the Eddie Eagle program.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/14/2297771/missouri-first-graders-gun-safety-courses/




Hell why are they waiting so long? I am sure they believe they could train them inutero.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 14, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
want to find "the good" in the man with the badge and the guy whos swinging his dick around???

yes,
its absolutely property to slander you

and him
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 14, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Philo
Thanks those were a couple of good posts!
What is going on in this country? It's stranger than fiction.
It was also one of those southern states that indoctrinated the law to allow as young as 13 yr old girls to get an abortion WITHOUT their parents consent. Who votes for this sh#t?????
And 1st graders handling guns? My 1st grader can barely operate a bat.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
I always get a chuckle when thinking of 2nd amendment people...do they think a "well organized militia" can stand up to our military???

best to rethink that argument if you are a 2nd amendment fanatic...

I think it a better policy to discuss making progress for the MAJORITY of the people...


for those who don't understand who that is I will spell it out for you:

poor african, poor hispanic, poor white, poor asian...

these are the same people serving in the military no militia in the world can beat BTW...

let's get to that point...WHY are these people serving in the military and being PROMISED things they will never recieve???

Racism is alive and well in this country DESPITE the efforts of many people to squash it...poor people of all races need to UNITE and SQUASH those who are enslaving humanity of all colors and stripes...

It is those same people or their descendents or those who would have done the same thing given the chance we need to FIGHT against...

All white people did NOT own slaves a FEW (percentage wise) did but those FEW brainwashed the poor whites into thier brand of thinking...to make the poor whites FEEL superior to a group of people...F*#K THAT!!!

Reparations are in order for indigenous natives and african slave descendants FROM the slave owner plantation owners and corporations that we can trace slave ownership back to...not from the general taxpayer but the people who actually profited from their captivity...

We poor people of all races need to UNITE worldwide against the people who would enslave all of us and can't wait to BTW...in fact they are in the process of doing it NOW...unless you think $9 an hour for hard work is a living and fair wage to earn...yes it is in 3rd world countries without labor regulation and environmental protections but corporations are exploiting this labor for less than $9 a DAY...
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
such a shame that effort is being labeled as anti american and accepted in dialogue that way by "all" liberal sides these days
WBraun

climber
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
rSin

Take a vacation.

You talk too much.

Take a long vacation, and try and relax while you're there .......
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
i appreciate your forgiving me
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
I cannot lose faith in America. America is an Idea. A good idea who's time must and will come. This land and it's government is going backwards fast but the idea cannot go anywhere but forward.

Freedom and justice for all. No double jeopardy, innocent till proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Land of the free home of the BRAVE. Because allowing freedom requires knowing YER GUNNA DIE ..but risking that to LIVE.

Freedom to believe without persecution, freedom to vote for you representatives. (not currently available since we vote for corporate sponsored representatives).

Government of the people by the people for the people.

History ebbs and flows.. now is not this lands time.. but progress is occurring if one looks at the big picture.

The power of a good idea is unstoppable.





BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:51pm PT

.unless you think $9 an hour for hard work is a living and fair wage to earn..

Pardon me if I'm wrong. But I always thought that by raising the minimum always raises the price of everything! I watched it happen over and over since the min. wage was $3.50 an hr.
Sure $15.00 an hr today would be great! But tomorrow a bigmac would be 7.50.

Good post though!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
lol bliblocr..effect before cause is your error. You choose your belief then only see the evidence that fits it. Just like the shrub did with Iraq.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
thats a profound mistake on your part blue!

increasing the minimum wage ONLY increases the cost of a given product for those who are buying it

it only makes those who cant affort what they want pay its actual cost whereas before they were living on the welfare of getting this sh#t subsidized via the welfare route of the public paying the bills which accrued given the people manufatureing their bobbles wernt being paid for the harms acrued on the job
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 14, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
But I always thought that by raising the minimum always raises the price of everything!

wrong, Blu

works the other way, in that as the general cost of all retail prices rises then more pressure is put on congress to raise the minimum wage as a Cost of Living index relationship

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
If your company makes a product so crappily that it cannot afford to pay it's workers enough to live decently.. then that company should cease to exist. Because it is working against the public interest. Same as a terrorist or a criminal is working against the public interest.

If your nation is allowing imports from a place that uses a different monetary system (and not making the proper adjustment for the conversion) such that your own indigenous products cannot price themselves competitively then your government is not working for it's people.. they are working for someone else.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:52pm PT

If your nation is allowing imports from a place that uses a different monetary system

Didn't we the people vote for this? What was it called, NAFTA?

I still don't see how if everybody is making atleast fifteen an hr prices wouldn't rise?

Hell if ur right why not raise it to twenty five an hr. then everyone would be middleclass.

Seriously
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
I agree with climbski2 if your company cannot pay it's fair share of environmental regulations and fair labor costs it shouldn't be allowed to do sell it's product in the countries that do pay those costs...

we shouldn't be trying to go backwards to No regulations for the environment and the workers because of cost...

we should be moving forwards to make sure those costs reflect the true price of doing business...


...the wealthy lifestyle be DAMNED!!!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
it all started with the hamburger,
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jul 14, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Keep on keeping on Blue. I don't think I agree with you much, but I'm glad you fight the fight because I agree with the other side of the coin even less, though I started out 35 years ago firmly in that camp. I don't know what the answer is, but I still find some comfort in these words:

Shine, Republic

The quality of these trees, green height; of the sky,
shining, of water, a clear flow; of rock hardness
And reticence: each is noble in its quality. The love of
freedom has been the quality of Western man.

There is a stubborn torch that flames from Marathon to
Concord, its dangerous beauty binding three ages
Into one time: the waves of barbarism and civilization
have eclipsed but have never quenched it.

For the Greeks the love of beauty, for Rome of ruling;
for the present age the passionate love of discovery;
But in one noble passion we are one; and Washington,
Luther, Tacitus, Aeschylus, one kind of man.

And you, America, that passion made you. You were
not born to prosperity, you were born to love freedom.
You did not say” en masse,” you said “independence.”
But we cannot have all the luxuries and freedom also.

Freedom is poor and laborious; that torch is not safe but
hungry, and often requires blood for its fuel.
You will tame it against it burn too clearly, you will hood
it like a kept hawk, you will perch it on the wrist of Caesar.

But keep the traditions, conserve the forms, the observances,
keep the spot sore. Be great carve deep your heel-marks.
The states of the next age will no doubt remember you,
and edge their love of freedom with contempt of luxury.

Robinson Jeffers (1934)
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:21am PT
nothin like injustice to prod the cockraoches up and out as if they never get the chance to play
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 04:47am PT
Credit: philo
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:23am PT
Nice Philo!
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:37am PT
Nah, it's more fun to bash the poor and blame them for our woes.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:38am PT
you know that makes a mockery of what you believe and teach the children?
jghedge

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 07:59am PT

"I always get a chuckle when thinking of 2nd amendment people...do they think a "well organized militia" can stand up to our military???"


Even funnier, they try to claim that the Army won't engage fellow Americans who are merely exercising their 2nd amendments.

So they need the guns to defend themselves against an Army that won't attack them in the first place - about as well thought-out an argument as the rest of their gibberish.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:58am PT
Zimmerman found not guilty.
After some 20+ days of court testimonys jurors find him not guilty.
After hearing this verdict people are outraged and take to the streets
All over the US. Blocking traffic causing police to shut down hyways and streets.
Toting signs with the combined sentiment of NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!
But wasn't the justice process properly followed? Does the justice system
carry prejudice? What say you?

I wish some African-Americans would chime in..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:06am PT
With Racial Roles Reversed, Three Self-Defense Cases That Went The Other Way

By Annie-Rose Strasser on Jul 15, 2013 at 9:50 am

George Zimmerman was acquitted in the murder of Trayvon Martin over the weekend, successfully using a claim of self-defense to convince six jurors that he was right to shoot and kill the 17-year-old Martin. The case centered around the question of whether Martin was physically aggressive toward Zimmerman in any way — the defense claimed that the teenager bashed Zimmerman’s head into the concrete — or if Martin was simply a victim. Ultimately, the jury decided, the prosecutors could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin didn’t engage Zimmerman in a fight, prompting him to use deadly force in self-defense.
Self-defense cases are fairly common in the American justice system. And while in Zimmerman’s case, many feel that justice was left undone for the shooting victim — and that the boy’s race, black, and the man’s, white hispanic, were a deciding factor — the roles are often reversed; there have been notable cases in recent years where what seem to be reasonable self-defense claims by black defendants are dismissed by a jury:

Marissa Alexander:
In the middle of a domestic violence incident, believing that her husband was threatening her, Marissa Alexander fired a warning shot into the wall to ward him off. In court, Alexander tried to use a claim of self defense — specifically, Stand Your Ground, the same law that let Zimmerman walk free on the night he shot Martin before later being arrested. As ThinkProgress’s Nicole Flatow previously pointed out, “Alexander would not have needed a Stand Your Ground law to defend her action. While that law goes so far as to authorize unfettered deadly force in self-defense without a duty to retreat, Alexander used significantly lesser force that would fall under a typical self-defense claim.” Ultimately, though, it didn’t matter; her defense wasn’t as successful. Alexander, who had no prior record, was sentenced to 20 years in jail — a mandatory minimum for the crime.

John McNeil:
On one fateful night in December of 2005, a black businessman named John McNeil got a call from his son that someone was “lurking” around the backyard. That person turned out to be white 19-year old Brian Epp, a hired contractor for McNeil who had past disagreements with McNeil’s son. When McNeil got home, he told Epp, who was weilding a box cutter, to leave the property several times. After Epp repeatedly refused, McNeil fired a warning shot, which caused Epp to run. As witnesses attest, McNeil then shot Epp in self-defense, killing him. A court rejected McNeil’s self-defense claim, sentencing him to life in prison — but McNeil was lucky; his case drew a ton of media attention, and with it, calls from powerful politicians and the NAACP to reconsider the case. After six years in jail, McNeil’s charge was reduced to manslaughter and he was let free — with many caveats: He must serve out 13 years of probation, during which time he cannot leave the state of North Carolina, and he must pay $75 a month as part of his probation. Unlike Zimmerman, he will be forced to carry the charge permanently on his criminal record. And more than anything else, McNeil can’t get those lost years back; while he was sitting in prison, his mother and wife died.

John White:
The case of John White is similar to the Trayvon Martin/ George Zimmerman story, but with racial roles reversed. In 2006, black 54-year-old John White shot dead white 17-year-old Daniel Cicciaro after an altercation at White’s home. White reported that Cicciaro and several other white teens showed up at his door looking to beat up his son. White greeted the group of boys at his driveway, holding a pistol. He reported that Ciccairo “lunged” for the gun, and it accidentally discharged, striking the teenager. When the case went to trial, White characterized the group of white teenagers as a “lynch mob” and insisted he was only trying to defend his family. The jury — made up of 12 people, 11 white and one black — found him guilty of manslaughter. He served just five months in jail before his sentence was commuted by then-New York Gov. David Paterson (D).
Tags: George ZimmermanRaceTrayvon Martin

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/07/15/2297541/self-defense-zimmerman/
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:34am PT
Does the justice system carry prejudice?

Are you really that naive?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:42am PT
But wasn't the justice process properly followed?

Since when do 6 women represent a fair cross-section of the population?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:54am PT
Good philo
Seems like with the case of John White, and the other cases. The system that's in place
is good! It's the people that don't have faith in the system that blur the lines..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:59am PT

Since when do 6 women represent a fair cross-section of the population?

Don't the lawyers from both sides have to agree on juror selection?

And why only 6?
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